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What C# Needs

Having developed with VB since 1992, I am now VERY
interested in C#. I've written several applications with
C# and I do enjoy the language.

What C# Needs:

There are a few things that I do believe MSFT should do to
improve C#, however.

I know that in the "Whidbey" release of VS.NET currently
under development, VB.NET will get good ole "edit-and-
continue" back. Hurray! What's unfortunate (and correct
me if I'm wrong) is that C# developers won't enjoy this
feature. This is very unfortunate because THAT feature
should exist in ALL programming languages.

Another thing that C# needs is better intellisense (as
good as vb.net). I've found a few instances where I hit
ctrl+spacebar and nothing happens in C#. I write the SAME
exact piece of code in VB.NET and hit ctrl+spacebar and
the intellisense pops up just fine.

It's not like C# developers don't want to have these nice
visual and functional features enjoyed by VBers available
to them if they "choose" to use them. Keep in mind the
word "choose". Don't FORCE developers to have to use
these features. Allow them to disable or enable them as
needed. It's ONE development environment folks, why can't
all .NET languages using that dev env benefit?
Nov 15 '05
46 4278

"Keith K" <kp******@linux mail.org> wrote in message
news:06******** *************** *****@phx.gbl.. .
-----Original Message-----
Hi Derek-

I agree that C/C++ people probably feel more comfortable using C#. But
Keith, the original poster, said that he had been using

VB since 1992, so I
thought that in his case he might be happier just

sticking with VB.

Maybe Keith would like to chime in and tell us how he


Let's face it, if the Ximian "Mono" project takes off,
then C# will be the language that takes Visual Studio.NET
developers into the land of Linux and Unix. Not VB.NET.


Think again... mbas

http://www.go-mono.com/languages.html#mbas

HTH,
Tom Shelton
Nov 15 '05 #41
-----Original Message-----

"Keith K" <kp******@linux mail.org> wrote in message
news:06******* *************** ******@phx.gbl. ..
>-----Original Message-----
>Hi Derek-
>
>I agree that C/C++ people probably feel more
comfortable using C#. But
>Keith, the original poster, said that he had been using

VB since 1992, so I
>thought that in his case he might be happier just

sticking with VB.
>
>Maybe Keith would like to chime in and tell us how he

Let's face it, if the Ximian "Mono" project takes off,
then C# will be the language that takes Visual

Studio.NET developers into the land of Linux and Unix. Not VB.NET.


Think again... mbas

http://www.go-mono.com/languages.html#mbas

HTH,
Tom Shelton

That's great news, it still does not change my original
posting suggestion, however. All languages should be able
to benefit from ide, compiler and debugger enhancements to
VS.NET.
Nov 15 '05 #42
-----Original Message-----
"Keith K" <kp******@linux mail.org> wrote in news:0a3c01c35b 56$54814960$a*******@phx. gbl:
I disagree! There are times when you are not actually
TRYING to FIX code. I just may want to change a formula or call a different function right quick for "whatever
reason". It may have been a SIMPLE typing error (i.e. a mispelled word or something). I should NOT have to stop
the program, make that simple change and restart the
program and then have to wait until it reaches that part of the code to see my results.
Sigh :)
You all don't get it, do you. Let me explain it

once again. :) WHY,why, WHY, why, why, W H Y, WHY are you stepping through that code in thefirst place?

WHY, WHY, WHY WHY, WHY? You're not being FORCED to use
this feature, but don't keep it from those of us who DO
want to use t! Just leave it disabled. You debug and fix
the way you want to and we'll debug and fix the way we
want to. Isn't Democracy Grand?
Nov 15 '05 #43

"Keith K." <kp******@linxu mail.org> wrote in message
news:9e******** *************** *****@phx.gbl.. .
-----Original Message-----

"Keith K" <kp******@linux mail.org> wrote in message
news:06******* *************** ******@phx.gbl. ..

>-----Original Message-----
>Hi Derek-
>
>I agree that C/C++ people probably feel more comfortable using C#. But
>Keith, the original poster, said that he had been using
VB since 1992, so I
>thought that in his case he might be happier just
sticking with VB.
>
>Maybe Keith would like to chime in and tell us how he


Let's face it, if the Ximian "Mono" project takes off,
then C# will be the language that takes Visual Studio.NET developers into the land of Linux and Unix. Not VB.NET.


Think again... mbas

http://www.go-mono.com/languages.html#mbas

HTH,
Tom Shelton

That's great news, it still does not change my original
posting suggestion, however. All languages should be able
to benefit from ide, compiler and debugger enhancements to
VS.NET.


I'm not disputing that... I agree. What I was commenting on was the comment
about VB.NET and Linux/Unix. VB.NET is going to be supported by mono. In
fact it already is partially.

Tom Shelton
Nov 15 '05 #44
-----Original Message-----
"Keith K" <kp******@linux mail.org> wrote in news:0a3c01c35b 56$54814960$a*******@phx. gbl:
I disagree! There are times when you are not actually
TRYING to FIX code. I just may want to change a formula or call a different function right quick for "whatever
reason". It may have been a SIMPLE typing error (i.e. a mispelled word or something). I should NOT have to stop
the program, make that simple change and restart the
program and then have to wait until it reaches that part of the code to see my results.
Sigh :)
You all don't get it, do you. Let me explain it

once again. :) WHY,why, WHY, why, why, W H Y, WHY are you stepping through that code in thefirst place?

1) the routine you wrote misbehaves
2) you checked the code against the algorithms it has to perform. It seemsto do that
3) you reread the code and everything should be fine.

you place a breakpoint... where? At the start of the program? No, youplace a breakpoint at the spot right before where YOU think it can bewrong. You fire up the debugger, you see your misspelling error, you stopthe debugger, you fix the spelling error

and you are done, DONE, done, D O N E!

The current application I'm working on has 10 projects, a hell of a lot oflines of code, do you really think I run that one in the debugger? It isutterly slow in the debugger. I only debug when I need to. When amisspelling in a formula is found, INSIDE the debugger, (like a '-' shouldbe a '+'), you alter the - into a + and recompile and re- run, not in thedebugger. Do you re-step through the code (you have to recompile/restart(even with E&C) and perhaps re-step into the current code because the fixyou just made will bring you DIFFERENT parameter values for the routineyou're currently IN), to see if your misspelling fix works? If you NEEDTO, you weren't sure the '-' should be a '+'.

That's the whole point.

A developer should be sure about the code he/she types in. Utterly simple.If he sees a mistyped formula, and thus fixes the formula, he then iscertain the formula is ok. If not, the fix is a TRIAL/ERROR fix. Plain andsimple. And we all know what kind of software is breeded from Trial/errordevelopment.


If that's the case, then all debuggers should get rid of
the edit-watch functionality so that variable values can't
be changed either in the debugger. Heck, according to
you, Frans, if I see that I mistakenly set a connect
string to the wrong server, why would I want to change
that string while in debug mode (5 minutes into the
execution of the program)? I should just stop the
debugger, go and change the connect string (if it's
hardcoded for WHATEVER reason) and restart the app and
wait another 5 minutes until I reach that point again
where I can pick up the debugging. Heck, why even have a
debugger? Let's just all go BACK to HAVING to generate
message boxes and TRACE files.
Nov 15 '05 #45
*cough* Multiple Inheritance *cough*

It's always a judgement call... a lot of people like to hide/deny things
because they're too afraid they'll be used badly. Pointers, Multiple
Inheritance, EnC. And you'll see people that want to hide some things and
not others, because they don't want to lose the functionality of some of the
features.

I agree with you, I don't like the removal of features because people think
it might be used badly and/or they can't be bothered to work out a decent
way to make it work (in the case of MI). That being said, I generally find
myself naturally coding the way Frans says. I've never used EnC before
because I've hardly touched VB, but I don't think I would use it much/at
all. But I wouldn't say that it shouldn't be included just because I like my
way of developing.

Niall

"Len Weaver" <le********@mer itsoft.net> wrote in message
news:uQ******** ******@tk2msftn gp13.phx.gbl...
Hello Frans,

I agree that some people use E&C as a substitute for design, but
removing a feature just because some people will abuse it seems wrong to
me.

Later,
Len

Nov 15 '05 #46
-----Original Message-----
"Keith K" <kp******@linux mail.org> wrote in news:0a3c01c35b 56$54814960$a*******@phx. gbl:
I disagree! There are times when you are not actually
TRYING to FIX code. I just may want to change a formula or call a different function right quick for "whatever
reason". It may have been a SIMPLE typing error (i.e. a mispelled word or something). I should NOT have to stop
the program, make that simple change and restart the
program and then have to wait until it reaches that part of the code to see my results.
Sigh :)
You all don't get it, do you. Let me explain it

once again. :) WHY,why, WHY, why, why, W H Y, WHY are you stepping through that code in thefirst place?

1) the routine you wrote misbehaves
2) you checked the code against the algorithms it has to perform. It seemsto do that
3) you reread the code and everything should be fine.

you place a breakpoint... where? At the start of the program? No, youplace a breakpoint at the spot right before where YOU think it can bewrong. You fire up the debugger, you see your misspelling error, you stopthe debugger, you fix the spelling error

and you are done, DONE, done, D O N E!

The current application I'm working on has 10 projects, a hell of a lot oflines of code, do you really think I run that one in the debugger? It isutterly slow in the debugger. I only debug when I need to. When amisspelling in a formula is found, INSIDE the debugger, (like a '-' shouldbe a '+'), you alter the - into a + and recompile and re- run, not in thedebugger. Do you re-step through the code (you have to recompile/restart(even with E&C) and perhaps re-step into the current code because the fixyou just made will bring you DIFFERENT parameter values for the routineyou're currently IN), to see if your misspelling fix works? If you NEEDTO, you weren't sure the '-' should be a '+'.

That's the whole point.

A developer should be sure about the code he/she types in. Utterly simple.If he sees a mistyped formula, and thus fixes the formula, he then iscertain the formula is ok. If not, the fix is a TRIAL/ERROR fix. Plain andsimple. And we all know what kind of software is breeded from Trial/errordevelopment.

What if it's not a typing error, I just WANT to change it
because I WANT TO to see what the results would be?
Nov 15 '05 #47

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