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How to find reliable offshore (India) programming shop? (this is not aspam)

This message isn't spam or an advertisement or trolling.

I'm considering farming some of my application development to offshore shops
(I'm in the US). I have absolutely *no* experience w/ this, and therefore I'm
looking for comments, suggestions, etc. on how to go about this w/o getting
screwed.

My current application development is primarily database-driven apps in C++/C#,
so I'm looking for programmers w/ up-to-date skills.

Anyone have any comments/suggestions?

Thanks
--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@inf owest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl >>
Nov 15 '05
90 5481
> Before you do this consider your project requirements and your project
planning. Are your specs nailed down or do you anticipate mid development
changes, etc? If so, these may be handled better by a local firm.
Specs are nailed down, and well defined. Local firms have failed, regardless.
J wrote:
On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 12:36:06 -0800, Bret Pehrson wrote:
This message isn't spam or an advertisement or trolling.

I'm considering farming some of my application development to offshore shops
(I'm in the US). I have absolutely *no* experience w/ this, and therefore I'm
looking for comments, suggestions, etc. on how to go about this w/o getting
screwed.

My current application development is primarily database-driven apps in C++/C#,
so I'm looking for programmers w/ up-to-date skills.

Anyone have any comments/suggestions?

Thanks


Before you do this consider your project requirements and your project
planning. Are your specs nailed down or do you anticipate mid development
changes, etc? If so, these may be handled better by a local firm.


--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@inf owest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl >>
Nov 15 '05 #51
Thanks for your comments. Finally some useful information in this
ever-deviating thread.
My advice would be to use a third party out-sourcing firm and forget the
word 'cheap'. Be prepared to compete for these off-shore developers.
This is the information I'm looking for, based on your actual experiences.
Thank you for taking the time to read my original post.

Carl Fenley wrote:
I actually have a small bit of experience with this. I have worked for two
corporations that outsourced some of their development work to their own
offices in New Delhi, India.

In both cases, the quality of work from the Indian employees was fine. In
both cases, the cost of compensation packages to the Indian employees was
considerably less than their US resident counterparts. In both cases, there
was higher-than-expected turnover rate amongst the Indian developers as they
were snatched up at higher wages by a continuing influx of competing firms.

Also, I watched a manager at one of the companies struggle with managing the
work of someone she would never meet. I was not directly involved in her
project, but the general consensus was the Indian employee was incredibly
under-utilized. She just wasn't prepared to manage that kind of work or
that kind of employee, even within the framework of the same corporation.

My advice would be to use a third party out-sourcing firm and forget the
word 'cheap'. Be prepared to compete for these off-shore developers.

- carl

"Bret Pehrson" <br**@infowest. com> wrote in message
news:40******** *******@infowes t.com...
This message isn't spam or an advertisement or trolling.

I'm considering farming some of my application development to offshore

shops
(I'm in the US). I have absolutely *no* experience w/ this, and therefore

I'm
looking for comments, suggestions, etc. on how to go about this w/o

getting
screwed.

My current application development is primarily database-driven apps in

C++/C#,
so I'm looking for programmers w/ up-to-date skills.

Anyone have any comments/suggestions?

Thanks
--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@inf owest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl >>


--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@inf owest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl >>
Nov 15 '05 #52
Honestly, this thread has been very enlightening for me.

Out of the flurry of responses, only a handful actually *addressed* my original
question. The rest of the responses had little or nothing to do w/ my query.

And this is *exactly* what I have found w/ contract programmers. They don't
read. I spend an inordinate amount of time defining the requirements, spec,
and associated details, meetings, phone calls, e-mails, etc. only to have the
programmer NOT READ what is spec'd.

Maybe this is the key to weeding out the detritus: ask a controversial question
and see how they answer.

If anyone has additional comments, suggestions, or experiences w/ offshore
programming shops, I'd be interested to hear it. Again, thanks to all those
who responded on topic.

Bret Pehrson wrote:

This message isn't spam or an advertisement or trolling.

I'm considering farming some of my application development to offshore shops
(I'm in the US). I have absolutely *no* experience w/ this, and therefore I'm
looking for comments, suggestions, etc. on how to go about this w/o getting
screwed.

My current application development is primarily database-driven apps in C++/C#,
so I'm looking for programmers w/ up-to-date skills.

Anyone have any comments/suggestions?

Thanks

--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@inf owest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl >>


--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@inf owest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl >>
Nov 15 '05 #53
"Bret Pehrson" <br**@infowest. com> wrote in message
news:40******** *******@infowes t.com...
Honestly, this thread has been very enlightening for me. Out of the flurry of responses, only a handful actually *addressed* my original question. The rest of the responses had little or nothing to do w/ my query.
And this is *exactly* what I have found w/ contract programmers.
They don't read.


Hehe. You may have a point there. On the other hand, this is an open forum
and we basically discuss what seems interesting, not necessarily only what
the original poster asked for.

The general idea about outsoucing to India in my area is that you get
axactly what you asked for, hence the need to spec well. If you know that
well what you want and it may be the thing for you.

Tell us next year how it turned out, okay? :-)

Martin.
Nov 15 '05 #54
In microsoft.publi c.dotnet.langua ges.csharp Bret Pehrson <br**@infowest. com> wrote:
Oh really? I've paid a lot of money for high-priced consultants, and ended up
w/ poor quality results.

And that, my friend, is why I'm here. I'm NOT getting what I paid for.


So rather than fix the REAL problem (your lack of ability to identify
competent talent), you'll just ship the work overseas?

Idiot.

Due to the demand for software developers in India, every Tom, Dick,
and Harry is getting into it for the money. Indian universities are
graduating totally unqualified people to meet demand.

Software development is HARD. I'll laugh my ass off when all these
idiot executives who are outsourcing and offshoring end up with a crap
product whose maintenance costs skyrocket into the heavens because the
code is so poorly constructed.
Nov 15 '05 #55
In microsoft.publi c.dotnet.langua ges.csharp Bret Pehrson <br**@infowest. com> wrote:
Before you do this consider your project requirements and your project
planning. Are your specs nailed down or do you anticipate mid development
changes, etc? If so, these may be handled better by a local firm.


Specs are nailed down, and well defined. Local firms have failed, regardless.


Ah, the famous last words of incompetent management everywhere.
Nov 15 '05 #56
"Bret Pehrson" <br**@infowest. com> wrote in message
news:40******** *******@infowes t.com...
Cheap is not my goal (my goal in this thread was to find out experiences w/ offshore programming shops.

**This is why I'm finding that some US contractors are failing, they DON'T READ THE SPEC** which is also apparent here in this thread.


First we're not just here to answer your question and then be quite until
you come back with another question. Elaborating and touching other
questions does not necessarily mean we did not understand or could not be
bothered. The trait to provide what is asked is a two-edged sword., it can
be a good thing but it can also be a terrible thing. It means that if you
overlooked something and no one tells you or takes the trouble to work
around your mistake you will end up with very expensive junk. It is not
right for a developer to just do things different without any feedback but
it is equally bad to blindly follow specs. Most systems would simply be
impossible to build or would just not work if specs were followed
scrupulously. So there is bound to be some diversion fron the original specs
and it is your job as the producer to be on top of that proces to make sure
the inevitable diversions will not harm the solution.

Judging by the frustrated tone of your message you seem to have trouble
communicating with the people you hire. Moreover, you don't seem to consider
it necessary interact (after all, you gave them specs) , you don't want to
deal with them. When the specs are ready, you want to toss 'm over and the
project will be done as far as you're concerned. Now that is asking for
trouble. But hey, perhaps tossing the specs to the other side of the globe
will just fix it.

Martin.
Nov 15 '05 #57
In microsoft.publi c.dotnet.langua ges.csharp Bret Pehrson <br**@infowest. com> wrote:
And this is *exactly* what I have found w/ contract programmers. They don't
read.
What a lovely sweeping generalization. It does a lot to bolster your
case.

Idiot.
I spend an inordinate amount of time defining the requirements, spec,
and associated details, meetings, phone calls, e-mails, etc. only to have the
programmer NOT READ what is spec'd.
And despite your personal perfection, those nasty contractors keep
messing it up for you! Poor baby.
If anyone has additional comments, suggestions, or experiences w/ offshore
programming shops, I'd be interested to hear it. Again, thanks to all those
who responded on topic.


Go ahead and offshore. You'll get exactly what you deserve.

Don't worry, when it doesn't work out, you can blame them instead of
yourself again.

Idiot.
Nov 15 '05 #58
You can kinda sorta tell this outsourcing is a sore spot right?
tehehe

--
Regards,
Alvin Bruney [ASP.NET MVP]
Got tidbits? Get it here...
http://tinyurl.com/3he3b
"Bret Pehrson" <br**@infowest. com> wrote in message
news:40******** *******@infowes t.com...
Thanks for your comments. Finally some useful information in this
ever-deviating thread.
My advice would be to use a third party out-sourcing firm and forget the
word 'cheap'. Be prepared to compete for these off-shore developers.
This is the information I'm looking for, based on your actual experiences.
Thank you for taking the time to read my original post.

Carl Fenley wrote:

I actually have a small bit of experience with this. I have worked for two corporations that outsourced some of their development work to their own
offices in New Delhi, India.

In both cases, the quality of work from the Indian employees was fine. In both cases, the cost of compensation packages to the Indian employees was considerably less than their US resident counterparts. In both cases, there was higher-than-expected turnover rate amongst the Indian developers as they were snatched up at higher wages by a continuing influx of competing firms.
Also, I watched a manager at one of the companies struggle with managing the work of someone she would never meet. I was not directly involved in her project, but the general consensus was the Indian employee was incredibly under-utilized. She just wasn't prepared to manage that kind of work or
that kind of employee, even within the framework of the same corporation.
My advice would be to use a third party out-sourcing firm and forget the
word 'cheap'. Be prepared to compete for these off-shore developers.

- carl

"Bret Pehrson" <br**@infowest. com> wrote in message
news:40******** *******@infowes t.com...
This message isn't spam or an advertisement or trolling.

I'm considering farming some of my application development to offshore

shops
(I'm in the US). I have absolutely *no* experience w/ this, and
therefore I'm
looking for comments, suggestions, etc. on how to go about this w/o

getting
screwed.

My current application development is primarily database-driven apps
in C++/C#,
so I'm looking for programmers w/ up-to-date skills.

Anyone have any comments/suggestions?

Thanks
--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@inf owest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence

<<38952rglkwdsl >>
--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@inf owest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl >>

Nov 15 '05 #59
My take on the whole issue?

You can't stop a train. Outsourcing is coming. Jump in, or get out the way.
Economics will eventually win. The price is unbeatable, there are a few
kinks to be worked out here and there which eventually will be worked out.
But that's what they are, kinks not showstoppers.

Eventually, the price of developing software will fall out of the sky and so
will programmer salaries. It's happening already. It's about competition,
and we aren't reacting to competition nicely by name calling.

Most IT companies will employ a small staff of developers for maintenance,
the main project will be outsourced. I've seen the future. Time to get into
consulting.
--
Regards,
Alvin Bruney [ASP.NET MVP]
Got tidbits? Get it here...
http://tinyurl.com/3he3b
"Martin Maat" <du***@somewher e.nl> wrote in message
news:10******** *****@corp.supe rnews.com...
"Bret Pehrson" <br**@infowest. com> wrote in message
news:40******** *******@infowes t.com...
Honestly, this thread has been very enlightening for me.

Out of the flurry of responses, only a handful actually *addressed* my

original
question. The rest of the responses had little or nothing to do w/ my

query.

And this is *exactly* what I have found w/ contract programmers.
They don't read.


Hehe. You may have a point there. On the other hand, this is an open forum
and we basically discuss what seems interesting, not necessarily only what
the original poster asked for.

The general idea about outsoucing to India in my area is that you get
axactly what you asked for, hence the need to spec well. If you know that
well what you want and it may be the thing for you.

Tell us next year how it turned out, okay? :-)

Martin.

Nov 15 '05 #60

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