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I've Had Enough

I've had enough of C#. I've had enough of using parentheses for every
'if' statement. I've had enough of having to mix assignment of return
value of methods with flow control, making writing code that's both
readable and consistent, impossible.

C# is hindered by its predecessors and the Microsoft marketing
department. If Anders had his way, this language would be a one where
readable code isn't a near impossibility for non-trivial code; but no,
Microsoft marketing and C++/Java got in his way. The evidence is
blatently apparent in the language.

Microsoft, the company where money comes before technology, has struck
again. The repercussions affect us all.
Nov 16 '05
123 4023
C# Learner <cs****@learner .here> wrote:
Not to sound harsh, but you pretty much sound like a know-it-all in all of
your posts. Considering the content of said posts I'd say you have a long
way to go before that attitude is anywhere near correct.


To be honest, I think that you make yourself out to be a _god_ in /your/
posts.

I remember the first time I ever replied to you in a thread. I think
the thread was on the subject of coding with Notepad when not using an
IDE. I posted a reply to you giving a joke about Notepad.


The only thread I can see on groups.google.c om where you posted and
there was anything about Notepad, Daniel didn't post at all. Were you
thinking of William Stacey, perhaps?

--
Jon Skeet - <sk***@pobox.co m>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too
Nov 16 '05 #91
Jon Skeet [C# MVP] wrote:
C# Learner <cs****@learner .here> wrote:
Not to sound harsh, but you pretty much sound like a know-it-all in all of
your posts. Considering the content of said posts I'd say you have a long
way to go before that attitude is anywhere near correct.


To be honest, I think that you make yourself out to be a _god_ in /your/
posts.

I remember the first time I ever replied to you in a thread. I think
the thread was on the subject of coding with Notepad when not using an
IDE. I posted a reply to you giving a joke about Notepad.


The only thread I can see on groups.google.c om where you posted and
there was anything about Notepad, Daniel didn't post at all. Were you
thinking of William Stacey, perhaps?


You're right -- I made a mistake here, confusing Daniel with William.

My stated general feeling about Daniel's posts still remains, though.
Nov 16 '05 #92

"C# Learner" <cs****@learner .here> wrote in message
news:uQ******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP09.phx.gbl...
Daniel O'Connell [C# MVP] wrote:
Not to sound harsh, but you pretty much sound like a know-it-all in all
of your posts. Considering the content of said posts I'd say you have a
long way to go before that attitude is anywhere near correct.
To be honest, I think that you make yourself out to be a _god_ in /your/
posts.


Now now, I'm a jerk, not a god, ;).
I remember the first time I ever replied to you in a thread. I think the
thread was on the subject of coding with Notepad when not using an IDE. I
posted a reply to you giving a joke about Notepad.

From your reply to my post, I got the impression that you were thinking,
"Who the hell are you to reply to me?!"

I get a similar impression to many of your posts.


Your first reply to me, as best I can tell, was on the subject of naming
conventions. I argued that forcing all developers to use one single
convention was impossible while you felt it should be done. I don't see
where I came off as egotistical there however. Indeed I can only find 3
references to notepad in any of my posts, you were involved with none.

Now, maybe I am arrogant. It really doesn't matter to me much. I'm here to
help when I can, learn when I can't, and participate in the rare interesting
discussion where there isn't an answer. I don't think I'm particularly
egotistical, but if you feel my posts are, then you are free to ignore them.

Also, in general I prefer responses to silence. An extra post doesn't take
up much time to read, as long as its somewhat on subject. Generally the only
time I'll lambaste a reply is when its purpose is entirely to 1) enrage, 2)
bitch, or 3) tell me I'm wrong because the person doesn't want my answer to
be right. (I will often reply sharply to someone who is intentionally
spreading mis-information, either by willful ignorance or by malicious
intent, but that isn't strictly applied to replies to my posts).
Nov 16 '05 #93
"Daniel O'Connell [C# MVP]" wrote:

"Julie" <ju***@nospam.c om> wrote in message
news:40******** *******@nospam. com...
C# Learner wrote:

Julie wrote:

> I'll take the language any day. It is their sucky, buggy, deficient
> IDE that
> gets my goat, day after day.
>
> So far, their IDE can handle "hello world" class projects, but not much
> more...

The IDE seems pretty solid to me; but I guess it could be a case of
different machines, different setups, etc.

How about a deal: you take the language and I take the IDE ;-P


Consider yourself lucky. Any commercial-scope project is way outside the
bounds of the IDE.

I'm currently working on one solution composed of maybe 30-40 projects of
C#,
managed C++, and native C++, with multiple forms, controls, etc.

It is a battle to get through a day w/o numerous restarts due to the piece
getting hung up on itself. As we speak, the compiler can't build a
project
because somewhere else the IDE has a file open (in this case, a debugging
pdb
file). Closing all files, and even the project/solution doesn't solve the
problem, the only solution is to restart and rebuild.

Try closing the IDE and deleting the .suo file. This sounds like a known bug
that has been cropping up for quite some time(I seem to recall filing a bug
report myself), there is hope it will be fixed in whidbey, but I don't know
if there was any official word on that and considering how hard it is to
reproduce I couldn't test. Though I havn't run into it in about a year it
does happen and it will drive you nuts. It seems to crop up most commonly
with large C# or C++ projects and *may* be related to the size of an output
assembly. I imagine someone else here knows waht I'm talking about and
remembers more details that I do.


If this is a known problem, where is the patch? Not coming, have to wait until
whidbey, standard line from Microsoft.

Let's not forget that this is the 13th rev (or so) of the MS compiler suite.
Bugs like this are not to be expected in a product like this, especially at the
price that it is.
A *major* piece of crap, but what should I expect, MS is run by a bunch of
snot-nosed adolescents that think they know everything.

Not to sound harsh, but you pretty much sound like a know-it-all in all of
your posts. Considering the content of said posts I'd say you have a long
way to go before that attitude is anywhere near correct.


I'm hardly a know-it-all, but thanks for the comments. I've been programming
Windows since 3.0 -- I've seen how MS operates, and it is frustrating to try
and eek out a living w/ such shoddy tools and lackluster performance. I'm a
contract programmer, and I don't have the time each day to constantly fiddle w/
the fragility of the system, it costs me *big time*. 10+ years ago, Borland
gave MS some serious compiler competition (and had a far superior product), but
alas, those days are gone, so back to non-innovative buggy MS business as
usual.
Nov 16 '05 #94
I think you will find in this newsgroup, people who are very passionate
about the technology they work in and down right top-notch. It really is a
no bullshit approach. If you are wrong, expect to get chewed thoroughly.
There seldom will be a nice way to spin it. It may not be politically
correct but I believe if you leave your feelings at the door, you can
definitely learn in here.

At least you will learn to post technically accurate stuff or research
issues thoroughly before you post. I am very guilty of jumping technically
inaccurate posters (something i learned in here btw). And I've been jumped
more times than i care to remember. It's rarely personal. It's tough love.
You grow to be technically correct as a result. And that makes you a better
professional.

--
Regards,
Alvin Bruney [ASP.NET MVP]
Got tidbits? Get it here...
http://tinyurl.com/27cok
"C# Learner" <cs****@learner .here> wrote in message
news:uQ******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP09.phx.gbl...
Daniel O'Connell [C# MVP] wrote:
Not to sound harsh, but you pretty much sound like a know-it-all in all of your posts. Considering the content of said posts I'd say you have a long way to go before that attitude is anywhere near correct.


To be honest, I think that you make yourself out to be a _god_ in /your/
posts.

I remember the first time I ever replied to you in a thread. I think
the thread was on the subject of coding with Notepad when not using an
IDE. I posted a reply to you giving a joke about Notepad.

From your reply to my post, I got the impression that you were
thinking, "Who the hell are you to reply to me?!"

I get a similar impression to many of your posts.

Nov 16 '05 #95
Frans & Jon,

Perhaps I should have clarified... of course I prefer people with .Net
experience. I was referring to a previous posting talking about VB versus
C/C++ programmers (I left out Java programmers, since they may have a clue
about OOP, but usually not about the Windows architecture).

So, the comparison I was making was in pre-.Net, windows directed languages
only. While there is no message pump for threads, it is important to
understand how threading works on the GUI components and how Invoke,
BeginInvoke, and EndInvoke actually do work with the GUI's message
architecture in these situations.

Continuing on that concept, there are often times when knowing the
underlying architecture can make a programmers ability to program .Net
programs a lot better.

Chris A.R.

"Frans Bouma [C# MVP]" <pe************ ******@xs4all.n l> wrote in message
news:Xn******** *************** *********@207.4 6.248.16...
"Chris A. R." <so*****@hotmai l.com> wrote in
news:u9******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP10.phx.gbl:
It's hard to find anyone that knows how to write Threading code without
wrapping themselves in knots. Given that, I find the C/C++ programmers
are much more likely to have a clue on how to write working code in a
Threaded environment. I also find that most VB programmers don't
understand the windows messaging architecture, whereas most C/C++
programmers do understand.

Of course, there are dud C/C++ programmers, but understanding the
foundation of the windows architecture is important for complex
programs. So, as lead engineer and architect at the company I work for,
pointy haired boss and all, I prefer people with C/C++ experience.


Odd. I'd prefer people with .NET experience. You see, It's better
to know how .NET works, than to know how win32 works, as .NET does a lot
for you and sometimes differently than in win32 (i.e.: there is no
messageing architecture to post messages between threads, threads don't
have their own messagepump etc.

FB
--
Get LLBLGen Pro, the new O/R mapper for .NET: http://www.llblgen.com
My .NET Blog: http://weblogs.asp.net/fbouma
Microsoft C# MVP

Nov 16 '05 #96
Daniel O'Connell [C# MVP] wrote:
"C# Learner" <cs****@learner .here> wrote in message
news:uQ******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP09.phx.gbl...
Daniel O'Connell [C# MVP] wrote:
Not to sound harsh, but you pretty much sound like a know-it-all in all
of your posts. Considering the content of said posts I'd say you have a
long way to go before that attitude is anywhere near correct.
To be honest, I think that you make yourself out to be a _god_ in /your/
posts.


Now now, I'm a jerk, not a god, ;).
I remember the first time I ever replied to you in a thread. I think the
thread was on the subject of coding with Notepad when not using an IDE. I
posted a reply to you giving a joke about Notepad.

From your reply to my post, I got the impression that you were thinking,
"Who the hell are you to reply to me?!"

I get a similar impression to many of your posts.


Your first reply to me, as best I can tell, was on the subject of naming
conventions. I argued that forcing all developers to use one single
convention was impossible while you felt it should be done. I don't see
where I came off as egotistical there however. Indeed I can only find 3
references to notepad in any of my posts, you were involved with none.


I was wrong, and confused you with someone else; sorry.

I think you're right that the first thread where we communicated was the
thread on naming conventions. In it, you were not unfriendly at all.
Now, maybe I am arrogant. It really doesn't matter to me much. I'm here to
help when I can, learn when I can't, and participate in the rare interesting
discussion where there isn't an answer. I don't think I'm particularly
egotistical, but if you feel my posts are, then you are free to ignore them.

Also, in general I prefer responses to silence. An extra post doesn't take
up much time to read, as long as its somewhat on subject. Generally the only
time I'll lambaste a reply is when its purpose is entirely to 1) enrage, 2)
bitch, or 3) tell me I'm wrong because the person doesn't want my answer to
be right. (I will often reply sharply to someone who is intentionally
spreading mis-information, either by willful ignorance or by malicious
intent, but that isn't strictly applied to replies to my posts).


I am pleasantly surprised that your reply (quoted here) isn't a flame.
Nov 16 '05 #97

"C# Learner" <cs****@learner .here> wrote in message
news:O8******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP12.phx.gbl...
Daniel O'Connell [C# MVP] wrote:
"C# Learner" <cs****@learner .here> wrote in message
news:uQ******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP09.phx.gbl...
Daniel O'Connell [C# MVP] wrote:

Not to sound harsh, but you pretty much sound like a know-it-all in all
of your posts. Considering the content of said posts I'd say you have a
long way to go before that attitude is anywhere near correct.

To be honest, I think that you make yourself out to be a _god_ in /your/
posts.


Now now, I'm a jerk, not a god, ;).
I remember the first time I ever replied to you in a thread. I think the
thread was on the subject of coding with Notepad when not using an IDE.
I posted a reply to you giving a joke about Notepad.

From your reply to my post, I got the impression that you were thinking,
"Who the hell are you to reply to me?!"

I get a similar impression to many of your posts.


Your first reply to me, as best I can tell, was on the subject of naming
conventions. I argued that forcing all developers to use one single
convention was impossible while you felt it should be done. I don't see
where I came off as egotistical there however. Indeed I can only find 3
references to notepad in any of my posts, you were involved with none.


I was wrong, and confused you with someone else; sorry.

I think you're right that the first thread where we communicated was the
thread on naming conventions. In it, you were not unfriendly at all.
Now, maybe I am arrogant. It really doesn't matter to me much. I'm here
to help when I can, learn when I can't, and participate in the rare
interesting discussion where there isn't an answer. I don't think I'm
particularly egotistical, but if you feel my posts are, then you are free
to ignore them.

Also, in general I prefer responses to silence. An extra post doesn't
take up much time to read, as long as its somewhat on subject. Generally
the only time I'll lambaste a reply is when its purpose is entirely to 1)
enrage, 2) bitch, or 3) tell me I'm wrong because the person doesn't want
my answer to be right. (I will often reply sharply to someone who is
intentionally spreading mis-information, either by willful ignorance or
by malicious intent, but that isn't strictly applied to replies to my
posts).


I am pleasantly surprised that your reply (quoted here) isn't a flame.

There is no reason to flame you. However I don't think you have much
standing to be rude yourself.
Nov 16 '05 #98
Daniel O'Connell [C# MVP] wrote:
[...]
I am pleasantly surprised that your reply (quoted here) isn't a flame.


There is no reason to flame you. However I don't think you have much
standing to be rude yourself.


I wasn't trying to be rude; I was just letting you know that I was
pleasantly surprised in not getting flamed.
Nov 16 '05 #99

"Julie" <ju***@nospam.c om> skrev i meddelandet
news:40******** *******@nospam. com...
"Daniel O'Connell [C# MVP]" wrote:

"Julie" <ju***@nospam.c om> wrote in message
news:40******** *******@nospam. com...
C# Learner wrote:
>
> Julie wrote:
>
> > I'll take the language any day. It is their sucky, buggy, deficient> > IDE that
> > gets my goat, day after day.
> >
> > So far, their IDE can handle "hello world" class projects, but not much> > more...
>
> The IDE seems pretty solid to me; but I guess it could be a case of
> different machines, different setups, etc.
>
> How about a deal: you take the language and I take the IDE ;-P

Consider yourself lucky. Any commercial-scope project is way outside the bounds of the IDE.

I'm currently working on one solution composed of maybe 30-40 projects of C#,
managed C++, and native C++, with multiple forms, controls, etc.

It is a battle to get through a day w/o numerous restarts due to the piece getting hung up on itself. As we speak, the compiler can't build a
project
because somewhere else the IDE has a file open (in this case, a debugging pdb
file). Closing all files, and even the project/solution doesn't solve the problem, the only solution is to restart and rebuild.
Try closing the IDE and deleting the .suo file. This sounds like a known bug
that has been cropping up for quite some time(I seem to recall filing a bug report myself), there is hope it will be fixed in whidbey, but I don't know if there was any official word on that and considering how hard it is to
reproduce I couldn't test. Though I havn't run into it in about a year it does happen and it will drive you nuts. It seems to crop up most commonly with large C# or C++ projects and *may* be related to the size of an output assembly. I imagine someone else here knows waht I'm talking about and
remembers more details that I do.


If this is a known problem, where is the patch? Not coming, have to wait

until whidbey, standard line from Microsoft.

Let's not forget that this is the 13th rev (or so) of the MS compiler suite. Bugs like this are not to be expected in a product like this, especially at the price that it is.
A *major* piece of crap, but what should I expect, MS is run by a bunch of snot-nosed adolescents that think they know everything. Not to sound harsh, but you pretty much sound like a know-it-all in all of your posts. Considering the content of said posts I'd say you have a long way to go before that attitude is anywhere near correct.


I'm hardly a know-it-all, but thanks for the comments. I've been

programming Windows since 3.0 -- I've seen how MS operates, and it is frustrating to try and eek out a living w/ such shoddy tools and lackluster performance. I'm a contract programmer, and I don't have the time each day to constantly fiddle w/ the fragility of the system, it costs me *big time*. 10+ years ago, Borland gave MS some serious compiler competition (and had a far superior product), but alas, those days are gone, so back to non-innovative buggy MS business as
usual.


So as a contract programmer you kind of have the option to decide which work
you take. If this is so bad, and to be expected of Microsoft then why not
change
your mo and move to java, linux, borland stuff etc? Or are you neglecting to
say
that even though you feel like this for the MS tools, they are still better
than the
others? Or what gives? Its like saying "I really want to loose weight,
honest *eats
a pound of sugar*" =)

//Andreas
Nov 16 '05 #100

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