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How to find reliable offshore (India) programming shop? (this is not aspam)

This message isn't spam or an advertisement or trolling.

I'm considering farming some of my application development to offshore shops
(I'm in the US). I have absolutely *no* experience w/ this, and therefore I'm
looking for comments, suggestions, etc. on how to go about this w/o getting
screwed.

My current application development is primarily database-driven apps in C++/C#,
so I'm looking for programmers w/ up-to-date skills.

Anyone have any comments/suggestions?

Thanks
--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@inf owest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl >>
Nov 15 '05
90 5425
"Michael A. Covington" <lo**@www.covin gtoninnovations .com.for.addres s> wrote
in message news:uM******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP09.phx.gbl...
I think that would be actionable as false advertising under U.S. law.
Probably under Dutch law too.
I doubt it. It works like this:

These intermediaries are looking for business so they call some of the big
service companies, the employers of the people that are put to work at the
sites of companies that actually have the work. The conversation would go
like

intermediary> "Could you be interested in some really good and skilled
people for your business?"

service company> "Sure, we are always interested to see top-notch people
that can grow with us, enhancing our business".

intermediary> "How about me putting some forward to you? And you paying me
when they appear to be a good match?"

service company> "You can send us the c.v.'s. If we do need anyone we will
contact you and you can send them over. Then if we hire
one you will get your share. We need people in these area's: <list of skills
and traits>."
This would technically not be a false advertisement. The trained reader will
spot these kind of ads and assess then for what they are worth. It takes
some experience though. They will never state "this is not for real at the
moment, you will end up in a database and oh, there are about a dozen other
agencies doing the same but hey, in a couple of months, your c.v. may pop up
on some query and who knows". They will consciously suggest that this job is
hot, lots of times it will even say "urgently needed" and terms alike.

Another thing that may give the wrong impression is that when some company
actually does put out the word that they have a real vacancy, there will be
10 intermediary agencies jumping on it, all advertising on the same forum.
This will be very clear of course, the job describtion will be more specific
than that of the phony ones and several almost identical ads will appear on
the same forum at the same time. Most of the time the company itself also
has an ad out somewhere that you will be able to find or you will recognize
the company by the job description and you can address them directly.
You state that there are jobs out here, sure there are jobs out there. But
most of them are never advertised for, they are filled in silently without
any intermediary or ad. In order to be there in time you need a good network
and not many people have that. So you cannot blame someone without a job for
not finding the vacancy he would have been perfect for. Okay, that wasn't
exactly what you were doing but it is the message that is absorbed by those
who have been looking to no avail for a long time.

Martin.

"Martin Maat" <du***@somewher e.nl> wrote in message
news:10******** *****@corp.supe rnews.com...
"William Ryan eMVP" <bi**@NoSp4m.de vbuzz.com> wrote in message
news:eH******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP11.phx.gbl...
But I stand by the fact that the contention that there aren't any jobs
here for talented developers is a Myth. A simply trip to Monster.
com or dice will prove me right.


I cannot speak for the United States, I live in The Netherlands, but I
do have one thing to say about job advertisements for very interesting
programming jobs on monsterboard and the like. Those sites sell
advertising space by numbers and by contract, most of it is purchased
by intermediary agencies. If there are no jobs, those agencies will make
some up because they payed for the space. They will put in 10 phony
jobs a day if they have to. Over here we have companies like Huxley
and Computer Futures that are notorious for that. The casual visitor of
the site will think "Wow, that's a lot of jobs! And reaaly cool ones too!" while they merely are exposure and a way to collect personal data for
better times. You may fit perfectly, if you call it appears they are not
the least bit interested, will not be able to tell you anything about the job and all you get is a bored "you can send us your c.v.".

Martin.

Nov 15 '05 #41
Yes I have experience managing US consultants (both local and non-local). My
specs are *very* well defined beforehand.

Derrick wrote:

Do you have experience with managing US consultants developing for you,
offsite? If not, I would strongly suggest outsourcing to consultants in
another zip before offshoring to another country half a world away. You'll
rapidly determine if you have the product requirement gathering process in
place to make offshoring a "success oriented" endeavor.

"Bret Pehrson" <br**@infowest. com> wrote in message
news:40******** *******@infowes t.com...
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention:

Reasonable cost (read: cheap!)

Bret Pehrson wrote:

This message isn't spam or an advertisement or trolling.

I'm considering farming some of my application development to offshore shops (I'm in the US). I have absolutely *no* experience w/ this, and therefore I'm looking for comments, suggestions, etc. on how to go about this w/o getting screwed.

My current application development is primarily database-driven apps in C++/C#, so I'm looking for programmers w/ up-to-date skills.

Anyone have any comments/suggestions?

Thanks

--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@inf owest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl >>


--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@inf owest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl >>


--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@inf owest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl >>
Nov 15 '05 #42
Well, I've been looking for well qualified US programmers, and so far have lost
a lot of my money on babysitting...

And yes, candidates/consultants were *thoroughly* evaluated prior to any work
starting.
Besides, if cheap is your goal, don't
be suprised at what you end up with.
Cheap is not my goal (my goal in this thread was to find out experiences w/
offshore programming shops.

**This is why I'm finding that some US contractors are failing, they DON'T READ
THE SPEC** which is also apparent here in this thread.
james wrote:
And do you REALLY want to trust your database app. development to someone in
a country half a world away? There are a ton of well qualified programmers
here in the good old USA that need work
and given the chance could do that job much better than someone so far away
and out of your complete oversight. Besides, if cheap is your goal, don't
be suprised at what you end up with.
just my .02
james

"Derrick" <de*********@ex cite.com> wrote in message
news:#0******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP09.phx.gbl...
Do you have experience with managing US consultants developing for you,
offsite? If not, I would strongly suggest outsourcing to consultants in
another zip before offshoring to another country half a world away.

You'll
rapidly determine if you have the product requirement gathering process in
place to make offshoring a "success oriented" endeavor.

"Bret Pehrson" <br**@infowest. com> wrote in message
news:40******** *******@infowes t.com...
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention:

Reasonable cost (read: cheap!)

Bret Pehrson wrote:
>
> This message isn't spam or an advertisement or trolling.
>
> I'm considering farming some of my application development to offshore

shops
> (I'm in the US). I have absolutely *no* experience w/ this, and

therefore I'm
> looking for comments, suggestions, etc. on how to go about this w/o

getting
> screwed.
>
> My current application development is primarily database-driven apps in
C++/C#,
> so I'm looking for programmers w/ up-to-date skills.
>
> Anyone have any comments/suggestions?
>
> Thanks
>
> --
> Bret Pehrson
> mailto:br**@inf owest.com
> NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence

<<38952rglkwdsl >>
--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@inf owest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl >>



--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@inf owest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl >>
Nov 15 '05 #43
> Amen to that. One of my favorite sayings is "You get what you pay for". I
didn't make it up or anything, but it is so true.
Oh really? I've paid a lot of money for high-priced consultants, and ended up
w/ poor quality results.

And that, my friend, is why I'm here. I'm NOT getting what I paid for.

Trevor wrote:
"james" <jjames700ReMoV eMe at earthlink dot net> wrote in message
news:OK******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP11.phx.gbl...
And do you REALLY want to trust your database app. development to someone

in
a country half a world away? There are a ton of well qualified

programmers
here in the good old USA that need work
and given the chance could do that job much better than someone so far

away
and out of your complete oversight. Besides, if cheap is your goal, don't
be suprised at what you end up with.
just my .02
james


Amen to that. One of my favorite sayings is "You get what you pay for". I
didn't make it up or anything, but it is so true.


--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@inf owest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl >>
Nov 15 '05 #44
I prefer Bud Light and Guiness, but if you program as well as you rebut
arguments, your viewpoints don't surprise me.
"ozbear" <oz*****@yahoo. com> wrote in message
news:4031ddba.4 67597765@news-server...
On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 18:37:11 -0500, "William Ryan eMVP" <
<snip>
That's all my original point was, it wasn't to disparage American workers.But I stand by the fact that the contention that there aren't any jobs herefor talented developers is a Myth. A simply trip to Monster.com or dice
will prove me right. And if we, who live in the richest country on earthwith all of our educational resources can't compete with countries like
India, that says much more about us then them. And If I lose my job
tomorrow, I will still stand by this statement.


<snip>
Have another glass of Chardonay.

Oz

Nov 15 '05 #45
Bret:

Scroll down to the original posts and see how ridiculous this whole thing
got. Basically it's turned into a bunch of capitalism and India
bashing...I'm with you on this one!
"Bret Pehrson" <br**@infowest. com> wrote in message
news:40******** ******@infowest .com...
Amen to that. One of my favorite sayings is "You get what you pay for". I didn't make it up or anything, but it is so true.
Oh really? I've paid a lot of money for high-priced consultants, and

ended up w/ poor quality results.

And that, my friend, is why I'm here. I'm NOT getting what I paid for.

Trevor wrote:

"james" <jjames700ReMoV eMe at earthlink dot net> wrote in message
news:OK******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP11.phx.gbl...
And do you REALLY want to trust your database app. development to someone
in
a country half a world away? There are a ton of well qualified

programmers
here in the good old USA that need work
and given the chance could do that job much better than someone so far

away
and out of your complete oversight. Besides, if cheap is your goal,
don't be suprised at what you end up with.
just my .02
james


Amen to that. One of my favorite sayings is "You get what you pay for".

I didn't make it up or anything, but it is so true.


--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@inf owest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl >>

Nov 15 '05 #46
FINALLY a valid reply to my post!

William Ryan eMVP wrote:

You've got to be careful with any outsourcing but there are some really top
notch people in India and if you do your homework, you can get some superb
work done very reasonably. You can also get ripped off, but regrettably
that's not something limited to foreign markets.

I'd first talk to Mahesh or one of the guys at www.csharpcorner (link to
outsourcing is here http://www.c-sharpcorner.com/Services/Outsourcing.asp).
Mahesh is as good as they get and although I haven't done business with him,
I'd have absolutely no reservation whatsoever in doing so.

On a side note, Paul D. Sherriff wrote a short but good article on
outsourcing work and it's relevant to both home and abroad.
http://www.pdsa.com/asp/News/NewsletterView.asp?ID=60

I'd caution you on something though....just because someone is expensive,
doesn't mean you are getting what you are paying for, in many instances it's
not the case. However, if you put 'cheap' as the first criteria, you are
setting yourself up to be played by someone that knows all they have to do
is offer you a price you like...once you obligate with them, you are on the
hook and 'cheap' can quickly become unaffordable.

First I'd define what I was really willing to spend, then make sure that
you have an enforceable agreement as to what is going to be done and when,
and for how much. Just because you have a contract, doesn't mean you have
actual recourse...here or abroad, and I'd really keep that in mind with 'one
man shops' or anyone that can't show you a ton of references. People that
have a lot of references typically invested a lot in their reputations, so
they aren't likely to piss it all away for a few dollars (although it does
happen). Also, check the references....i f you see only companies that you
can't find anythign out about them..that's not a good sign.

The bottom line with anyone is make sure you check them out extensively, and
remember that Cheap is determined by TOTAL Cost, not just what they agree to
charge up front. If they do shoddy work, support won't be cheap by any
means...and that's usually where things get ugly if you aren't careful.

HTH,

Bill
"Bret Pehrson" <br**@infowest. com> wrote in message
news:40******** *******@infowes t.com...
This message isn't spam or an advertisement or trolling.

I'm considering farming some of my application development to offshore

shops
(I'm in the US). I have absolutely *no* experience w/ this, and therefore

I'm
looking for comments, suggestions, etc. on how to go about this w/o

getting
screwed.

My current application development is primarily database-driven apps in

C++/C#,
so I'm looking for programmers w/ up-to-date skills.

Anyone have any comments/suggestions?

Thanks
--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@inf owest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl >>


--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@inf owest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl >>
Nov 15 '05 #47
I asked *everybody*, and so far, out of the 50+ responses, I've only
seen/received 2 valid comments on the subject.

gabriel wrote:

Bret Pehrson wrote:
I'm considering farming some of my application development to offshore
shops (I'm in the US). I have absolutely *no* experience w/ this, and
therefore I'm looking for comments, suggestions, etc. on how to go
about this w/o getting screwed.


Yeh, right... Ask the people loosing their jobs to help you with this...
LOL!

DUH!!!

--
gabriel


--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@inf owest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl >>
Nov 15 '05 #48
Thanks for the link.

Do you have any experiences w/ this service?

As I said in my original post, I'm looking specifically for comments.

I'm looking for someone that can get the job done on time and on budget.
Period.

"Bob Powell [MVP]" wrote:

Sign up for rent-a-coder. You'll get bids from programmers all over and both
they and you will be protected.

Sign up here--> http://tinyurl.com/2k7ql

If you want cheap, I wont even dream about offering you my services.

--
Bob Powell [MVP]
C#, System.Drawing

Answer those GDI+ questions with the GDI+ FAQ
http://www.bobpowell.net/gdiplus_faq.htm

Read my Blog at http://bobpowelldotnet.blogspot.com

"Bret Pehrson" <br**@infowest. com> wrote in message
news:40******** *******@infowes t.com...
This message isn't spam or an advertisement or trolling.

I'm considering farming some of my application development to offshore

shops
(I'm in the US). I have absolutely *no* experience w/ this, and therefore

I'm
looking for comments, suggestions, etc. on how to go about this w/o

getting
screwed.

My current application development is primarily database-driven apps in

C++/C#,
so I'm looking for programmers w/ up-to-date skills.

Anyone have any comments/suggestions?

Thanks
--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@inf owest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl >>


--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@inf owest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl >>
Nov 15 '05 #49
Again, do you have any comments or experiences w/ elance?

"Carl Daniel [VC++ MVP]" wrote:

Bob Powell [MVP] wrote:
Sign up for rent-a-coder. You'll get bids from programmers all over
and both they and you will be protected.

Sign up here--> http://tinyurl.com/2k7ql


Or eLance - www.elance.com

-cd


--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@inf owest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl >>
Nov 15 '05 #50

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