re:
!I found an MSDN document that explains why what I'm trying to do should work
Lee,
From : http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/
"A special attribute named xml:lang may be inserted in documents to specify the
language used in the contents and attribute values of any element in an XML document."
If anything, I can see xml:lang being declared for specific content values, for example :
<p xml:lang="en-GB">What colour is it?</p>
<p xml:lang="en-US">What color is it?</p>
Then, an xml parser could identify regional US and British spellings but, given that *all* the attribute values
must be in English in an html doc, what would be the purpose of declaring xml:lang for the html markup ?
A similar explanation is given here : http://www.simonstl.com/xmlprim/xmlupdate/atts.html
---000---
<SECTION>
<DESCRIPTION xml:lang="en">
Caesar begins by describing the geography of Gaul.
</DESCRIPTION>
<QUOTE xml:lang="la">
Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres, quarum unam incolunt Belgae,
aliam Aquitani, tertiam qui ipsorum lingua Celtae, nostra Galli appellantur.
</QUOTE>
---000---
That's perfectly good usage for xml:lang, as a parser could selectively identify content in different languages.
But, it seems to me that setting xml:lang for the html tag's *attribute* values is unneeded, since they must
be in English, and they must be attributes set to a language identifier, as defined by IETF RFC 4646
( http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4646.txt).
So, I think that requisite pretty well establishes the futility
of setting xml:lang for all the attributes in an html document.
If anything, it seems that the xml:lang attribute is included in the
html server tag for compatibility purposes, or perhaps out of ignorance.
If there's a need to identify that the *contents* of a particular markup tag are in a
specific language, that identification can be included in the tag itself, for example :
<div lang="MX-es" xml:lang="MX-es">
Algo de contenido en espaņol mejicano.
</div>
That makes a lot more sense than setting xml:lang for the attribute values in the html tag.
Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>I found an MSDN document that explains why what I'm trying to do should work.
ASP.NET Web Server Controls Overview
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/zsyt68f1.aspx
Note the distinction between HTML Server Controls and Web Server Controls in the document. Also, note the explanation
of "pass-through" attributes for HTML Server Controls.
Two quotes that sum it up:
1. Any HTML element on a page can be converted to an HTML server control by adding the attribute runat="server".
2. You can add any attributes you need to an HTML server control and the page framework will render them without
any change in functionality.
, Lee
"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message news:Oe**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>Juan,
I appreciate your trying to help, but you're wrong, and you are the one who is confused. :]
I am *not* disputing that when inserted programmatically, the xml:lang attribute renders to the browser. I did just
that as a work around (right after I discovered this bug); but, I should not have to.
I am *not* confusing html attributes with runat="server" attributes, as you call them. Using your logic, none of the
declarative (html) attributes should render to the browser after I add the runat="server" in ASP.NET; yet all of them
(xmlns, lang, and dir) do--except xml:lang.
I started with an html element with 4 attributes (xmlns, lang, xml:lang, and dir) all set declaratively. With *no*
5th attribute of runat="server", all 4 attributes render. If I add the 5th attribute of runat="server", which does
not and should not render, I no longer get all 4 attributes that should render (xmlns, lang, xml:lang, and dir), I
only get 3 (xmlns, lang, and dir). My logic says I should get 4, your says I should get 3? It would be 4 or 0, and
4 is right. Not 0...and not 3.
When I add runat="server", it does not magically make the xml:lang attribute a server-side attribute, while keeping
the other three attributes as "html" attributes. All four are still "html" attributes--which should render.
I think the simplification of my example may be confusing you. It is odd that, in my example, I set runat="server"
but do not have any server-side attributes. (I have all 4 as literal strings, for simplicity of an example.) Well,
in my real-world use, I do have server-side attributes, which I want set declaratively (no code-beside and no
script). I have:
<html runat="server" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
xml:lang="<%$ Resources:GlobalLang, ContentAudienceLanguage %>"
lang="<%$ Resources:GlobalLang, ContentAudienceLanguage %>"
dir="ltr">
Both of those declarative explicit localization expressions should work without my having to write any more
"procedural" (code-beside) code or script. It actually does work fine for the lang attribute--as it should; but not
for the xml:lang attribute--***which is a bug***.
, Lee
"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message news:u0**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>>re:
!I think you are misunderstanding, Juan.
Well, I think you are misunderstanding *me*.
re:
!I had the xml:lang attribute in the html tag (declaratively), like this:
...and it renders to the browser, as it should.
Yes, because it's standard html.
re:
!If I simply add runat="server"
That declares the control to run server side.
For any attribute to be programmed server-side you need a script,
just as you need a script to modify any server control's attributes.
Did you run the sample page I sent ?
It iterates throught the attributes for the html server control,
and shows that the xml:lang attribute *is* added programmatically.
re:
!If I simply add runat="server", leaving in the xml:lang attribute that
!renders without runat="server", all of the (declarative) attributes are
!rendered to the browser--except the xml:lang attribute! That is a bug.
I think you're confusing html attributes with runat="server" attributes.
Html attributes can be inserted in normal html.
Server-side attributes must be inserted in code.
Maybe I'm not explaining this as well as I should.
Try to get someone else's opinion on this matter, if you don't accept mine.
Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message news:en**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
I think you are misunderstanding, Juan. I had the xml:lang attribute in the html tag (declaratively), like this:
<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en-US" lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
...and it renders to the browser, as it should.
If I simply add runat="server", leaving in the xml:lang attribute that renders without runat="server", all of the
(declarative) attributes are rendered to the browser--except the xml:lang attribute! That is a bug.
<html runat="server" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en-US" lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
Cordially,
Lee
"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message news:ey**************@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
Here's a full example which shows that the xml:lang attribute is added programmatically :
>
attributes.aspx:
----------------------
<%@ Page Language="C#" AutoEventWireup="True" %>
<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" runat="server" id="Myid" >
<script language="C#" runat="server">
void Page_Load(Object sender, EventArgs e)
{
Myid.Attributes.Add("xml:lang", "es");
Message.InnerHtml = "<h4>The html control attributes collection contains:</h4>";
IEnumerator keys = Myid.Attributes.Keys.GetEnumerator();
while (keys.MoveNext())
{
String key = (String)keys.Current;
Message.InnerHtml += key + "=" + Myid.Attributes[key] + "<br />";
}
}
</script>
<head id="Head1" runat="server">
<title>The html control attributes collection</title>
</head>
<body>
<form id="Form1" runat="server">
<h3>HtmlControl Attribute Collection Example</h3>
<br />
<span id="Message" enableviewstate="false" runat="server" />
</form>
</body>
</html>
----------------
>
I don't think it's a bug to have to add an attribute programmatically,
because the runat="server" tag only *declares* the html control as a programmable control.
>
To actually program it, you must use a script.
>
>
>
>
Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message news:e0**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>Thanks, Juan.
>>
>I already added similar code to a page event in my masterpage code-beside.
>>
> elHtml.Attributes.Add("xml:lang", Resources.GlobalLang.ContentAudienceLanguage)
>>
>To me, that is a temporary workaround. I still want to understand whether the "eating" of the attribute I
>originally
>posted about is a bug, or if this is actually happening for a reason.
>>
>Cordially,
>Lee
>>
>>
>"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>Hi, Lee.
>>>
>>re:
>>!<html runat="server" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en-US" lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
>>!no xml:lang attribute is rendered to the browser!
>>!Remove the runat="server", and, voila, the xml:lang attribute is rendered.
>>>
>>Try this :
>>>
>><html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" runat="server" id="someID">
>>>
>><script runat="server">
>>someID.Attributes("xml:lang") = "en-US"
>></script>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
>>asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
>>foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
>>======================================
>>>
>>"Lee C." <no****@spam.comwrote in message news:O%****************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>>I think I have discovered a bug in ASP.NET, related to I18N.
>>>>
>>>In ASP.NET 3.5 I have to set runat="server" on the html element to use explicit expressions. It appears that
>>>ASP.NET
>>>eats the xml:lang attribute on the html element when it is set to runat="server".
>>>>
>>>Of course I want to replace the hardcoded "en-US" values with (resource) explicit expressions; but, for
>>>simplicity,
>>>try this:
>>>>
>>><html runat="server" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en-US" lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
>>>>
>>>...And you will find that no xml:lang attribute is rendered to the browser! Remove the runat="server", and,
>>>voila,
>>>the
>>>xml:lang attribute is rendered. :[
>>>>
>>>...Any ideas?
>>>>
>>>Cordially,
>>>Lee
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
12  2013 
Juan,
In theory, I like your idea of investigating "the standard"; but, in
practice it has serious problems, as it often does. First, you are
referring to the XML standard, which is not as appropriate as HTML and XHTML
standards. Second, none of them are crystal clear on best practices for
I18N. There is a lot of *legal* (by the standard) syntax, that makes no
sense, or makes some sense without being clearly best. The W3C site often
states something to the effect of, "some are doing this, some are doing
that, on your own site, at least do something and only time will tell what
is best."
Check out these fine examples, which mirror my syntax, on the W3C site.
Internationalization Best Practices: Specifying Language in XHTML & HTML
Content http://www.w3.org/TR/i18n-html-tech-...0429.092928424
Tutorial: Declaring Language in XHTML and HTML (Draft) http://www.w3.org/International/tuto...Slide0160.html
Juan, you wrote:
But, it seems to me that setting xml:lang for the html tag's *attribute*
values is unneeded, since they must
be in English, and they must be attributes set to a language identifier,
as defined by IETF RFC 4646
(http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4646.txt).
You're not setting it for "the tag's *attribute*", you're setting it for the
*contents*, all contents, of the element (unless overridden by a
sub-setting), which makes perfect sense so that I don't have to set it
individually on every child element--that is the power of a hierarchy! You
seem to be focused on the technical, with some misunderstanding, versus the
spirit of what we're trying to accomplish: telling user agents who our
intended audiences is, by language, as best we can...which is why I'm *also*
setting lang in the HTTP headers and in page meta tags.
, Lee
"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message
news:OY**************@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
re:
!I found an MSDN document that explains why what I'm trying to do should
work
Lee,
From :
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/
"A special attribute named xml:lang may be inserted in documents to
specify the
language used in the contents and attribute values of any element in an
XML document."
If anything, I can see xml:lang being declared for specific content
values, for example :
<p xml:lang="en-GB">What colour is it?</p>
<p xml:lang="en-US">What color is it?</p>
Then, an xml parser could identify regional US and British spellings but,
given that *all* the attribute values
must be in English in an html doc, what would be the purpose of declaring
xml:lang for the html markup ?
A similar explanation is given here :
http://www.simonstl.com/xmlprim/xmlupdate/atts.html
---000---
<SECTION>
<DESCRIPTION xml:lang="en">
Caesar begins by describing the geography of Gaul.
</DESCRIPTION>
<QUOTE xml:lang="la">
Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres, quarum unam incolunt Belgae,
aliam Aquitani, tertiam qui ipsorum lingua Celtae, nostra Galli
appellantur.
</QUOTE>
---000---
That's perfectly good usage for xml:lang, as a parser could selectively
identify content in different languages.
But, it seems to me that setting xml:lang for the html tag's *attribute*
values is unneeded, since they must
be in English, and they must be attributes set to a language identifier,
as defined by IETF RFC 4646
(http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4646.txt).
So, I think that requisite pretty well establishes the futility
of setting xml:lang for all the attributes in an html document.
If anything, it seems that the xml:lang attribute is included in the
html server tag for compatibility purposes, or perhaps out of ignorance.
If there's a need to identify that the *contents* of a particular markup
tag are in a
specific language, that identification can be included in the tag itself,
for example :
<div lang="MX-es" xml:lang="MX-es">
Algo de contenido en espaņol mejicano.
</div>
That makes a lot more sense than setting xml:lang for the attribute values
in the html tag.
Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>>I found an MSDN document that explains why what I'm trying to do should
work.
ASP.NET Web Server Controls Overview
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/zsyt68f1.aspx
Note the distinction between HTML Server Controls and Web Server Controls
in the document. Also, note the explanation
of "pass-through" attributes for HTML Server Controls.
Two quotes that sum it up:
1. Any HTML element on a page can be converted to an HTML server
control by adding the attribute runat="server".
2. You can add any attributes you need to an HTML server control and
the page framework will render them without
any change in functionality.
, Lee
"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message
news:Oe**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>Juan,
I appreciate your trying to help, but you're wrong, and you are the one
who is confused. :]
I am *not* disputing that when inserted programmatically, the xml:lang
attribute renders to the browser. I did just
that as a work around (right after I discovered this bug); but, I should
not have to.
I am *not* confusing html attributes with runat="server" attributes, as
you call them. Using your logic, none of the
declarative (html) attributes should render to the browser after I add
the runat="server" in ASP.NET; yet all of them
(xmlns, lang, and dir) do--except xml:lang.
I started with an html element with 4 attributes (xmlns, lang, xml:lang,
and dir) all set declaratively. With *no*
5th attribute of runat="server", all 4 attributes render. If I add the
5th attribute of runat="server", which does
not and should not render, I no longer get all 4 attributes that should
render (xmlns, lang, xml:lang, and dir), I
only get 3 (xmlns, lang, and dir). My logic says I should get 4, your
says I should get 3? It would be 4 or 0, and
4 is right. Not 0...and not 3.
When I add runat="server", it does not magically make the xml:lang
attribute a server-side attribute, while keeping
the other three attributes as "html" attributes. All four are still
"html" attributes--which should render.
I think the simplification of my example may be confusing you. It is
odd that, in my example, I set runat="server"
but do not have any server-side attributes. (I have all 4 as literal
strings, for simplicity of an example.) Well,
in my real-world use, I do have server-side attributes, which I want set
declaratively (no code-beside and no
script). I have:
<html runat="server" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
xml:lang="<%$ Resources:GlobalLang, ContentAudienceLanguage %>"
lang="<%$ Resources:GlobalLang, ContentAudienceLanguage %>"
dir="ltr">
Both of those declarative explicit localization expressions should work
without my having to write any more
"procedural" (code-beside) code or script. It actually does work fine
for the lang attribute--as it should; but not
for the xml:lang attribute--***which is a bug***.
, Lee
"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message
news:u0**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
re:
!I think you are misunderstanding, Juan.
Well, I think you are misunderstanding *me*.
re:
!I had the xml:lang attribute in the html tag (declaratively), like
this:
...and it renders to the browser, as it should.
Yes, because it's standard html.
re:
!If I simply add runat="server"
That declares the control to run server side.
For any attribute to be programmed server-side you need a script,
just as you need a script to modify any server control's attributes.
Did you run the sample page I sent ?
It iterates throught the attributes for the html server control,
and shows that the xml:lang attribute *is* added programmatically.
re:
!If I simply add runat="server", leaving in the xml:lang attribute
that
!renders without runat="server", all of the (declarative) attributes
are
!rendered to the browser--except the xml:lang attribute! That is a
bug.
I think you're confusing html attributes with runat="server"
attributes.
Html attributes can be inserted in normal html.
Server-side attributes must be inserted in code.
Maybe I'm not explaining this as well as I should.
Try to get someone else's opinion on this matter, if you don't accept
mine.
Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message
news:en**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>I think you are misunderstanding, Juan. I had the xml:lang attribute
>in the html tag (declaratively), like this:
>
<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en-US"
lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
>
...and it renders to the browser, as it should.
>
If I simply add runat="server", leaving in the xml:lang attribute that
renders without runat="server", all of the
(declarative) attributes are rendered to the browser--except the
xml:lang attribute! That is a bug.
>
<html runat="server" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
xml:lang="en-US" lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
>
Cordially,
Lee
>
>
"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message
news:ey**************@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl.. .
>Here's a full example which shows that the xml:lang attribute is
>added programmatically :
>>
>attributes.aspx:
>----------------------
><%@ Page Language="C#" AutoEventWireup="True" %>
><html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" runat="server" id="Myid" >
><script language="C#" runat="server">
>void Page_Load(Object sender, EventArgs e)
>{
>Myid.Attributes.Add("xml:lang", "es");
>Message.InnerHtml = "<h4>The html control attributes collection
>contains:</h4>";
>IEnumerator keys = Myid.Attributes.Keys.GetEnumerator();
>while (keys.MoveNext())
>{
>String key = (String)keys.Current;
>Message.InnerHtml += key + "=" + Myid.Attributes[key] + "<br />";
>}
>}
></script>
><head id="Head1" runat="server">
><title>The html control attributes collection</title>
></head>
><body>
><form id="Form1" runat="server">
><h3>HtmlControl Attribute Collection Example</h3>
><br />
><span id="Message" enableviewstate="false" runat="server" />
></form>
></body>
></html>
>----------------
>>
>I don't think it's a bug to have to add an attribute
>programmatically,
>because the runat="server" tag only *declares* the html control as a
>programmable control.
>>
>To actually program it, you must use a script.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
>asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
>foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
>======================================
>"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message
>news:e0**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl. ..
>>Thanks, Juan.
>>>
>>I already added similar code to a page event in my masterpage
>>code-beside.
>>>
>> elHtml.Attributes.Add("xml:lang",
>>Resources.GlobalLang.ContentAudienceLanguage )
>>>
>>To me, that is a temporary workaround. I still want to understand
>>whether the "eating" of the attribute I
>>originally
>>posted about is a bug, or if this is actually happening for a
>>reason.
>>>
>>Cordially,
>>Lee
>>>
>>>
>>"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message
>>news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl ...
>>>Hi, Lee.
>>>>
>>>re:
>>>!<html runat="server" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
>>>xml:lang="en-US" lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
>>>!no xml:lang attribute is rendered to the browser!
>>>!Remove the runat="server", and, voila, the xml:lang attribute is
>>>rendered.
>>>>
>>>Try this :
>>>>
>>><html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" runat="server"
>>>id="someID">
>>>>
>>><script runat="server">
>>>someID.Attributes("xml:lang") = "en-US"
>>></script>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
>>>asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
>>>foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
>>>======================================
>>>>
>>>"Lee C." <no****@spam.comwrote in message
>>>news:O%****************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gb l...
>>>>>I think I have discovered a bug in ASP.NET, related to I18N.
>>>>>
>>>>In ASP.NET 3.5 I have to set runat="server" on the html element to
>>>>use explicit expressions. It appears that
>>>>ASP.NET
>>>>eats the xml:lang attribute on the html element when it is set to
>>>>runat="server".
>>>>>
>>>>Of course I want to replace the hardcoded "en-US" values with
>>>>(resource) explicit expressions; but, for
>>>>simplicity,
>>>>try this:
>>>>>
>>>><html runat="server" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
>>>>xml:lang="en-US" lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
>>>>>
>>>>...And you will find that no xml:lang attribute is rendered to the
>>>>browser! Remove the runat="server", and,
>>>>voila,
>>>>the
>>>>xml:lang attribute is rendered. :[
>>>>>
>>>>...Any ideas?
>>>>>
>>>>Cordially,
>>>>Lee
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
re:
!versus the spirit of what we're trying to accomplish: telling user agents who our
!intended audiences is, by language, as best we can...which is why I'm *also*
!setting lang in the HTTP headers and in page meta tags
What ? You don't set a language/culture in web.config, too ?
There's a use for overkill ! ( only kidding... )
I don't see too clearly the purpose of declaring a single language for a web page.
I do see a use for declaring specific language attributes in a *collection* of xml documents,
so that individual documents can be parsed for a particular language content.
But, ymmv...
I'd still be interested in knowing what the reply is to your bug report.
I bet you'll get back : "That's by design". <g>
Don't forget to let us all know what happens with that, OK ?
Thanks for an interesting discussion.
Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"Lee C." <no****@spam.comwrote in message news:en*************@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
Juan,
In theory, I like your idea of investigating "the standard"; but, in practice it has serious problems, as it often
does. First, you are referring to the XML standard, which is not as appropriate as HTML and XHTML standards. Second,
none of them are crystal clear on best practices for I18N. There is a lot of *legal* (by the standard) syntax, that
makes no sense, or makes some sense without being clearly best. The W3C site often states something to the effect of,
"some are doing this, some are doing that, on your own site, at least do something and only time will tell what is
best."
Check out these fine examples, which mirror my syntax, on the W3C site.
Internationalization Best Practices: Specifying Language in XHTML & HTML Content
http://www.w3.org/TR/i18n-html-tech-...0429.092928424
Tutorial: Declaring Language in XHTML and HTML (Draft)
http://www.w3.org/International/tuto...Slide0160.html
Juan, you wrote:
>But, it seems to me that setting xml:lang for the html tag's *attribute* values is unneeded, since they must
be in English, and they must be attributes set to a language identifier, as defined by IETF RFC 4646
(http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4646.txt).
You're not setting it for "the tag's *attribute*", you're setting it for the *contents*, all contents, of the element
(unless overridden by a sub-setting), which makes perfect sense so that I don't have to set it individually on every
child element--that is the power of a hierarchy! You seem to be focused on the technical, with some misunderstanding,
versus the spirit of what we're trying to accomplish: telling user agents who our intended audiences is, by language,
as best we can...which is why I'm *also* setting lang in the HTTP headers and in page meta tags.
, Lee
"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message news:OY**************@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>re:
!I found an MSDN document that explains why what I'm trying to do should work
Lee,
From :
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/
"A special attribute named xml:lang may be inserted in documents to specify the
language used in the contents and attribute values of any element in an XML document."
If anything, I can see xml:lang being declared for specific content values, for example :
<p xml:lang="en-GB">What colour is it?</p>
<p xml:lang="en-US">What color is it?</p>
Then, an xml parser could identify regional US and British spellings but, given that *all* the attribute values
must be in English in an html doc, what would be the purpose of declaring xml:lang for the html markup ?
A similar explanation is given here :
http://www.simonstl.com/xmlprim/xmlupdate/atts.html
---000---
<SECTION>
<DESCRIPTION xml:lang="en">
Caesar begins by describing the geography of Gaul.
</DESCRIPTION>
<QUOTE xml:lang="la">
Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres, quarum unam incolunt Belgae,
aliam Aquitani, tertiam qui ipsorum lingua Celtae, nostra Galli appellantur.
</QUOTE>
---000---
That's perfectly good usage for xml:lang, as a parser could selectively identify content in different languages.
But, it seems to me that setting xml:lang for the html tag's *attribute* values is unneeded, since they must
be in English, and they must be attributes set to a language identifier, as defined by IETF RFC 4646
(http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4646.txt).
So, I think that requisite pretty well establishes the futility
of setting xml:lang for all the attributes in an html document.
If anything, it seems that the xml:lang attribute is included in the
html server tag for compatibility purposes, or perhaps out of ignorance.
If there's a need to identify that the *contents* of a particular markup tag are in a
specific language, that identification can be included in the tag itself, for example :
<div lang="MX-es" xml:lang="MX-es">
Algo de contenido en espaņol mejicano.
</div>
That makes a lot more sense than setting xml:lang for the attribute values in the html tag.
Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>>>I found an MSDN document that explains why what I'm trying to do should work.
ASP.NET Web Server Controls Overview
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/zsyt68f1.aspx
Note the distinction between HTML Server Controls and Web Server Controls in the document. Also, note the
explanation
of "pass-through" attributes for HTML Server Controls.
Two quotes that sum it up:
1. Any HTML element on a page can be converted to an HTML server control by adding the attribute runat="server".
2. You can add any attributes you need to an HTML server control and the page framework will render them without
any change in functionality.
, Lee
"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message news:Oe**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
Juan,
I appreciate your trying to help, but you're wrong, and you are the one who is confused. :]
I am *not* disputing that when inserted programmatically, the xml:lang attribute renders to the browser. I did
just
that as a work around (right after I discovered this bug); but, I should not have to.
I am *not* confusing html attributes with runat="server" attributes, as you call them. Using your logic, none of
the
declarative (html) attributes should render to the browser after I add the runat="server" in ASP.NET; yet all of
them
(xmlns, lang, and dir) do--except xml:lang.
I started with an html element with 4 attributes (xmlns, lang, xml:lang, and dir) all set declaratively. With *no*
5th attribute of runat="server", all 4 attributes render. If I add the 5th attribute of runat="server", which does
not and should not render, I no longer get all 4 attributes that should render (xmlns, lang, xml:lang, and dir), I
only get 3 (xmlns, lang, and dir). My logic says I should get 4, your says I should get 3? It would be 4 or 0,
and
4 is right. Not 0...and not 3.
When I add runat="server", it does not magically make the xml:lang attribute a server-side attribute, while keeping
the other three attributes as "html" attributes. All four are still "html" attributes--which should render.
I think the simplification of my example may be confusing you. It is odd that, in my example, I set runat="server"
but do not have any server-side attributes. (I have all 4 as literal strings, for simplicity of an example.)
Well,
in my real-world use, I do have server-side attributes, which I want set declaratively (no code-beside and no
script). I have:
<html runat="server" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
xml:lang="<%$ Resources:GlobalLang, ContentAudienceLanguage %>"
lang="<%$ Resources:GlobalLang, ContentAudienceLanguage %>"
dir="ltr">
Both of those declarative explicit localization expressions should work without my having to write any more
"procedural" (code-beside) code or script. It actually does work fine for the lang attribute--as it should; but
not
for the xml:lang attribute--***which is a bug***.
, Lee
"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message news:u0**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
re:
!I think you are misunderstanding, Juan.
>
Well, I think you are misunderstanding *me*.
>
re:
!I had the xml:lang attribute in the html tag (declaratively), like this:
>...and it renders to the browser, as it should.
>
Yes, because it's standard html.
>
re:
!If I simply add runat="server"
>
That declares the control to run server side.
>
For any attribute to be programmed server-side you need a script,
just as you need a script to modify any server control's attributes.
>
Did you run the sample page I sent ?
>
It iterates throught the attributes for the html server control,
and shows that the xml:lang attribute *is* added programmatically.
>
re:
!If I simply add runat="server", leaving in the xml:lang attribute that
!renders without runat="server", all of the (declarative) attributes are
!rendered to the browser--except the xml:lang attribute! That is a bug.
>
I think you're confusing html attributes with runat="server" attributes.
>
Html attributes can be inserted in normal html.
Server-side attributes must be inserted in code.
>
Maybe I'm not explaining this as well as I should.
Try to get someone else's opinion on this matter, if you don't accept mine.
>
>
>
Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message news:en**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>>I think you are misunderstanding, Juan. I had the xml:lang attribute in the html tag (declaratively), like this:
>>
><html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en-US" lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
>>
>...and it renders to the browser, as it should.
>>
>If I simply add runat="server", leaving in the xml:lang attribute that renders without runat="server", all of the
>(declarative) attributes are rendered to the browser--except the xml:lang attribute! That is a bug.
>>
><html runat="server" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en-US" lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
>>
>Cordially,
>Lee
>>
>>
>"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message news:ey**************@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>>Here's a full example which shows that the xml:lang attribute is added programmatically :
>>>
>>attributes.aspx:
>>----------------------
>><%@ Page Language="C#" AutoEventWireup="True" %>
>><html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" runat="server" id="Myid" >
>><script language="C#" runat="server">
>>void Page_Load(Object sender, EventArgs e)
>>{
>>Myid.Attributes.Add("xml:lang", "es");
>>Message.InnerHtml = "<h4>The html control attributes collection contains:</h4>";
>>IEnumerator keys = Myid.Attributes.Keys.GetEnumerator();
>>while (keys.MoveNext())
>>{
>>String key = (String)keys.Current;
>>Message.InnerHtml += key + "=" + Myid.Attributes[key] + "<br />";
>>}
>>}
>></script>
>><head id="Head1" runat="server">
>><title>The html control attributes collection</title>
>></head>
>><body>
>><form id="Form1" runat="server">
>><h3>HtmlControl Attribute Collection Example</h3>
>><br />
>><span id="Message" enableviewstate="false" runat="server" />
>></form>
>></body>
>></html>
>>----------------
>>>
>>I don't think it's a bug to have to add an attribute programmatically,
>>because the runat="server" tag only *declares* the html control as a programmable control.
>>>
>>To actually program it, you must use a script.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
>>asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
>>foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
>>======================================
>>"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message news:e0**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>Thanks, Juan.
>>>>
>>>I already added similar code to a page event in my masterpage code-beside.
>>>>
>>> elHtml.Attributes.Add("xml:lang", Resources.GlobalLang.ContentAudienceLanguage)
>>>>
>>>To me, that is a temporary workaround. I still want to understand whether the "eating" of the attribute I
>>>originally
>>>posted about is a bug, or if this is actually happening for a reason.
>>>>
>>>Cordially,
>>>Lee
>>>>
>>>>
>>>"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>>Hi, Lee.
>>>>>
>>>>re:
>>>>!<html runat="server" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en-US" lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
>>>>!no xml:lang attribute is rendered to the browser!
>>>>!Remove the runat="server", and, voila, the xml:lang attribute is rendered.
>>>>>
>>>>Try this :
>>>>>
>>>><html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" runat="server" id="someID">
>>>>>
>>>><script runat="server">
>>>>someID.Attributes("xml:lang") = "en-US"
>>>></script>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
>>>>asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
>>>>foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
>>>>======================================
>>>>>
>>>>"Lee C." <no****@spam.comwrote in message news:O%****************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>I think I have discovered a bug in ASP.NET, related to I18N.
>>>>>>
>>>>>In ASP.NET 3.5 I have to set runat="server" on the html element to use explicit expressions. It appears that
>>>>>ASP.NET
>>>>>eats the xml:lang attribute on the html element when it is set to runat="server".
>>>>>>
>>>>>Of course I want to replace the hardcoded "en-US" values with (resource) explicit expressions; but, for
>>>>>simplicity,
>>>>>try this:
>>>>>>
>>>>><html runat="server" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en-US" lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
>>>>>>
>>>>>...And you will find that no xml:lang attribute is rendered to the browser! Remove the runat="server", and,
>>>>>voila,
>>>>>the
>>>>>xml:lang attribute is rendered. :[
>>>>>>
>>>>>...Any ideas?
>>>>>>
>>>>>Cordially,
>>>>>Lee
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
Juan,
My use of language and culture in ASP.Net is a bit different than most. I
have registered numerous country-code-specific domains (mysite.ca,
mysite.co.uk, mysite.com.au, etc.), which resolve to a singular "ASP.Net Web
Site". Nothing new there. However, I'm not doing the ASP.Net usual of
letting the user agent (HTTP header 'accept-language') determine which
language visitors get; I have the country-code TLD drive it. Also, it's not
just the language of my content that varies by cc TLD, it's the content,
too; but, lang attributes play a critical role in informing user agents
(including search engine bots) for what "country" my content is aimed.
I have already found, first-hand, that the better of the major search
engines use the cc TLD *and* the HTML lang/xml:lang to determine whether a
domain's documents (mysite.com.au/my-document.aspx) should show up when a
searcher searches with the 'Only from Australia' checkbox checked on
Live.com, for example.
I'm not setting lang attributes for fun; I'm doing it to correct search
engine results. ASP.NET should make it easy for me--and, it does, but there
is a bug in the implementation.
I appreciate your interest and effort to help.
, Lee
"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message
news:uB**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
re:
!versus the spirit of what we're trying to accomplish: telling user
agents who our
!intended audiences is, by language, as best we can...which is why I'm
*also*
!setting lang in the HTTP headers and in page meta tags
What ? You don't set a language/culture in web.config, too ?
There's a use for overkill ! ( only kidding... )
I don't see too clearly the purpose of declaring a single language for a
web page.
I do see a use for declaring specific language attributes in a
*collection* of xml documents,
so that individual documents can be parsed for a particular language
content.
But, ymmv...
I'd still be interested in knowing what the reply is to your bug report.
I bet you'll get back : "That's by design". <g>
Don't forget to let us all know what happens with that, OK ?
Thanks for an interesting discussion.
Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"Lee C." <no****@spam.comwrote in message
news:en*************@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>Juan,
In theory, I like your idea of investigating "the standard"; but, in
practice it has serious problems, as it often does. First, you are
referring to the XML standard, which is not as appropriate as HTML and
XHTML standards. Second, none of them are crystal clear on best
practices for I18N. There is a lot of *legal* (by the standard) syntax,
that makes no sense, or makes some sense without being clearly best. The
W3C site often states something to the effect of, "some are doing this,
some are doing that, on your own site, at least do something and only
time will tell what is best."
Check out these fine examples, which mirror my syntax, on the W3C site.
Internationalization Best Practices: Specifying Language in XHTML & HTML
Content
http://www.w3.org/TR/i18n-html-tech-...0429.092928424
Tutorial: Declaring Language in XHTML and HTML (Draft)
http://www.w3.org/International/tuto...Slide0160.html
Juan, you wrote:
>>But, it seems to me that setting xml:lang for the html tag's *attribute*
values is unneeded, since they must
be in English, and they must be attributes set to a language identifier,
as defined by IETF RFC 4646
(http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4646.txt).
You're not setting it for "the tag's *attribute*", you're setting it for
the *contents*, all contents, of the element (unless overridden by a
sub-setting), which makes perfect sense so that I don't have to set it
individually on every child element--that is the power of a hierarchy!
You seem to be focused on the technical, with some misunderstanding,
versus the spirit of what we're trying to accomplish: telling user agents
who our intended audiences is, by language, as best we can...which is why
I'm *also* setting lang in the HTTP headers and in page meta tags.
, Lee
"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message
news:OY**************@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>>re:
!I found an MSDN document that explains why what I'm trying to do
should work
Lee,
From :
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/
"A special attribute named xml:lang may be inserted in documents to
specify the
language used in the contents and attribute values of any element in an
XML document."
If anything, I can see xml:lang being declared for specific content
values, for example :
<p xml:lang="en-GB">What colour is it?</p>
<p xml:lang="en-US">What color is it?</p>
Then, an xml parser could identify regional US and British spellings
but, given that *all* the attribute values
must be in English in an html doc, what would be the purpose of
declaring xml:lang for the html markup ?
A similar explanation is given here :
http://www.simonstl.com/xmlprim/xmlupdate/atts.html
---000---
<SECTION>
<DESCRIPTION xml:lang="en">
Caesar begins by describing the geography of Gaul.
</DESCRIPTION>
<QUOTE xml:lang="la">
Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres, quarum unam incolunt Belgae,
aliam Aquitani, tertiam qui ipsorum lingua Celtae, nostra Galli
appellantur.
</QUOTE>
---000---
That's perfectly good usage for xml:lang, as a parser could selectively
identify content in different languages.
But, it seems to me that setting xml:lang for the html tag's *attribute*
values is unneeded, since they must
be in English, and they must be attributes set to a language identifier,
as defined by IETF RFC 4646
(http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4646.txt).
So, I think that requisite pretty well establishes the futility
of setting xml:lang for all the attributes in an html document.
If anything, it seems that the xml:lang attribute is included in the
html server tag for compatibility purposes, or perhaps out of ignorance.
If there's a need to identify that the *contents* of a particular markup
tag are in a
specific language, that identification can be included in the tag
itself, for example :
<div lang="MX-es" xml:lang="MX-es">
Algo de contenido en espaņol mejicano.
</div>
That makes a lot more sense than setting xml:lang for the attribute
values in the html tag.
Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl.. .
I found an MSDN document that explains why what I'm trying to do should
work.
ASP.NET Web Server Controls Overview
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/zsyt68f1.aspx
Note the distinction between HTML Server Controls and Web Server
Controls in the document. Also, note the explanation
of "pass-through" attributes for HTML Server Controls.
Two quotes that sum it up:
1. Any HTML element on a page can be converted to an HTML server
control by adding the attribute runat="server".
2. You can add any attributes you need to an HTML server control and
the page framework will render them without
any change in functionality.
, Lee
"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message
news:Oe**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
Juan,
>
I appreciate your trying to help, but you're wrong, and you are the
one who is confused. :]
>
I am *not* disputing that when inserted programmatically, the xml:lang
attribute renders to the browser. I did just
that as a work around (right after I discovered this bug); but, I
should not have to.
>
I am *not* confusing html attributes with runat="server" attributes,
as you call them. Using your logic, none of the
declarative (html) attributes should render to the browser after I add
the runat="server" in ASP.NET; yet all of them
(xmlns, lang, and dir) do--except xml:lang.
>
I started with an html element with 4 attributes (xmlns, lang,
xml:lang, and dir) all set declaratively. With *no*
5th attribute of runat="server", all 4 attributes render. If I add
the 5th attribute of runat="server", which does
not and should not render, I no longer get all 4 attributes that
should render (xmlns, lang, xml:lang, and dir), I
only get 3 (xmlns, lang, and dir). My logic says I should get 4, your
says I should get 3? It would be 4 or 0, and
4 is right. Not 0...and not 3.
>
When I add runat="server", it does not magically make the xml:lang
attribute a server-side attribute, while keeping
the other three attributes as "html" attributes. All four are still
"html" attributes--which should render.
>
I think the simplification of my example may be confusing you. It is
odd that, in my example, I set runat="server"
but do not have any server-side attributes. (I have all 4 as literal
strings, for simplicity of an example.) Well,
in my real-world use, I do have server-side attributes, which I want
set declaratively (no code-beside and no
script). I have:
>
<html runat="server" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
xml:lang="<%$ Resources:GlobalLang, ContentAudienceLanguage %>"
lang="<%$ Resources:GlobalLang, ContentAudienceLanguage %>"
dir="ltr">
>
Both of those declarative explicit localization expressions should
work without my having to write any more
"procedural" (code-beside) code or script. It actually does work fine
for the lang attribute--as it should; but not
for the xml:lang attribute--***which is a bug***.
>
, Lee
>
"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message
news:u0**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl.. .
>re:
>!I think you are misunderstanding, Juan.
>>
>Well, I think you are misunderstanding *me*.
>>
>re:
>!I had the xml:lang attribute in the html tag (declaratively), like
>this:
>>...and it renders to the browser, as it should.
>>
>Yes, because it's standard html.
>>
>re:
>!If I simply add runat="server"
>>
>That declares the control to run server side.
>>
>For any attribute to be programmed server-side you need a script,
>just as you need a script to modify any server control's attributes.
>>
>Did you run the sample page I sent ?
>>
>It iterates throught the attributes for the html server control,
>and shows that the xml:lang attribute *is* added programmatically.
>>
>re:
>!If I simply add runat="server", leaving in the xml:lang attribute
>that
>!renders without runat="server", all of the (declarative)
>attributes are
>!rendered to the browser--except the xml:lang attribute! That is a
>bug.
>>
>I think you're confusing html attributes with runat="server"
>attributes.
>>
>Html attributes can be inserted in normal html.
>Server-side attributes must be inserted in code.
>>
>Maybe I'm not explaining this as well as I should.
>Try to get someone else's opinion on this matter, if you don't accept
>mine.
>>
>>
>>
>Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
>asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
>foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
>======================================
>"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message
>news:en**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl. ..
>>>I think you are misunderstanding, Juan. I had the xml:lang attribute
>>>in the html tag (declaratively), like this:
>>>
>><html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en-US"
>>lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
>>>
>>...and it renders to the browser, as it should.
>>>
>>If I simply add runat="server", leaving in the xml:lang attribute
>>that renders without runat="server", all of the
>>(declarative) attributes are rendered to the browser--except the
>>xml:lang attribute! That is a bug.
>>>
>><html runat="server" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
>>xml:lang="en-US" lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
>>>
>>Cordially,
>>Lee
>>>
>>>
>>"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message
>>news:ey**************@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl.. .
>>>Here's a full example which shows that the xml:lang attribute is
>>>added programmatically :
>>>>
>>>attributes.aspx:
>>>----------------------
>>><%@ Page Language="C#" AutoEventWireup="True" %>
>>><html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" runat="server" id="Myid"
>>> >
>>><script language="C#" runat="server">
>>>void Page_Load(Object sender, EventArgs e)
>>>{
>>>Myid.Attributes.Add("xml:lang", "es");
>>>Message.InnerHtml = "<h4>The html control attributes collection
>>>contains:</h4>";
>>>IEnumerator keys = Myid.Attributes.Keys.GetEnumerator();
>>>while (keys.MoveNext())
>>>{
>>>String key = (String)keys.Current;
>>>Message.InnerHtml += key + "=" + Myid.Attributes[key] + "<br />";
>>>}
>>>}
>>></script>
>>><head id="Head1" runat="server">
>>><title>The html control attributes collection</title>
>>></head>
>>><body>
>>><form id="Form1" runat="server">
>>><h3>HtmlControl Attribute Collection Example</h3>
>>><br />
>>><span id="Message" enableviewstate="false" runat="server" />
>>></form>
>>></body>
>>></html>
>>>----------------
>>>>
>>>I don't think it's a bug to have to add an attribute
>>>programmatically,
>>>because the runat="server" tag only *declares* the html control as
>>>a programmable control.
>>>>
>>>To actually program it, you must use a script.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
>>>asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
>>>foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
>>>======================================
>>>"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message
>>>news:e0**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl. ..
>>>>Thanks, Juan.
>>>>>
>>>>I already added similar code to a page event in my masterpage
>>>>code-beside.
>>>>>
>>>> elHtml.Attributes.Add("xml:lang",
>>>>Resources.GlobalLang.ContentAudienceLangua ge)
>>>>>
>>>>To me, that is a temporary workaround. I still want to understand
>>>>whether the "eating" of the attribute I
>>>>originally
>>>>posted about is a bug, or if this is actually happening for a
>>>>reason.
>>>>>
>>>>Cordially,
>>>>Lee
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message
>>>>news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.g bl...
>>>>>Hi, Lee.
>>>>>>
>>>>>re:
>>>>>!<html runat="server" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
>>>>>xml:lang="en-US" lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
>>>>>!no xml:lang attribute is rendered to the browser!
>>>>>!Remove the runat="server", and, voila, the xml:lang attribute
>>>>>is rendered.
>>>>>>
>>>>>Try this :
>>>>>>
>>>>><html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" runat="server"
>>>>>id="someID">
>>>>>>
>>>>><script runat="server">
>>>>>someID.Attributes("xml:lang") = "en-US"
>>>>></script>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
>>>>>asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
>>>>>foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
>>>>>======================================
>>>>>>
>>>>>"Lee C." <no****@spam.comwrote in message
>>>>>news:O%****************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx. gbl...
>>>>>>>I think I have discovered a bug in ASP.NET, related to I18N.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>In ASP.NET 3.5 I have to set runat="server" on the html element
>>>>>>to use explicit expressions. It appears that
>>>>>>ASP.NET
>>>>>>eats the xml:lang attribute on the html element when it is set
>>>>>>to runat="server".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>Of course I want to replace the hardcoded "en-US" values with
>>>>>>(resource) explicit expressions; but, for
>>>>>>simplicity,
>>>>>>try this:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>><html runat="server" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
>>>>>>xml:lang="en-US" lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>...And you will find that no xml:lang attribute is rendered to
>>>>>>the browser! Remove the runat="server", and,
>>>>>>voila,
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>xml:lang attribute is rendered. :[
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>...Any ideas?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>Cordially,
>>>>>>Lee
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
re:
!ASP.NET should make it easy for me--and, it does,
!but there is a bug in the implementation.
The fact that you *can* set xml:lang programmatically, and that you *did* set it that way,
as I did, should tell you that it isn't much of a bug, but a question of using the correct implementation.
But, again, please let us know what the reply to your bug report is.
Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"Lee C." <no****@spam.comwrote in message news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
Juan,
My use of language and culture in ASP.Net is a bit different than most. I have registered numerous
country-code-specific domains (mysite.ca, mysite.co.uk, mysite.com.au, etc.), which resolve to a singular "ASP.Net Web
Site". Nothing new there. However, I'm not doing the ASP.Net usual of letting the user agent (HTTP header
'accept-language') determine which language visitors get; I have the country-code TLD drive it. Also, it's not just
the language of my content that varies by cc TLD, it's the content, too; but, lang attributes play a critical role in
informing user agents (including search engine bots) for what "country" my content is aimed.
I have already found, first-hand, that the better of the major search engines use the cc TLD *and* the HTML
lang/xml:lang to determine whether a domain's documents (mysite.com.au/my-document.aspx) should show up when a
searcher searches with the 'Only from Australia' checkbox checked on Live.com, for example.
I'm not setting lang attributes for fun; I'm doing it to correct search engine results. ASP.NET should make it easy
for me--and, it does, but there is a bug in the implementation.
I appreciate your interest and effort to help.
, Lee
"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message news:uB**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>re:
!versus the spirit of what we're trying to accomplish: telling user agents who our
!intended audiences is, by language, as best we can...which is why I'm *also*
!setting lang in the HTTP headers and in page meta tags
What ? You don't set a language/culture in web.config, too ?
There's a use for overkill ! ( only kidding... )
I don't see too clearly the purpose of declaring a single language for a web page.
I do see a use for declaring specific language attributes in a *collection* of xml documents,
so that individual documents can be parsed for a particular language content.
But, ymmv...
I'd still be interested in knowing what the reply is to your bug report.
I bet you'll get back : "That's by design". <g>
Don't forget to let us all know what happens with that, OK ?
Thanks for an interesting discussion.
Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"Lee C." <no****@spam.comwrote in message news:en*************@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>Juan,
In theory, I like your idea of investigating "the standard"; but, in practice it has serious problems, as it often
does. First, you are referring to the XML standard, which is not as appropriate as HTML and XHTML standards.
Second, none of them are crystal clear on best practices for I18N. There is a lot of *legal* (by the standard)
syntax, that makes no sense, or makes some sense without being clearly best. The W3C site often states something to
the effect of, "some are doing this, some are doing that, on your own site, at least do something and only time will
tell what is best."
Check out these fine examples, which mirror my syntax, on the W3C site.
Internationalization Best Practices: Specifying Language in XHTML & HTML Content
http://www.w3.org/TR/i18n-html-tech-...0429.092928424
Tutorial: Declaring Language in XHTML and HTML (Draft)
http://www.w3.org/International/tuto...Slide0160.html
Juan, you wrote:
But, it seems to me that setting xml:lang for the html tag's *attribute* values is unneeded, since they must
be in English, and they must be attributes set to a language identifier, as defined by IETF RFC 4646
(http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4646.txt).
You're not setting it for "the tag's *attribute*", you're setting it for the *contents*, all contents, of the
element (unless overridden by a sub-setting), which makes perfect sense so that I don't have to set it individually
on every child element--that is the power of a hierarchy! You seem to be focused on the technical, with some
misunderstanding, versus the spirit of what we're trying to accomplish: telling user agents who our intended
audiences is, by language, as best we can...which is why I'm *also* setting lang in the HTTP headers and in page
meta tags.
, Lee
"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message news:OY**************@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
re:
!I found an MSDN document that explains why what I'm trying to do should work
Lee,
From :
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/
"A special attribute named xml:lang may be inserted in documents to specify the
language used in the contents and attribute values of any element in an XML document."
If anything, I can see xml:lang being declared for specific content values, for example :
<p xml:lang="en-GB">What colour is it?</p>
<p xml:lang="en-US">What color is it?</p>
Then, an xml parser could identify regional US and British spellings but, given that *all* the attribute values
must be in English in an html doc, what would be the purpose of declaring xml:lang for the html markup ?
A similar explanation is given here :
http://www.simonstl.com/xmlprim/xmlupdate/atts.html
---000---
<SECTION>
<DESCRIPTION xml:lang="en">
Caesar begins by describing the geography of Gaul.
</DESCRIPTION>
<QUOTE xml:lang="la">
Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres, quarum unam incolunt Belgae,
aliam Aquitani, tertiam qui ipsorum lingua Celtae, nostra Galli appellantur.
</QUOTE>
---000---
That's perfectly good usage for xml:lang, as a parser could selectively identify content in different languages.
But, it seems to me that setting xml:lang for the html tag's *attribute* values is unneeded, since they must
be in English, and they must be attributes set to a language identifier, as defined by IETF RFC 4646
(http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4646.txt).
So, I think that requisite pretty well establishes the futility
of setting xml:lang for all the attributes in an html document.
If anything, it seems that the xml:lang attribute is included in the
html server tag for compatibility purposes, or perhaps out of ignorance.
If there's a need to identify that the *contents* of a particular markup tag are in a
specific language, that identification can be included in the tag itself, for example :
<div lang="MX-es" xml:lang="MX-es">
Algo de contenido en espaņol mejicano.
</div>
That makes a lot more sense than setting xml:lang for the attribute values in the html tag.
Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>I found an MSDN document that explains why what I'm trying to do should work.
>
ASP.NET Web Server Controls Overview
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/zsyt68f1.aspx
>
Note the distinction between HTML Server Controls and Web Server Controls in the document. Also, note the
explanation
of "pass-through" attributes for HTML Server Controls.
>
Two quotes that sum it up:
1. Any HTML element on a page can be converted to an HTML server control by adding the attribute
runat="server".
2. You can add any attributes you need to an HTML server control and the page framework will render them
without
any change in functionality.
>
, Lee
>
"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message news:Oe**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>Juan,
>>
>I appreciate your trying to help, but you're wrong, and you are the one who is confused. :]
>>
>I am *not* disputing that when inserted programmatically, the xml:lang attribute renders to the browser. I did
>just
>that as a work around (right after I discovered this bug); but, I should not have to.
>>
>I am *not* confusing html attributes with runat="server" attributes, as you call them. Using your logic, none of
>the
>declarative (html) attributes should render to the browser after I add the runat="server" in ASP.NET; yet all of
>them
>(xmlns, lang, and dir) do--except xml:lang.
>>
>I started with an html element with 4 attributes (xmlns, lang, xml:lang, and dir) all set declaratively. With
>*no*
>5th attribute of runat="server", all 4 attributes render. If I add the 5th attribute of runat="server", which
>does
>not and should not render, I no longer get all 4 attributes that should render (xmlns, lang, xml:lang, and dir),
>I
>only get 3 (xmlns, lang, and dir). My logic says I should get 4, your says I should get 3? It would be 4 or 0,
>and
>4 is right. Not 0...and not 3.
>>
>When I add runat="server", it does not magically make the xml:lang attribute a server-side attribute, while
>keeping
>the other three attributes as "html" attributes. All four are still "html" attributes--which should render.
>>
>I think the simplification of my example may be confusing you. It is odd that, in my example, I set
>runat="server"
>but do not have any server-side attributes. (I have all 4 as literal strings, for simplicity of an example.)
>Well,
>in my real-world use, I do have server-side attributes, which I want set declaratively (no code-beside and no
>script). I have:
>>
><html runat="server" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
> xml:lang="<%$ Resources:GlobalLang, ContentAudienceLanguage %>"
> lang="<%$ Resources:GlobalLang, ContentAudienceLanguage %>"
> dir="ltr">
>>
>Both of those declarative explicit localization expressions should work without my having to write any more
>"procedural" (code-beside) code or script. It actually does work fine for the lang attribute--as it should; but
>not
>for the xml:lang attribute--***which is a bug***.
>>
>, Lee
>>
>"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message news:u0**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>>re:
>>!I think you are misunderstanding, Juan.
>>>
>>Well, I think you are misunderstanding *me*.
>>>
>>re:
>>!I had the xml:lang attribute in the html tag (declaratively), like this:
>>>...and it renders to the browser, as it should.
>>>
>>Yes, because it's standard html.
>>>
>>re:
>>!If I simply add runat="server"
>>>
>>That declares the control to run server side.
>>>
>>For any attribute to be programmed server-side you need a script,
>>just as you need a script to modify any server control's attributes.
>>>
>>Did you run the sample page I sent ?
>>>
>>It iterates throught the attributes for the html server control,
>>and shows that the xml:lang attribute *is* added programmatically.
>>>
>>re:
>>!If I simply add runat="server", leaving in the xml:lang attribute that
>>!renders without runat="server", all of the (declarative) attributes are
>>!rendered to the browser--except the xml:lang attribute! That is a bug.
>>>
>>I think you're confusing html attributes with runat="server" attributes.
>>>
>>Html attributes can be inserted in normal html.
>>Server-side attributes must be inserted in code.
>>>
>>Maybe I'm not explaining this as well as I should.
>>Try to get someone else's opinion on this matter, if you don't accept mine.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
>>asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
>>foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
>>======================================
>>"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message news:en**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>>>>I think you are misunderstanding, Juan. I had the xml:lang attribute in the html tag (declaratively), like
>>>>this:
>>>>
>>><html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en-US" lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
>>>>
>>>...and it renders to the browser, as it should.
>>>>
>>>If I simply add runat="server", leaving in the xml:lang attribute that renders without runat="server", all of
>>>the
>>>(declarative) attributes are rendered to the browser--except the xml:lang attribute! That is a bug.
>>>>
>>><html runat="server" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en-US" lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
>>>>
>>>Cordially,
>>>Lee
>>>>
>>>>
>>>"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message news:ey**************@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>>>>Here's a full example which shows that the xml:lang attribute is added programmatically :
>>>>>
>>>>attributes.aspx:
>>>>----------------------
>>>><%@ Page Language="C#" AutoEventWireup="True" %>
>>>><html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" runat="server" id="Myid" >
>>>><script language="C#" runat="server">
>>>>void Page_Load(Object sender, EventArgs e)
>>>>{
>>>>Myid.Attributes.Add("xml:lang", "es");
>>>>Message.InnerHtml = "<h4>The html control attributes collection contains:</h4>";
>>>>IEnumerator keys = Myid.Attributes.Keys.GetEnumerator();
>>>>while (keys.MoveNext())
>>>>{
>>>>String key = (String)keys.Current;
>>>>Message.InnerHtml += key + "=" + Myid.Attributes[key] + "<br />";
>>>>}
>>>>}
>>>></script>
>>>><head id="Head1" runat="server">
>>>><title>The html control attributes collection</title>
>>>></head>
>>>><body>
>>>><form id="Form1" runat="server">
>>>><h3>HtmlControl Attribute Collection Example</h3>
>>>><br />
>>>><span id="Message" enableviewstate="false" runat="server" />
>>>></form>
>>>></body>
>>>></html>
>>>>----------------
>>>>>
>>>>I don't think it's a bug to have to add an attribute programmatically,
>>>>because the runat="server" tag only *declares* the html control as a programmable control.
>>>>>
>>>>To actually program it, you must use a script.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
>>>>asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
>>>>foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
>>>>======================================
>>>>"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message news:e0**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>>>Thanks, Juan.
>>>>>>
>>>>>I already added similar code to a page event in my masterpage code-beside.
>>>>>>
>>>>> elHtml.Attributes.Add("xml:lang", Resources.GlobalLang.ContentAudienceLanguage)
>>>>>>
>>>>>To me, that is a temporary workaround. I still want to understand whether the "eating" of the attribute I
>>>>>originally
>>>>>posted about is a bug, or if this is actually happening for a reason.
>>>>>>
>>>>>Cordially,
>>>>>Lee
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>Hi, Lee.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>re:
>>>>>>!<html runat="server" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en-US" lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
>>>>>>!no xml:lang attribute is rendered to the browser!
>>>>>>!Remove the runat="server", and, voila, the xml:lang attribute is rendered.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>Try this :
>>>>>>>
>>>>>><html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" runat="server" id="someID">
>>>>>>>
>>>>>><script runat="server">
>>>>>>someID.Attributes("xml:lang") = "en-US"
>>>>>></script>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
>>>>>>asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
>>>>>>foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
>>>>>>======================================
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>"Lee C." <no****@spam.comwrote in message news:O%****************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>I think I have discovered a bug in ASP.NET, related to I18N.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In ASP.NET 3.5 I have to set runat="server" on the html element to use explicit expressions. It appears
>>>>>>>that
>>>>>>>ASP.NET
>>>>>>>eats the xml:lang attribute on the html element when it is set to runat="server".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Of course I want to replace the hardcoded "en-US" values with (resource) explicit expressions; but, for
>>>>>>>simplicity,
>>>>>>>try this:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>><html runat="server" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en-US" lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>...And you will find that no xml:lang attribute is rendered to the browser! Remove the runat="server", and,
>>>>>>>voila,
>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>xml:lang attribute is rendered. :[
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>...Any ideas?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Cordially,
>>>>>>>Lee
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
Correct implementation? What do you mean by that?
I stated earlier on that I worked around it. It's still a bug. Setting it
programmatically is an incorrect implementation when everything else on my
page is set declaratively. Microsoft offered declarative (explicit)
expressions, and I want to use them--anywhere and everywhere I choose in
accordance with how they are stated to work. When I find one that doesn't
work, it's a bug; it's not a case of my doing something incorrectly. I love
Microsoft Visual Studio 2008; but, I won't tolerate bugs, or suck them up
as, "Oh, I must be doing it wrong since it doesn't work--even though it
should."
, Lee
"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
re:
!ASP.NET should make it easy for me--and, it does,
!but there is a bug in the implementation.
The fact that you *can* set xml:lang programmatically, and that you *did*
set it that way,
as I did, should tell you that it isn't much of a bug, but a question of
using the correct implementation.
But, again, please let us know what the reply to your bug report is.
Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"Lee C." <no****@spam.comwrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>Juan,
My use of language and culture in ASP.Net is a bit different than most.
I have registered numerous country-code-specific domains (mysite.ca,
mysite.co.uk, mysite.com.au, etc.), which resolve to a singular "ASP.Net
Web Site". Nothing new there. However, I'm not doing the ASP.Net usual
of letting the user agent (HTTP header 'accept-language') determine which
language visitors get; I have the country-code TLD drive it. Also, it's
not just the language of my content that varies by cc TLD, it's the
content, too; but, lang attributes play a critical role in informing user
agents (including search engine bots) for what "country" my content is
aimed.
I have already found, first-hand, that the better of the major search
engines use the cc TLD *and* the HTML lang/xml:lang to determine whether
a domain's documents (mysite.com.au/my-document.aspx) should show up when
a searcher searches with the 'Only from Australia' checkbox checked on
Live.com, for example.
I'm not setting lang attributes for fun; I'm doing it to correct search
engine results. ASP.NET should make it easy for me--and, it does, but
there is a bug in the implementation.
I appreciate your interest and effort to help.
, Lee
"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message
news:uB**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>re:
!versus the spirit of what we're trying to accomplish: telling user
agents who our
!intended audiences is, by language, as best we can...which is why I'm
*also*
!setting lang in the HTTP headers and in page meta tags
What ? You don't set a language/culture in web.config, too ?
There's a use for overkill ! ( only kidding... )
I don't see too clearly the purpose of declaring a single language for a
web page.
I do see a use for declaring specific language attributes in a
*collection* of xml documents,
so that individual documents can be parsed for a particular language
content.
But, ymmv...
I'd still be interested in knowing what the reply is to your bug report.
I bet you'll get back : "That's by design". <g>
Don't forget to let us all know what happens with that, OK ?
Thanks for an interesting discussion.
Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"Lee C." <no****@spam.comwrote in message
news:en*************@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
Juan,
In theory, I like your idea of investigating "the standard"; but, in
practice it has serious problems, as it often does. First, you are
referring to the XML standard, which is not as appropriate as HTML and
XHTML standards. Second, none of them are crystal clear on best
practices for I18N. There is a lot of *legal* (by the standard)
syntax, that makes no sense, or makes some sense without being clearly
best. The W3C site often states something to the effect of, "some are
doing this, some are doing that, on your own site, at least do
something and only time will tell what is best."
Check out these fine examples, which mirror my syntax, on the W3C site.
Internationalization Best Practices: Specifying Language in XHTML &
HTML Content
http://www.w3.org/TR/i18n-html-tech-...0429.092928424
Tutorial: Declaring Language in XHTML and HTML (Draft)
http://www.w3.org/International/tuto...Slide0160.html
Juan, you wrote:
But, it seems to me that setting xml:lang for the html tag's
*attribute* values is unneeded, since they must
be in English, and they must be attributes set to a language
identifier, as defined by IETF RFC 4646
(http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4646.txt).
You're not setting it for "the tag's *attribute*", you're setting it
for the *contents*, all contents, of the element (unless overridden by
a sub-setting), which makes perfect sense so that I don't have to set
it individually on every child element--that is the power of a
hierarchy! You seem to be focused on the technical, with some
misunderstanding, versus the spirit of what we're trying to accomplish:
telling user agents who our intended audiences is, by language, as best
we can...which is why I'm *also* setting lang in the HTTP headers and
in page meta tags.
, Lee
"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message
news:OY**************@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
re:
!I found an MSDN document that explains why what I'm trying to do
should work
>
Lee,
>
From :
>
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/
>
"A special attribute named xml:lang may be inserted in documents to
specify the
language used in the contents and attribute values of any element in
an XML document."
>
If anything, I can see xml:lang being declared for specific content
values, for example :
>
<p xml:lang="en-GB">What colour is it?</p>
<p xml:lang="en-US">What color is it?</p>
>
Then, an xml parser could identify regional US and British spellings
but, given that *all* the attribute values
must be in English in an html doc, what would be the purpose of
declaring xml:lang for the html markup ?
>
A similar explanation is given here :
http://www.simonstl.com/xmlprim/xmlupdate/atts.html
>
---000---
<SECTION>
<DESCRIPTION xml:lang="en">
Caesar begins by describing the geography of Gaul.
</DESCRIPTION>
<QUOTE xml:lang="la">
Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres, quarum unam incolunt Belgae,
aliam Aquitani, tertiam qui ipsorum lingua Celtae, nostra Galli
appellantur.
</QUOTE>
---000---
>
That's perfectly good usage for xml:lang, as a parser could
selectively identify content in different languages.
>
But, it seems to me that setting xml:lang for the html tag's
*attribute* values is unneeded, since they must
be in English, and they must be attributes set to a language
identifier, as defined by IETF RFC 4646
(http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4646.txt).
>
So, I think that requisite pretty well establishes the futility
of setting xml:lang for all the attributes in an html document.
>
If anything, it seems that the xml:lang attribute is included in the
html server tag for compatibility purposes, or perhaps out of
ignorance.
>
If there's a need to identify that the *contents* of a particular
markup tag are in a
specific language, that identification can be included in the tag
itself, for example :
>
<div lang="MX-es" xml:lang="MX-es">
Algo de contenido en espaņol mejicano.
</div>
>
That makes a lot more sense than setting xml:lang for the attribute
values in the html tag.
>
>
>
Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl.. .
>>I found an MSDN document that explains why what I'm trying to do
>>should work.
>>
>ASP.NET Web Server Controls Overview
>http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/zsyt68f1.aspx
>>
>Note the distinction between HTML Server Controls and Web Server
>Controls in the document. Also, note the explanation
>of "pass-through" attributes for HTML Server Controls.
>>
>Two quotes that sum it up:
> 1. Any HTML element on a page can be converted to an HTML server
>control by adding the attribute runat="server".
> 2. You can add any attributes you need to an HTML server control
>and the page framework will render them without
>any change in functionality.
>>
>, Lee
>>
>"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message
>news:Oe**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl. ..
>>Juan,
>>>
>>I appreciate your trying to help, but you're wrong, and you are the
>>one who is confused. :]
>>>
>>I am *not* disputing that when inserted programmatically, the
>>xml:lang attribute renders to the browser. I did just
>>that as a work around (right after I discovered this bug); but, I
>>should not have to.
>>>
>>I am *not* confusing html attributes with runat="server" attributes,
>>as you call them. Using your logic, none of the
>>declarative (html) attributes should render to the browser after I
>>add the runat="server" in ASP.NET; yet all of them
>>(xmlns, lang, and dir) do--except xml:lang.
>>>
>>I started with an html element with 4 attributes (xmlns, lang,
>>xml:lang, and dir) all set declaratively. With *no*
>>5th attribute of runat="server", all 4 attributes render. If I add
>>the 5th attribute of runat="server", which does
>>not and should not render, I no longer get all 4 attributes that
>>should render (xmlns, lang, xml:lang, and dir), I
>>only get 3 (xmlns, lang, and dir). My logic says I should get 4,
>>your says I should get 3? It would be 4 or 0, and
>>4 is right. Not 0...and not 3.
>>>
>>When I add runat="server", it does not magically make the xml:lang
>>attribute a server-side attribute, while keeping
>>the other three attributes as "html" attributes. All four are still
>>"html" attributes--which should render.
>>>
>>I think the simplification of my example may be confusing you. It
>>is odd that, in my example, I set runat="server"
>>but do not have any server-side attributes. (I have all 4 as
>>literal strings, for simplicity of an example.) Well,
>>in my real-world use, I do have server-side attributes, which I want
>>set declaratively (no code-beside and no
>>script). I have:
>>>
>><html runat="server" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
>> xml:lang="<%$ Resources:GlobalLang, ContentAudienceLanguage %>"
>> lang="<%$ Resources:GlobalLang, ContentAudienceLanguage %>"
>> dir="ltr">
>>>
>>Both of those declarative explicit localization expressions should
>>work without my having to write any more
>>"procedural" (code-beside) code or script. It actually does work
>>fine for the lang attribute--as it should; but not
>>for the xml:lang attribute--***which is a bug***.
>>>
>>, Lee
>>>
>>"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message
>>news:u0**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl.. .
>>>re:
>>>!I think you are misunderstanding, Juan.
>>>>
>>>Well, I think you are misunderstanding *me*.
>>>>
>>>re:
>>>!I had the xml:lang attribute in the html tag (declaratively),
>>>like this:
>>>>...and it renders to the browser, as it should.
>>>>
>>>Yes, because it's standard html.
>>>>
>>>re:
>>>!If I simply add runat="server"
>>>>
>>>That declares the control to run server side.
>>>>
>>>For any attribute to be programmed server-side you need a script,
>>>just as you need a script to modify any server control's
>>>attributes.
>>>>
>>>Did you run the sample page I sent ?
>>>>
>>>It iterates throught the attributes for the html server control,
>>>and shows that the xml:lang attribute *is* added programmatically.
>>>>
>>>re:
>>>!If I simply add runat="server", leaving in the xml:lang
>>>attribute that
>>>!renders without runat="server", all of the (declarative)
>>>attributes are
>>>!rendered to the browser--except the xml:lang attribute! That is
>>>a bug.
>>>>
>>>I think you're confusing html attributes with runat="server"
>>>attributes.
>>>>
>>>Html attributes can be inserted in normal html.
>>>Server-side attributes must be inserted in code.
>>>>
>>>Maybe I'm not explaining this as well as I should.
>>>Try to get someone else's opinion on this matter, if you don't
>>>accept mine.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
>>>asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
>>>foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
>>>======================================
>>>"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message
>>>news:en**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl. ..
>>>>>I think you are misunderstanding, Juan. I had the xml:lang
>>>>>attribute in the html tag (declaratively), like this:
>>>>>
>>>><html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en-US"
>>>>lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
>>>>>
>>>>...and it renders to the browser, as it should.
>>>>>
>>>>If I simply add runat="server", leaving in the xml:lang attribute
>>>>that renders without runat="server", all of the
>>>>(declarative) attributes are rendered to the browser--except the
>>>>xml:lang attribute! That is a bug.
>>>>>
>>>><html runat="server" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
>>>>xml:lang="en-US" lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
>>>>>
>>>>Cordially,
>>>>Lee
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message
>>>>news:ey**************@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl ...
>>>>>Here's a full example which shows that the xml:lang attribute is
>>>>>added programmatically :
>>>>>>
>>>>>attributes.aspx:
>>>>>----------------------
>>>>><%@ Page Language="C#" AutoEventWireup="True" %>
>>>>><html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" runat="server"
>>>>>id="Myid" >
>>>>><script language="C#" runat="server">
>>>>>void Page_Load(Object sender, EventArgs e)
>>>>>{
>>>>>Myid.Attributes.Add("xml:lang", "es");
>>>>>Message.InnerHtml = "<h4>The html control attributes collection
>>>>>contains:</h4>";
>>>>>IEnumerator keys = Myid.Attributes.Keys.GetEnumerator();
>>>>>while (keys.MoveNext())
>>>>>{
>>>>>String key = (String)keys.Current;
>>>>>Message.InnerHtml += key + "=" + Myid.Attributes[key] + "<br />";
>>>>>}
>>>>>}
>>>>></script>
>>>>><head id="Head1" runat="server">
>>>>><title>The html control attributes collection</title>
>>>>></head>
>>>>><body>
>>>>><form id="Form1" runat="server">
>>>>><h3>HtmlControl Attribute Collection Example</h3>
>>>>><br />
>>>>><span id="Message" enableviewstate="false" runat="server" />
>>>>></form>
>>>>></body>
>>>>></html>
>>>>>----------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>I don't think it's a bug to have to add an attribute
>>>>>programmatically,
>>>>>because the runat="server" tag only *declares* the html control
>>>>>as a programmable control.
>>>>>>
>>>>>To actually program it, you must use a script.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
>>>>>asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
>>>>>foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
>>>>>======================================
>>>>>"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message
>>>>>news:e0**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gb l...
>>>>>>Thanks, Juan.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>I already added similar code to a page event in my masterpage
>>>>>>code-beside.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> elHtml.Attributes.Add("xml:lang",
>>>>>>Resources.GlobalLang.ContentAudienceLang uage)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>To me, that is a temporary workaround. I still want to
>>>>>>understand whether the "eating" of the attribute I
>>>>>>originally
>>>>>>posted about is a bug, or if this is actually happening for a
>>>>>>reason.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>Cordially,
>>>>>>Lee
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message
>>>>>>news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx .gbl...
>>>>>>>Hi, Lee.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>re:
>>>>>>>!<html runat="server" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
>>>>>>>xml:lang="en-US" lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
>>>>>>>!no xml:lang attribute is rendered to the browser!
>>>>>>>!Remove the runat="server", and, voila, the xml:lang
>>>>>>>attribute is rendered.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Try this :
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>><html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" runat="server"
>>>>>>>id="someID">
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>><script runat="server">
>>>>>>>someID.Attributes("xml:lang") = "en-US"
>>>>>>></script>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
>>>>>>>asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
>>>>>>>foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
>>>>>>>===================================== =
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Lee C." <no****@spam.comwrote in message
>>>>>>>news:O%****************@TK2MSFTNGP03.ph x.gbl...
>>>>>>>>>I think I have discovered a bug in ASP.NET, related to I18N.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>In ASP.NET 3.5 I have to set runat="server" on the html
>>>>>>>>element to use explicit expressions. It appears that
>>>>>>>>ASP.NET
>>>>>>>>eats the xml:lang attribute on the html element when it is set
>>>>>>>>to runat="server".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Of course I want to replace the hardcoded "en-US" values with
>>>>>>>>(resource) explicit expressions; but, for
>>>>>>>>simplicity,
>>>>>>>>try this:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>><html runat="server" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
>>>>>>>>xml:lang="en-US" lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>...And you will find that no xml:lang attribute is rendered to
>>>>>>>>the browser! Remove the runat="server", and,
>>>>>>>>voila,
>>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>xml:lang attribute is rendered. :[
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>...Any ideas?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Cordially,
>>>>>>>>Lee
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
re:
!Setting it programmatically is an incorrect implementation
!when everything else on my page is set declaratively.
Is everything else on your pages set declaratively ?
Think about that for a second.
Why do we have inline scripts and code-behind, if "everything else is set declaratively" ?
In any case, we've certainly had enough of the "I think that..." back and forth.
Let's pause this discussion until the "bug" you reported is explained by the VS Dev team, OK ?
I, definitely, want to see what their explanation is. https://connect.microsoft.com/Visual...dbackID=353879
Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"Lee C." <no****@spam.comwrote in message news:eQ**************@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
Correct implementation? What do you mean by that?
I stated earlier on that I worked around it. It's still a bug. Setting it programmatically is an incorrect
implementation when everything else on my page is set declaratively. Microsoft offered declarative (explicit)
expressions, and I want to use them--anywhere and everywhere I choose in accordance with how they are stated to work.
When I find one that doesn't work, it's a bug; it's not a case of my doing something incorrectly. I love Microsoft
Visual Studio 2008; but, I won't tolerate bugs, or suck them up as, "Oh, I must be doing it wrong since it doesn't
work--even though it should."
, Lee
"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>re:
!ASP.NET should make it easy for me--and, it does,
!but there is a bug in the implementation.
The fact that you *can* set xml:lang programmatically, and that you *did* set it that way,
as I did, should tell you that it isn't much of a bug, but a question of using the correct implementation.
But, again, please let us know what the reply to your bug report is.
Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"Lee C." <no****@spam.comwrote in message news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>>Juan,
My use of language and culture in ASP.Net is a bit different than most. I have registered numerous
country-code-specific domains (mysite.ca, mysite.co.uk, mysite.com.au, etc.), which resolve to a singular "ASP.Net
Web Site". Nothing new there. However, I'm not doing the ASP.Net usual of letting the user agent (HTTP header
'accept-language') determine which language visitors get; I have the country-code TLD drive it. Also, it's not just
the language of my content that varies by cc TLD, it's the content, too; but, lang attributes play a critical role
in informing user agents (including search engine bots) for what "country" my content is aimed.
I have already found, first-hand, that the better of the major search engines use the cc TLD *and* the HTML
lang/xml:lang to determine whether a domain's documents (mysite.com.au/my-document.aspx) should show up when a
searcher searches with the 'Only from Australia' checkbox checked on Live.com, for example.
I'm not setting lang attributes for fun; I'm doing it to correct search engine results. ASP.NET should make it easy
for me--and, it does, but there is a bug in the implementation.
I appreciate your interest and effort to help.
, Lee
"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message news:uB**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
re:
!versus the spirit of what we're trying to accomplish: telling user agents who our
!intended audiences is, by language, as best we can...which is why I'm *also*
!setting lang in the HTTP headers and in page meta tags
What ? You don't set a language/culture in web.config, too ?
There's a use for overkill ! ( only kidding... )
I don't see too clearly the purpose of declaring a single language for a web page.
I do see a use for declaring specific language attributes in a *collection* of xml documents,
so that individual documents can be parsed for a particular language content.
But, ymmv...
I'd still be interested in knowing what the reply is to your bug report.
I bet you'll get back : "That's by design". <g>
Don't forget to let us all know what happens with that, OK ?
Thanks for an interesting discussion.
Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"Lee C." <no****@spam.comwrote in message news:en*************@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
Juan,
>
In theory, I like your idea of investigating "the standard"; but, in practice it has serious problems, as it often
does. First, you are referring to the XML standard, which is not as appropriate as HTML and XHTML standards.
Second, none of them are crystal clear on best practices for I18N. There is a lot of *legal* (by the standard)
syntax, that makes no sense, or makes some sense without being clearly best. The W3C site often states something
to the effect of, "some are doing this, some are doing that, on your own site, at least do something and only time
will tell what is best."
>
Check out these fine examples, which mirror my syntax, on the W3C site.
>
Internationalization Best Practices: Specifying Language in XHTML & HTML Content
http://www.w3.org/TR/i18n-html-tech-...0429.092928424
>
>
Tutorial: Declaring Language in XHTML and HTML (Draft)
http://www.w3.org/International/tuto...Slide0160.html
>
Juan, you wrote:
>But, it seems to me that setting xml:lang for the html tag's *attribute* values is unneeded, since they must
>be in English, and they must be attributes set to a language identifier, as defined by IETF RFC 4646
>(http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4646.txt).
>
You're not setting it for "the tag's *attribute*", you're setting it for the *contents*, all contents, of the
element (unless overridden by a sub-setting), which makes perfect sense so that I don't have to set it
individually on every child element--that is the power of a hierarchy! You seem to be focused on the technical,
with some misunderstanding, versus the spirit of what we're trying to accomplish: telling user agents who our
intended audiences is, by language, as best we can...which is why I'm *also* setting lang in the HTTP headers and
in page meta tags.
>
, Lee
>
>
"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message news:OY**************@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>re:
>!I found an MSDN document that explains why what I'm trying to do should work
>>
>Lee,
>>
>From :
>>
>http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/
>>
>"A special attribute named xml:lang may be inserted in documents to specify the
>language used in the contents and attribute values of any element in an XML document."
>>
>If anything, I can see xml:lang being declared for specific content values, for example :
>>
><p xml:lang="en-GB">What colour is it?</p>
><p xml:lang="en-US">What color is it?</p>
>>
>Then, an xml parser could identify regional US and British spellings but, given that *all* the attribute values
>must be in English in an html doc, what would be the purpose of declaring xml:lang for the html markup ?
>>
>A similar explanation is given here :
>http://www.simonstl.com/xmlprim/xmlupdate/atts.html
>>
>---000---
><SECTION>
><DESCRIPTION xml:lang="en">
>Caesar begins by describing the geography of Gaul.
></DESCRIPTION>
><QUOTE xml:lang="la">
>Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres, quarum unam incolunt Belgae,
>aliam Aquitani, tertiam qui ipsorum lingua Celtae, nostra Galli appellantur.
></QUOTE>
>---000---
>>
>That's perfectly good usage for xml:lang, as a parser could selectively identify content in different languages.
>>
>But, it seems to me that setting xml:lang for the html tag's *attribute* values is unneeded, since they must
>be in English, and they must be attributes set to a language identifier, as defined by IETF RFC 4646
>(http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4646.txt).
>>
>So, I think that requisite pretty well establishes the futility
>of setting xml:lang for all the attributes in an html document.
>>
>If anything, it seems that the xml:lang attribute is included in the
>html server tag for compatibility purposes, or perhaps out of ignorance.
>>
>If there's a need to identify that the *contents* of a particular markup tag are in a
>specific language, that identification can be included in the tag itself, for example :
>>
><div lang="MX-es" xml:lang="MX-es">
>Algo de contenido en espaņol mejicano.
></div>
>>
>That makes a lot more sense than setting xml:lang for the attribute values in the html tag.
>>
>>
>>
>Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
>asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
>foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
>======================================
>"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>>>I found an MSDN document that explains why what I'm trying to do should work.
>>>
>>ASP.NET Web Server Controls Overview
>>http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/zsyt68f1.aspx
>>>
>>Note the distinction between HTML Server Controls and Web Server Controls in the document. Also, note the
>>explanation
>>of "pass-through" attributes for HTML Server Controls.
>>>
>>Two quotes that sum it up:
>> 1. Any HTML element on a page can be converted to an HTML server control by adding the attribute
>>runat="server".
>> 2. You can add any attributes you need to an HTML server control and the page framework will render them
>>without
>>any change in functionality.
>>>
>>, Lee
>>>
>>"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message news:Oe**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>Juan,
>>>>
>>>I appreciate your trying to help, but you're wrong, and you are the one who is confused. :]
>>>>
>>>I am *not* disputing that when inserted programmatically, the xml:lang attribute renders to the browser. I did
>>>just
>>>that as a work around (right after I discovered this bug); but, I should not have to.
>>>>
>>>I am *not* confusing html attributes with runat="server" attributes, as you call them. Using your logic, none
>>>of the
>>>declarative (html) attributes should render to the browser after I add the runat="server" in ASP.NET; yet all
>>>of them
>>>(xmlns, lang, and dir) do--except xml:lang.
>>>>
>>>I started with an html element with 4 attributes (xmlns, lang, xml:lang, and dir) all set declaratively. With
>>>*no*
>>>5th attribute of runat="server", all 4 attributes render. If I add the 5th attribute of runat="server", which
>>>does
>>>not and should not render, I no longer get all 4 attributes that should render (xmlns, lang, xml:lang, and
>>>dir), I
>>>only get 3 (xmlns, lang, and dir). My logic says I should get 4, your says I should get 3? It would be 4 or
>>>0, and
>>>4 is right. Not 0...and not 3.
>>>>
>>>When I add runat="server", it does not magically make the xml:lang attribute a server-side attribute, while
>>>keeping
>>>the other three attributes as "html" attributes. All four are still "html" attributes--which should render.
>>>>
>>>I think the simplification of my example may be confusing you. It is odd that, in my example, I set
>>>runat="server"
>>>but do not have any server-side attributes. (I have all 4 as literal strings, for simplicity of an example.)
>>>Well,
>>>in my real-world use, I do have server-side attributes, which I want set declaratively (no code-beside and no
>>>script). I have:
>>>>
>>><html runat="server" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
>>> xml:lang="<%$ Resources:GlobalLang, ContentAudienceLanguage %>"
>>> lang="<%$ Resources:GlobalLang, ContentAudienceLanguage %>"
>>> dir="ltr">
>>>>
>>>Both of those declarative explicit localization expressions should work without my having to write any more
>>>"procedural" (code-beside) code or script. It actually does work fine for the lang attribute--as it should;
>>>but not
>>>for the xml:lang attribute--***which is a bug***.
>>>>
>>>, Lee
>>>>
>>>"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message news:u0**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>>>>re:
>>>>!I think you are misunderstanding, Juan.
>>>>>
>>>>Well, I think you are misunderstanding *me*.
>>>>>
>>>>re:
>>>>!I had the xml:lang attribute in the html tag (declaratively), like this:
>>>>>...and it renders to the browser, as it should.
>>>>>
>>>>Yes, because it's standard html.
>>>>>
>>>>re:
>>>>!If I simply add runat="server"
>>>>>
>>>>That declares the control to run server side.
>>>>>
>>>>For any attribute to be programmed server-side you need a script,
>>>>just as you need a script to modify any server control's attributes.
>>>>>
>>>>Did you run the sample page I sent ?
>>>>>
>>>>It iterates throught the attributes for the html server control,
>>>>and shows that the xml:lang attribute *is* added programmatically.
>>>>>
>>>>re:
>>>>!If I simply add runat="server", leaving in the xml:lang attribute that
>>>>!renders without runat="server", all of the (declarative) attributes are
>>>>!rendered to the browser--except the xml:lang attribute! That is a bug.
>>>>>
>>>>I think you're confusing html attributes with runat="server" attributes.
>>>>>
>>>>Html attributes can be inserted in normal html.
>>>>Server-side attributes must be inserted in code.
>>>>>
>>>>Maybe I'm not explaining this as well as I should.
>>>>Try to get someone else's opinion on this matter, if you don't accept mine.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
>>>>asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
>>>>foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
>>>>======================================
>>>>"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message news:en**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>I think you are misunderstanding, Juan. I had the xml:lang attribute in the html tag (declaratively), like
>>>>>>this:
>>>>>>
>>>>><html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en-US" lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
>>>>>>
>>>>>...and it renders to the browser, as it should.
>>>>>>
>>>>>If I simply add runat="server", leaving in the xml:lang attribute that renders without runat="server", all of
>>>>>the
>>>>>(declarative) attributes are rendered to the browser--except the xml:lang attribute! That is a bug.
>>>>>>
>>>>><html runat="server" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en-US" lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
>>>>>>
>>>>>Cordially,
>>>>>Lee
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message news:ey**************@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>Here's a full example which shows that the xml:lang attribute is added programmatically :
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>attributes.aspx:
>>>>>>----------------------
>>>>>><%@ Page Language="C#" AutoEventWireup="True" %>
>>>>>><html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" runat="server" id="Myid" >
>>>>>><script language="C#" runat="server">
>>>>>>void Page_Load(Object sender, EventArgs e)
>>>>>>{
>>>>>>Myid.Attributes.Add("xml:lang", "es");
>>>>>>Message.InnerHtml = "<h4>The html control attributes collection contains:</h4>";
>>>>>>IEnumerator keys = Myid.Attributes.Keys.GetEnumerator();
>>>>>>while (keys.MoveNext())
>>>>>>{
>>>>>>String key = (String)keys.Current;
>>>>>>Message.InnerHtml += key + "=" + Myid.Attributes[key] + "<br />";
>>>>>>}
>>>>>>}
>>>>>></script>
>>>>>><head id="Head1" runat="server">
>>>>>><title>The html control attributes collection</title>
>>>>>></head>
>>>>>><body>
>>>>>><form id="Form1" runat="server">
>>>>>><h3>HtmlControl Attribute Collection Example</h3>
>>>>>><br />
>>>>>><span id="Message" enableviewstate="false" runat="server" />
>>>>>></form>
>>>>>></body>
>>>>>></html>
>>>>>>----------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>I don't think it's a bug to have to add an attribute programmatically,
>>>>>>because the runat="server" tag only *declares* the html control as a programmable control.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>To actually program it, you must use a script.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
>>>>>>asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
>>>>>>foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
>>>>>>======================================
>>>>>>"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message news:e0**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>Thanks, Juan.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I already added similar code to a page event in my masterpage code-beside.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> elHtml.Attributes.Add("xml:lang", Resources.GlobalLang.ContentAudienceLanguage)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>To me, that is a temporary workaround. I still want to understand whether the "eating" of the attribute I
>>>>>>>originally
>>>>>>>posted about is a bug, or if this is actually happening for a reason.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Cordially,
>>>>>>>Lee
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message
>>>>>>>news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP03.ph x.gbl...
>>>>>>>>Hi, Lee.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>re:
>>>>>>>>!<html runat="server" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en-US" lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
>>>>>>>>!no xml:lang attribute is rendered to the browser!
>>>>>>>>!Remove the runat="server", and, voila, the xml:lang attribute is rendered.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Try this :
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>><html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" runat="server" id="someID">
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>><script runat="server">
>>>>>>>>someID.Attributes("xml:lang") = "en-US"
>>>>>>>></script>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
>>>>>>>>asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
>>>>>>>>foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
>>>>>>>>==================================== ==
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"Lee C." <no****@spam.comwrote in message news:O%****************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>>>I think I have discovered a bug in ASP.NET, related to I18N.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>In ASP.NET 3.5 I have to set runat="server" on the html element to use explicit expressions. It appears
>>>>>>>>>that
>>>>>>>>>ASP.NET
>>>>>>>>>eats the xml:lang attribute on the html element when it is set to runat="server".
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Of course I want to replace the hardcoded "en-US" values with (resource) explicit expressions; but, for
>>>>>>>>>simplicity,
>>>>>>>>>try this:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>><html runat="server" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en-US" lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>...And you will find that no xml:lang attribute is rendered to the browser! Remove the runat="server",
>>>>>>>>>and,
>>>>>>>>>voila,
>>>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>>xml:lang attribute is rendered. :[
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>...Any ideas?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Cordially,
>>>>>>>>>Lee
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Juan,
You clearly don't understand, or have not thought about *why* the ASP.NET
team gave us separate places for "design"/content (.aspx files) and
"procedure"/code (.aspx.vb). The ability to separate the 2 was a huge
feature for ASP.NET, from classic ASP.
Even though the particular content affected by the bug I found is not
*visible* Web browser content, it is content none-the-less. Thus, its
wiring belongs in the content file (.aspx)--not the code file (.aspx.vb).
Sure, I could throw in some classic ASP style, and put a script element in
my .aspx page to keep the wiring in the realm of the designer, but that
changes nothing, because it's still programming, which should be done by
programmers in the same place as every other line of programming in my site:
the .aspx.vb pages. Just as badly, it means I'm achieving my I18N wiring in
multiple ways, instead of being consistent.
By everything else, I meant all other I18N resource "wirings". (But, I take
pride in how "light" my .aspx.vb files are--and how clean my .aspx files
are, too.) You are obviously fine with having the designer(s) to set up and
manage *most* of the I18N wirings, *and* having programmers to do some, too,
(as they should not be doing) since bugs are not bugs for you if there is a
workaround that violates good design practices and principles. I'm not fine
with that.
Are you really an ASP.NET MVP? (Classic ASP, maybe?)
, Lee
"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message
news:ur**************@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
re:
!Setting it programmatically is an incorrect implementation
!when everything else on my page is set declaratively.
Is everything else on your pages set declaratively ?
Think about that for a second.
Why do we have inline scripts and code-behind, if "everything else is set
declaratively" ?
In any case, we've certainly had enough of the "I think that..." back and
forth.
Let's pause this discussion until the "bug" you reported is explained by
the VS Dev team, OK ?
I, definitely, want to see what their explanation is.
https://connect.microsoft.com/Visual...dbackID=353879
Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"Lee C." <no****@spam.comwrote in message
news:eQ**************@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>Correct implementation? What do you mean by that?
I stated earlier on that I worked around it. It's still a bug. Setting
it programmatically is an incorrect implementation when everything else
on my page is set declaratively. Microsoft offered declarative
(explicit) expressions, and I want to use them--anywhere and everywhere I
choose in accordance with how they are stated to work. When I find one
that doesn't work, it's a bug; it's not a case of my doing something
incorrectly. I love Microsoft Visual Studio 2008; but, I won't tolerate
bugs, or suck them up as, "Oh, I must be doing it wrong since it doesn't
work--even though it should."
, Lee
"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>>re:
!ASP.NET should make it easy for me--and, it does,
!but there is a bug in the implementation.
The fact that you *can* set xml:lang programmatically, and that you
*did* set it that way,
as I did, should tell you that it isn't much of a bug, but a question of
using the correct implementation.
But, again, please let us know what the reply to your bug report is.
Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"Lee C." <no****@spam.comwrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl.. .
Juan,
My use of language and culture in ASP.Net is a bit different than most.
I have registered numerous country-code-specific domains (mysite.ca,
mysite.co.uk, mysite.com.au, etc.), which resolve to a singular
"ASP.Net Web Site". Nothing new there. However, I'm not doing the
ASP.Net usual of letting the user agent (HTTP header 'accept-language')
determine which language visitors get; I have the country-code TLD
drive it. Also, it's not just the language of my content that varies
by cc TLD, it's the content, too; but, lang attributes play a critical
role in informing user agents (including search engine bots) for what
"country" my content is aimed.
I have already found, first-hand, that the better of the major search
engines use the cc TLD *and* the HTML lang/xml:lang to determine
whether a domain's documents (mysite.com.au/my-document.aspx) should
show up when a searcher searches with the 'Only from Australia'
checkbox checked on Live.com, for example.
I'm not setting lang attributes for fun; I'm doing it to correct search
engine results. ASP.NET should make it easy for me--and, it does, but
there is a bug in the implementation.
I appreciate your interest and effort to help.
, Lee
"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message
news:uB**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
re:
!versus the spirit of what we're trying to accomplish: telling user
agents who our
!intended audiences is, by language, as best we can...which is why
I'm *also*
!setting lang in the HTTP headers and in page meta tags
>
What ? You don't set a language/culture in web.config, too ?
There's a use for overkill ! ( only kidding... )
>
I don't see too clearly the purpose of declaring a single language for
a web page.
>
I do see a use for declaring specific language attributes in a
*collection* of xml documents,
so that individual documents can be parsed for a particular language
content.
>
But, ymmv...
>
I'd still be interested in knowing what the reply is to your bug
report.
I bet you'll get back : "That's by design". <g>
>
Don't forget to let us all know what happens with that, OK ?
Thanks for an interesting discussion.
>
>
>
>
Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"Lee C." <no****@spam.comwrote in message
news:en*************@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>Juan,
>>
>In theory, I like your idea of investigating "the standard"; but, in
>practice it has serious problems, as it often does. First, you are
>referring to the XML standard, which is not as appropriate as HTML
>and XHTML standards. Second, none of them are crystal clear on best
>practices for I18N. There is a lot of *legal* (by the standard)
>syntax, that makes no sense, or makes some sense without being
>clearly best. The W3C site often states something to the effect of,
>"some are doing this, some are doing that, on your own site, at least
>do something and only time will tell what is best."
>>
>Check out these fine examples, which mirror my syntax, on the W3C
>site.
>>
>Internationalization Best Practices: Specifying Language in XHTML &
>HTML Content
>http://www.w3.org/TR/i18n-html-tech-...0429.092928424
>>
>>
>Tutorial: Declaring Language in XHTML and HTML (Draft)
>http://www.w3.org/International/tuto...Slide0160.html
>>
>Juan, you wrote:
>>But, it seems to me that setting xml:lang for the html tag's
>>*attribute* values is unneeded, since they must
>>be in English, and they must be attributes set to a language
>>identifier, as defined by IETF RFC 4646
>>(http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4646.txt).
>>
>You're not setting it for "the tag's *attribute*", you're setting it
>for the *contents*, all contents, of the element (unless overridden
>by a sub-setting), which makes perfect sense so that I don't have to
>set it individually on every child element--that is the power of a
>hierarchy! You seem to be focused on the technical, with some
>misunderstanding, versus the spirit of what we're trying to
>accomplish: telling user agents who our intended audiences is, by
>language, as best we can...which is why I'm *also* setting lang in
>the HTTP headers and in page meta tags.
>>
>, Lee
>>
>>
>"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message
>news:OY**************@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl. ..
>>re:
>>!I found an MSDN document that explains why what I'm trying to do
>>should work
>>>
>>Lee,
>>>
>>From :
>>>
>>http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/
>>>
>>"A special attribute named xml:lang may be inserted in documents to
>>specify the
>>language used in the contents and attribute values of any element in
>>an XML document."
>>>
>>If anything, I can see xml:lang being declared for specific content
>>values, for example :
>>>
>><p xml:lang="en-GB">What colour is it?</p>
>><p xml:lang="en-US">What color is it?</p>
>>>
>>Then, an xml parser could identify regional US and British spellings
>>but, given that *all* the attribute values
>>must be in English in an html doc, what would be the purpose of
>>declaring xml:lang for the html markup ?
>>>
>>A similar explanation is given here :
>>http://www.simonstl.com/xmlprim/xmlupdate/atts.html
>>>
>>---000---
>><SECTION>
>><DESCRIPTION xml:lang="en">
>>Caesar begins by describing the geography of Gaul.
>></DESCRIPTION>
>><QUOTE xml:lang="la">
>>Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres, quarum unam incolunt Belgae,
>>aliam Aquitani, tertiam qui ipsorum lingua Celtae, nostra Galli
>>appellantur.
>></QUOTE>
>>---000---
>>>
>>That's perfectly good usage for xml:lang, as a parser could
>>selectively identify content in different languages.
>>>
>>But, it seems to me that setting xml:lang for the html tag's
>>*attribute* values is unneeded, since they must
>>be in English, and they must be attributes set to a language
>>identifier, as defined by IETF RFC 4646
>>(http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4646.txt).
>>>
>>So, I think that requisite pretty well establishes the futility
>>of setting xml:lang for all the attributes in an html document.
>>>
>>If anything, it seems that the xml:lang attribute is included in the
>>html server tag for compatibility purposes, or perhaps out of
>>ignorance.
>>>
>>If there's a need to identify that the *contents* of a particular
>>markup tag are in a
>>specific language, that identification can be included in the tag
>>itself, for example :
>>>
>><div lang="MX-es" xml:lang="MX-es">
>>Algo de contenido en espaņol mejicano.
>></div>
>>>
>>That makes a lot more sense than setting xml:lang for the attribute
>>values in the html tag.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
>>asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
>>foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
>>======================================
>>"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message
>>news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl ...
>>>>I found an MSDN document that explains why what I'm trying to do
>>>>should work.
>>>>
>>>ASP.NET Web Server Controls Overview
>>>http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/zsyt68f1.aspx
>>>>
>>>Note the distinction between HTML Server Controls and Web Server
>>>Controls in the document. Also, note the explanation
>>>of "pass-through" attributes for HTML Server Controls.
>>>>
>>>Two quotes that sum it up:
>>> 1. Any HTML element on a page can be converted to an HTML server
>>>control by adding the attribute runat="server".
>>> 2. You can add any attributes you need to an HTML server control
>>>and the page framework will render them without
>>>any change in functionality.
>>>>
>>>, Lee
>>>>
>>>"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message
>>>news:Oe**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl. ..
>>>>Juan,
>>>>>
>>>>I appreciate your trying to help, but you're wrong, and you are
>>>>the one who is confused. :]
>>>>>
>>>>I am *not* disputing that when inserted programmatically, the
>>>>xml:lang attribute renders to the browser. I did just
>>>>that as a work around (right after I discovered this bug); but, I
>>>>should not have to.
>>>>>
>>>>I am *not* confusing html attributes with runat="server"
>>>>attributes, as you call them. Using your logic, none of the
>>>>declarative (html) attributes should render to the browser after I
>>>>add the runat="server" in ASP.NET; yet all of them
>>>>(xmlns, lang, and dir) do--except xml:lang.
>>>>>
>>>>I started with an html element with 4 attributes (xmlns, lang,
>>>>xml:lang, and dir) all set declaratively. With *no*
>>>>5th attribute of runat="server", all 4 attributes render. If I
>>>>add the 5th attribute of runat="server", which does
>>>>not and should not render, I no longer get all 4 attributes that
>>>>should render (xmlns, lang, xml:lang, and dir), I
>>>>only get 3 (xmlns, lang, and dir). My logic says I should get 4,
>>>>your says I should get 3? It would be 4 or 0, and
>>>>4 is right. Not 0...and not 3.
>>>>>
>>>>When I add runat="server", it does not magically make the xml:lang
>>>>attribute a server-side attribute, while keeping
>>>>the other three attributes as "html" attributes. All four are
>>>>still "html" attributes--which should render.
>>>>>
>>>>I think the simplification of my example may be confusing you. It
>>>>is odd that, in my example, I set runat="server"
>>>>but do not have any server-side attributes. (I have all 4 as
>>>>literal strings, for simplicity of an example.) Well,
>>>>in my real-world use, I do have server-side attributes, which I
>>>>want set declaratively (no code-beside and no
>>>>script). I have:
>>>>>
>>>><html runat="server" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
>>>> xml:lang="<%$ Resources:GlobalLang, ContentAudienceLanguage %>"
>>>> lang="<%$ Resources:GlobalLang, ContentAudienceLanguage %>"
>>>> dir="ltr">
>>>>>
>>>>Both of those declarative explicit localization expressions should
>>>>work without my having to write any more
>>>>"procedural" (code-beside) code or script. It actually does work
>>>>fine for the lang attribute--as it should; but not
>>>>for the xml:lang attribute--***which is a bug***.
>>>>>
>>>>, Lee
>>>>>
>>>>"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message
>>>>news:u0**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl ...
>>>>>re:
>>>>>!I think you are misunderstanding, Juan.
>>>>>>
>>>>>Well, I think you are misunderstanding *me*.
>>>>>>
>>>>>re:
>>>>>!I had the xml:lang attribute in the html tag (declaratively),
>>>>>like this:
>>>>>>...and it renders to the browser, as it should.
>>>>>>
>>>>>Yes, because it's standard html.
>>>>>>
>>>>>re:
>>>>>!If I simply add runat="server"
>>>>>>
>>>>>That declares the control to run server side.
>>>>>>
>>>>>For any attribute to be programmed server-side you need a script,
>>>>>just as you need a script to modify any server control's
>>>>>attributes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>Did you run the sample page I sent ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>It iterates throught the attributes for the html server control,
>>>>>and shows that the xml:lang attribute *is* added
>>>>>programmatically.
>>>>>>
>>>>>re:
>>>>>!If I simply add runat="server", leaving in the xml:lang
>>>>>attribute that
>>>>>!renders without runat="server", all of the (declarative)
>>>>>attributes are
>>>>>!rendered to the browser--except the xml:lang attribute! That
>>>>>is a bug.
>>>>>>
>>>>>I think you're confusing html attributes with runat="server"
>>>>>attributes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>Html attributes can be inserted in normal html.
>>>>>Server-side attributes must be inserted in code.
>>>>>>
>>>>>Maybe I'm not explaining this as well as I should.
>>>>>Try to get someone else's opinion on this matter, if you don't
>>>>>accept mine.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
>>>>>asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
>>>>>foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
>>>>>======================================
>>>>>"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message
>>>>>news:en**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gb l...
>>>>>>>I think you are misunderstanding, Juan. I had the xml:lang
>>>>>>>attribute in the html tag (declaratively), like this:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>><html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en-US"
>>>>>>lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>...and it renders to the browser, as it should.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>If I simply add runat="server", leaving in the xml:lang
>>>>>>attribute that renders without runat="server", all of the
>>>>>>(declarative) attributes are rendered to the browser--except the
>>>>>>xml:lang attribute! That is a bug.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>><html runat="server" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
>>>>>>xml:lang="en-US" lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>Cordially,
>>>>>>Lee
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message
>>>>>>news:ey**************@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.g bl...
>>>>>>>Here's a full example which shows that the xml:lang attribute
>>>>>>>is added programmatically :
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>attributes.aspx:
>>>>>>>----------------------
>>>>>>><%@ Page Language="C#" AutoEventWireup="True" %>
>>>>>>><html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" runat="server"
>>>>>>>id="Myid" >
>>>>>>><script language="C#" runat="server">
>>>>>>>void Page_Load(Object sender, EventArgs e)
>>>>>>>{
>>>>>>>Myid.Attributes.Add("xml:lang", "es");
>>>>>>>Message.InnerHtml = "<h4>The html control attributes collection
>>>>>>>contains:</h4>";
>>>>>>>IEnumerator keys = Myid.Attributes.Keys.GetEnumerator();
>>>>>>>while (keys.MoveNext())
>>>>>>>{
>>>>>>>String key = (String)keys.Current;
>>>>>>>Message.InnerHtml += key + "=" + Myid.Attributes[key] + "<br
>>>>>>>/>";
>>>>>>>}
>>>>>>>}
>>>>>>></script>
>>>>>>><head id="Head1" runat="server">
>>>>>>><title>The html control attributes collection</title>
>>>>>>></head>
>>>>>>><body>
>>>>>>><form id="Form1" runat="server">
>>>>>>><h3>HtmlControl Attribute Collection Example</h3>
>>>>>>><br />
>>>>>>><span id="Message" enableviewstate="false" runat="server" />
>>>>>>></form>
>>>>>>></body>
>>>>>>></html>
>>>>>>>----------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I don't think it's a bug to have to add an attribute
>>>>>>>programmatically,
>>>>>>>because the runat="server" tag only *declares* the html control
>>>>>>>as a programmable control.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>To actually program it, you must use a script.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
>>>>>>>asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
>>>>>>>foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
>>>>>>>===================================== =
>>>>>>>"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message
>>>>>>>news:e0**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx. gbl...
>>>>>>>>Thanks, Juan.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I already added similar code to a page event in my masterpage
>>>>>>>>code-beside.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> elHtml.Attributes.Add("xml:lang",
>>>>>>>>Resources.GlobalLang.ContentAudienceLa nguage)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>To me, that is a temporary workaround. I still want to
>>>>>>>>understand whether the "eating" of the attribute I
>>>>>>>>originally
>>>>>>>>posted about is a bug, or if this is actually happening for a
>>>>>>>>reason.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Cordially,
>>>>>>>>Lee
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message
>>>>>>>>news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP03.p hx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>>Hi, Lee.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>re:
>>>>>>>>>!<html runat="server" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
>>>>>>>>>xml:lang="en-US" lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
>>>>>>>>>!no xml:lang attribute is rendered to the browser!
>>>>>>>>>!Remove the runat="server", and, voila, the xml:lang
>>>>>>>>>attribute is rendered.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Try this :
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>><html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" runat="server"
>>>>>>>>>id="someID">
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>><script runat="server">
>>>>>>>>>someID.Attributes("xml:lang") = "en-US"
>>>>>>>>></script>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
>>>>>>>>>asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
>>>>>>>>>foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
>>>>>>>>>===================================== =
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>"Lee C." <no****@spam.comwrote in message
>>>>>>>>>news:O%****************@TK2MSFTNGP03. phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>>>>I think I have discovered a bug in ASP.NET, related to I18N.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>In ASP.NET 3.5 I have to set runat="server" on the html
>>>>>>>>>>element to use explicit expressions. It appears that
>>>>>>>>>>ASP.NET
>>>>>>>>>>eats the xml:lang attribute on the html element when it is
>>>>>>>>>>set to runat="server".
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Of course I want to replace the hardcoded "en-US" values
>>>>>>>>>>with (resource) explicit expressions; but, for
>>>>>>>>>>simplicity,
>>>>>>>>>>try this:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>><html runat="server" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
>>>>>>>>>>xml:lang="en-US" lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>...And you will find that no xml:lang attribute is rendered
>>>>>>>>>>to the browser! Remove the runat="server", and,
>>>>>>>>>>voila,
>>>>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>>>xml:lang attribute is rendered. :[
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>...Any ideas?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Cordially,
>>>>>>>>>>Lee
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
re:
!You clearly don't understand
That "clearly" is doubted by me.
How many times have I told you that I *do* understand what you're saying
but that I'd like to see the bug response team's reply to your "bug report" ?
How many times will you repeat that I "don't understand", when I do,
although I disagree with the premises you're putting forth ?
re:
!Are you really an ASP.NET MVP? (Classic ASP, maybe?)
The answer to that question is in my signature.
Maybe you haven't read any of the ASP.NET books I've co-authored ?
Good luck with the response to your bug report.
Please remember to post the result here.
Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"Lee C." <no****@spam.comwrote in message news:eE**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
Juan,
You clearly don't understand, or have not thought about *why* the ASP.NET team gave us separate places for
"design"/content (.aspx files) and "procedure"/code (.aspx.vb). The ability to separate the 2 was a huge feature for
ASP.NET, from classic ASP.
Even though the particular content affected by the bug I found is not *visible* Web browser content, it is content
none-the-less. Thus, its wiring belongs in the content file (.aspx)--not the code file (.aspx.vb). Sure, I could
throw in some classic ASP style, and put a script element in my .aspx page to keep the wiring in the realm of the
designer, but that changes nothing, because it's still programming, which should be done by programmers in the same
place as every other line of programming in my site: the .aspx.vb pages. Just as badly, it means I'm achieving my
I18N wiring in multiple ways, instead of being consistent.
By everything else, I meant all other I18N resource "wirings". (But, I take pride in how "light" my .aspx.vb files
are--and how clean my .aspx files are, too.) You are obviously fine with having the designer(s) to set up and manage
*most* of the I18N wirings, *and* having programmers to do some, too, (as they should not be doing) since bugs are not
bugs for you if there is a workaround that violates good design practices and principles. I'm not fine with that.
Are you really an ASP.NET MVP? (Classic ASP, maybe?)
, Lee
"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message news:ur**************@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>re:
!Setting it programmatically is an incorrect implementation
!when everything else on my page is set declaratively.
Is everything else on your pages set declaratively ?
Think about that for a second.
Why do we have inline scripts and code-behind, if "everything else is set declaratively" ?
In any case, we've certainly had enough of the "I think that..." back and forth.
Let's pause this discussion until the "bug" you reported is explained by the VS Dev team, OK ?
I, definitely, want to see what their explanation is.
https://connect.microsoft.com/Visual...dbackID=353879
Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"Lee C." <no****@spam.comwrote in message news:eQ**************@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>Correct implementation? What do you mean by that?
I stated earlier on that I worked around it. It's still a bug. Setting it programmatically is an incorrect
implementation when everything else on my page is set declaratively. Microsoft offered declarative (explicit)
expressions, and I want to use them--anywhere and everywhere I choose in accordance with how they are stated to
work. When I find one that doesn't work, it's a bug; it's not a case of my doing something incorrectly. I love
Microsoft Visual Studio 2008; but, I won't tolerate bugs, or suck them up as, "Oh, I must be doing it wrong since it
doesn't work--even though it should."
, Lee
"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
re:
!ASP.NET should make it easy for me--and, it does,
!but there is a bug in the implementation.
The fact that you *can* set xml:lang programmatically, and that you *did* set it that way,
as I did, should tell you that it isn't much of a bug, but a question of using the correct implementation.
But, again, please let us know what the reply to your bug report is.
Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"Lee C." <no****@spam.comwrote in message news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
Juan,
>
My use of language and culture in ASP.Net is a bit different than most. I have registered numerous
country-code-specific domains (mysite.ca, mysite.co.uk, mysite.com.au, etc.), which resolve to a singular "ASP.Net
Web Site". Nothing new there. However, I'm not doing the ASP.Net usual of letting the user agent (HTTP header
'accept-language') determine which language visitors get; I have the country-code TLD drive it. Also, it's not
just the language of my content that varies by cc TLD, it's the content, too; but, lang attributes play a critical
role in informing user agents (including search engine bots) for what "country" my content is aimed.
>
I have already found, first-hand, that the better of the major search engines use the cc TLD *and* the HTML
lang/xml:lang to determine whether a domain's documents (mysite.com.au/my-document.aspx) should show up when a
searcher searches with the 'Only from Australia' checkbox checked on Live.com, for example.
>
I'm not setting lang attributes for fun; I'm doing it to correct search engine results. ASP.NET should make it
easy for me--and, it does, but there is a bug in the implementation.
>
I appreciate your interest and effort to help.
>
, Lee
>
>
"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message news:uB**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>re:
>!versus the spirit of what we're trying to accomplish: telling user agents who our
>!intended audiences is, by language, as best we can...which is why I'm *also*
>!setting lang in the HTTP headers and in page meta tags
>>
>What ? You don't set a language/culture in web.config, too ?
>There's a use for overkill ! ( only kidding... )
>>
>I don't see too clearly the purpose of declaring a single language for a web page.
>>
>I do see a use for declaring specific language attributes in a *collection* of xml documents,
>so that individual documents can be parsed for a particular language content.
>>
>But, ymmv...
>>
>I'd still be interested in knowing what the reply is to your bug report.
>I bet you'll get back : "That's by design". <g>
>>
>Don't forget to let us all know what happens with that, OK ?
>Thanks for an interesting discussion.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
>asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
>foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
>======================================
>"Lee C." <no****@spam.comwrote in message news:en*************@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>Juan,
>>>
>>In theory, I like your idea of investigating "the standard"; but, in practice it has serious problems, as it
>>often does. First, you are referring to the XML standard, which is not as appropriate as HTML and XHTML
>>standards. Second, none of them are crystal clear on best practices for I18N. There is a lot of *legal* (by the
>>standard) syntax, that makes no sense, or makes some sense without being clearly best. The W3C site often
>>states something to the effect of, "some are doing this, some are doing that, on your own site, at least do
>>something and only time will tell what is best."
>>>
>>Check out these fine examples, which mirror my syntax, on the W3C site.
>>>
>>Internationalization Best Practices: Specifying Language in XHTML & HTML Content
>>http://www.w3.org/TR/i18n-html-tech-...0429.092928424
>>>
>>>
>>Tutorial: Declaring Language in XHTML and HTML (Draft)
>>http://www.w3.org/International/tuto...Slide0160.html
>>>
>>Juan, you wrote:
>>>But, it seems to me that setting xml:lang for the html tag's *attribute* values is unneeded, since they must
>>>be in English, and they must be attributes set to a language identifier, as defined by IETF RFC 4646
>>>(http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4646.txt).
>>>
>>You're not setting it for "the tag's *attribute*", you're setting it for the *contents*, all contents, of the
>>element (unless overridden by a sub-setting), which makes perfect sense so that I don't have to set it
>>individually on every child element--that is the power of a hierarchy! You seem to be focused on the technical,
>>with some misunderstanding, versus the spirit of what we're trying to accomplish: telling user agents who our
>>intended audiences is, by language, as best we can...which is why I'm *also* setting lang in the HTTP headers
>>and in page meta tags.
>>>
>>, Lee
>>>
>>>
>>"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message news:OY**************@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>>>re:
>>>!I found an MSDN document that explains why what I'm trying to do should work
>>>>
>>>Lee,
>>>>
>>>From :
>>>>
>>>http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/
>>>>
>>>"A special attribute named xml:lang may be inserted in documents to specify the
>>>language used in the contents and attribute values of any element in an XML document."
>>>>
>>>If anything, I can see xml:lang being declared for specific content values, for example :
>>>>
>>><p xml:lang="en-GB">What colour is it?</p>
>>><p xml:lang="en-US">What color is it?</p>
>>>>
>>>Then, an xml parser could identify regional US and British spellings but, given that *all* the attribute values
>>>must be in English in an html doc, what would be the purpose of declaring xml:lang for the html markup ?
>>>>
>>>A similar explanation is given here :
>>>http://www.simonstl.com/xmlprim/xmlupdate/atts.html
>>>>
>>>---000---
>>><SECTION>
>>><DESCRIPTION xml:lang="en">
>>>Caesar begins by describing the geography of Gaul.
>>></DESCRIPTION>
>>><QUOTE xml:lang="la">
>>>Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres, quarum unam incolunt Belgae,
>>>aliam Aquitani, tertiam qui ipsorum lingua Celtae, nostra Galli appellantur.
>>></QUOTE>
>>>---000---
>>>>
>>>That's perfectly good usage for xml:lang, as a parser could selectively identify content in different
>>>languages.
>>>>
>>>But, it seems to me that setting xml:lang for the html tag's *attribute* values is unneeded, since they must
>>>be in English, and they must be attributes set to a language identifier, as defined by IETF RFC 4646
>>>(http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4646.txt).
>>>>
>>>So, I think that requisite pretty well establishes the futility
>>>of setting xml:lang for all the attributes in an html document.
>>>>
>>>If anything, it seems that the xml:lang attribute is included in the
>>>html server tag for compatibility purposes, or perhaps out of ignorance.
>>>>
>>>If there's a need to identify that the *contents* of a particular markup tag are in a
>>>specific language, that identification can be included in the tag itself, for example :
>>>>
>>><div lang="MX-es" xml:lang="MX-es">
>>>Algo de contenido en espaņol mejicano.
>>></div>
>>>>
>>>That makes a lot more sense than setting xml:lang for the attribute values in the html tag.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
>>>asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
>>>foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
>>>======================================
>>>"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>>>>>I found an MSDN document that explains why what I'm trying to do should work.
>>>>>
>>>>ASP.NET Web Server Controls Overview
>>>>http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/zsyt68f1.aspx
>>>>>
>>>>Note the distinction between HTML Server Controls and Web Server Controls in the document. Also, note the
>>>>explanation
>>>>of "pass-through" attributes for HTML Server Controls.
>>>>>
>>>>Two quotes that sum it up:
>>>> 1. Any HTML element on a page can be converted to an HTML server control by adding the attribute
>>>>runat="server".
>>>> 2. You can add any attributes you need to an HTML server control and the page framework will render them
>>>>without
>>>>any change in functionality.
>>>>>
>>>>, Lee
>>>>>
>>>>"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message news:Oe**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>>>Juan,
>>>>>>
>>>>>I appreciate your trying to help, but you're wrong, and you are the one who is confused. :]
>>>>>>
>>>>>I am *not* disputing that when inserted programmatically, the xml:lang attribute renders to the browser. I
>>>>>did just
>>>>>that as a work around (right after I discovered this bug); but, I should not have to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>I am *not* confusing html attributes with runat="server" attributes, as you call them. Using your logic,
>>>>>none of the
>>>>>declarative (html) attributes should render to the browser after I add the runat="server" in ASP.NET; yet all
>>>>>of them
>>>>>(xmlns, lang, and dir) do--except xml:lang.
>>>>>>
>>>>>I started with an html element with 4 attributes (xmlns, lang, xml:lang, and dir) all set declaratively.
>>>>>With *no*
>>>>>5th attribute of runat="server", all 4 attributes render. If I add the 5th attribute of runat="server",
>>>>>which does
>>>>>not and should not render, I no longer get all 4 attributes that should render (xmlns, lang, xml:lang, and
>>>>>dir), I
>>>>>only get 3 (xmlns, lang, and dir). My logic says I should get 4, your says I should get 3? It would be 4 or
>>>>>0, and
>>>>>4 is right. Not 0...and not 3.
>>>>>>
>>>>>When I add runat="server", it does not magically make the xml:lang attribute a server-side attribute, while
>>>>>keeping
>>>>>the other three attributes as "html" attributes. All four are still "html" attributes--which should render.
>>>>>>
>>>>>I think the simplification of my example may be confusing you. It is odd that, in my example, I set
>>>>>runat="server"
>>>>>but do not have any server-side attributes. (I have all 4 as literal strings, for simplicity of an example.)
>>>>>Well,
>>>>>in my real-world use, I do have server-side attributes, which I want set declaratively (no code-beside and no
>>>>>script). I have:
>>>>>>
>>>>><html runat="server" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
>>>>> xml:lang="<%$ Resources:GlobalLang, ContentAudienceLanguage %>"
>>>>> lang="<%$ Resources:GlobalLang, ContentAudienceLanguage %>"
>>>>> dir="ltr">
>>>>>>
>>>>>Both of those declarative explicit localization expressions should work without my having to write any more
>>>>>"procedural" (code-beside) code or script. It actually does work fine for the lang attribute--as it should;
>>>>>but not
>>>>>for the xml:lang attribute--***which is a bug***.
>>>>>>
>>>>>, Lee
>>>>>>
>>>>>"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message news:u0**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>re:
>>>>>>!I think you are misunderstanding, Juan.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>Well, I think you are misunderstanding *me*.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>re:
>>>>>>!I had the xml:lang attribute in the html tag (declaratively), like this:
>>>>>>>...and it renders to the browser, as it should.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>Yes, because it's standard html.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>re:
>>>>>>!If I simply add runat="server"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>That declares the control to run server side.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>For any attribute to be programmed server-side you need a script,
>>>>>>just as you need a script to modify any server control's attributes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>Did you run the sample page I sent ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>It iterates throught the attributes for the html server control,
>>>>>>and shows that the xml:lang attribute *is* added programmatically.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>re:
>>>>>>!If I simply add runat="server", leaving in the xml:lang attribute that
>>>>>>!renders without runat="server", all of the (declarative) attributes are
>>>>>>!rendered to the browser--except the xml:lang attribute! That is a bug.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>I think you're confusing html attributes with runat="server" attributes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>Html attributes can be inserted in normal html.
>>>>>>Server-side attributes must be inserted in code.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>Maybe I'm not explaining this as well as I should.
>>>>>>Try to get someone else's opinion on this matter, if you don't accept mine.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
>>>>>>asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
>>>>>>foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
>>>>>>======================================
>>>>>>"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message news:en**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>I think you are misunderstanding, Juan. I had the xml:lang attribute in the html tag (declaratively), like
>>>>>>>>this:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>><html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en-US" lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>...and it renders to the browser, as it should.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>If I simply add runat="server", leaving in the xml:lang attribute that renders without runat="server", all
>>>>>>>of the
>>>>>>>(declarative) attributes are rendered to the browser--except the xml:lang attribute! That is a bug.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>><html runat="server" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en-US" lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Cordially,
>>>>>>>Lee
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message news:ey**************@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>Here's a full example which shows that the xml:lang attribute is added programmatically :
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>attributes.aspx:
>>>>>>>>----------------------
>>>>>>>><%@ Page Language="C#" AutoEventWireup="True" %>
>>>>>>>><html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" runat="server" id="Myid" >
>>>>>>>><script language="C#" runat="server">
>>>>>>>>void Page_Load(Object sender, EventArgs e)
>>>>>>>>{
>>>>>>>>Myid.Attributes.Add("xml:lang", "es");
>>>>>>>>Message.InnerHtml = "<h4>The html control attributes collection contains:</h4>";
>>>>>>>>IEnumerator keys = Myid.Attributes.Keys.GetEnumerator();
>>>>>>>>while (keys.MoveNext())
>>>>>>>>{
>>>>>>>>String key = (String)keys.Current;
>>>>>>>>Message.InnerHtml += key + "=" + Myid.Attributes[key] + "<br />";
>>>>>>>>}
>>>>>>>>}
>>>>>>>></script>
>>>>>>>><head id="Head1" runat="server">
>>>>>>>><title>The html control attributes collection</title>
>>>>>>>></head>
>>>>>>>><body>
>>>>>>>><form id="Form1" runat="server">
>>>>>>>><h3>HtmlControl Attribute Collection Example</h3>
>>>>>>>><br />
>>>>>>>><span id="Message" enableviewstate="false" runat="server" />
>>>>>>>></form>
>>>>>>>></body>
>>>>>>>></html>
>>>>>>>>----------------
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I don't think it's a bug to have to add an attribute programmatically,
>>>>>>>>because the runat="server" tag only *declares* the html control as a programmable control.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>To actually program it, you must use a script.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
>>>>>>>>asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
>>>>>>>>foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
>>>>>>>>==================================== ==
>>>>>>>>"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message news:e0**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>>Thanks, Juan.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I already added similar code to a page event in my masterpage code-beside.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> elHtml.Attributes.Add("xml:lang", Resources.GlobalLang.ContentAudienceLanguage)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>To me, that is a temporary workaround. I still want to understand whether the "eating" of the attribute
>>>>>>>>>I
>>>>>>>>>originally
>>>>>>>>>posted about is a bug, or if this is actually happening for a reason.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Cordially,
>>>>>>>>>Lee
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message
>>>>>>>>>news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP03. phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>>>Hi, Lee.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>re:
>>>>>>>>>>!<html runat="server" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en-US" lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
>>>>>>>>>>!no xml:lang attribute is rendered to the browser!
>>>>>>>>>>!Remove the runat="server", and, voila, the xml:lang attribute is rendered.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Try this :
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>><html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" runat="server" id="someID">
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>><script runat="server">
>>>>>>>>>>someID.Attributes("xml:lang") = "en-US"
>>>>>>>>>></script>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
>>>>>>>>>>asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
>>>>>>>>>>foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
>>>>>>>>>>==================================== ==
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>"Lee C." <no****@spam.comwrote in message news:O%****************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>>>>>I think I have discovered a bug in ASP.NET, related to I18N.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>In ASP.NET 3.5 I have to set runat="server" on the html element to use explicit expressions. It
>>>>>>>>>>>appears that
>>>>>>>>>>>ASP.NET
>>>>>>>>>>>eats the xml:lang attribute on the html element when it is set to runat="server".
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Of course I want to replace the hardcoded "en-US" values with (resource) explicit expressions; but, for
>>>>>>>>>>>simplicity, try this:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>><html runat="server" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en-US" lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>...And you will find that no xml:lang attribute is rendered to the browser! Remove the runat="server",
>>>>>>>>>>>and,
>>>>>>>>>>>voila, the xml:lang attribute is rendered. :[
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>...Any ideas?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Cordially,
>>>>>>>>>>>Lee
You say you understand, but you make statements that demonstrate otherwise.
You've been arguing against my "what" and "why" all along; yet, I'm the one
following modern best-practices (separating content from code)--which are
required for my scenario. If someone chooses to mix them, that's their
choice; but, it does not change the bug into a feature--regardless of your
position that it does.
At this point, I have no interest in your ASP.NET co-authoring.
Cordially,
Lee
"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message
news:uJ**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
re:
!You clearly don't understand
That "clearly" is doubted by me.
How many times have I told you that I *do* understand what you're saying
but that I'd like to see the bug response team's reply to your "bug
report" ?
How many times will you repeat that I "don't understand", when I do,
although I disagree with the premises you're putting forth ?
re:
!Are you really an ASP.NET MVP? (Classic ASP, maybe?)
The answer to that question is in my signature.
Maybe you haven't read any of the ASP.NET books I've co-authored ?
Good luck with the response to your bug report.
Please remember to post the result here.
Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"Lee C." <no****@spam.comwrote in message
news:eE**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>Juan,
You clearly don't understand, or have not thought about *why* the ASP.NET
team gave us separate places for "design"/content (.aspx files) and
"procedure"/code (.aspx.vb). The ability to separate the 2 was a huge
feature for ASP.NET, from classic ASP.
Even though the particular content affected by the bug I found is not
*visible* Web browser content, it is content none-the-less. Thus, its
wiring belongs in the content file (.aspx)--not the code file (.aspx.vb).
Sure, I could throw in some classic ASP style, and put a script element
in my .aspx page to keep the wiring in the realm of the designer, but
that changes nothing, because it's still programming, which should be
done by programmers in the same place as every other line of programming
in my site: the .aspx.vb pages. Just as badly, it means I'm achieving my
I18N wiring in multiple ways, instead of being consistent.
By everything else, I meant all other I18N resource "wirings". (But, I
take pride in how "light" my .aspx.vb files are--and how clean my .aspx
files are, too.) You are obviously fine with having the designer(s) to
set up and manage *most* of the I18N wirings, *and* having programmers to
do some, too, (as they should not be doing) since bugs are not bugs for
you if there is a workaround that violates good design practices and
principles. I'm not fine with that.
Are you really an ASP.NET MVP? (Classic ASP, maybe?)
, Lee
"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message
news:ur**************@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>>re:
!Setting it programmatically is an incorrect implementation
!when everything else on my page is set declaratively.
Is everything else on your pages set declaratively ?
Think about that for a second.
Why do we have inline scripts and code-behind, if "everything else is
set declaratively" ?
In any case, we've certainly had enough of the "I think that..." back
and forth.
Let's pause this discussion until the "bug" you reported is explained by
the VS Dev team, OK ?
I, definitely, want to see what their explanation is.
https://connect.microsoft.com/Visual...dbackID=353879
Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"Lee C." <no****@spam.comwrote in message
news:eQ**************@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
Correct implementation? What do you mean by that?
I stated earlier on that I worked around it. It's still a bug.
Setting it programmatically is an incorrect implementation when
everything else on my page is set declaratively. Microsoft offered
declarative (explicit) expressions, and I want to use them--anywhere
and everywhere I choose in accordance with how they are stated to work.
When I find one that doesn't work, it's a bug; it's not a case of my
doing something incorrectly. I love Microsoft Visual Studio 2008; but,
I won't tolerate bugs, or suck them up as, "Oh, I must be doing it
wrong since it doesn't work--even though it should."
, Lee
"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl. ..
re:
!ASP.NET should make it easy for me--and, it does,
!but there is a bug in the implementation.
>
The fact that you *can* set xml:lang programmatically, and that you
*did* set it that way,
as I did, should tell you that it isn't much of a bug, but a question
of using the correct implementation.
>
But, again, please let us know what the reply to your bug report is.
>
>
>
Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"Lee C." <no****@spam.comwrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl.. .
>Juan,
>>
>My use of language and culture in ASP.Net is a bit different than
>most. I have registered numerous country-code-specific domains
>(mysite.ca, mysite.co.uk, mysite.com.au, etc.), which resolve to a
>singular "ASP.Net Web Site". Nothing new there. However, I'm not
>doing the ASP.Net usual of letting the user agent (HTTP header
>'accept-language') determine which language visitors get; I have the
>country-code TLD drive it. Also, it's not just the language of my
>content that varies by cc TLD, it's the content, too; but, lang
>attributes play a critical role in informing user agents (including
>search engine bots) for what "country" my content is aimed.
>>
>I have already found, first-hand, that the better of the major search
>engines use the cc TLD *and* the HTML lang/xml:lang to determine
>whether a domain's documents (mysite.com.au/my-document.aspx) should
>show up when a searcher searches with the 'Only from Australia'
>checkbox checked on Live.com, for example.
>>
>I'm not setting lang attributes for fun; I'm doing it to correct
>search engine results. ASP.NET should make it easy for me--and, it
>does, but there is a bug in the implementation.
>>
>I appreciate your interest and effort to help.
>>
>, Lee
>>
>>
>"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message
>news:uB**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl. ..
>>re:
>>!versus the spirit of what we're trying to accomplish: telling
>>user agents who our
>>!intended audiences is, by language, as best we can...which is why
>>I'm *also*
>>!setting lang in the HTTP headers and in page meta tags
>>>
>>What ? You don't set a language/culture in web.config, too ?
>>There's a use for overkill ! ( only kidding... )
>>>
>>I don't see too clearly the purpose of declaring a single language
>>for a web page.
>>>
>>I do see a use for declaring specific language attributes in a
>>*collection* of xml documents,
>>so that individual documents can be parsed for a particular language
>>content.
>>>
>>But, ymmv...
>>>
>>I'd still be interested in knowing what the reply is to your bug
>>report.
>>I bet you'll get back : "That's by design". <g>
>>>
>>Don't forget to let us all know what happens with that, OK ?
>>Thanks for an interesting discussion.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
>>asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
>>foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
>>======================================
>>"Lee C." <no****@spam.comwrote in message
>>news:en*************@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl. ..
>>>Juan,
>>>>
>>>In theory, I like your idea of investigating "the standard"; but,
>>>in practice it has serious problems, as it often does. First, you
>>>are referring to the XML standard, which is not as appropriate as
>>>HTML and XHTML standards. Second, none of them are crystal clear on
>>>best practices for I18N. There is a lot of *legal* (by the
>>>standard) syntax, that makes no sense, or makes some sense without
>>>being clearly best. The W3C site often states something to the
>>>effect of, "some are doing this, some are doing that, on your own
>>>site, at least do something and only time will tell what is best."
>>>>
>>>Check out these fine examples, which mirror my syntax, on the W3C
>>>site.
>>>>
>>>Internationalization Best Practices: Specifying Language in XHTML &
>>>HTML Content
>>>http://www.w3.org/TR/i18n-html-tech-...0429.092928424
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Tutorial: Declaring Language in XHTML and HTML (Draft)
>>>http://www.w3.org/International/tuto...Slide0160.html
>>>>
>>>Juan, you wrote:
>>>>But, it seems to me that setting xml:lang for the html tag's
>>>>*attribute* values is unneeded, since they must
>>>>be in English, and they must be attributes set to a language
>>>>identifier, as defined by IETF RFC 4646
>>>>(http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4646.txt).
>>>>
>>>You're not setting it for "the tag's *attribute*", you're setting
>>>it for the *contents*, all contents, of the element (unless
>>>overridden by a sub-setting), which makes perfect sense so that I
>>>don't have to set it individually on every child element--that is
>>>the power of a hierarchy! You seem to be focused on the technical,
>>>with some misunderstanding, versus the spirit of what we're trying
>>>to accomplish: telling user agents who our intended audiences is,
>>>by language, as best we can...which is why I'm *also* setting lang
>>>in the HTTP headers and in page meta tags.
>>>>
>>>, Lee
>>>>
>>>>
>>>"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message
>>>news:OY**************@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl. ..
>>>>re:
>>>>!I found an MSDN document that explains why what I'm trying to
>>>>do should work
>>>>>
>>>>Lee,
>>>>>
>>>>From :
>>>>>
>>>>http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/
>>>>>
>>>>"A special attribute named xml:lang may be inserted in documents
>>>>to specify the
>>>>language used in the contents and attribute values of any element
>>>>in an XML document."
>>>>>
>>>>If anything, I can see xml:lang being declared for specific
>>>>content values, for example :
>>>>>
>>>><p xml:lang="en-GB">What colour is it?</p>
>>>><p xml:lang="en-US">What color is it?</p>
>>>>>
>>>>Then, an xml parser could identify regional US and British
>>>>spellings but, given that *all* the attribute values
>>>>must be in English in an html doc, what would be the purpose of
>>>>declaring xml:lang for the html markup ?
>>>>>
>>>>A similar explanation is given here :
>>>>http://www.simonstl.com/xmlprim/xmlupdate/atts.html
>>>>>
>>>>---000---
>>>><SECTION>
>>>><DESCRIPTION xml:lang="en">
>>>>Caesar begins by describing the geography of Gaul.
>>>></DESCRIPTION>
>>>><QUOTE xml:lang="la">
>>>>Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres, quarum unam incolunt
>>>>Belgae,
>>>>aliam Aquitani, tertiam qui ipsorum lingua Celtae, nostra Galli
>>>>appellantur.
>>>></QUOTE>
>>>>---000---
>>>>>
>>>>That's perfectly good usage for xml:lang, as a parser could
>>>>selectively identify content in different languages.
>>>>>
>>>>But, it seems to me that setting xml:lang for the html tag's
>>>>*attribute* values is unneeded, since they must
>>>>be in English, and they must be attributes set to a language
>>>>identifier, as defined by IETF RFC 4646
>>>>(http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4646.txt).
>>>>>
>>>>So, I think that requisite pretty well establishes the futility
>>>>of setting xml:lang for all the attributes in an html document.
>>>>>
>>>>If anything, it seems that the xml:lang attribute is included in
>>>>the
>>>>html server tag for compatibility purposes, or perhaps out of
>>>>ignorance.
>>>>>
>>>>If there's a need to identify that the *contents* of a particular
>>>>markup tag are in a
>>>>specific language, that identification can be included in the tag
>>>>itself, for example :
>>>>>
>>>><div lang="MX-es" xml:lang="MX-es">
>>>>Algo de contenido en espaņol mejicano.
>>>></div>
>>>>>
>>>>That makes a lot more sense than setting xml:lang for the
>>>>attribute values in the html tag.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
>>>>asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
>>>>foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
>>>>======================================
>>>>"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message
>>>>news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.g bl...
>>>>>>I found an MSDN document that explains why what I'm trying to do
>>>>>>should work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>ASP.NET Web Server Controls Overview
>>>>>http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/zsyt68f1.aspx
>>>>>>
>>>>>Note the distinction between HTML Server Controls and Web Server
>>>>>Controls in the document. Also, note the explanation
>>>>>of "pass-through" attributes for HTML Server Controls.
>>>>>>
>>>>>Two quotes that sum it up:
>>>>> 1. Any HTML element on a page can be converted to an HTML
>>>>>server control by adding the attribute runat="server".
>>>>> 2. You can add any attributes you need to an HTML server
>>>>>control and the page framework will render them without
>>>>>any change in functionality.
>>>>>>
>>>>>, Lee
>>>>>>
>>>>>"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message
>>>>>news:Oe**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gb l...
>>>>>>Juan,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>I appreciate your trying to help, but you're wrong, and you are
>>>>>>the one who is confused. :]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>I am *not* disputing that when inserted programmatically, the
>>>>>>xml:lang attribute renders to the browser. I did just
>>>>>>that as a work around (right after I discovered this bug); but,
>>>>>>I should not have to.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>I am *not* confusing html attributes with runat="server"
>>>>>>attributes, as you call them. Using your logic, none of the
>>>>>>declarative (html) attributes should render to the browser after
>>>>>>I add the runat="server" in ASP.NET; yet all of them
>>>>>>(xmlns, lang, and dir) do--except xml:lang.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>I started with an html element with 4 attributes (xmlns, lang,
>>>>>>xml:lang, and dir) all set declaratively. With *no*
>>>>>>5th attribute of runat="server", all 4 attributes render. If I
>>>>>>add the 5th attribute of runat="server", which does
>>>>>>not and should not render, I no longer get all 4 attributes that
>>>>>>should render (xmlns, lang, xml:lang, and dir), I
>>>>>>only get 3 (xmlns, lang, and dir). My logic says I should get
>>>>>>4, your says I should get 3? It would be 4 or 0, and
>>>>>>4 is right. Not 0...and not 3.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>When I add runat="server", it does not magically make the
>>>>>>xml:lang attribute a server-side attribute, while keeping
>>>>>>the other three attributes as "html" attributes. All four are
>>>>>>still "html" attributes--which should render.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>I think the simplification of my example may be confusing you.
>>>>>>It is odd that, in my example, I set runat="server"
>>>>>>but do not have any server-side attributes. (I have all 4 as
>>>>>>literal strings, for simplicity of an example.) Well,
>>>>>>in my real-world use, I do have server-side attributes, which I
>>>>>>want set declaratively (no code-beside and no
>>>>>>script). I have:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>><html runat="server" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
>>>>>> xml:lang="<%$ Resources:GlobalLang, ContentAudienceLanguage
>>>>>>%>"
>>>>>> lang="<%$ Resources:GlobalLang, ContentAudienceLanguage %>"
>>>>>> dir="ltr">
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>Both of those declarative explicit localization expressions
>>>>>>should work without my having to write any more
>>>>>>"procedural" (code-beside) code or script. It actually does
>>>>>>work fine for the lang attribute--as it should; but not
>>>>>>for the xml:lang attribute--***which is a bug***.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>, Lee
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message
>>>>>>news:u0**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.g bl...
>>>>>>>re:
>>>>>>>!I think you are misunderstanding, Juan.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Well, I think you are misunderstanding *me*.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>re:
>>>>>>>!I had the xml:lang attribute in the html tag
>>>>>>>(declaratively), like this:
>>>>>>>>...and it renders to the browser, as it should.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Yes, because it's standard html.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>re:
>>>>>>>!If I simply add runat="server"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>That declares the control to run server side.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>For any attribute to be programmed server-side you need a
>>>>>>>script,
>>>>>>>just as you need a script to modify any server control's
>>>>>>>attributes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Did you run the sample page I sent ?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>It iterates throught the attributes for the html server
>>>>>>>control,
>>>>>>>and shows that the xml:lang attribute *is* added
>>>>>>>programmatically.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>re:
>>>>>>>!If I simply add runat="server", leaving in the xml:lang
>>>>>>>attribute that
>>>>>>>!renders without runat="server", all of the (declarative)
>>>>>>>attributes are
>>>>>>>!rendered to the browser--except the xml:lang attribute!
>>>>>>>That is a bug.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I think you're confusing html attributes with runat="server"
>>>>>>>attributes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Html attributes can be inserted in normal html.
>>>>>>>Server-side attributes must be inserted in code.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Maybe I'm not explaining this as well as I should.
>>>>>>>Try to get someone else's opinion on this matter, if you don't
>>>>>>>accept mine.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
>>>>>>>asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
>>>>>>>foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
>>>>>>>===================================== =
>>>>>>>"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message
>>>>>>>news:en**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx. gbl...
>>>>>>>>>I think you are misunderstanding, Juan. I had the xml:lang
>>>>>>>>>attribute in the html tag (declaratively), like this:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>><html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en-US"
>>>>>>>>lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>...and it renders to the browser, as it should.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>If I simply add runat="server", leaving in the xml:lang
>>>>>>>>attribute that renders without runat="server", all of the
>>>>>>>>(declarative) attributes are rendered to the browser--except
>>>>>>>>the xml:lang attribute! That is a bug.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>><html runat="server" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
>>>>>>>>xml:lang="en-US" lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Cordially,
>>>>>>>>Lee
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message
>>>>>>>>news:ey**************@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx .gbl...
>>>>>>>>>Here's a full example which shows that the xml:lang attribute
>>>>>>>>>is added programmatically :
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>attributes.aspx:
>>>>>>>>>----------------------
>>>>>>>>><%@ Page Language="C#" AutoEventWireup="True" %>
>>>>>>>>><html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" runat="server"
>>>>>>>>>id="Myid" >
>>>>>>>>><script language="C#" runat="server">
>>>>>>>>>void Page_Load(Object sender, EventArgs e)
>>>>>>>>>{
>>>>>>>>>Myid.Attributes.Add("xml:lang", "es");
>>>>>>>>>Message.InnerHtml = "<h4>The html control attributes
>>>>>>>>>collection contains:</h4>";
>>>>>>>>>IEnumerator keys = Myid.Attributes.Keys.GetEnumerator();
>>>>>>>>>while (keys.MoveNext())
>>>>>>>>>{
>>>>>>>>>String key = (String)keys.Current;
>>>>>>>>>Message.InnerHtml += key + "=" + Myid.Attributes[key] + "<br
>>>>>>>>>/>";
>>>>>>>>>}
>>>>>>>>>}
>>>>>>>>></script>
>>>>>>>>><head id="Head1" runat="server">
>>>>>>>>><title>The html control attributes collection</title>
>>>>>>>>></head>
>>>>>>>>><body>
>>>>>>>>><form id="Form1" runat="server">
>>>>>>>>><h3>HtmlControl Attribute Collection Example</h3>
>>>>>>>>><br />
>>>>>>>>><span id="Message" enableviewstate="false" runat="server" />
>>>>>>>>></form>
>>>>>>>>></body>
>>>>>>>>></html>
>>>>>>>>>----------------
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I don't think it's a bug to have to add an attribute
>>>>>>>>>programmatically,
>>>>>>>>>because the runat="server" tag only *declares* the html
>>>>>>>>>control as a programmable control.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>To actually program it, you must use a script.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
>>>>>>>>>asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
>>>>>>>>>foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
>>>>>>>>>===================================== =
>>>>>>>>>"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message
>>>>>>>>>news:e0**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.ph x.gbl...
>>>>>>>>>>Thanks, Juan.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>I already added similar code to a page event in my
>>>>>>>>>>masterpage code-beside.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> elHtml.Attributes.Add("xml:lang",
>>>>>>>>>>Resources.GlobalLang.ContentAudience Language)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>To me, that is a temporary workaround. I still want to
>>>>>>>>>>understand whether the "eating" of the attribute I
>>>>>>>>>>originally
>>>>>>>>>>posted about is a bug, or if this is actually happening for
>>>>>>>>>>a reason.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Cordially,
>>>>>>>>>>Lee
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in
>>>>>>>>>>message news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>>>>Hi, Lee.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>re:
>>>>>>>>>>>!<html runat="server"
>>>>>>>>>>>xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en-US"
>>>>>>>>>>>lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
>>>>>>>>>>>!no xml:lang attribute is rendered to the browser!
>>>>>>>>>>>!Remove the runat="server", and, voila, the xml:lang
>>>>>>>>>>>attribute is rendered.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Try this :
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>><html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" runat="server"
>>>>>>>>>>>id="someID">
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>><script runat="server">
>>>>>>>>>>>someID.Attributes("xml:lang") = "en-US"
>>>>>>>>>>></script>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
>>>>>>>>>>>asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
>>>>>>>>>>>foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
>>>>>>>>>>>=================================== ===
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>"Lee C." <no****@spam.comwrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>news:O%****************@TK2MSFTNGP0 3.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>I think I have discovered a bug in ASP.NET, related to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>I18N.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>In ASP.NET 3.5 I have to set runat="server" on the html
>>>>>>>>>>>>element to use explicit expressions. It appears that
>>>>>>>>>>>>ASP.NET
>>>>>>>>>>>>eats the xml:lang attribute on the html element when it is
>>>>>>>>>>>>set to runat="server".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Of course I want to replace the hardcoded "en-US" values
>>>>>>>>>>>>with (resource) explicit expressions; but, for simplicity,
>>>>>>>>>>>>try this:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>><html runat="server" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
>>>>>>>>>>>>xml:lang="en-US" lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>...And you will find that no xml:lang attribute is
>>>>>>>>>>>>rendered to the browser! Remove the runat="server", and,
>>>>>>>>>>>>voila, the xml:lang attribute is rendered. :[
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>...Any ideas?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Cordially,
>>>>>>>>>>>>Lee
re:
!I'm the one following modern best-practices (separating content from code)
Sorry. Inline code is just as good a best-practice as code-behind.
re:
!At this point, I have no interest in your ASP.NET co-authoring.
Ooh, nasty. I hope you feel better now that you got that zinger off.
Let's see what Microsoft's VS bug team says about the bug you filed, OK ?
Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"Lee C." <no****@spam.comwrote in message news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
You say you understand, but you make statements that demonstrate otherwise. You've been arguing against my "what" and
"why" all along; yet, I'm the one following modern best-practices (separating content from code)--which are required
for my scenario. If someone chooses to mix them, that's their choice; but, it does not change the bug into a
feature--regardless of your position that it does.
At this point, I have no interest in your ASP.NET co-authoring.
Cordially,
Lee
"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message news:uJ**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>re:
!You clearly don't understand
That "clearly" is doubted by me.
How many times have I told you that I *do* understand what you're saying
but that I'd like to see the bug response team's reply to your "bug report" ?
How many times will you repeat that I "don't understand", when I do,
although I disagree with the premises you're putting forth ?
re:
!Are you really an ASP.NET MVP? (Classic ASP, maybe?)
The answer to that question is in my signature.
Maybe you haven't read any of the ASP.NET books I've co-authored ?
Good luck with the response to your bug report.
Please remember to post the result here.
Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"Lee C." <no****@spam.comwrote in message news:eE**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>Juan,
You clearly don't understand, or have not thought about *why* the ASP.NET team gave us separate places for
"design"/content (.aspx files) and "procedure"/code (.aspx.vb). The ability to separate the 2 was a huge feature
for ASP.NET, from classic ASP.
Even though the particular content affected by the bug I found is not *visible* Web browser content, it is content
none-the-less. Thus, its wiring belongs in the content file (.aspx)--not the code file (.aspx.vb). Sure, I could
throw in some classic ASP style, and put a script element in my .aspx page to keep the wiring in the realm of the
designer, but that changes nothing, because it's still programming, which should be done by programmers in the same
place as every other line of programming in my site: the .aspx.vb pages. Just as badly, it means I'm achieving my
I18N wiring in multiple ways, instead of being consistent.
By everything else, I meant all other I18N resource "wirings". (But, I take pride in how "light" my .aspx.vb files
are--and how clean my .aspx files are, too.) You are obviously fine with having the designer(s) to set up and
manage *most* of the I18N wirings, *and* having programmers to do some, too, (as they should not be doing) since
bugs are not bugs for you if there is a workaround that violates good design practices and principles. I'm not fine
with that.
Are you really an ASP.NET MVP? (Classic ASP, maybe?)
, Lee
"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message news:ur**************@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
re:
!Setting it programmatically is an incorrect implementation
!when everything else on my page is set declaratively.
Is everything else on your pages set declaratively ?
Think about that for a second.
Why do we have inline scripts and code-behind, if "everything else is set declaratively" ?
In any case, we've certainly had enough of the "I think that..." back and forth.
Let's pause this discussion until the "bug" you reported is explained by the VS Dev team, OK ?
I, definitely, want to see what their explanation is.
https://connect.microsoft.com/Visual...dbackID=353879
Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"Lee C." <no****@spam.comwrote in message news:eQ**************@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
Correct implementation? What do you mean by that?
>
I stated earlier on that I worked around it. It's still a bug. Setting it programmatically is an incorrect
implementation when everything else on my page is set declaratively. Microsoft offered declarative (explicit)
expressions, and I want to use them--anywhere and everywhere I choose in accordance with how they are stated to
work. When I find one that doesn't work, it's a bug; it's not a case of my doing something incorrectly. I love
Microsoft Visual Studio 2008; but, I won't tolerate bugs, or suck them up as, "Oh, I must be doing it wrong since
it doesn't work--even though it should."
>
, Lee
>
"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>re:
>!ASP.NET should make it easy for me--and, it does,
>!but there is a bug in the implementation.
>>
>The fact that you *can* set xml:lang programmatically, and that you *did* set it that way,
>as I did, should tell you that it isn't much of a bug, but a question of using the correct implementation.
>>
>But, again, please let us know what the reply to your bug report is.
>>
>>
>>
>Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
>asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
>foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
>======================================
>"Lee C." <no****@spam.comwrote in message news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>>Juan,
>>>
>>My use of language and culture in ASP.Net is a bit different than most. I have registered numerous
>>country-code-specific domains (mysite.ca, mysite.co.uk, mysite.com.au, etc.), which resolve to a singular
>>"ASP.Net Web Site". Nothing new there. However, I'm not doing the ASP.Net usual of letting the user agent
>>(HTTP header 'accept-language') determine which language visitors get; I have the country-code TLD drive it.
>>Also, it's not just the language of my content that varies by cc TLD, it's the content, too; but, lang
>>attributes play a critical role in informing user agents (including search engine bots) for what "country" my
>>content is aimed.
>>>
>>I have already found, first-hand, that the better of the major search engines use the cc TLD *and* the HTML
>>lang/xml:lang to determine whether a domain's documents (mysite.com.au/my-document.aspx) should show up when a
>>searcher searches with the 'Only from Australia' checkbox checked on Live.com, for example.
>>>
>>I'm not setting lang attributes for fun; I'm doing it to correct search engine results. ASP.NET should make it
>>easy for me--and, it does, but there is a bug in the implementation.
>>>
>>I appreciate your interest and effort to help.
>>>
>>, Lee
>>>
>>>
>>"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message news:uB**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>re:
>>>!versus the spirit of what we're trying to accomplish: telling user agents who our
>>>!intended audiences is, by language, as best we can...which is why I'm *also*
>>>!setting lang in the HTTP headers and in page meta tags
>>>>
>>>What ? You don't set a language/culture in web.config, too ?
>>>There's a use for overkill ! ( only kidding... )
>>>>
>>>I don't see too clearly the purpose of declaring a single language for a web page.
>>>>
>>>I do see a use for declaring specific language attributes in a *collection* of xml documents,
>>>so that individual documents can be parsed for a particular language content.
>>>>
>>>But, ymmv...
>>>>
>>>I'd still be interested in knowing what the reply is to your bug report.
>>>I bet you'll get back : "That's by design". <g>
>>>>
>>>Don't forget to let us all know what happens with that, OK ?
>>>Thanks for an interesting discussion.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
>>>asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
>>>foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
>>>======================================
>>>"Lee C." <no****@spam.comwrote in message news:en*************@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>>>Juan,
>>>>>
>>>>In theory, I like your idea of investigating "the standard"; but, in practice it has serious problems, as it
>>>>often does. First, you are referring to the XML standard, which is not as appropriate as HTML and XHTML
>>>>standards. Second, none of them are crystal clear on best practices for I18N. There is a lot of *legal* (by
>>>>the standard) syntax, that makes no sense, or makes some sense without being clearly best. The W3C site often
>>>>states something to the effect of, "some are doing this, some are doing that, on your own site, at least do
>>>>something and only time will tell what is best."
>>>>>
>>>>Check out these fine examples, which mirror my syntax, on the W3C site.
>>>>>
>>>>Internationalization Best Practices: Specifying Language in XHTML & HTML Content
>>>>http://www.w3.org/TR/i18n-html-tech-...0429.092928424
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>Tutorial: Declaring Language in XHTML and HTML (Draft)
>>>>http://www.w3.org/International/tuto...Slide0160.html
>>>>>
>>>>Juan, you wrote:
>>>>>But, it seems to me that setting xml:lang for the html tag's *attribute* values is unneeded, since they must
>>>>>be in English, and they must be attributes set to a language identifier, as defined by IETF RFC 4646
>>>>>(http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4646.txt).
>>>>>
>>>>You're not setting it for "the tag's *attribute*", you're setting it for the *contents*, all contents, of the
>>>>element (unless overridden by a sub-setting), which makes perfect sense so that I don't have to set it
>>>>individually on every child element--that is the power of a hierarchy! You seem to be focused on the
>>>>technical, with some misunderstanding, versus the spirit of what we're trying to accomplish: telling user
>>>>agents who our intended audiences is, by language, as best we can...which is why I'm *also* setting lang in
>>>>the HTTP headers and in page meta tags.
>>>>>
>>>>, Lee
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message news:OY**************@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>>>>>re:
>>>>>!I found an MSDN document that explains why what I'm trying to do should work
>>>>>>
>>>>>Lee,
>>>>>>
>>>>>From :
>>>>>>
>>>>>http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/
>>>>>>
>>>>>"A special attribute named xml:lang may be inserted in documents to specify the
>>>>>language used in the contents and attribute values of any element in an XML document."
>>>>>>
>>>>>If anything, I can see xml:lang being declared for specific content values, for example :
>>>>>>
>>>>><p xml:lang="en-GB">What colour is it?</p>
>>>>><p xml:lang="en-US">What color is it?</p>
>>>>>>
>>>>>Then, an xml parser could identify regional US and British spellings but, given that *all* the attribute
>>>>>values
>>>>>must be in English in an html doc, what would be the purpose of declaring xml:lang for the html markup ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>A similar explanation is given here :
>>>>>http://www.simonstl.com/xmlprim/xmlupdate/atts.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>---000---
>>>>><SECTION>
>>>>><DESCRIPTION xml:lang="en">
>>>>>Caesar begins by describing the geography of Gaul.
>>>>></DESCRIPTION>
>>>>><QUOTE xml:lang="la">
>>>>>Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres, quarum unam incolunt Belgae,
>>>>>aliam Aquitani, tertiam qui ipsorum lingua Celtae, nostra Galli appellantur.
>>>>></QUOTE>
>>>>>---000---
>>>>>>
>>>>>That's perfectly good usage for xml:lang, as a parser could selectively identify content in different
>>>>>languages.
>>>>>>
>>>>>But, it seems to me that setting xml:lang for the html tag's *attribute* values is unneeded, since they must
>>>>>be in English, and they must be attributes set to a language identifier, as defined by IETF RFC 4646
>>>>>(http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4646.txt).
>>>>>>
>>>>>So, I think that requisite pretty well establishes the futility
>>>>>of setting xml:lang for all the attributes in an html document.
>>>>>>
>>>>>If anything, it seems that the xml:lang attribute is included in the
>>>>>html server tag for compatibility purposes, or perhaps out of ignorance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>If there's a need to identify that the *contents* of a particular markup tag are in a
>>>>>specific language, that identification can be included in the tag itself, for example :
>>>>>>
>>>>><div lang="MX-es" xml:lang="MX-es">
>>>>>Algo de contenido en espaņol mejicano.
>>>>></div>
>>>>>>
>>>>>That makes a lot more sense than setting xml:lang for the attribute values in the html tag.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
>>>>>asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
>>>>>foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
>>>>>======================================
>>>>>"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>I found an MSDN document that explains why what I'm trying to do should work.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>ASP.NET Web Server Controls Overview
>>>>>>http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/zsyt68f1.aspx
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>Note the distinction between HTML Server Controls and Web Server Controls in the document. Also, note the
>>>>>>explanation
>>>>>>of "pass-through" attributes for HTML Server Controls.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>Two quotes that sum it up:
>>>>>> 1. Any HTML element on a page can be converted to an HTML server control by adding the attribute
>>>>>>runat="server".
>>>>>> 2. You can add any attributes you need to an HTML server control and the page framework will render them
>>>>>>without
>>>>>>any change in functionality.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>, Lee
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message news:Oe**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>Juan,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I appreciate your trying to help, but you're wrong, and you are the one who is confused. :]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I am *not* disputing that when inserted programmatically, the xml:lang attribute renders to the browser. I
>>>>>>>did just
>>>>>>>that as a work around (right after I discovered this bug); but, I should not have to.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I am *not* confusing html attributes with runat="server" attributes, as you call them. Using your logic,
>>>>>>>none of the
>>>>>>>declarative (html) attributes should render to the browser after I add the runat="server" in ASP.NET; yet
>>>>>>>all of them
>>>>>>>(xmlns, lang, and dir) do--except xml:lang.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I started with an html element with 4 attributes (xmlns, lang, xml:lang, and dir) all set declaratively.
>>>>>>>With *no*
>>>>>>>5th attribute of runat="server", all 4 attributes render. If I add the 5th attribute of runat="server",
>>>>>>>which does
>>>>>>>not and should not render, I no longer get all 4 attributes that should render (xmlns, lang, xml:lang, and
>>>>>>>dir), I
>>>>>>>only get 3 (xmlns, lang, and dir). My logic says I should get 4, your says I should get 3? It would be 4
>>>>>>>or 0, and
>>>>>>>4 is right. Not 0...and not 3.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>When I add runat="server", it does not magically make the xml:lang attribute a server-side attribute, while
>>>>>>>keeping
>>>>>>>the other three attributes as "html" attributes. All four are still "html" attributes--which should
>>>>>>>render.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I think the simplification of my example may be confusing you. It is odd that, in my example, I set
>>>>>>>runat="server"
>>>>>>>but do not have any server-side attributes. (I have all 4 as literal strings, for simplicity of an
>>>>>>>example.) Well,
>>>>>>>in my real-world use, I do have server-side attributes, which I want set declaratively (no code-beside and
>>>>>>>no
>>>>>>>script). I have:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>><html runat="server" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
>>>>>>> xml:lang="<%$ Resources:GlobalLang, ContentAudienceLanguage %>"
>>>>>>> lang="<%$ Resources:GlobalLang, ContentAudienceLanguage %>"
>>>>>>> dir="ltr">
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Both of those declarative explicit localization expressions should work without my having to write any more
>>>>>>>"procedural" (code-beside) code or script. It actually does work fine for the lang attribute--as it
>>>>>>>should; but not
>>>>>>>for the xml:lang attribute--***which is a bug***.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>, Lee
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message news:u0**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>re:
>>>>>>>>!I think you are misunderstanding, Juan.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Well, I think you are misunderstanding *me*.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>re:
>>>>>>>>!I had the xml:lang attribute in the html tag (declaratively), like this:
>>>>>>>>>...and it renders to the browser, as it should.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Yes, because it's standard html.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>re:
>>>>>>>>!If I simply add runat="server"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>That declares the control to run server side.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>For any attribute to be programmed server-side you need a script,
>>>>>>>>just as you need a script to modify any server control's attributes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Did you run the sample page I sent ?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>It iterates throught the attributes for the html server control,
>>>>>>>>and shows that the xml:lang attribute *is* added programmatically.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>re:
>>>>>>>>!If I simply add runat="server", leaving in the xml:lang attribute that
>>>>>>>>!renders without runat="server", all of the (declarative) attributes are
>>>>>>>>!rendered to the browser--except the xml:lang attribute! That is a bug.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I think you're confusing html attributes with runat="server" attributes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Html attributes can be inserted in normal html.
>>>>>>>>Server-side attributes must be inserted in code.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Maybe I'm not explaining this as well as I should.
>>>>>>>>Try to get someone else's opinion on this matter, if you don't accept mine.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
>>>>>>>>asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
>>>>>>>>foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
>>>>>>>>==================================== ==
>>>>>>>>"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message news:en**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>>>I think you are misunderstanding, Juan. I had the xml:lang attribute in the html tag (declaratively),
>>>>>>>>>>like this:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>><html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en-US" lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>...and it renders to the browser, as it should.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>If I simply add runat="server", leaving in the xml:lang attribute that renders without runat="server",
>>>>>>>>>all of the
>>>>>>>>>(declarative) attributes are rendered to the browser--except the xml:lang attribute! That is a bug.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>><html runat="server" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en-US" lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Cordially,
>>>>>>>>>Lee
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message
>>>>>>>>>news:ey**************@TK2MSFTNGP02.ph x.gbl...
>>>>>>>>>>Here's a full example which shows that the xml:lang attribute is added programmatically :
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>attributes.aspx:
>>>>>>>>>>----------------------
>>>>>>>>>><%@ Page Language="C#" AutoEventWireup="True" %>
>>>>>>>>>><html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" runat="server" id="Myid" >
>>>>>>>>>><script language="C#" runat="server">
>>>>>>>>>>void Page_Load(Object sender, EventArgs e)
>>>>>>>>>>{
>>>>>>>>>>Myid.Attributes.Add("xml:lang", "es");
>>>>>>>>>>Message.InnerHtml = "<h4>The html control attributes collection contains:</h4>";
>>>>>>>>>>IEnumerator keys = Myid.Attributes.Keys.GetEnumerator();
>>>>>>>>>>while (keys.MoveNext())
>>>>>>>>>>{
>>>>>>>>>>String key = (String)keys.Current;
>>>>>>>>>>Message.InnerHtml += key + "=" + Myid.Attributes[key] + "<br />";
>>>>>>>>>>}
>>>>>>>>>>}
>>>>>>>>>></script>
>>>>>>>>>><head id="Head1" runat="server">
>>>>>>>>>><title>The html control attributes collection</title>
>>>>>>>>>></head>
>>>>>>>>>><body>
>>>>>>>>>><form id="Form1" runat="server">
>>>>>>>>>><h3>HtmlControl Attribute Collection Example</h3>
>>>>>>>>>><br />
>>>>>>>>>><span id="Message" enableviewstate="false" runat="server" />
>>>>>>>>>></form>
>>>>>>>>>></body>
>>>>>>>>>></html>
>>>>>>>>>>----------------
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>I don't think it's a bug to have to add an attribute programmatically,
>>>>>>>>>>because the runat="server" tag only *declares* the html control as a programmable control.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>To actually program it, you must use a script.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
>>>>>>>>>>asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
>>>>>>>>>>foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
>>>>>>>>>>==================================== ==
>>>>>>>>>>"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message news:e0**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>>>>Thanks, Juan.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>I already added similar code to a page event in my masterpage code-beside.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> elHtml.Attributes.Add("xml:lang", Resources.GlobalLang.ContentAudienceLanguage)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>To me, that is a temporary workaround. I still want to understand whether the "eating" of the
>>>>>>>>>>>attribute I
>>>>>>>>>>>originally
>>>>>>>>>>>posted about is a bug, or if this is actually happening for a reason.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Cordially,
>>>>>>>>>>>Lee
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP0 3.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>>>>>Hi, Lee.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>re:
>>>>>>>>>>>>!<html runat="server" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en-US" lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
>>>>>>>>>>>>!no xml:lang attribute is rendered to the browser!
>>>>>>>>>>>>!Remove the runat="server", and, voila, the xml:lang attribute is rendered.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Try this :
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>><html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" runat="server" id="someID">
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>><script runat="server">
>>>>>>>>>>>>someID.Attributes("xml:lang") = "en-US"
>>>>>>>>>>>></script>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
>>>>>>>>>>>>asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
>>>>>>>>>>>>foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
>>>>>>>>>>>>================================== ====
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>"Lee C." <no****@spam.comwrote in message news:O%****************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I think I have discovered a bug in ASP.NET, related to I18N.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>In ASP.NET 3.5 I have to set runat="server" on the html element to use explicit expressions. It
>>>>>>>>>>>>>appears that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>ASP.NET
>>>>>>>>>>>>>eats the xml:lang attribute on the html element when it is set to runat="server".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Of course I want to replace the hardcoded "en-US" values with (resource) explicit expressions; but,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>for simplicity, try this:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>><html runat="server" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en-US" lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>...And you will find that no xml:lang attribute is rendered to the browser! Remove the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>runat="server", and,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>voila, the xml:lang attribute is rendered. :[
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>...Any ideas?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Cordially,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Lee
Okay, I've seen enough. You just do *not* get it. I won't waste another
keystroke.
"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message
news:O2**************@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
re:
!I'm the one following modern best-practices (separating content from
code)
Sorry. Inline code is just as good a best-practice as code-behind.
re:
!At this point, I have no interest in your ASP.NET co-authoring.
Ooh, nasty. I hope you feel better now that you got that zinger off.
Let's see what Microsoft's VS bug team says about the bug you filed, OK ?
Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"Lee C." <no****@spam.comwrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>You say you understand, but you make statements that demonstrate
otherwise. You've been arguing against my "what" and "why" all along;
yet, I'm the one following modern best-practices (separating content from
code)--which are required for my scenario. If someone chooses to mix
them, that's their choice; but, it does not change the bug into a
feature--regardless of your position that it does.
At this point, I have no interest in your ASP.NET co-authoring.
Cordially,
Lee
"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message
news:uJ**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>>re:
!You clearly don't understand
That "clearly" is doubted by me.
How many times have I told you that I *do* understand what you're saying
but that I'd like to see the bug response team's reply to your "bug
report" ?
How many times will you repeat that I "don't understand", when I do,
although I disagree with the premises you're putting forth ?
re:
!Are you really an ASP.NET MVP? (Classic ASP, maybe?)
The answer to that question is in my signature.
Maybe you haven't read any of the ASP.NET books I've co-authored ?
Good luck with the response to your bug report.
Please remember to post the result here.
Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"Lee C." <no****@spam.comwrote in message
news:eE**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
Juan,
You clearly don't understand, or have not thought about *why* the
ASP.NET team gave us separate places for "design"/content (.aspx files)
and "procedure"/code (.aspx.vb). The ability to separate the 2 was a
huge feature for ASP.NET, from classic ASP.
Even though the particular content affected by the bug I found is not
*visible* Web browser content, it is content none-the-less. Thus, its
wiring belongs in the content file (.aspx)--not the code file
(.aspx.vb). Sure, I could throw in some classic ASP style, and put a
script element in my .aspx page to keep the wiring in the realm of the
designer, but that changes nothing, because it's still programming,
which should be done by programmers in the same place as every other
line of programming in my site: the .aspx.vb pages. Just as badly, it
means I'm achieving my I18N wiring in multiple ways, instead of being
consistent.
By everything else, I meant all other I18N resource "wirings". (But, I
take pride in how "light" my .aspx.vb files are--and how clean my .aspx
files are, too.) You are obviously fine with having the designer(s) to
set up and manage *most* of the I18N wirings, *and* having programmers
to do some, too, (as they should not be doing) since bugs are not bugs
for you if there is a workaround that violates good design practices
and principles. I'm not fine with that.
Are you really an ASP.NET MVP? (Classic ASP, maybe?)
, Lee
"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message
news:ur**************@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
re:
!Setting it programmatically is an incorrect implementation
!when everything else on my page is set declaratively.
>
Is everything else on your pages set declaratively ?
Think about that for a second.
>
Why do we have inline scripts and code-behind, if "everything else is
set declaratively" ?
>
In any case, we've certainly had enough of the "I think that..." back
and forth.
>
Let's pause this discussion until the "bug" you reported is explained
by the VS Dev team, OK ?
I, definitely, want to see what their explanation is.
>
https://connect.microsoft.com/Visual...dbackID=353879
>
>
>
Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"Lee C." <no****@spam.comwrote in message
news:eQ**************@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl.. .
>Correct implementation? What do you mean by that?
>>
>I stated earlier on that I worked around it. It's still a bug.
>Setting it programmatically is an incorrect implementation when
>everything else on my page is set declaratively. Microsoft offered
>declarative (explicit) expressions, and I want to use them--anywhere
>and everywhere I choose in accordance with how they are stated to
>work. When I find one that doesn't work, it's a bug; it's not a case
>of my doing something incorrectly. I love Microsoft Visual Studio
>2008; but, I won't tolerate bugs, or suck them up as, "Oh, I must be
>doing it wrong since it doesn't work--even though it should."
>>
>, Lee
>>
>"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message
>news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl. ..
>>re:
>>!ASP.NET should make it easy for me--and, it does,
>>!but there is a bug in the implementation.
>>>
>>The fact that you *can* set xml:lang programmatically, and that you
>>*did* set it that way,
>>as I did, should tell you that it isn't much of a bug, but a
>>question of using the correct implementation.
>>>
>>But, again, please let us know what the reply to your bug report is.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
>>asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
>>foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
>>======================================
>>"Lee C." <no****@spam.comwrote in message
>>news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl ...
>>>Juan,
>>>>
>>>My use of language and culture in ASP.Net is a bit different than
>>>most. I have registered numerous country-code-specific domains
>>>(mysite.ca, mysite.co.uk, mysite.com.au, etc.), which resolve to a
>>>singular "ASP.Net Web Site". Nothing new there. However, I'm not
>>>doing the ASP.Net usual of letting the user agent (HTTP header
>>>'accept-language') determine which language visitors get; I have
>>>the country-code TLD drive it. Also, it's not just the language of
>>>my content that varies by cc TLD, it's the content, too; but, lang
>>>attributes play a critical role in informing user agents (including
>>>search engine bots) for what "country" my content is aimed.
>>>>
>>>I have already found, first-hand, that the better of the major
>>>search engines use the cc TLD *and* the HTML lang/xml:lang to
>>>determine whether a domain's documents
>>>(mysite.com.au/my-document.aspx) should show up when a searcher
>>>searches with the 'Only from Australia' checkbox checked on
>>>Live.com, for example.
>>>>
>>>I'm not setting lang attributes for fun; I'm doing it to correct
>>>search engine results. ASP.NET should make it easy for me--and, it
>>>does, but there is a bug in the implementation.
>>>>
>>>I appreciate your interest and effort to help.
>>>>
>>>, Lee
>>>>
>>>>
>>>"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message
>>>news:uB**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl. ..
>>>>re:
>>>>!versus the spirit of what we're trying to accomplish: telling
>>>>user agents who our
>>>>!intended audiences is, by language, as best we can...which is
>>>>why I'm *also*
>>>>!setting lang in the HTTP headers and in page meta tags
>>>>>
>>>>What ? You don't set a language/culture in web.config, too ?
>>>>There's a use for overkill ! ( only kidding... )
>>>>>
>>>>I don't see too clearly the purpose of declaring a single language
>>>>for a web page.
>>>>>
>>>>I do see a use for declaring specific language attributes in a
>>>>*collection* of xml documents,
>>>>so that individual documents can be parsed for a particular
>>>>language content.
>>>>>
>>>>But, ymmv...
>>>>>
>>>>I'd still be interested in knowing what the reply is to your bug
>>>>report.
>>>>I bet you'll get back : "That's by design". <g>
>>>>>
>>>>Don't forget to let us all know what happens with that, OK ?
>>>>Thanks for an interesting discussion.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
>>>>asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
>>>>foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
>>>>======================================
>>>>"Lee C." <no****@spam.comwrote in message
>>>>news:en*************@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl. ..
>>>>>Juan,
>>>>>>
>>>>>In theory, I like your idea of investigating "the standard"; but,
>>>>>in practice it has serious problems, as it often does. First,
>>>>>you are referring to the XML standard, which is not as
>>>>>appropriate as HTML and XHTML standards. Second, none of them are
>>>>>crystal clear on best practices for I18N. There is a lot of
>>>>>*legal* (by the standard) syntax, that makes no sense, or makes
>>>>>some sense without being clearly best. The W3C site often states
>>>>>something to the effect of, "some are doing this, some are doing
>>>>>that, on your own site, at least do something and only time will
>>>>>tell what is best."
>>>>>>
>>>>>Check out these fine examples, which mirror my syntax, on the W3C
>>>>>site.
>>>>>>
>>>>>Internationalization Best Practices: Specifying Language in XHTML
>>>>>& HTML Content
>>>>>http://www.w3.org/TR/i18n-html-tech-...0429.092928424
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>Tutorial: Declaring Language in XHTML and HTML (Draft)
>>>>>http://www.w3.org/International/tuto...Slide0160.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>Juan, you wrote:
>>>>>>But, it seems to me that setting xml:lang for the html tag's
>>>>>>*attribute* values is unneeded, since they must
>>>>>>be in English, and they must be attributes set to a language
>>>>>>identifier, as defined by IETF RFC 4646
>>>>>>(http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4646.txt).
>>>>>>
>>>>>You're not setting it for "the tag's *attribute*", you're setting
>>>>>it for the *contents*, all contents, of the element (unless
>>>>>overridden by a sub-setting), which makes perfect sense so that I
>>>>>don't have to set it individually on every child element--that is
>>>>>the power of a hierarchy! You seem to be focused on the
>>>>>technical, with some misunderstanding, versus the spirit of what
>>>>>we're trying to accomplish: telling user agents who our intended
>>>>>audiences is, by language, as best we can...which is why I'm
>>>>>*also* setting lang in the HTTP headers and in page meta tags.
>>>>>>
>>>>>, Lee
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message
>>>>>news:OY**************@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gb l...
>>>>>>re:
>>>>>>!I found an MSDN document that explains why what I'm trying to
>>>>>>do should work
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>Lee,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>From :
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>"A special attribute named xml:lang may be inserted in documents
>>>>>>to specify the
>>>>>>language used in the contents and attribute values of any
>>>>>>element in an XML document."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>If anything, I can see xml:lang being declared for specific
>>>>>>content values, for example :
>>>>>>>
>>>>>><p xml:lang="en-GB">What colour is it?</p>
>>>>>><p xml:lang="en-US">What color is it?</p>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>Then, an xml parser could identify regional US and British
>>>>>>spellings but, given that *all* the attribute values
>>>>>>must be in English in an html doc, what would be the purpose of
>>>>>>declaring xml:lang for the html markup ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>A similar explanation is given here :
>>>>>>http://www.simonstl.com/xmlprim/xmlupdate/atts.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>---000---
>>>>>><SECTION>
>>>>>><DESCRIPTION xml:lang="en">
>>>>>>Caesar begins by describing the geography of Gaul.
>>>>>></DESCRIPTION>
>>>>>><QUOTE xml:lang="la">
>>>>>>Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres, quarum unam incolunt
>>>>>>Belgae,
>>>>>>aliam Aquitani, tertiam qui ipsorum lingua Celtae, nostra Galli
>>>>>>appellantur.
>>>>>></QUOTE>
>>>>>>---000---
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>That's perfectly good usage for xml:lang, as a parser could
>>>>>>selectively identify content in different languages.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>But, it seems to me that setting xml:lang for the html tag's
>>>>>>*attribute* values is unneeded, since they must
>>>>>>be in English, and they must be attributes set to a language
>>>>>>identifier, as defined by IETF RFC 4646
>>>>>>(http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4646.txt).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>So, I think that requisite pretty well establishes the futility
>>>>>>of setting xml:lang for all the attributes in an html document.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>If anything, it seems that the xml:lang attribute is included in
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>html server tag for compatibility purposes, or perhaps out of
>>>>>>ignorance.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>If there's a need to identify that the *contents* of a
>>>>>>particular markup tag are in a
>>>>>>specific language, that identification can be included in the
>>>>>>tag itself, for example :
>>>>>>>
>>>>>><div lang="MX-es" xml:lang="MX-es">
>>>>>>Algo de contenido en espaņol mejicano.
>>>>>></div>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>That makes a lot more sense than setting xml:lang for the
>>>>>>attribute values in the html tag.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
>>>>>>asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
>>>>>>foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
>>>>>>======================================
>>>>>>"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message
>>>>>>news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx .gbl...
>>>>>>>>I found an MSDN document that explains why what I'm trying to do
>>>>>>>>should work.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>ASP.NET Web Server Controls Overview
>>>>>>>http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/zsyt68f1.aspx
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Note the distinction between HTML Server Controls and Web
>>>>>>>Server Controls in the document. Also, note the explanation
>>>>>>>of "pass-through" attributes for HTML Server Controls.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Two quotes that sum it up:
>>>>>>> 1. Any HTML element on a page can be converted to an HTML
>>>>>>>server control by adding the attribute runat="server".
>>>>>>> 2. You can add any attributes you need to an HTML server
>>>>>>>control and the page framework will render them without
>>>>>>>any change in functionality.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>, Lee
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message
>>>>>>>news:Oe**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx. gbl...
>>>>>>>>Juan,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I appreciate your trying to help, but you're wrong, and you
>>>>>>>>are the one who is confused. :]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I am *not* disputing that when inserted programmatically, the
>>>>>>>>xml:lang attribute renders to the browser. I did just
>>>>>>>>that as a work around (right after I discovered this bug);
>>>>>>>>but, I should not have to.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I am *not* confusing html attributes with runat="server"
>>>>>>>>attributes, as you call them. Using your logic, none of the
>>>>>>>>declarative (html) attributes should render to the browser
>>>>>>>>after I add the runat="server" in ASP.NET; yet all of them
>>>>>>>>(xmlns, lang, and dir) do--except xml:lang.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I started with an html element with 4 attributes (xmlns, lang,
>>>>>>>>xml:lang, and dir) all set declaratively. With *no*
>>>>>>>>5th attribute of runat="server", all 4 attributes render. If
>>>>>>>>I add the 5th attribute of runat="server", which does
>>>>>>>>not and should not render, I no longer get all 4 attributes
>>>>>>>>that should render (xmlns, lang, xml:lang, and dir), I
>>>>>>>>only get 3 (xmlns, lang, and dir). My logic says I should get
>>>>>>>>4, your says I should get 3? It would be 4 or 0, and
>>>>>>>>4 is right. Not 0...and not 3.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>When I add runat="server", it does not magically make the
>>>>>>>>xml:lang attribute a server-side attribute, while keeping
>>>>>>>>the other three attributes as "html" attributes. All four are
>>>>>>>>still "html" attributes--which should render.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I think the simplification of my example may be confusing you.
>>>>>>>>It is odd that, in my example, I set runat="server"
>>>>>>>>but do not have any server-side attributes. (I have all 4 as
>>>>>>>>literal strings, for simplicity of an example.) Well,
>>>>>>>>in my real-world use, I do have server-side attributes, which
>>>>>>>>I want set declaratively (no code-beside and no
>>>>>>>>script). I have:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>><html runat="server" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
>>>>>>>> xml:lang="<%$ Resources:GlobalLang, ContentAudienceLanguage
>>>>>>>>%>"
>>>>>>>> lang="<%$ Resources:GlobalLang, ContentAudienceLanguage %>"
>>>>>>>> dir="ltr">
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Both of those declarative explicit localization expressions
>>>>>>>>should work without my having to write any more
>>>>>>>>"procedural" (code-beside) code or script. It actually does
>>>>>>>>work fine for the lang attribute--as it should; but not
>>>>>>>>for the xml:lang attribute--***which is a bug***.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>, Lee
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in message
>>>>>>>>news:u0**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx .gbl...
>>>>>>>>>re:
>>>>>>>>>!I think you are misunderstanding, Juan.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Well, I think you are misunderstanding *me*.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>re:
>>>>>>>>>!I had the xml:lang attribute in the html tag
>>>>>>>>>(declaratively), like this:
>>>>>>>>>>...and it renders to the browser, as it should.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Yes, because it's standard html.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>re:
>>>>>>>>>!If I simply add runat="server"
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>That declares the control to run server side.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>For any attribute to be programmed server-side you need a
>>>>>>>>>script,
>>>>>>>>>just as you need a script to modify any server control's
>>>>>>>>>attributes.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Did you run the sample page I sent ?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>It iterates throught the attributes for the html server
>>>>>>>>>control,
>>>>>>>>>and shows that the xml:lang attribute *is* added
>>>>>>>>>programmatically.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>re:
>>>>>>>>>!If I simply add runat="server", leaving in the xml:lang
>>>>>>>>>attribute that
>>>>>>>>>!renders without runat="server", all of the (declarative)
>>>>>>>>>attributes are
>>>>>>>>>!rendered to the browser--except the xml:lang attribute!
>>>>>>>>>That is a bug.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I think you're confusing html attributes with runat="server"
>>>>>>>>>attributes.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Html attributes can be inserted in normal html.
>>>>>>>>>Server-side attributes must be inserted in code.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Maybe I'm not explaining this as well as I should.
>>>>>>>>>Try to get someone else's opinion on this matter, if you
>>>>>>>>>don't accept mine.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
>>>>>>>>>asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
>>>>>>>>>foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
>>>>>>>>>===================================== =
>>>>>>>>>"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message
>>>>>>>>>news:en**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.ph x.gbl...
>>>>>>>>>>>I think you are misunderstanding, Juan. I had the xml:lang
>>>>>>>>>>>attribute in the html tag (declaratively), like this:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>><html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en-US"
>>>>>>>>>>lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>...and it renders to the browser, as it should.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>If I simply add runat="server", leaving in the xml:lang
>>>>>>>>>>attribute that renders without runat="server", all of the
>>>>>>>>>>(declarative) attributes are rendered to the browser--except
>>>>>>>>>>the xml:lang attribute! That is a bug.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>><html runat="server" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
>>>>>>>>>>xml:lang="en-US" lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Cordially,
>>>>>>>>>>Lee
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in
>>>>>>>>>>message news:ey**************@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>>>>Here's a full example which shows that the xml:lang
>>>>>>>>>>>attribute is added programmatically :
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>attributes.aspx:
>>>>>>>>>>>----------------------
>>>>>>>>>>><%@ Page Language="C#" AutoEventWireup="True" %>
>>>>>>>>>>><html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" runat="server"
>>>>>>>>>>>id="Myid" >
>>>>>>>>>>><script language="C#" runat="server">
>>>>>>>>>>>void Page_Load(Object sender, EventArgs e)
>>>>>>>>>>>{
>>>>>>>>>>>Myid.Attributes.Add("xml:lang", "es");
>>>>>>>>>>>Message.InnerHtml = "<h4>The html control attributes
>>>>>>>>>>>collection contains:</h4>";
>>>>>>>>>>>IEnumerator keys = Myid.Attributes.Keys.GetEnumerator();
>>>>>>>>>>>while (keys.MoveNext())
>>>>>>>>>>>{
>>>>>>>>>>>String key = (String)keys.Current;
>>>>>>>>>>>Message.InnerHtml += key + "=" + Myid.Attributes[key] +
>>>>>>>>>>>"<br />";
>>>>>>>>>>>}
>>>>>>>>>>>}
>>>>>>>>>>></script>
>>>>>>>>>>><head id="Head1" runat="server">
>>>>>>>>>>><title>The html control attributes collection</title>
>>>>>>>>>>></head>
>>>>>>>>>>><body>
>>>>>>>>>>><form id="Form1" runat="server">
>>>>>>>>>>><h3>HtmlControl Attribute Collection Example</h3>
>>>>>>>>>>><br />
>>>>>>>>>>><span id="Message" enableviewstate="false" runat="server"
>>>>>>>>>>>/>
>>>>>>>>>>></form>
>>>>>>>>>>></body>
>>>>>>>>>>></html>
>>>>>>>>>>>----------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>I don't think it's a bug to have to add an attribute
>>>>>>>>>>>programmatically,
>>>>>>>>>>>because the runat="server" tag only *declares* the html
>>>>>>>>>>>control as a programmable control.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>To actually program it, you must use a script.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
>>>>>>>>>>>asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
>>>>>>>>>>>foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
>>>>>>>>>>>=================================== ===
>>>>>>>>>>>"Lee C." <no*****@spammer.comwrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>news:e0**************@TK2MSFTNGP03. phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>>>>>Thanks, Juan.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>I already added similar code to a page event in my
>>>>>>>>>>>>masterpage code-beside.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> elHtml.Attributes.Add("xml:lang",
>>>>>>>>>>>>Resources.GlobalLang.ContentAudien ceLanguage)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>To me, that is a temporary workaround. I still want to
>>>>>>>>>>>>understand whether the "eating" of the attribute I
>>>>>>>>>>>>originally
>>>>>>>>>>>>posted about is a bug, or if this is actually happening
>>>>>>>>>>>>for a reason.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Cordially,
>>>>>>>>>>>>Lee
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.comwrote in
>>>>>>>>>>>>message news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hi, Lee.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>re:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>!<html runat="server"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en-US"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
>>>>>>>>>>>>>!no xml:lang attribute is rendered to the browser!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>!Remove the runat="server", and, voila, the xml:lang
>>>>>>>>>>>>>attribute is rendered.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Try this :
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>><html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" runat="server"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>id="someID">
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>><script runat="server">
>>>>>>>>>>>>>someID.Attributes("xml:lang") = "en-US"
>>>>>>>>>>>>></script>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
>>>>>>>>>>>>>asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>foros de asp.net, en espaņol : http://asp.net.do/foros/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>================================= =====
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>"Lee C." <no****@spam.comwrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>>>news:O%****************@TK2MSFTNG P03.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I think I have discovered a bug in ASP.NET, related to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I18N.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>In ASP.NET 3.5 I have to set runat="server" on the html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>element to use explicit expressions. It appears that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ASP.NET
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>eats the xml:lang attribute on the html element when it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>is set to runat="server".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Of course I want to replace the hardcoded "en-US" values
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>with (resource) explicit expressions; but, for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>simplicity, try this:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>><html runat="server"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en-US"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>lang="en-US" dir="ltr">
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>...And you will find that no xml:lang attribute is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>rendered to the browser! Remove the runat="server", and,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>voila, the xml:lang attribute is rendered. :[
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>...Any ideas?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Cordially,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Lee
Troll disguised as good samaritan
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