473,839 Members | 1,523 Online
Bytes | Software Development & Data Engineering Community
+ Post

Home Posts Topics Members FAQ

I've Had Enough

I've had enough of C#. I've had enough of using parentheses for every
'if' statement. I've had enough of having to mix assignment of return
value of methods with flow control, making writing code that's both
readable and consistent, impossible.

C# is hindered by its predecessors and the Microsoft marketing
department. If Anders had his way, this language would be a one where
readable code isn't a near impossibility for non-trivial code; but no,
Microsoft marketing and C++/Java got in his way. The evidence is
blatently apparent in the language.

Microsoft, the company where money comes before technology, has struck
again. The repercussions affect us all.
Nov 16 '05
123 4016
"Chris A. R." <so*****@hotmai l.com> wrote in
news:u9******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP10.phx.gbl:
It's hard to find anyone that knows how to write Threading code without
wrapping themselves in knots. Given that, I find the C/C++ programmers
are much more likely to have a clue on how to write working code in a
Threaded environment. I also find that most VB programmers don't
understand the windows messaging architecture, whereas most C/C++
programmers do understand.

Of course, there are dud C/C++ programmers, but understanding the
foundation of the windows architecture is important for complex
programs. So, as lead engineer and architect at the company I work for,
pointy haired boss and all, I prefer people with C/C++ experience.


Odd. I'd prefer people with .NET experience. You see, It's better
to know how .NET works, than to know how win32 works, as .NET does a lot
for you and sometimes differently than in win32 (i.e.: there is no
messageing architecture to post messages between threads, threads don't
have their own messagepump etc.

FB
--
Get LLBLGen Pro, the new O/R mapper for .NET: http://www.llblgen.com
My .NET Blog: http://weblogs.asp.net/fbouma
Microsoft C# MVP
Nov 16 '05 #81
"Daniel O'Connell [C# MVP]" wrote:

"Julie" <ju***@nospam.c om> wrote in message
news:40******** *******@nospam. com...
C# Learner wrote:

Julie wrote:

> I'll take the language any day. It is their sucky, buggy, deficient
> IDE that
> gets my goat, day after day.
>
> So far, their IDE can handle "hello world" class projects, but not much
> more...

The IDE seems pretty solid to me; but I guess it could be a case of
different machines, different setups, etc.

How about a deal: you take the language and I take the IDE ;-P


Consider yourself lucky. Any commercial-scope project is way outside the
bounds of the IDE.

I'm currently working on one solution composed of maybe 30-40 projects of
C#,
managed C++, and native C++, with multiple forms, controls, etc.

It is a battle to get through a day w/o numerous restarts due to the piece
getting hung up on itself. As we speak, the compiler can't build a
project
because somewhere else the IDE has a file open (in this case, a debugging
pdb
file). Closing all files, and even the project/solution doesn't solve the
problem, the only solution is to restart and rebuild.

Try closing the IDE and deleting the .suo file. This sounds like a known bug
that has been cropping up for quite some time(I seem to recall filing a bug
report myself), there is hope it will be fixed in whidbey, but I don't know
if there was any official word on that and considering how hard it is to
reproduce I couldn't test. Though I havn't run into it in about a year it
does happen and it will drive you nuts. It seems to crop up most commonly
with large C# or C++ projects and *may* be related to the size of an output
assembly. I imagine someone else here knows waht I'm talking about and
remembers more details that I do.


If this is a known problem, where is the patch? Not coming, have to wait until
whidbey, standard line from Microsoft.

Let's not forget that this is the 13th rev (or so) of the MS compiler suite.
Bugs like this are not to be expected in a product like this, especially at the
price that it is.
A *major* piece of crap, but what should I expect, MS is run by a bunch of
snot-nosed adolescents that think they know everything.

Not to sound harsh, but you pretty much sound like a know-it-all in all of
your posts. Considering the content of said posts I'd say you have a long
way to go before that attitude is anywhere near correct.


I'm hardly a know-it-all, but thanks for the comments. I've been programming
Windows since 3.0 -- I've seen how MS operates, and it is frustrating to try
and eek out a living w/ such shoddy tools and lackluster performance. I'm a
contract programmer, and I don't have the time each day to constantly fiddle w/
the fragility of the system, it costs me *big time*. 10+ years ago, Borland
gave MS some serious compiler competition (and had a far superior product), but
alas, those days are gone, so back to non-innovative buggy MS business as
usual.
Nov 16 '05 #82

"Julie" <ju***@nospam.c om> skrev i meddelandet
news:40******** *******@nospam. com...
"Daniel O'Connell [C# MVP]" wrote:

"Julie" <ju***@nospam.c om> wrote in message
news:40******** *******@nospam. com...
C# Learner wrote:
>
> Julie wrote:
>
> > I'll take the language any day. It is their sucky, buggy, deficient> > IDE that
> > gets my goat, day after day.
> >
> > So far, their IDE can handle "hello world" class projects, but not much> > more...
>
> The IDE seems pretty solid to me; but I guess it could be a case of
> different machines, different setups, etc.
>
> How about a deal: you take the language and I take the IDE ;-P

Consider yourself lucky. Any commercial-scope project is way outside the bounds of the IDE.

I'm currently working on one solution composed of maybe 30-40 projects of C#,
managed C++, and native C++, with multiple forms, controls, etc.

It is a battle to get through a day w/o numerous restarts due to the piece getting hung up on itself. As we speak, the compiler can't build a
project
because somewhere else the IDE has a file open (in this case, a debugging pdb
file). Closing all files, and even the project/solution doesn't solve the problem, the only solution is to restart and rebuild.
Try closing the IDE and deleting the .suo file. This sounds like a known bug
that has been cropping up for quite some time(I seem to recall filing a bug report myself), there is hope it will be fixed in whidbey, but I don't know if there was any official word on that and considering how hard it is to
reproduce I couldn't test. Though I havn't run into it in about a year it does happen and it will drive you nuts. It seems to crop up most commonly with large C# or C++ projects and *may* be related to the size of an output assembly. I imagine someone else here knows waht I'm talking about and
remembers more details that I do.


If this is a known problem, where is the patch? Not coming, have to wait

until whidbey, standard line from Microsoft.

Let's not forget that this is the 13th rev (or so) of the MS compiler suite. Bugs like this are not to be expected in a product like this, especially at the price that it is.
A *major* piece of crap, but what should I expect, MS is run by a bunch of snot-nosed adolescents that think they know everything. Not to sound harsh, but you pretty much sound like a know-it-all in all of your posts. Considering the content of said posts I'd say you have a long way to go before that attitude is anywhere near correct.


I'm hardly a know-it-all, but thanks for the comments. I've been

programming Windows since 3.0 -- I've seen how MS operates, and it is frustrating to try and eek out a living w/ such shoddy tools and lackluster performance. I'm a contract programmer, and I don't have the time each day to constantly fiddle w/ the fragility of the system, it costs me *big time*. 10+ years ago, Borland gave MS some serious compiler competition (and had a far superior product), but alas, those days are gone, so back to non-innovative buggy MS business as
usual.


So as a contract programmer you kind of have the option to decide which work
you take. If this is so bad, and to be expected of Microsoft then why not
change
your mo and move to java, linux, borland stuff etc? Or are you neglecting to
say
that even though you feel like this for the MS tools, they are still better
than the
others? Or what gives? Its like saying "I really want to loose weight,
honest *eats
a pound of sugar*" =)

//Andreas
Nov 16 '05 #83

"Julie" <ju***@nospam.c om> wrote in message
news:40******** *******@nospam. com...
Try closing the IDE and deleting the .suo file. This sounds like a known
bug
that has been cropping up for quite some time(I seem to recall filing a
bug
report myself), there is hope it will be fixed in whidbey, but I don't
know
if there was any official word on that and considering how hard it is to
reproduce I couldn't test. Though I havn't run into it in about a year it
does happen and it will drive you nuts. It seems to crop up most commonly
with large C# or C++ projects and *may* be related to the size of an
output
assembly. I imagine someone else here knows waht I'm talking about and
remembers more details that I do.
If this is a known problem, where is the patch? Not coming, have to wait
until
whidbey, standard line from Microsoft.

Let's not forget that this is the 13th rev (or so) of the MS compiler
suite.
Bugs like this are not to be expected in a product like this, especially
at the
price that it is.


As I said, its a rather complex one. I've yet to meet anyone who can
reproduce it at will. Sorry but a bug I've heard maybe 6 complaints about in
the last 2 years that would require a considerable amount of time to fix
isn't something that warrents being rushed to in my opinion. Especially when
virtually everyone who has had it managed to get around it by modifying
their project layout slightly. Its annoying but its not a show stopper. At
worst, get nant and build with that.
The new project system in whidbey will hopefully squash it, but I can't tell
you for sure. The bug is strange and transient, and its rather hard to
reproduce even when I have a project that exhibits in in some situations.
> A *major* piece of crap, but what should I expect, MS is run by a bunch
> of
> snot-nosed adolescents that think they know everything.

Not to sound harsh, but you pretty much sound like a know-it-all in all
of
your posts. Considering the content of said posts I'd say you have a long
way to go before that attitude is anywhere near correct.


I'm hardly a know-it-all, but thanks for the comments. I've been
programming
Windows since 3.0 -- I've seen how MS operates, and it is frustrating to
try
and eek out a living w/ such shoddy tools and lackluster performance. I'm
a
contract programmer, and I don't have the time each day to constantly
fiddle w/
the fragility of the system, it costs me *big time*. 10+ years ago,
Borland
gave MS some serious compiler competition (and had a far superior
product), but
alas, those days are gone, so back to non-innovative buggy MS business as
usual.


Frankly, I would suggest either finding another profession or another system
to work in\build with. I hear Delphi is nice, sharp develop is decent, and
borland C# builder isn't bad either.
Personally I rarely have problems to the point where I need to come on
newsgroups and be snotty about it. If you want help with something ask for
help, if you want to provide answers, provide correct, precise, and
non-predjudiced answers, but if you want to bitch about things(especial ly
everything except the C# langauge) there are plenty of newsgroups to suit
your needs, its really rather off focus here. I don't have much sympathy for
people who come here to whine, bitch, pass incorrect information, and ask
for help simultaneously.
I rather resent having to waste time reading these posts. This goes to you,
C# Learner, and anyone else here who is even peripherally focused on
complaining. I bothered to respond to you only because I could provide a
little insight into your problem, but you have to take my annoyance and
disdain along with it. I won't let petty whining stop me from providing any
answers I might be able to give, but I won't always do it silently.
Nov 16 '05 #84

"Andreas Håkansson" <andy.h (at) telia.com> wrote in message
news:eK******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP10.phx.gbl...

"Julie" <ju***@nospam.c om> skrev i meddelandet
news:40******** *******@nospam. com...
"Daniel O'Connell [C# MVP]" wrote:

"Julie" <ju***@nospam.c om> wrote in message
news:40******** *******@nospam. com...
> C# Learner wrote:
>>
>> Julie wrote:
>>
>> > I'll take the language any day. It is their sucky, buggy, deficient >> > IDE that
>> > gets my goat, day after day.
>> >
>> > So far, their IDE can handle "hello world" class projects, but not
much
>> > more...
>>
>> The IDE seems pretty solid to me; but I guess it could be a case of
>> different machines, different setups, etc.
>>
>> How about a deal: you take the language and I take the IDE ;-P
>
> Consider yourself lucky. Any commercial-scope project is way
outside
the > bounds of the IDE.
>
> I'm currently working on one solution composed of maybe 30-40
projects
of > C#,
> managed C++, and native C++, with multiple forms, controls, etc.
>
> It is a battle to get through a day w/o numerous restarts due to the piece > getting hung up on itself. As we speak, the compiler can't build a
> project
> because somewhere else the IDE has a file open (in this case, a debugging > pdb
> file). Closing all files, and even the project/solution doesn't
solve
the > problem, the only solution is to restart and rebuild.
>
Try closing the IDE and deleting the .suo file. This sounds like a
known
bug that has been cropping up for quite some time(I seem to recall filing
a
bug report myself), there is hope it will be fixed in whidbey, but I don't know if there was any official word on that and considering how hard it is
to reproduce I couldn't test. Though I havn't run into it in about a year it does happen and it will drive you nuts. It seems to crop up most commonly with large C# or C++ projects and *may* be related to the size of an output assembly. I imagine someone else here knows waht I'm talking about and
remembers more details that I do.
If this is a known problem, where is the patch? Not coming, have to wait until
whidbey, standard line from Microsoft.

Let's not forget that this is the 13th rev (or so) of the MS compiler suite.
Bugs like this are not to be expected in a product like this, especially

at the
price that it is.
> A *major* piece of crap, but what should I expect, MS is run by a

bunch of > snot-nosed adolescents that think they know everything.
Not to sound harsh, but you pretty much sound like a know-it-all in
all of your posts. Considering the content of said posts I'd say you have a long way to go before that attitude is anywhere near correct.
I'm hardly a know-it-all, but thanks for the comments. I've been

programming
Windows since 3.0 -- I've seen how MS operates, and it is frustrating to

try
and eek out a living w/ such shoddy tools and lackluster performance.

I'm a
contract programmer, and I don't have the time each day to constantly fiddle w/
the fragility of the system, it costs me *big time*. 10+ years ago,

Borland
gave MS some serious compiler competition (and had a far superior

product), but
alas, those days are gone, so back to non-innovative buggy MS business

as usual.


So as a contract programmer you kind of have the option to decide which

work you take. If this is so bad, and to be expected of Microsoft then why not
change
your mo and move to java, linux, borland stuff etc? Or are you neglecting to say
that even though you feel like this for the MS tools, they are still better than the
others? Or what gives? Its like saying "I really want to loose weight,
honest *eats
a pound of sugar*" =)

//Andreas


Probably because as a contractor they are at the mercy of the hosting
company. It is rare to come in and completely change a company's
environment, even if there are better choices as you mention. Usual mantra
as a contractor is "anything, anywhere, anytime" (that's what I used when I
did body-shop work). Best bet is to keep whatever they have and plug them
for lot's of overtime if it's buggy.

bob
Nov 16 '05 #85
It's hard to find anyone that knows how to write Threading code without
wrapping themselves in knots. Given that, I find the C/C++ programmers are
much more likely to have a clue on how to write working code in a Threaded
environment. I also find that most VB programmers don't understand the
windows messaging architecture, whereas most C/C++ programmers do
understand.

Of course, there are dud C/C++ programmers, but understanding the foundation
of the windows architecture is important for complex programs. So, as lead
engineer and architect at the company I work for, pointy haired boss and
all, I prefer people with C/C++ experience.

Chris A.R.

"microsoft.publ ic.dotnet.langu ages.csharp"
<an*******@disc ussions.microso ft.com> wrote in message
news:A3******** *************** ***********@mic rosoft.com...
I also disagree with the industry. Many places are going VB.NET because of > the number of VB and ASP developers they are retraining.


terrible. generally speaking, I'd have more faith in Java & C

developers than VB and ASP people. having experienced frustration of
working with these VB and ASP people.
Nov 16 '05 #86
Daniel O'Connell [C# MVP] wrote:

<snip>

If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.
Nov 16 '05 #87
Chris A. R. <so*****@hotmai l.com> wrote:
It's hard to find anyone that knows how to write Threading code without
wrapping themselves in knots.
True.
Given that, I find the C/C++ programmers are
much more likely to have a clue on how to write working code in a Threaded
environment.


I'm not sure I'd go along with that - they may know how to write
working code in C/C++ in a threaded environment, but that doesn't mean
they'll know the .NET threading model. That's why whenever the
singleton pattern is discussed, there's always someone throwing the
Double Checked Locking Algorithm into the mix, despite it
a) not working as usually presented
b) almost always being a worse approach than various others

:(

I'd like to think I understand threading "better than most" but it
still scares the hell out of me really...

--
Jon Skeet - <sk***@pobox.co m>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too
Nov 16 '05 #88
"Chris A. R." <so*****@hotmai l.com> wrote in
news:u9******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP10.phx.gbl:
It's hard to find anyone that knows how to write Threading code without
wrapping themselves in knots. Given that, I find the C/C++ programmers
are much more likely to have a clue on how to write working code in a
Threaded environment. I also find that most VB programmers don't
understand the windows messaging architecture, whereas most C/C++
programmers do understand.

Of course, there are dud C/C++ programmers, but understanding the
foundation of the windows architecture is important for complex
programs. So, as lead engineer and architect at the company I work for,
pointy haired boss and all, I prefer people with C/C++ experience.


Odd. I'd prefer people with .NET experience. You see, It's better
to know how .NET works, than to know how win32 works, as .NET does a lot
for you and sometimes differently than in win32 (i.e.: there is no
messageing architecture to post messages between threads, threads don't
have their own messagepump etc.

FB
--
Get LLBLGen Pro, the new O/R mapper for .NET: http://www.llblgen.com
My .NET Blog: http://weblogs.asp.net/fbouma
Microsoft C# MVP
Nov 16 '05 #89
Daniel O'Connell [C# MVP] wrote:
Not to sound harsh, but you pretty much sound like a know-it-all in all of
your posts. Considering the content of said posts I'd say you have a long
way to go before that attitude is anywhere near correct.


To be honest, I think that you make yourself out to be a _god_ in /your/
posts.

I remember the first time I ever replied to you in a thread. I think
the thread was on the subject of coding with Notepad when not using an
IDE. I posted a reply to you giving a joke about Notepad.

From your reply to my post, I got the impression that you were
thinking, "Who the hell are you to reply to me?!"

I get a similar impression to many of your posts.
Nov 16 '05 #90

This thread has been closed and replies have been disabled. Please start a new discussion.

Similar topics

23
264
by: C# Learner | last post by:
I've had enough of C#. I've had enough of using parentheses for every 'if' statement. I've had enough of having to mix assignment of return value of methods with flow control, making writing code that's both readable and consistent, impossible. C# is hindered by its predecessors and the Microsoft marketing department. If Anders had his way, this language would be a one where readable code isn't a near impossibility for non-trivial...
101
4010
by: C# Learner | last post by:
I've had enough of C#. I've had enough of using parentheses for every 'if' statement. I've had enough of having to mix assignment of return value of methods with flow control, making writing code that's both readable and consistent, impossible. C# is hindered by its predecessors and the Microsoft marketing department. If Anders had his way, this language would be a one where readable code isn't a near impossibility for non-trivial...
26
1125
by: C# Learner | last post by:
I've had enough of C#. I've had enough of using parentheses for every 'if' statement. I've had enough of having to mix assignment of return value of methods with flow control, making writing code that's both readable and consistent, impossible. C# is hindered by its predecessors and the Microsoft marketing department. If Anders had his way, this language would be a one where readable code isn't a near impossibility for non-trivial...
98
2428
by: C# Learner | last post by:
I've had enough of C#. I've had enough of using parentheses for every 'if' statement. I've had enough of having to mix assignment of return value of methods with flow control, making writing code that's both readable and consistent, impossible. C# is hindered by its predecessors and the Microsoft marketing department. If Anders had his way, this language would be a one where readable code isn't a near impossibility for non-trivial...
0
9855
marktang
by: marktang | last post by:
ONU (Optical Network Unit) is one of the key components for providing high-speed Internet services. Its primary function is to act as an endpoint device located at the user's premises. However, people are often confused as to whether an ONU can Work As a Router. In this blog post, we’ll explore What is ONU, What Is Router, ONU & Router’s main usage, and What is the difference between ONU and Router. Let’s take a closer look ! Part I. Meaning of...
0
9697
by: Hystou | last post by:
Most computers default to English, but sometimes we require a different language, especially when relocating. Forgot to request a specific language before your computer shipped? No problem! You can effortlessly switch the default language on Windows 10 without reinstalling. I'll walk you through it. First, let's disable language synchronization. With a Microsoft account, language settings sync across devices. To prevent any complications,...
0
10906
Oralloy
by: Oralloy | last post by:
Hello folks, I am unable to find appropriate documentation on the type promotion of bit-fields when using the generalised comparison operator "<=>". The problem is that using the GNU compilers, it seems that the internal comparison operator "<=>" tries to promote arguments from unsigned to signed. This is as boiled down as I can make it. Here is my compilation command: g++-12 -std=c++20 -Wnarrowing bit_field.cpp Here is the code in...
0
10585
jinu1996
by: jinu1996 | last post by:
In today's digital age, having a compelling online presence is paramount for businesses aiming to thrive in a competitive landscape. At the heart of this digital strategy lies an intricately woven tapestry of website design and digital marketing. It's not merely about having a website; it's about crafting an immersive digital experience that captivates audiences and drives business growth. The Art of Business Website Design Your website is...
0
9426
agi2029
by: agi2029 | last post by:
Let's talk about the concept of autonomous AI software engineers and no-code agents. These AIs are designed to manage the entire lifecycle of a software development project—planning, coding, testing, and deployment—without human intervention. Imagine an AI that can take a project description, break it down, write the code, debug it, and then launch it, all on its own.... Now, this would greatly impact the work of software developers. The idea...
1
7828
isladogs
by: isladogs | last post by:
The next Access Europe User Group meeting will be on Wednesday 1 May 2024 starting at 18:00 UK time (6PM UTC+1) and finishing by 19:30 (7.30PM). In this session, we are pleased to welcome a new presenter, Adolph Dupré who will be discussing some powerful techniques for using class modules. He will explain when you may want to use classes instead of User Defined Types (UDT). For example, to manage the data in unbound forms. Adolph will...
0
7017
by: conductexam | last post by:
I have .net C# application in which I am extracting data from word file and save it in database particularly. To store word all data as it is I am converting the whole word file firstly in HTML and then checking html paragraph one by one. At the time of converting from word file to html my equations which are in the word document file was convert into image. Globals.ThisAddIn.Application.ActiveDocument.Select();...
0
5866
by: adsilva | last post by:
A Windows Forms form does not have the event Unload, like VB6. What one acts like?
1
4482
by: 6302768590 | last post by:
Hai team i want code for transfer the data from one system to another through IP address by using C# our system has to for every 5mins then we have to update the data what the data is updated we have to send another system

By using Bytes.com and it's services, you agree to our Privacy Policy and Terms of Use.

To disable or enable advertisements and analytics tracking please visit the manage ads & tracking page.