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How to find reliable offshore (India) programming shop? (this is not aspam)

This message isn't spam or an advertisement or trolling.

I'm considering farming some of my application development to offshore shops
(I'm in the US). I have absolutely *no* experience w/ this, and therefore I'm
looking for comments, suggestions, etc. on how to go about this w/o getting
screwed.

My current application development is primarily database-driven apps in C++/C#,
so I'm looking for programmers w/ up-to-date skills.

Anyone have any comments/suggestions?

Thanks
--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@inf owest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl >>
Nov 15 '05
90 5480
On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 08:58:37 -0500, "Edward Diener"
<ed******@tropi csoft.com> wrote:
William Ryan eMVP wrote:
Depends on what you call an overstatement. We advertised for someone
with just one job in particular where we wanted 2 years VB
development, 2 Years SQL and Or Oracle and familiarity with Crystal
Reports. Of the 55 resumes we took, every one of the people claimed
they had this experience.

They all talked a great game except when it came to the technical
part. Then the whole sob story about how they were displaced after
911, knew Cobol and AS400 and a 'little vb' came into play. Asked
simple questions like "what's faster, early or late binding" only the
guy that we hired (who was right out of college could answer it)
correctly. Everyone else either guessed wrong, or wavered back and
forth and just took a guess. We asked sooo many utterly simple
questions and each were met with ..."Well, it's been a while since I
had vb at school, but I was really good at Cobol and I can be really
great a VB.NET" Then there were a bunch that claimed they new C++.
At least 20 that I can think of who professed to know C++ and have
expereience with it, couldn't tell me what was contained in a .h file
versus .cpp file. They coudln't tell you what IDE They used. They
couldn't tell you the difference between a struct and an enum. On
the Sql Part,most coudln't tell you who E.F. Codd was, what a
redundancy was, a functional dependency and many other basic
questions. Not a big deal for college freshmen, but for people
claiming to have 2 years experience with SQL? And then when asked
what tools they used in SQL Server, they couldn't answer it. Most
didn't know what Query Analyzer, Enterprise Manage or SQL Plus
was...and for working 2 years with ORacle or SQL Server, this is
plain and simple BS.

Then we ran an ad for a VB.NET developer with at least 1 year
expereience in VB.NET or C#, and 3 years with COM. Every resume had
this on there. Of the first 10 applicants we got, not one could even
tell us what COM stood for. Ok, maybe they didn't know acronyms. So
we had some really really complex questions like what is the
difference between a reference and a value type? No one knew it. For
1 year with VB.NET or C#, that's hard to believe. Asked if they could
name three objects in ADO.NET , only two could name anything...and
they could only name the dataadapter or dataset. What namespaces do
you know the best..."Well, I only worked with Windows Forms" was an
all too typical answer.


Perhaps the problem is your questions. Some of your questions are nonsense
( who E.F. Codd is has nothing to do with using SQL effectively, knowing
what COM stands for has nothing to do with using it, remembering SQL Server
tool names has little to do with programming modules using SQL Server ),
while many are relevant and are a test of knowledge ( every C++ programmer
should know what a struct or enum is, and the difference between a header
and cpp file, every .NET programmer should know the difference between a
reference and value type ). Some are borderline ( is it really a test of SQL
programming to know the terms "functional dependency" and even the term
"redundancy " may mean different things to different people, is it really
necessary to remember the exact names of classes, not objects as you write
above, in ADO .NET, or any other API ).

I think the real problem is the emphasis place on bits and pieces of
knowledge as a measure of programming skills. Do you ever try to have a
discussion of technical knowledge in a core area in which you are looking to
see if the interviewee knows about it, rather than ask random questions
which you deem important ?

Here is a good example of irrelevancy ? You wrote above "Then there were a
bunch that claimed they new C++." Should I decide that anyone who doesn't
know the difference between "new and "knew" couldn't possibly be literate
enough to work for my company ? Anyone can play the game by which decisions
about ability are based on some idea of which facts are important to know
and which aren't.

Nowadays the requirements for a programming job are ridiculous: must have 3
years of X, must have 4 years of Y, must have 6 years of Z, must have worked
with A, B, and C in an enterprise environment for 2 and a half years, must
know I, J, and K thoroughly and have worked 2 years implementing I and J on
K with L as a possible alternative etc. etc., that to even get one's resume
noticed if one "knows" two or three of the main areas mentioned, people lie
pretty blatantly about their experience. Can you blame them ?

Some people have worked with technologies in the past which they could
easily pick up again if they were offered a job which supposedly needed
knowledge in that technology, but they can't have worked with everything
mentioned in most ads at the exact moment in which the interview takes
place. So they don't remember some particularity which the interviewer
considers important to know to get a job. Perhaps the problem is the
overemphasis on things that are irrelevant for that particular job, and not
enough relevance on core issues which the interviewee must know to do the
job.

I am not saying that an interviewee must not know core issues, and be able
to respond in kind. But if your questions, some totally relevant while
others have little to do with real programming knowledge in the areas cited,
are any indication of the questions asked which are deemed "important" , no
wonder so many interviewees fail.

It has become a demeaning process for many programmers to be look for a job
and be interviewed. Despite twenty four years of experience, I have taken
tests in which I consistently scored in the 90-100% range, I have been asked
questions time and time again which I have been glad to answer, I have been
told to build a portfolio, get this or that certification, change my resume
in this or that way. Yet if I do manage to get the rare interview, after
weeks or months sometimes of phone calls and pre-interviewing screening, and
endless false promises and manipulations, and I do fairly well answering
questions and showing my knowledge and willingness to take on whatever the
job requires ( work at night, work on the weekends, travel 25-50% of the
time, answer customer support questions, etc. etc. ) my chances remain very
low and inevitably someone else is chosen.

It is always wonderful, when one is looking for a job in a recession, to
hear others tell about how anyone with knowledge and experience should be
working, because they are. The reality is far different and more gruesome
than you can possibly know. Despite my own sufferings on the job market, I
wouldn't wish the situation on you. I do hear what you are saying about
interviewees not knowing basic things about the areas in which they are
looking for work, but you do really need to take into account that when one
is not able to find work, and yet one knows that he or she is talented
enough to do many jobs, there inevitably will occur people applying for
positions in which they do not really know all the areas which are
supposedly required.

Edward,
Thank you for a breath of fresh air in this discussion. While I am
not in your uneviable position of looking for work, your points are
valid.

There -are- plenty of talented people who could do the job quite
well but may interview poorly because the relevancy of a question
is, well, just not relevant to doing the job (even if the interviewer
understood it, which many times is not the case).

And the problem with outsourcing to overseas is that ultimately
you just cannot compete with someone willing to work for U.S.
$10,000/year, or even if that is not a factor, I wouldn't want
to relocate to New Jersey just to take a job that was perfect in
most other respects.

I like your attitude and while I am not in a position at present
to hire you, when I am you have a job.

It will be even more refreshing when some of these Chardonnay-
sipping you-can-get-a-job-if-you-want types have the shoe on
their other foot, assuming that they can afford shoes.

Oz
Nov 15 '05 #31
and out of your complete oversight. Besides, if cheap is your goal, don't
be suprised at what you end up with.
just my .02
james

Amen to that. One of my favorite sayings is "You get what you pay for". I
didn't make it up or anything, but it is so true.


Linux, gcc, mozilla etc... some good counter examples there.

--
sashan
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~sgov008/

Nov 15 '05 #32
i sum it up to the times. it's pretty desperate out there. some folk just
want a paycheck and will do or say anything. if you haven't been out there,
you don't know. take it from me, it's ruff out there. you cannot blame these
people. screen as best you can but try not to make fun of the answers
because they come from people desperate to earn some kind of income.

--
Regards,
Alvin Bruney [ASP.NET MVP]
Got tidbits? Get it here...
http://tinyurl.com/3he3b
"ozbear" <oz*****@yahoo. com> wrote in message
news:40307acf.3 76739171@news-server...
On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 08:58:37 -0500, "Edward Diener"
<ed******@tropi csoft.com> wrote:
William Ryan eMVP wrote:
Depends on what you call an overstatement. We advertised for someone
with just one job in particular where we wanted 2 years VB
development, 2 Years SQL and Or Oracle and familiarity with Crystal
Reports. Of the 55 resumes we took, every one of the people claimed
they had this experience.

They all talked a great game except when it came to the technical
part. Then the whole sob story about how they were displaced after
911, knew Cobol and AS400 and a 'little vb' came into play. Asked
simple questions like "what's faster, early or late binding" only the
guy that we hired (who was right out of college could answer it)
correctly. Everyone else either guessed wrong, or wavered back and
forth and just took a guess. We asked sooo many utterly simple
questions and each were met with ..."Well, it's been a while since I
had vb at school, but I was really good at Cobol and I can be really
great a VB.NET" Then there were a bunch that claimed they new C++.
At least 20 that I can think of who professed to know C++ and have
expereience with it, couldn't tell me what was contained in a .h file
versus .cpp file. They coudln't tell you what IDE They used. They
couldn't tell you the difference between a struct and an enum. On
the Sql Part,most coudln't tell you who E.F. Codd was, what a
redundancy was, a functional dependency and many other basic
questions. Not a big deal for college freshmen, but for people
claiming to have 2 years experience with SQL? And then when asked
what tools they used in SQL Server, they couldn't answer it. Most
didn't know what Query Analyzer, Enterprise Manage or SQL Plus
was...and for working 2 years with ORacle or SQL Server, this is
plain and simple BS.

Then we ran an ad for a VB.NET developer with at least 1 year
expereience in VB.NET or C#, and 3 years with COM. Every resume had
this on there. Of the first 10 applicants we got, not one could even
tell us what COM stood for. Ok, maybe they didn't know acronyms. So
we had some really really complex questions like what is the
difference between a reference and a value type? No one knew it. For
1 year with VB.NET or C#, that's hard to believe. Asked if they could
name three objects in ADO.NET , only two could name anything...and
they could only name the dataadapter or dataset. What namespaces do
you know the best..."Well, I only worked with Windows Forms" was an
all too typical answer.


Perhaps the problem is your questions. Some of your questions are nonsense( who E.F. Codd is has nothing to do with using SQL effectively, knowing
what COM stands for has nothing to do with using it, remembering SQL Servertool names has little to do with programming modules using SQL Server ),
while many are relevant and are a test of knowledge ( every C++ programmershould know what a struct or enum is, and the difference between a header
and cpp file, every .NET programmer should know the difference between a
reference and value type ). Some are borderline ( is it really a test of SQLprogramming to know the terms "functional dependency" and even the term
"redundancy " may mean different things to different people, is it really
necessary to remember the exact names of classes, not objects as you writeabove, in ADO .NET, or any other API ).

I think the real problem is the emphasis place on bits and pieces of
knowledge as a measure of programming skills. Do you ever try to have a
discussion of technical knowledge in a core area in which you are looking tosee if the interviewee knows about it, rather than ask random questions
which you deem important ?

Here is a good example of irrelevancy ? You wrote above "Then there were abunch that claimed they new C++." Should I decide that anyone who doesn't
know the difference between "new and "knew" couldn't possibly be literate
enough to work for my company ? Anyone can play the game by which decisionsabout ability are based on some idea of which facts are important to know
and which aren't.

Nowadays the requirements for a programming job are ridiculous: must have 3years of X, must have 4 years of Y, must have 6 years of Z, must have workedwith A, B, and C in an enterprise environment for 2 and a half years, mustknow I, J, and K thoroughly and have worked 2 years implementing I and J onK with L as a possible alternative etc. etc., that to even get one's resumenoticed if one "knows" two or three of the main areas mentioned, people liepretty blatantly about their experience. Can you blame them ?

Some people have worked with technologies in the past which they could
easily pick up again if they were offered a job which supposedly needed
knowledge in that technology, but they can't have worked with everything
mentioned in most ads at the exact moment in which the interview takes
place. So they don't remember some particularity which the interviewer
considers important to know to get a job. Perhaps the problem is the
overemphasis on things that are irrelevant for that particular job, and notenough relevance on core issues which the interviewee must know to do the
job.

I am not saying that an interviewee must not know core issues, and be ableto respond in kind. But if your questions, some totally relevant while
others have little to do with real programming knowledge in the areas cited,are any indication of the questions asked which are deemed "important" , nowonder so many interviewees fail.

It has become a demeaning process for many programmers to be look for a joband be interviewed. Despite twenty four years of experience, I have taken
tests in which I consistently scored in the 90-100% range, I have been askedquestions time and time again which I have been glad to answer, I have beentold to build a portfolio, get this or that certification, change my resumein this or that way. Yet if I do manage to get the rare interview, after
weeks or months sometimes of phone calls and pre-interviewing screening, andendless false promises and manipulations, and I do fairly well answering
questions and showing my knowledge and willingness to take on whatever thejob requires ( work at night, work on the weekends, travel 25-50% of the
time, answer customer support questions, etc. etc. ) my chances remain verylow and inevitably someone else is chosen.

It is always wonderful, when one is looking for a job in a recession, to
hear others tell about how anyone with knowledge and experience should be
working, because they are. The reality is far different and more gruesome
than you can possibly know. Despite my own sufferings on the job market, Iwouldn't wish the situation on you. I do hear what you are saying about
interviewees not knowing basic things about the areas in which they are
looking for work, but you do really need to take into account that when oneis not able to find work, and yet one knows that he or she is talented
enough to do many jobs, there inevitably will occur people applying for
positions in which they do not really know all the areas which are
supposedly required.

Edward,
Thank you for a breath of fresh air in this discussion. While I am
not in your uneviable position of looking for work, your points are
valid.

There -are- plenty of talented people who could do the job quite
well but may interview poorly because the relevancy of a question
is, well, just not relevant to doing the job (even if the interviewer
understood it, which many times is not the case).

And the problem with outsourcing to overseas is that ultimately
you just cannot compete with someone willing to work for U.S.
$10,000/year, or even if that is not a factor, I wouldn't want
to relocate to New Jersey just to take a job that was perfect in
most other respects.

I like your attitude and while I am not in a position at present
to hire you, when I am you have a job.

It will be even more refreshing when some of these Chardonnay-
sipping you-can-get-a-job-if-you-want types have the shoe on
their other foot, assuming that they can afford shoes.

Oz

Nov 15 '05 #33

"ozbear" <oz*****@yahoo. com> wrote in message
news:40307acf.3 76739171@news-server...
On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 08:58:37 -0500, "Edward Diener"
<ed******@tropi csoft.com> wrote:
William Ryan eMVP wrote:
Depends on what you call an overstatement. We advertised for someone
with just one job in particular where we wanted 2 years VB
development, 2 Years SQL and Or Oracle and familiarity with Crystal
Reports. Of the 55 resumes we took, every one of the people claimed
they had this experience.

They all talked a great game except when it came to the technical
part. Then the whole sob story about how they were displaced after
911, knew Cobol and AS400 and a 'little vb' came into play. Asked
simple questions like "what's faster, early or late binding" only the
guy that we hired (who was right out of college could answer it)
correctly. Everyone else either guessed wrong, or wavered back and
forth and just took a guess. We asked sooo many utterly simple
questions and each were met with ..."Well, it's been a while since I
had vb at school, but I was really good at Cobol and I can be really
great a VB.NET" Then there were a bunch that claimed they new C++.
At least 20 that I can think of who professed to know C++ and have
expereience with it, couldn't tell me what was contained in a .h file
versus .cpp file. They coudln't tell you what IDE They used. They
couldn't tell you the difference between a struct and an enum. On
the Sql Part,most coudln't tell you who E.F. Codd was, what a
redundancy was, a functional dependency and many other basic
questions. Not a big deal for college freshmen, but for people
claiming to have 2 years experience with SQL? And then when asked
what tools they used in SQL Server, they couldn't answer it. Most
didn't know what Query Analyzer, Enterprise Manage or SQL Plus
was...and for working 2 years with ORacle or SQL Server, this is
plain and simple BS.

Then we ran an ad for a VB.NET developer with at least 1 year
expereience in VB.NET or C#, and 3 years with COM. Every resume had
this on there. Of the first 10 applicants we got, not one could even
tell us what COM stood for. Ok, maybe they didn't know acronyms. So
we had some really really complex questions like what is the
difference between a reference and a value type? No one knew it. For
1 year with VB.NET or C#, that's hard to believe. Asked if they could
name three objects in ADO.NET , only two could name anything...and
they could only name the dataadapter or dataset. What namespaces do
you know the best..."Well, I only worked with Windows Forms" was an
all too typical answer.
Perhaps the problem is your questions. Some of your questions are nonsense( who E.F. Codd is has nothing to do with using SQL effectively, knowing
what COM stands for has nothing to do with using it, remembering SQL Servertool names has little to do with programming modules using SQL Server ),
while many are relevant and are a test of knowledge ( every C++ programmershould know what a struct or enum is, and the difference between a header
and cpp file, every .NET programmer should know the difference between a
reference and value type ). Some are borderline ( is it really a test of SQLprogramming to know the terms "functional dependency" and even the term
"redundancy " may mean different things to different people, is it really
necessary to remember the exact names of classes, not objects as you writeabove, in ADO .NET, or any other API ).

I think the real problem is the emphasis place on bits and pieces of
knowledge as a measure of programming skills. Do you ever try to have a
discussion of technical knowledge in a core area in which you are looking tosee if the interviewee knows about it, rather than ask random questions
which you deem important ?

Here is a good example of irrelevancy ? You wrote above "Then there were abunch that claimed they new C++." Should I decide that anyone who doesn't
know the difference between "new and "knew" couldn't possibly be literate
enough to work for my company ? Anyone can play the game by which decisionsabout ability are based on some idea of which facts are important to know
and which aren't.

Nowadays the requirements for a programming job are ridiculous: must have 3years of X, must have 4 years of Y, must have 6 years of Z, must have workedwith A, B, and C in an enterprise environment for 2 and a half years, mustknow I, J, and K thoroughly and have worked 2 years implementing I and J onK with L as a possible alternative etc. etc., that to even get one's resumenoticed if one "knows" two or three of the main areas mentioned, people liepretty blatantly about their experience. Can you blame them ?

Some people have worked with technologies in the past which they could
easily pick up again if they were offered a job which supposedly needed
knowledge in that technology, but they can't have worked with everything
mentioned in most ads at the exact moment in which the interview takes
place. So they don't remember some particularity which the interviewer
considers important to know to get a job. Perhaps the problem is the
overemphasis on things that are irrelevant for that particular job, and notenough relevance on core issues which the interviewee must know to do the
job.

I am not saying that an interviewee must not know core issues, and be ableto respond in kind. But if your questions, some totally relevant while
others have little to do with real programming knowledge in the areas cited,are any indication of the questions asked which are deemed "important" , nowonder so many interviewees fail.

It has become a demeaning process for many programmers to be look for a joband be interviewed. Despite twenty four years of experience, I have taken
tests in which I consistently scored in the 90-100% range, I have been askedquestions time and time again which I have been glad to answer, I have beentold to build a portfolio, get this or that certification, change my resumein this or that way. Yet if I do manage to get the rare interview, after
weeks or months sometimes of phone calls and pre-interviewing screening, andendless false promises and manipulations, and I do fairly well answering
questions and showing my knowledge and willingness to take on whatever thejob requires ( work at night, work on the weekends, travel 25-50% of the
time, answer customer support questions, etc. etc. ) my chances remain verylow and inevitably someone else is chosen.

It is always wonderful, when one is looking for a job in a recession, to
hear others tell about how anyone with knowledge and experience should be
working, because they are. The reality is far different and more gruesome
than you can possibly know. Despite my own sufferings on the job market, Iwouldn't wish the situation on you. I do hear what you are saying about
interviewees not knowing basic things about the areas in which they are
looking for work, but you do really need to take into account that when oneis not able to find work, and yet one knows that he or she is talented
enough to do many jobs, there inevitably will occur people applying for
positions in which they do not really know all the areas which are
supposedly required.

Edward,
Thank you for a breath of fresh air in this discussion. While I am
not in your uneviable position of looking for work, your points are
valid.

There -are- plenty of talented people who could do the job quite
well but may interview poorly because the relevancy of a question
is, well, just not relevant to doing the job (even if the interviewer
understood it, which many times is not the case).

And the problem with outsourcing to overseas is that ultimately
you just cannot compete with someone willing to work for U.S.
$10,000/year, or even if that is not a factor, I wouldn't want
to relocate to New Jersey just to take a job that was perfect in
most other respects.

I like your attitude and while I am not in a position at present
to hire you, when I am you have a job.

It will be even more refreshing when some of these Chardonnay-
sipping you-can-get-a-job-if-you-want types have the shoe on
their other foot, assuming that they can afford shoes.

Oz


<<> There -are- plenty of talented people who could do the job quite well but may interview poorly because the relevancy of a question
is, well, just not relevant to doing the job (even if the interviewer
understood it, which many times is not the case).>> No one would argue

this, but many people don't interview well b/c they lied on their resume and
have no idea what they are talking about. Desperate or not, claiming you
have 2 years experience for instance, in something that you have never used
is a flat out lie and no amount of desparation justifies it.

Edward makes the point that those interview questions were irrelevant but
they weren't by any means the only ones we asked. Would you say that
someone claiming to have 2 years experience in COM and COM+ and 1 year
experinece in .VB.NET that didn't know what Option Strict was or how to use
an Imports statement is is telling the truth? Two people we interviewed
that claimed to be senior .Net developers couldn't do this. What about
someone claiming to know SQL self rated 7 out of 10 that couldn't didn't
know what Group By was or any of the following functions SUM, AVG, Count?
We had another guy who applied for as an Advanced .NET Developer with
Compact Framework Expertise. The guy quickly started choking and couldn't
answer anything....The 'challenging' task we gave him was to create a PDA
app, add a button and a textbox. Once the user fills in the textbox with
some text, show a messagebox with that task. The guy didn't know which
project type to open. HE then claimed his experience was in eVC++ more than
the CF. (Note what the job title and description were..with no reference to
eVC++). But, if he really knew eVC++, we figured he'd be able to learn the
CF pretty easy. So we had the evC++ SDK on the same machine and asked him to
do the same in eVC++. He still couldn't do it. Then he said he mainly
worked on the desktop for the last year and forgot a lot, but he really knew
the .NET Framework. So we asked him to do it in a VB.NET or C# desktop app.
Well, he could drag the button and the textbox and he could show a
messagebox, but he couldn't get the text of the textbox to show as a
message box.
Then there was another guy who was supposedly a Senior Powerbuilder
developer who knew Delphi and worked with both for 4 years. We figured he
could learn .NET with some training. He didn't know how to pass parameters
into a function and claimed you don't have to do that in Delphi.

I'll probably be accused of making this up but I'm not, more than anyone I
wish there were a bunch of talented developers in this area looking for
work. And out of about 50 applicants, this was very typical. Everyone of
them had some tale of woe about 9/11 costing them their job or Indian people
stealing their job because they'd work for $10.00 a day.

After about 5 months we found a great developer right out of school who was
both honest about what he knew and knew his stuff, not to mention he was
willing to learn...I only wish we could find 10 more of him.

Then there's this little tidbit....If Wages are sooooo low in India and all
the jobs are moving over there solely on cost, why is it that a bunch of
recruiters in INDIA, Dehli and Punjab in particular have contacted me about
contracts for Compact Framework development paying quite a bit more than I
make now, and asking me if I knew anyone else who might be interested? Go
look at the Compact Framework group on Yahoo, there are few posts over there
if I remember correctly, looking for US workers to come to India for
somewhere around $70.00/hr plus living expenses and travel?

I totally sympathize with people that don't have work, and I myself have
been unemployed for a while. I had to move to Augusta to find work and
although my background is in OLAP with Oracle and SQL Server, I had to
quickly learn .NET Development. I didn't like moving at the time, and it
was difficult learning .NET when I had been working with Java and dealing
primarily with OLAP for most of my career, but one thing is for sure, it's
not the fault of anyone in India or any other country. IT is a dynamic
field and it's not something you can get comfortable in.

That's all my original point was, it wasn't to disparage American workers.
But I stand by the fact that the contention that there aren't any jobs here
for talented developers is a Myth. A simply trip to Monster.com or dice
will prove me right. And if we, who live in the richest country on earth
with all of our educational resources can't compete with countries like
India, that says much more about us then them. And If I lose my job
tomorrow, I will still stand by this statement.

But don't take my word for it...
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/t...20040115.shtml
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/w...20031126.shtml
http://www.freetrade.org/pubs/briefs/tbp-007es.html

Bill
Nov 15 '05 #34
Alvin:

I appreciate your comments and I was't making fun of anyone. I just get
really fed up with all of the people over here demonizing India as though
it's the cause of their problems. And I can appreciate being desperate, but
reading a book will get you a lot farther than lying, and lying bad, on a
resume. It wastes everyone's time. I know everyone puts their best foot
forward on resume's, but there is no excuse for flat out lies and that's
what I was speaking to.

I personally wouldn't really look to outsourcing overseas, but I'm not a big
fan of outsourcing in general. My heart truly goes out to anyone that's
unemployed..I just don't think the guys over in India are the reasons for
it. Corporate America does a lot of dumb stuff that leaves employees
holding the bag, foreign employees don't cause this. And I've been hearing
this stuff about foreign workers since I was in high school in the late 80s.
Back then it was the 'Japs' stealing our manufacturing jobs, then in the
early 90's it was the evil Mexicans and Koreans stealing our textile jobs,
then in the late 90's it was those awful H1B visa guys, now it's
outsourcing.

And with all due respect, we NEED India more than a lot of people realize.
Did you know that our very own Department of Defense Outsources a HUGE part
of its Radiology to India? Yes, we don't have the Radiologists here in the
states to read all of the images. So does the private sector. Same holds
for IT..we don't have enough people willing to do phone support and many
other tasks for an amount of money that allows companies to afford Phone
Support.

Bill
"Alvin Bruney [MVP]" <vapor at steaming post office> wrote in message
news:ej******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP12.phx.gbl...
i sum it up to the times. it's pretty desperate out there. some folk just
want a paycheck and will do or say anything. if you haven't been out there, you don't know. take it from me, it's ruff out there. you cannot blame these people. screen as best you can but try not to make fun of the answers
because they come from people desperate to earn some kind of income.

--
Regards,
Alvin Bruney [ASP.NET MVP]
Got tidbits? Get it here...
http://tinyurl.com/3he3b
"ozbear" <oz*****@yahoo. com> wrote in message
news:40307acf.3 76739171@news-server...
On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 08:58:37 -0500, "Edward Diener"
<ed******@tropi csoft.com> wrote:
William Ryan eMVP wrote:
> Depends on what you call an overstatement. We advertised for someone
> with just one job in particular where we wanted 2 years VB
> development, 2 Years SQL and Or Oracle and familiarity with Crystal
> Reports. Of the 55 resumes we took, every one of the people claimed
> they had this experience.
>
> They all talked a great game except when it came to the technical
> part. Then the whole sob story about how they were displaced after
> 911, knew Cobol and AS400 and a 'little vb' came into play. Asked
> simple questions like "what's faster, early or late binding" only the
> guy that we hired (who was right out of college could answer it)
> correctly. Everyone else either guessed wrong, or wavered back and
> forth and just took a guess. We asked sooo many utterly simple
> questions and each were met with ..."Well, it's been a while since I
> had vb at school, but I was really good at Cobol and I can be really
> great a VB.NET" Then there were a bunch that claimed they new C++.
> At least 20 that I can think of who professed to know C++ and have
> expereience with it, couldn't tell me what was contained in a .h file
> versus .cpp file. They coudln't tell you what IDE They used. They
> couldn't tell you the difference between a struct and an enum. On
> the Sql Part,most coudln't tell you who E.F. Codd was, what a
> redundancy was, a functional dependency and many other basic
> questions. Not a big deal for college freshmen, but for people
> claiming to have 2 years experience with SQL? And then when asked
> what tools they used in SQL Server, they couldn't answer it. Most
> didn't know what Query Analyzer, Enterprise Manage or SQL Plus
> was...and for working 2 years with ORacle or SQL Server, this is
> plain and simple BS.
>
> Then we ran an ad for a VB.NET developer with at least 1 year
> expereience in VB.NET or C#, and 3 years with COM. Every resume had
> this on there. Of the first 10 applicants we got, not one could even
> tell us what COM stood for. Ok, maybe they didn't know acronyms. So
> we had some really really complex questions like what is the
> difference between a reference and a value type? No one knew it. For
> 1 year with VB.NET or C#, that's hard to believe. Asked if they could
> name three objects in ADO.NET , only two could name anything...and
> they could only name the dataadapter or dataset. What namespaces do
> you know the best..."Well, I only worked with Windows Forms" was an
> all too typical answer.

Perhaps the problem is your questions. Some of your questions are nonsense( who E.F. Codd is has nothing to do with using SQL effectively, knowingwhat COM stands for has nothing to do with using it, remembering SQL Servertool names has little to do with programming modules using SQL Server ),while many are relevant and are a test of knowledge ( every C++ programmershould know what a struct or enum is, and the difference between a headerand cpp file, every .NET programmer should know the difference between areference and value type ). Some are borderline ( is it really a test of
SQL
programming to know the terms "functional dependency" and even the term
"redundancy " may mean different things to different people, is it
reallynecessary to remember the exact names of classes, not objects as you
writeabove, in ADO .NET, or any other API ).

I think the real problem is the emphasis place on bits and pieces of
knowledge as a measure of programming skills. Do you ever try to have a
discussion of technical knowledge in a core area in which you are looking to
see if the interviewee knows about it, rather than ask random questions
which you deem important ?

Here is a good example of irrelevancy ? You wrote above "Then there
were
abunch that claimed they new C++." Should I decide that anyone who
doesn'tknow the difference between "new and "knew" couldn't possibly be literateenough to work for my company ? Anyone can play the game by which
decisionsabout ability are based on some idea of which facts are important to knowand which aren't.

Nowadays the requirements for a programming job are ridiculous: must have 3
years of X, must have 4 years of Y, must have 6 years of Z, must have workedwith A, B, and C in an enterprise environment for 2 and a half years, mustknow I, J, and K thoroughly and have worked 2 years implementing I and
J
onK with L as a possible alternative etc. etc., that to even get one's resumenoticed if one "knows" two or three of the main areas mentioned, people liepretty blatantly about their experience. Can you blame them ?

Some people have worked with technologies in the past which they could
easily pick up again if they were offered a job which supposedly needed
knowledge in that technology, but they can't have worked with
everythingmentioned in most ads at the exact moment in which the interview takes
place. So they don't remember some particularity which the interviewer
considers important to know to get a job. Perhaps the problem is the
overemphasis on things that are irrelevant for that particular job, and
notenough relevance on core issues which the interviewee must know to do thejob.

I am not saying that an interviewee must not know core issues, and be ableto respond in kind. But if your questions, some totally relevant while
others have little to do with real programming knowledge in the areas cited,are any indication of the questions asked which are deemed "important" , nowonder so many interviewees fail.

It has become a demeaning process for many programmers to be look for a joband be interviewed. Despite twenty four years of experience, I have takentests in which I consistently scored in the 90-100% range, I have been askedquestions time and time again which I have been glad to answer, I have beentold to build a portfolio, get this or that certification, change my resumein this or that way. Yet if I do manage to get the rare interview, afterweeks or months sometimes of phone calls and pre-interviewing screening, and
endless false promises and manipulations, and I do fairly well
answeringquestions and showing my knowledge and willingness to take on whatever
thejob requires ( work at night, work on the weekends, travel 25-50% of thetime, answer customer support questions, etc. etc. ) my chances remain verylow and inevitably someone else is chosen.

It is always wonderful, when one is looking for a job in a recession, tohear others tell about how anyone with knowledge and experience should beworking, because they are. The reality is far different and more gruesomethan you can possibly know. Despite my own sufferings on the job
market, Iwouldn't wish the situation on you. I do hear what you are saying about
interviewees not knowing basic things about the areas in which they are
looking for work, but you do really need to take into account that when oneis not able to find work, and yet one knows that he or she is talented
enough to do many jobs, there inevitably will occur people applying for
positions in which they do not really know all the areas which are
supposedly required.

Edward,
Thank you for a breath of fresh air in this discussion. While I am
not in your uneviable position of looking for work, your points are
valid.

There -are- plenty of talented people who could do the job quite
well but may interview poorly because the relevancy of a question
is, well, just not relevant to doing the job (even if the interviewer
understood it, which many times is not the case).

And the problem with outsourcing to overseas is that ultimately
you just cannot compete with someone willing to work for U.S.
$10,000/year, or even if that is not a factor, I wouldn't want
to relocate to New Jersey just to take a job that was perfect in
most other respects.

I like your attitude and while I am not in a position at present
to hire you, when I am you have a job.

It will be even more refreshing when some of these Chardonnay-
sipping you-can-get-a-job-if-you-want types have the shoe on
their other foot, assuming that they can afford shoes.

Oz


Nov 15 '05 #35
Well said!
"sashan" <no*****@import ant.com> wrote in message
news:c0******** **@lust.ihug.co .nz...
and out of your complete oversight. Besides, if cheap is your goal, don'tbe suprised at what you end up with.
just my .02
james

Amen to that. One of my favorite sayings is "You get what you pay for". I didn't make it up or anything, but it is so true.


Linux, gcc, mozilla etc... some good counter examples there.

--
sashan
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~sgov008/

Nov 15 '05 #36
"William Ryan eMVP" <bi**@NoSp4m.de vbuzz.com> wrote in message
news:eH******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP11.phx.gbl...
But I stand by the fact that the contention that there aren't any jobs here for talented developers is a Myth. A simply trip to Monster.com or dice
will prove me right.


I cannot speak for the United States, I live in The Netherlands, but I do
have one thing to say about job advertisements for very interesting
programming jobs on monsterboard and the like. Those sites sell advertising
space by numbers and by contract, most of it is purchased by intermediary
agencies. If there are no jobs, those agencies will make some up because
they payed for the space. They will put in 10 phony jobs a day if they have
to. Over here we have companies like Huxley and Computer Futures that are
notorious for that. The casual visitor of the site will think "Wow, that's a
lot of jobs! And reaaly cool ones too!" while they merely are exposure and a
way to collect personal data for better times. You may fit perfectly, if you
call it appears they are not the least bit interested, will not be able to
tell you anything about the job and all you get is a bored "you can send us
your c.v.".

Martin.
Nov 15 '05 #37
Martin:

Unfortunately that's true, but at least here It's hard to believe that
constitutes the majority of the posts. Depending on when you look and what
you fill iin, it's about 40/60 companies vs. headhunters.... I would
certianly agree that job boards alone don't dictate the number of available
jobs, but on the other hand they do correlate.

My only point is that here in the states, there are quite a few jobs
available..they jobs have hardly all moved to Mexico

I'll tell you one thing though, the most rare thing in this country right
now is a 'free trader' But considering we have unionized industries
consisting of people making over 100k a year, many of which are
multimillionare s, why does that surprise me ;-).
"Martin Maat" <du***@somewher e.nl> wrote in message
news:10******** *****@corp.supe rnews.com...
"William Ryan eMVP" <bi**@NoSp4m.de vbuzz.com> wrote in message
news:eH******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP11.phx.gbl...
But I stand by the fact that the contention that there aren't any jobs here
for talented developers is a Myth. A simply trip to Monster.com or dice
will prove me right.


I cannot speak for the United States, I live in The Netherlands, but I do
have one thing to say about job advertisements for very interesting
programming jobs on monsterboard and the like. Those sites sell

advertising space by numbers and by contract, most of it is purchased by intermediary
agencies. If there are no jobs, those agencies will make some up because
they payed for the space. They will put in 10 phony jobs a day if they have to. Over here we have companies like Huxley and Computer Futures that are
notorious for that. The casual visitor of the site will think "Wow, that's a lot of jobs! And reaaly cool ones too!" while they merely are exposure and a way to collect personal data for better times. You may fit perfectly, if you call it appears they are not the least bit interested, will not be able to
tell you anything about the job and all you get is a bored "you can send us your c.v.".

Martin.

Nov 15 '05 #38
I think that would be actionable as false advertising under U.S. law.
Probably under Dutch law too.

"Martin Maat" <du***@somewher e.nl> wrote in message
news:10******** *****@corp.supe rnews.com...
"William Ryan eMVP" <bi**@NoSp4m.de vbuzz.com> wrote in message
news:eH******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP11.phx.gbl...
But I stand by the fact that the contention that there aren't any jobs here
for talented developers is a Myth. A simply trip to Monster.com or dice
will prove me right.


I cannot speak for the United States, I live in The Netherlands, but I do
have one thing to say about job advertisements for very interesting
programming jobs on monsterboard and the like. Those sites sell

advertising space by numbers and by contract, most of it is purchased by intermediary
agencies. If there are no jobs, those agencies will make some up because
they payed for the space. They will put in 10 phony jobs a day if they have to. Over here we have companies like Huxley and Computer Futures that are
notorious for that. The casual visitor of the site will think "Wow, that's a lot of jobs! And reaaly cool ones too!" while they merely are exposure and a way to collect personal data for better times. You may fit perfectly, if you call it appears they are not the least bit interested, will not be able to
tell you anything about the job and all you get is a bored "you can send us your c.v.".

Martin.

Nov 15 '05 #39
On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 18:37:11 -0500, "William Ryan eMVP" <
<snip>
That's all my original point was, it wasn't to disparage American workers.
But I stand by the fact that the contention that there aren't any jobs here
for talented developers is a Myth. A simply trip to Monster.com or dice
will prove me right. And if we, who live in the richest country on earth
with all of our educational resources can't compete with countries like
India, that says much more about us then them. And If I lose my job
tomorrow, I will still stand by this statement.


<snip>
Have another glass of Chardonay.

Oz
Nov 15 '05 #40

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