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What C# Needs

Having developed with VB since 1992, I am now VERY
interested in C#. I've written several applications with
C# and I do enjoy the language.

What C# Needs:

There are a few things that I do believe MSFT should do to
improve C#, however.

I know that in the "Whidbey" release of VS.NET currently
under development, VB.NET will get good ole "edit-and-
continue" back. Hurray! What's unfortunate (and correct
me if I'm wrong) is that C# developers won't enjoy this
feature. This is very unfortunate because THAT feature
should exist in ALL programming languages.

Another thing that C# needs is better intellisense (as
good as vb.net). I've found a few instances where I hit
ctrl+spacebar and nothing happens in C#. I write the SAME
exact piece of code in VB.NET and hit ctrl+spacebar and
the intellisense pops up just fine.

It's not like C# developers don't want to have these nice
visual and functional features enjoyed by VBers available
to them if they "choose" to use them. Keep in mind the
word "choose". Don't FORCE developers to have to use
these features. Allow them to disable or enable them as
needed. It's ONE development environment folks, why can't
all .NET languages using that dev env benefit?
Nov 15 '05
46 4278
"Rob Teixeira [MVP]" <RobTeixeira@@m sn.com> <"Rob Teixeira [MVP]"
<RobTeixeira@@m sn.com>> wrote:
o Variables declared within properties, which then can't be accessed
by other methods (except possibly where there's a new attribute
specified, eg AccessPropertyF ields, to allow easier serialization)
I'm not sure I understand this properly. I mean, local variables can't be
accessed by other methods as it is, and how does this affect serialization.
There might be something interesting here, so i'm curious :-)


They wouldn't *actually* be local variables - they'd be instance/static
variables depending on how the property were declared. They wouldn't be
within the get/set, but within the property declaration itself. For
instance:

public int Height
{
int height;

get { return height; }
}

"height" would effectively just be a private instance variable as far
as IL is concerned (no IL/CLR changes are required) but no methods
would have direct access to it unless they'd been marked with the
attribute to say "I'm special; let me do what I want".

You'd need certain extra rules to avoid name collision etc, but I think
it would be a nice idea. It would allow the compiler to check the
convention where only the property has access to fields, and everything
(including the class) has to go through properties. Of course, this
would be awful if you couldn't specify a private mutator and a public
accessor, but this proposal takes that as read :)
o Possibly an attribute to be specified on the derived class which
would tell the compiler to effectively "inherit" the constructors
from the base class (ie automatically provide stub versions which
just call the base version)


Well, there's been a lot of this kind of talk over other OOP languages, and
all I can say is that it starts language civel wars :-)
There are some legit reasons why constructors aren't inherited and
overridable (well, no inheritance means no overridable by definition i
suppose).


Absolutely. I fully agree with them not automatically being inherited
(see http://www.pobox.com/~skeet/csharp/constructors.html) but for
certain types (especially Exception) it would be quite handy to have a
shorthand way of saying "I want all the same constructors as my base
class". It should be stated in the derived class though, not the base
class.

The other alternative is for the IDE to make this easier, by providing
a way of saying, "Show me all the base class constructors, and let me
tick which ones I want stubs provided for."
Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing constructors being part of the interface,
so you can do things like properly mandate constructor signatures when they
are absolutely required (like for serialization - ISerializable, as an
example).


And static methods at the same time, I'd suggest. Basically, things
which can only actually be invoked by reflection, but which are handy
to get the compiler to check anyway.

--
Jon Skeet - <sk***@pobox.co m>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet/
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too
Nov 15 '05 #11
"Rob Teixeira [MVP]" <RobTeixeira@@m sn.com> <"Rob Teixeira [MVP]"
<RobTeixeira@@m sn.com>> wrote:
o Variables declared within properties, which then can't be accessed
by other methods (except possibly where there's a new attribute
specified, eg AccessPropertyF ields, to allow easier serialization)
I'm not sure I understand this properly. I mean, local variables can't be
accessed by other methods as it is, and how does this affect serialization.
There might be something interesting here, so i'm curious :-)


They wouldn't *actually* be local variables - they'd be instance/static
variables depending on how the property were declared. They wouldn't be
within the get/set, but within the property declaration itself. For
instance:

public int Height
{
int height;

get { return height; }
}

"height" would effectively just be a private instance variable as far
as IL is concerned (no IL/CLR changes are required) but no methods
would have direct access to it unless they'd been marked with the
attribute to say "I'm special; let me do what I want".

You'd need certain extra rules to avoid name collision etc, but I think
it would be a nice idea. It would allow the compiler to check the
convention where only the property has access to fields, and everything
(including the class) has to go through properties. Of course, this
would be awful if you couldn't specify a private mutator and a public
accessor, but this proposal takes that as read :)
o Possibly an attribute to be specified on the derived class which
would tell the compiler to effectively "inherit" the constructors
from the base class (ie automatically provide stub versions which
just call the base version)


Well, there's been a lot of this kind of talk over other OOP languages, and
all I can say is that it starts language civel wars :-)
There are some legit reasons why constructors aren't inherited and
overridable (well, no inheritance means no overridable by definition i
suppose).


Absolutely. I fully agree with them not automatically being inherited
(see http://www.pobox.com/~skeet/csharp/constructors.html) but for
certain types (especially Exception) it would be quite handy to have a
shorthand way of saying "I want all the same constructors as my base
class". It should be stated in the derived class though, not the base
class.

The other alternative is for the IDE to make this easier, by providing
a way of saying, "Show me all the base class constructors, and let me
tick which ones I want stubs provided for."
Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing constructors being part of the interface,
so you can do things like properly mandate constructor signatures when they
are absolutely required (like for serialization - ISerializable, as an
example).


And static methods at the same time, I'd suggest. Basically, things
which can only actually be invoked by reflection, but which are handy
to get the compiler to check anyway.

--
Jon Skeet - <sk***@pobox.co m>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet/
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too
Nov 15 '05 #12
"Keith K" <kp******@linux mail.org> wrote in news:5a7701c357 69$005f1600
$a*******@phx.g bl:
Having developed with VB since 1992, I am now VERY
interested in C#. I've written several applications with
C# and I do enjoy the language.

What C# Needs:

There are a few things that I do believe MSFT should do to
improve C#, however.

I know that in the "Whidbey" release of VS.NET currently
under development, VB.NET will get good ole "edit-and-
continue" back. Hurray! What's unfortunate (and correct
me if I'm wrong) is that C# developers won't enjoy this
feature. This is very unfortunate because THAT feature
should exist in ALL programming languages.
I'm glad C# DOESN'T get E&C, so C# developers learn the GOOD way of
debugging applications instead of fixing code in the debugger. The
debugger is for testing, not for altering code.
Another thing that C# needs is better intellisense (as
good as vb.net). I've found a few instances where I hit
ctrl+spacebar and nothing happens in C#. I write the SAME
exact piece of code in VB.NET and hit ctrl+spacebar and
the intellisense pops up just fine.


I can't say much, but what I've seen of the intellisense in C# in
Whidbey is that it is better than you can possibly dream about. (how does
'you don't need to press cntr-space anymore' sound?)

FB
--
Solutions Design : http://www.sd.nl
My open source .NET Software : http://www.sd.nl/software
My .NET Blog : http://weblogs.asp.net/FBouma
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nov 15 '05 #13
"Keith K" <kp******@linux mail.org> wrote in news:5a7701c357 69$005f1600
$a*******@phx.g bl:
Having developed with VB since 1992, I am now VERY
interested in C#. I've written several applications with
C# and I do enjoy the language.

What C# Needs:

There are a few things that I do believe MSFT should do to
improve C#, however.

I know that in the "Whidbey" release of VS.NET currently
under development, VB.NET will get good ole "edit-and-
continue" back. Hurray! What's unfortunate (and correct
me if I'm wrong) is that C# developers won't enjoy this
feature. This is very unfortunate because THAT feature
should exist in ALL programming languages.
I'm glad C# DOESN'T get E&C, so C# developers learn the GOOD way of
debugging applications instead of fixing code in the debugger. The
debugger is for testing, not for altering code.
Another thing that C# needs is better intellisense (as
good as vb.net). I've found a few instances where I hit
ctrl+spacebar and nothing happens in C#. I write the SAME
exact piece of code in VB.NET and hit ctrl+spacebar and
the intellisense pops up just fine.


I can't say much, but what I've seen of the intellisense in C# in
Whidbey is that it is better than you can possibly dream about. (how does
'you don't need to press cntr-space anymore' sound?)

FB
--
Solutions Design : http://www.sd.nl
My open source .NET Software : http://www.sd.nl/software
My .NET Blog : http://weblogs.asp.net/FBouma
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nov 15 '05 #14
LOL Jon... I hate VS.NET Intellisense 95% of the time... Eclipse is nice,
but I still don't like Intellisense all that much. It does nothing but get
in my way, not to mention the fact that I type faster than it can popup
most of the time (have to love keyboard shortcuts!)...

As for E&C... C#/C++/C never had it and shouldn't have it. Debugging is for
debugging, not for fixes... I have personally heard a lot of VB developers
exclaim "hey, my variable is the wrong value after I fix *insert bug here*.
what happened?!"... Always got a good laugh out of that one.. ;)

Anyhow,

Bill P.

On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 09:24:12 +0100, Jon Skeet <sk***@pobox.co m> wrote:
Frans Bouma <pe**********@x s4all.nl> wrote:
I can't say much, but what I've seen of the intellisense in C# in
Whidbey is that it is better than you can possibly dream about. (how
does 'you don't need to press cntr-space anymore' sound?)


That sounds awful to me, actually. I *like* having to press control-
space, as otherwise I often end up having to press escape to get rid of
the popup which I often don't want.

I hope anything that is done automatically can be optionally turned
off...

The main way in which I'd like to see intellisense improved is to make
the popups more useful when they *do* appear - rather than having a
single line with arrows on when there are multiple options, show some
number (eg 8) of the options at a time, with a scroll bar.

FWIW, Eclipse is the first IDE which gave me an autocomplete/intellisense
I actually like. VS.NET could do a lot worse than taking a few leaves out
of Eclipse's book. (I gather it's finally getting refactoring though.
Better late than never.)


--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
Nov 15 '05 #15
LOL Jon... I hate VS.NET Intellisense 95% of the time... Eclipse is nice,
but I still don't like Intellisense all that much. It does nothing but get
in my way, not to mention the fact that I type faster than it can popup
most of the time (have to love keyboard shortcuts!)...

As for E&C... C#/C++/C never had it and shouldn't have it. Debugging is for
debugging, not for fixes... I have personally heard a lot of VB developers
exclaim "hey, my variable is the wrong value after I fix *insert bug here*.
what happened?!"... Always got a good laugh out of that one.. ;)

Anyhow,

Bill P.

On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 09:24:12 +0100, Jon Skeet <sk***@pobox.co m> wrote:
Frans Bouma <pe**********@x s4all.nl> wrote:
I can't say much, but what I've seen of the intellisense in C# in
Whidbey is that it is better than you can possibly dream about. (how
does 'you don't need to press cntr-space anymore' sound?)


That sounds awful to me, actually. I *like* having to press control-
space, as otherwise I often end up having to press escape to get rid of
the popup which I often don't want.

I hope anything that is done automatically can be optionally turned
off...

The main way in which I'd like to see intellisense improved is to make
the popups more useful when they *do* appear - rather than having a
single line with arrows on when there are multiple options, show some
number (eg 8) of the options at a time, with a scroll bar.

FWIW, Eclipse is the first IDE which gave me an autocomplete/intellisense
I actually like. VS.NET could do a lot worse than taking a few leaves out
of Eclipse's book. (I gather it's finally getting refactoring though.
Better late than never.)


--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
Nov 15 '05 #16
Hi Chris. IMO, those who choose C# probably have used C/C++; at least this
is the case with me... :)

[BTW, I've been hearing alot about VB.NET, tho; I will probably port
something just to learn it...]

Derek LaZard
"Chris Glasser" <cd*******@hotm ail.com> wrote in message
news:e5******** ******@tk2msftn gp13.phx.gbl...
If you like all of these features in VB, why not just use VB? Does C# offer you something that VB does not that you consider it to be worth the
aggravation of not having the VB features you like?

(All references to VB mean VB.NET, not VB6)

Chris G.

"Keith K" <kp******@linux mail.org> wrote in message
news:5a******** *************** *****@phx.gbl.. .
Having developed with VB since 1992, I am now VERY
interested in C#. I've written several applications with
C# and I do enjoy the language.

What C# Needs:

There are a few things that I do believe MSFT should do to
improve C#, however.

I know that in the "Whidbey" release of VS.NET currently
under development, VB.NET will get good ole "edit-and-
continue" back. Hurray! What's unfortunate (and correct
me if I'm wrong) is that C# developers won't enjoy this
feature. This is very unfortunate because THAT feature
should exist in ALL programming languages.

Another thing that C# needs is better intellisense (as
good as vb.net). I've found a few instances where I hit
ctrl+spacebar and nothing happens in C#. I write the SAME
exact piece of code in VB.NET and hit ctrl+spacebar and
the intellisense pops up just fine.

It's not like C# developers don't want to have these nice
visual and functional features enjoyed by VBers available
to them if they "choose" to use them. Keep in mind the
word "choose". Don't FORCE developers to have to use
these features. Allow them to disable or enable them as
needed. It's ONE development environment folks, why can't
all .NET languages using that dev env benefit?


Nov 15 '05 #17
Hi Chris. IMO, those who choose C# probably have used C/C++; at least this
is the case with me... :)

[BTW, I've been hearing alot about VB.NET, tho; I will probably port
something just to learn it...]

Derek LaZard
"Chris Glasser" <cd*******@hotm ail.com> wrote in message
news:e5******** ******@tk2msftn gp13.phx.gbl...
If you like all of these features in VB, why not just use VB? Does C# offer you something that VB does not that you consider it to be worth the
aggravation of not having the VB features you like?

(All references to VB mean VB.NET, not VB6)

Chris G.

"Keith K" <kp******@linux mail.org> wrote in message
news:5a******** *************** *****@phx.gbl.. .
Having developed with VB since 1992, I am now VERY
interested in C#. I've written several applications with
C# and I do enjoy the language.

What C# Needs:

There are a few things that I do believe MSFT should do to
improve C#, however.

I know that in the "Whidbey" release of VS.NET currently
under development, VB.NET will get good ole "edit-and-
continue" back. Hurray! What's unfortunate (and correct
me if I'm wrong) is that C# developers won't enjoy this
feature. This is very unfortunate because THAT feature
should exist in ALL programming languages.

Another thing that C# needs is better intellisense (as
good as vb.net). I've found a few instances where I hit
ctrl+spacebar and nothing happens in C#. I write the SAME
exact piece of code in VB.NET and hit ctrl+spacebar and
the intellisense pops up just fine.

It's not like C# developers don't want to have these nice
visual and functional features enjoyed by VBers available
to them if they "choose" to use them. Keep in mind the
word "choose". Don't FORCE developers to have to use
these features. Allow them to disable or enable them as
needed. It's ONE development environment folks, why can't
all .NET languages using that dev env benefit?


Nov 15 '05 #18
Hi Keith.
I've found a few instances where I hit
ctrl+spaceb ar and nothing happens in C#.

I haven't had any problems...Occa sionally I was getting a message saying something like "please standby building intellisense cache..."; but haven't noticed it lately...
Intellisense and mouse-over data windows are always there on my workstation...

[BTW, are you running alot of background/system tasks...]
[...I didn't know about the ctrl+spacebar shortcut--it works nice...]

Derek LaZard
"Keith K" <kp******@linux mail.org> wrote in message news:5a******** *************** *****@phx.gbl.. . Having developed with VB since 1992, I am now VERY
interested in C#. I've written several applications with
C# and I do enjoy the language.

What C# Needs:

There are a few things that I do believe MSFT should do to
improve C#, however.

I know that in the "Whidbey" release of VS.NET currently
under development, VB.NET will get good ole "edit-and-
continue" back. Hurray! What's unfortunate (and correct
me if I'm wrong) is that C# developers won't enjoy this
feature. This is very unfortunate because THAT feature
should exist in ALL programming languages.

Another thing that C# needs is better intellisense (as
good as vb.net). I've found a few instances where I hit
ctrl+spacebar and nothing happens in C#. I write the SAME
exact piece of code in VB.NET and hit ctrl+spacebar and
the intellisense pops up just fine.

It's not like C# developers don't want to have these nice
visual and functional features enjoyed by VBers available
to them if they "choose" to use them. Keep in mind the
word "choose". Don't FORCE developers to have to use
these features. Allow them to disable or enable them as
needed. It's ONE development environment folks, why can't
all .NET languages using that dev env benefit?

Nov 15 '05 #19
Hi Keith.
I've found a few instances where I hit
ctrl+spaceb ar and nothing happens in C#.

I haven't had any problems...Occa sionally I was getting a message saying something like "please standby building intellisense cache..."; but haven't noticed it lately...
Intellisense and mouse-over data windows are always there on my workstation...

[BTW, are you running alot of background/system tasks...]
[...I didn't know about the ctrl+spacebar shortcut--it works nice...]

Derek LaZard
"Keith K" <kp******@linux mail.org> wrote in message news:5a******** *************** *****@phx.gbl.. . Having developed with VB since 1992, I am now VERY
interested in C#. I've written several applications with
C# and I do enjoy the language.

What C# Needs:

There are a few things that I do believe MSFT should do to
improve C#, however.

I know that in the "Whidbey" release of VS.NET currently
under development, VB.NET will get good ole "edit-and-
continue" back. Hurray! What's unfortunate (and correct
me if I'm wrong) is that C# developers won't enjoy this
feature. This is very unfortunate because THAT feature
should exist in ALL programming languages.

Another thing that C# needs is better intellisense (as
good as vb.net). I've found a few instances where I hit
ctrl+spacebar and nothing happens in C#. I write the SAME
exact piece of code in VB.NET and hit ctrl+spacebar and
the intellisense pops up just fine.

It's not like C# developers don't want to have these nice
visual and functional features enjoyed by VBers available
to them if they "choose" to use them. Keep in mind the
word "choose". Don't FORCE developers to have to use
these features. Allow them to disable or enable them as
needed. It's ONE development environment folks, why can't
all .NET languages using that dev env benefit?

Nov 15 '05 #20

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