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How to find reliable offshore (India) programming shop? (this is not aspam)

This message isn't spam or an advertisement or trolling.

I'm considering farming some of my application development to offshore shops
(I'm in the US). I have absolutely *no* experience w/ this, and therefore I'm
looking for comments, suggestions, etc. on how to go about this w/o getting
screwed.

My current application development is primarily database-driven apps in C++/C#,
so I'm looking for programmers w/ up-to-date skills.

Anyone have any comments/suggestions?

Thanks
--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@inf owest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl >>
Nov 15 '05
90 5332
Bret Pehrson <br**@infowest. com> wrote:
You are a classic troll. Go away, and when you have something productive to
offer, let me hear it.
Give me a break. If you can't handle reality, perhaps you'd better
hide in your bedroom.

You're the troll here, Bret. You complain about *multiple* domestic
contractors not being able to create a product based on your specs.

Rather than blame yourself, you blame them.

And your solution is to ship the work overseas? Do you really expect
us to believe you're not a complete idiot?
Try re-reading my posts on the subject -- I'm looking for comments and
suggestions regarding offshore programming. I didn't say I was shipping the
work overseas. It sounds like your comments about me apply more to you.


Your reasons for considering offshore programming are pathetic. You're
an idiot. Do you have any employees named Dilbert?
Nov 15 '05 #71
Bret Pehrson <br**@infowest. com> wrote:
Beagle -- come on, get with the program. I haven't made any sweeping
generalizations , merely stated MY experiences w/ the subject.

I'm not trying to bolster my case, as you put it. Merely asking for comments
on the subject of offshore programming. Some of your other responses have been
helpful, although I don't know if they are substantiated.

You really need to reevaluate your 'idiot' position. I'm not attacking you,
contract programmers, executives, indians, or anything else for that matter --
SIMPLY ASKING FOR COMMENTS ON THE SUBJECT.


It's a hot button topic for me. I know too many friends and collegues
who are losing their houses over this offshoring "megatrend" . The
executive team keeps getting their millions, the programmers who are
lucky enough to keep their jobs have to integrate the disaster that
is "developed" offshore, and the folks that lose their job can give up
any hope they'll be able to afford to send their kids to college.
Nov 15 '05 #72
> Give me a break. If you can't handle reality, perhaps you'd better
hide in your bedroom.
On the contrary, I'm trying to accept the reality of offshore programming
resources, even though it is in direct competition to me as a contract
programmer.
Rather than blame yourself, you blame them.
I haven't blamed anyone -- I accept full responsibility for the results of any
product development, both done by me, or by subcontractors.

I will (continue) to evaluate my ability to communicate and effectively create
specifications, however that isn't what I originally requested in this thread.
I'm simply looking for comments and suggestions regarding offshore programming
shops.
And your solution is to ship the work overseas?
My solution is NOT to ship the work overseas, but to explore alternatives,
regardless of my performance, or the performance of domestic (or any other)
contract programmers.
Do you really expect
us to believe you're not a complete idiot?
I'm not trying to convince anyone of my idiocy, or lack thereof.

Thanks for your comments.

be****@dogs-like-spam.com wrote:
Bret Pehrson <br**@infowest. com> wrote:
You are a classic troll. Go away, and when you have something productive to
offer, let me hear it.


Give me a break. If you can't handle reality, perhaps you'd better
hide in your bedroom.

You're the troll here, Bret. You complain about *multiple* domestic
contractors not being able to create a product based on your specs.

Rather than blame yourself, you blame them.

And your solution is to ship the work overseas? Do you really expect
us to believe you're not a complete idiot?
Try re-reading my posts on the subject -- I'm looking for comments and
suggestions regarding offshore programming. I didn't say I was shipping the
work overseas. It sounds like your comments about me apply more to you.


Your reasons for considering offshore programming are pathetic. You're
an idiot. Do you have any employees named Dilbert?


--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@inf owest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl >>
Nov 15 '05 #73
Finally.

I appreciate your honesty -- yes, this has been a very hot topic for me as
well.

I'm a contract programmer and run a small contract programming business, not an
executive, and no, I don't make millions (not even close).

More and more of my large corporate clients are opting for offshore resources,
or H1B visa holders. I'm definitely feeling the squeeze, regardless of the
quality of my code or how well I keep to estimates or budgets. When the CFO
axe comes a swinging, it only seems to consider the bottom line.

So, in order to stay viable, I'm evaluating other options. Not that it was the
intent of my original post to bash US programmers, but I'm just trying to get a
realistic feel for offshore programming shops. The media can't be trusted on
this topic, so I was looking for some honest actual experiences.

I'll post one follow-up to my original post that will summarize what I've
found, and then I'm done w/ this topic.

be****@dogs-like-spam.com wrote:

Bret Pehrson <br**@infowest. com> wrote:
Beagle -- come on, get with the program. I haven't made any sweeping
generalizations , merely stated MY experiences w/ the subject.

I'm not trying to bolster my case, as you put it. Merely asking for comments
on the subject of offshore programming. Some of your other responses have been
helpful, although I don't know if they are substantiated.

You really need to reevaluate your 'idiot' position. I'm not attacking you,
contract programmers, executives, indians, or anything else for that matter --
SIMPLY ASKING FOR COMMENTS ON THE SUBJECT.


It's a hot button topic for me. I know too many friends and collegues
who are losing their houses over this offshoring "megatrend" . The
executive team keeps getting their millions, the programmers who are
lucky enough to keep their jobs have to integrate the disaster that
is "developed" offshore, and the folks that lose their job can give up
any hope they'll be able to afford to send their kids to college.


--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@inf owest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl >>
Nov 15 '05 #74
Here is the summary of what I've learned. Some responses were e-mailed, so
I'll just summarize w/o names:

- Cheap offshore programming is mostly a myth. It may look cheap on paper,
but the net result may be just as much as domestic programming.

- The project may be completed as spec'd, but the code itself may be 'a mess'
or otherwise unmaintainable. Others reported that the code was 'fine'.

- It was suggested to go through a domestic agency, instead of dealing
directly w/ the offshore shop. This introduces an additional level for
potential indirection as well as increased cost.

- You *must* have your requirements, specs, and related details crystal clear
beforehand, or else you will get something that is probably not what you want.

- Communication (because of language and/or time barriers) can be a minor to
serious impediment.

- It can be difficult to manage offsite programmers (domestic or overseas).

- There may be a high turn-over rate of programmers in the offshore shop,
leading to more potential problems.

- You must have realistic and definite milestones, and ensure that they are
met according to your (specified) expectation.

- Offshore programming is best for large, well defined projects (someone gave
me an example of porting an existing app from one platform to another), and is
very bad for small and/or changing spec projects.

- You must plan on daily (constant) communication with the offshore
resources. Failure to do so can quickly lead to interpretive deviations from
the spec or intended goal.

Thanks to all who responded.

Bret Pehrson wrote:

This message isn't spam or an advertisement or trolling.

I'm considering farming some of my application development to offshore shops
(I'm in the US). I have absolutely *no* experience w/ this, and therefore I'm
looking for comments, suggestions, etc. on how to go about this w/o getting
screwed.

My current application development is primarily database-driven apps in C++/C#,
so I'm looking for programmers w/ up-to-date skills.

Anyone have any comments/suggestions?

Thanks

--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@inf owest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl >>


--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@inf owest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl >>
Nov 15 '05 #75

"William Ryan eMVP" <do********@com cast.nospam.net > wrote in message
news:uc******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP12.phx.gbl...
I prefer Bud Light and Guiness,


YIKES! -- is it legal to mix those two???
Nov 15 '05 #76
On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 11:15:00 -0500, "William Ryan eMVP"
<do********@com cast.nospam.net > wrote:
I prefer Bud Light and Guiness, but if you program as well as you rebut
arguments, your viewpoints don't surprise me.


<snip>

The callousness you show is underserving of rebuttal.

Oz

Nov 15 '05 #77
Bret Pehrson wrote:

Oh really? I've paid a lot of money for high-priced consultants, and ended up
w/ poor quality results.

And that, my friend, is why I'm here. I'm NOT getting what I paid for.


Have you considered Central and East European market? It's somewhat
costly but a lot trained/experienced than Indian.

Nov 15 '05 #78
And we follow formal methods more. Better working hours and human rights
unlike the US of A.SS

"Mihajlo Cvetanovic" <ma*@RnEeMtOsVe Et.co.yu> wrote in message
news:40******** ******@RnEeMtOs VeEt.co.yu...
Bret Pehrson wrote:

Oh really? I've paid a lot of money for high-priced consultants, and ended up w/ poor quality results.

And that, my friend, is why I'm here. I'm NOT getting what I paid for.


Have you considered Central and East European market? It's somewhat
costly but a lot trained/experienced than Indian.

Nov 15 '05 #79

"Roy Fine" <rl****@twt.obf uscate.net> wrote in message
news:up******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP12.phx.gbl...

"William Ryan eMVP" <do********@com cast.nospam.net > wrote in message
news:uc******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP12.phx.gbl...
I prefer Bud Light and Guiness,


YIKES! -- is it legal to mix those two???


I should have been more clear, mixing those two together would be quite,
yucky.
Nov 15 '05 #80

This thread has been closed and replies have been disabled. Please start a new discussion.

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