Will ClickOnce replace a lot of ASP.Net

[Tina]

While ASP.Net is migrating toward more robust presentation by using things
like AJAX I am wondering if ClickOnce will errode a lot of ASP.Net presence
in Corporate Applications. I've been reading a lot about ClickOnce and it
seems compelling particularily since Vista will have the .Net framework
included along with the other requirements for ClickOnce deployment.

Is there some downside to ClickOnce deployment that I'm now aware of?

Thanks,
T

[Laurent Bugnion]

Hi,

Tina wrote:

While ASP.Net is migrating toward more robust presentation by using things
like AJAX I am wondering if ClickOnce will errode a lot of ASP.Net presence
in Corporate Applications. I've been reading a lot about ClickOnce and it
seems compelling particularily since Vista will have the .Net framework
included along with the other requirements for ClickOnce deployment.

Is there some downside to ClickOnce deployment that I'm now aware of?

Thanks,
T

ClickOnce is not intended as a replacement to standard web applications.
Some downsides of ClickOnce are:

- Longer download times, because the client has to download more
components before it can run things (in the worst case, it has to
download the runtime framework, if not available).

- Except in some cases (WPF browser applications, XBAP), ClickOnce
leaves a trace on the client computer. The application, though it's not
registered in the classic sense (registry), appears in the Start Menu.
That's a downside for the Internet Café scenario, for instance.

- Not universal like HTML, JavaScript and CSS. ClickOnce is only
available when IE is installed, so only on Windows platforms.

I asked Microsoft the exact same question a few months ago, and their
reply is clear: ClickOnce is not going to replace ASP.NET, it's a
complement.

Keep an eye on WPF for Rich Internet Applications, things are moving
fast in the world wide web, but don't worry too much, ASP.NET still has
a bright future.

HTH,
Laurent
--
Laurent Bugnion, GalaSoft
Software engineering: http://www.galasoft-LB.ch
PhotoAlbum: http://www.galasoft-LB.ch/pictures
Support children in Calcutta: http://www.calcutta-espoir.ch

[offwhite]

The push for ClickOnce has died down since Ajax and Atlas became so
popular. People were excited about ClickOnce back in November, 2005
because we could finally push out a rich client with network features
(Smart Client). But with Atlas, you get that and do not have to
install anything locally.

I think Microsoft's efforts are better spent on Atlas, IIS 7 and Vista
at this point. They can come back to ClickOnce if this whole web thing
never takes off.

:)

Brennan

Laurent Bugnion wrote:

Hi,

Tina wrote:

While ASP.Net is migrating toward more robust presentation by using things
like AJAX I am wondering if ClickOnce will errode a lot of ASP.Net presence
in Corporate Applications. I've been reading a lot about ClickOnce andit
seems compelling particularily since Vista will have the .Net framework
included along with the other requirements for ClickOnce deployment.

Is there some downside to ClickOnce deployment that I'm now aware of?

Thanks,
T

ClickOnce is not intended as a replacement to standard web applications.
Some downsides of ClickOnce are:

- Longer download times, because the client has to download more
components before it can run things (in the worst case, it has to
download the runtime framework, if not available).

- Except in some cases (WPF browser applications, XBAP), ClickOnce
leaves a trace on the client computer. The application, though it's not
registered in the classic sense (registry), appears in the Start Menu.
That's a downside for the Internet Café scenario, for instance.

- Not universal like HTML, JavaScript and CSS. ClickOnce is only
available when IE is installed, so only on Windows platforms.

I asked Microsoft the exact same question a few months ago, and their
reply is clear: ClickOnce is not going to replace ASP.NET, it's a
complement.

Keep an eye on WPF for Rich Internet Applications, things are moving
fast in the world wide web, but don't worry too much, ASP.NET still has
a bright future.

HTH,
Laurent
--
Laurent Bugnion, GalaSoft
Software engineering: http://www.galasoft-LB.ch
PhotoAlbum: http://www.galasoft-LB.ch/pictures
Support children in Calcutta: http://www.calcutta-espoir.ch

[Laurent Bugnion]

Hi,

of******@gmail.com wrote:

The push for ClickOnce has died down since Ajax and Atlas became so
popular. People were excited about ClickOnce back in November, 2005
because we could finally push out a rich client with network features
(Smart Client). But with Atlas, you get that and do not have to
install anything locally.

I continue to see RIAs installed over ClickOnce as a valid alternative
to AJAX. The web browser has limitations, and will always have them.
Sometimes it can be interesting to install a rich(er) client anyway.

The sandbox, for example, prevents certain operations in the browser,
and then a rich client becomes necessary. Also, certain graphical
effects (3D, complex animations...) are simply impossible to realize in
HTML, and sometimes plug-ins are not an option.

Isn't it a crazy world, where November 2005 sounds like middle-age? ;-)
(and I concur, it really does)

I think Microsoft's efforts are better spent on Atlas, IIS 7 and Vista
at this point. They can come back to ClickOnce if this whole web thing
never takes off.

I think that Microsoft has enough resources to work on more than one
project at a time ;-) The mere fact that XBAPs are deployed using
ClickOnce shows that this is still of importance to them.

:)

Brennan

HTH,
Laurent
--
Laurent Bugnion, GalaSoft
Software engineering: http://www.galasoft-LB.ch
PhotoAlbum: http://www.galasoft-LB.ch/pictures
Support children in Calcutta: http://www.calcutta-espoir.ch

[Tina]

Laurent,
Well, I'm only thinking about "closed environments" in organizations where
everyone uses Windows with the framework and everyone uses I.E. I develop
enterprise applications with ASP.Net - not public web sites.

That removes a lot of your listed weak points. Also, I view Windows Froms
programing as productive and I view JavaScript and Atlas as more of a
non-productive mix of uh, stuff. Also, AJAX still seems kind of klunky to
me.

BTW, it's not that I am "worried." I think it would be nirvana to write
functionality in Windows Forms.
T

"Laurent Bugnion" <ga*********@bluewin.chwrote in message
news:uB*************@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...

Hi,

Tina wrote:

>While ASP.Net is migrating toward more robust presentation by using
things like AJAX I am wondering if ClickOnce will errode a lot of ASP.Net
presence in Corporate Applications. I've been reading a lot about
ClickOnce and it seems compelling particularily since Vista will have the
.Net framework included along with the other requirements for ClickOnce
deployment.

Is there some downside to ClickOnce deployment that I'm now aware of?

Thanks,
T

ClickOnce is not intended as a replacement to standard web applications.
Some downsides of ClickOnce are:

- Longer download times, because the client has to download more
components before it can run things (in the worst case, it has to download
the runtime framework, if not available).

- Except in some cases (WPF browser applications, XBAP), ClickOnce leaves
a trace on the client computer. The application, though it's not
registered in the classic sense (registry), appears in the Start Menu.
That's a downside for the Internet Café scenario, for instance.

- Not universal like HTML, JavaScript and CSS. ClickOnce is only available
when IE is installed, so only on Windows platforms.

I asked Microsoft the exact same question a few months ago, and their
reply is clear: ClickOnce is not going to replace ASP.NET, it's a
complement.

Keep an eye on WPF for Rich Internet Applications, things are moving fast
in the world wide web, but don't worry too much, ASP.NET still has a
bright future.

HTH,
Laurent
--
Laurent Bugnion, GalaSoft
Software engineering: http://www.galasoft-LB.ch
PhotoAlbum: http://www.galasoft-LB.ch/pictures
Support children in Calcutta: http://www.calcutta-espoir.ch

[offwhite]

I understand what you mean about Javascript slowing you down. It just
another language to add to the mix and it does add time to your test
cycle so you can check the browsers you have to support. (now IE6 and
IE7)

But there are professional controls suites out there beyond Micorosoft
Atlas. Here are the top ones that I know about. For the price of
those controls you could eliminate the need to ever touch Javascript.

http://www.infragistics.com/resource...X/Default.aspx

http://www.componentart.com/webui.aspx

Brennan Stehling
http://brennan.offwhite.net/blog/
Tina wrote:

Laurent,
Well, I'm only thinking about "closed environments" in organizations where
everyone uses Windows with the framework and everyone uses I.E. I develop
enterprise applications with ASP.Net - not public web sites.

That removes a lot of your listed weak points. Also, I view Windows Froms
programing as productive and I view JavaScript and Atlas as more of a
non-productive mix of uh, stuff. Also, AJAX still seems kind of klunky to
me.

BTW, it's not that I am "worried." I think it would be nirvana to write
functionality in Windows Forms.
T

"Laurent Bugnion" <ga*********@bluewin.chwrote in message
news:uB*************@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...

Hi,

Tina wrote:

While ASP.Net is migrating toward more robust presentation by using
things like AJAX I am wondering if ClickOnce will errode a lot of ASP.Net
presence in Corporate Applications. I've been reading a lot about
ClickOnce and it seems compelling particularily since Vista will have the
.Net framework included along with the other requirements for ClickOnce
deployment.

Is there some downside to ClickOnce deployment that I'm now aware of?

Thanks,
T

ClickOnce is not intended as a replacement to standard web applications.
Some downsides of ClickOnce are:

- Longer download times, because the client has to download more
components before it can run things (in the worst case, it has to download
the runtime framework, if not available).

- Except in some cases (WPF browser applications, XBAP), ClickOnce leaves
a trace on the client computer. The application, though it's not
registered in the classic sense (registry), appears in the Start Menu.
That's a downside for the Internet Café scenario, for instance.

- Not universal like HTML, JavaScript and CSS. ClickOnce is only available
when IE is installed, so only on Windows platforms.

I asked Microsoft the exact same question a few months ago, and their
reply is clear: ClickOnce is not going to replace ASP.NET, it's a
complement.

Keep an eye on WPF for Rich Internet Applications, things are moving fast
in the world wide web, but don't worry too much, ASP.NET still has a
bright future.

HTH,
Laurent
--
Laurent Bugnion, GalaSoft
Software engineering: http://www.galasoft-LB.ch
PhotoAlbum: http://www.galasoft-LB.ch/pictures
Support children in Calcutta: http://www.calcutta-espoir.ch

[Laurent Bugnion]

Hi,

Tina wrote:

Laurent,
Well, I'm only thinking about "closed environments" in organizations where
everyone uses Windows with the framework and everyone uses I.E. I develop
enterprise applications with ASP.Net - not public web sites.

That removes a lot of your listed weak points. Also, I view Windows Froms
programing as productive and I view JavaScript and Atlas as more of a
non-productive mix of uh, stuff. Also, AJAX still seems kind of klunky to
me.

I am wondering why you see that as "klunky". It's simply a client-server
communication mechanism. It's very similar to, say, .NET remoting. Of
course it's asynchronous, so it needs to be very aware of what you're
doing, but it's a modern way of programming anyway, unlike procedural,
sequential applications. Or maybe I don't understand what you mean with
"klunky"...

As for JavaScript and ATLAS, it's very necessary to understand how the
web works to program web applications. JavaScript is a very powerful
language, and very flexible. But most JavaScript programmers don't truly
understand this power, and use it wrongly.

I think that many desktop applications programmers have a hard time
changing to web application programming, because the concepts are very
different, because of certain limitations that have to be considered,
etc... Each scenario calls for a careful analysis, helping you to choose
which application model you need. For the records, in the project I work
on now, we are spending a lot of time carefully analysing the
alternatives. For us, the possible candidates are: A classical web
application, a web application with WPF/E, a XBAP application, a WPF
application deployed via ClickOnce, or a WPF application deployed via
MSI installation. WinForms are not an interesting alternative for us
anymore.

>
BTW, it's not that I am "worried." I think it would be nirvana to write
functionality in Windows Forms.

Since I started working with WPF, it's not really attractive for me to
go back to Windows Forms... I guess that every technology brings a whole
new world of possibilities ;-)

T

Greetings,
Laurent
--
Laurent Bugnion, GalaSoft
Software engineering: http://www.galasoft-LB.ch
PhotoAlbum: http://www.galasoft-LB.ch/pictures
Support children in Calcutta: http://www.calcutta-espoir.ch

[Tina]

Laurent,
After reading up on this a bit it seems that the idea of WinFroms deployed
via clickOnce has been replaced by Extensible Application Markup Language
Browser Applications (XBAP).

I went to the MSDN page where it looks like I can download beta WINFX 3.0
software but I'm afraid to do that on my main dev box because Beta software
usually gums up things when the release version comes out.

Is it viable to write XBAP apps today with the beta software?

Does XBAP eliminate the need for ATLAS and JavaScript?

(i notice there is a link to a "Blackjack Express Demo" XBAP application but
it just leads to a download page where I have to build it myself using the
beta software. Is there anyplace where I run an XBAP app in my browser?)

Regards,
T
"Laurent Bugnion" <ga*********@bluewin.chwrote in message
news:uI**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

Hi,

Tina wrote:

>Laurent,
Well, I'm only thinking about "closed environments" in organizations
where everyone uses Windows with the framework and everyone uses I.E. I
develop enterprise applications with ASP.Net - not public web sites.

That removes a lot of your listed weak points. Also, I view Windows
Froms programing as productive and I view JavaScript and Atlas as more of
a non-productive mix of uh, stuff. Also, AJAX still seems kind of
klunky to me.

I am wondering why you see that as "klunky". It's simply a client-server
communication mechanism. It's very similar to, say, .NET remoting. Of
course it's asynchronous, so it needs to be very aware of what you're
doing, but it's a modern way of programming anyway, unlike procedural,
sequential applications. Or maybe I don't understand what you mean with
"klunky"...

As for JavaScript and ATLAS, it's very necessary to understand how the web
works to program web applications. JavaScript is a very powerful language,
and very flexible. But most JavaScript programmers don't truly understand
this power, and use it wrongly.

I think that many desktop applications programmers have a hard time
changing to web application programming, because the concepts are very
different, because of certain limitations that have to be considered,
etc... Each scenario calls for a careful analysis, helping you to choose
which application model you need. For the records, in the project I work
on now, we are spending a lot of time carefully analysing the
alternatives. For us, the possible candidates are: A classical web
application, a web application with WPF/E, a XBAP application, a WPF
application deployed via ClickOnce, or a WPF application deployed via MSI
installation. WinForms are not an interesting alternative for us anymore.

>>
BTW, it's not that I am "worried." I think it would be nirvana to write
functionality in Windows Forms.

Since I started working with WPF, it's not really attractive for me to go
back to Windows Forms... I guess that every technology brings a whole new
world of possibilities ;-)

>T

Greetings,
Laurent
--
Laurent Bugnion, GalaSoft
Software engineering: http://www.galasoft-LB.ch
PhotoAlbum: http://www.galasoft-LB.ch/pictures
Support children in Calcutta: http://www.calcutta-espoir.ch

[Laurent Bugnion]

Hi Tina,

Tina wrote:

Laurent,
After reading up on this a bit it seems that the idea of WinFroms deployed
via clickOnce has been replaced by Extensible Application Markup Language
Browser Applications (XBAP).

No, I don't think that's correct. I think that WPF applications will
eventually replace WinForms, but XBAP will target another group of
users. XBAPs are richer applications than HTML, but have less rights
than installed, standalone applications. I really see that as a new
target. Think of XBAPs a little like Flash applications without the HTML
"container" around it.

I went to the MSDN page where it looks like I can download beta WINFX 3.0
software but I'm afraid to do that on my main dev box because Beta software
usually gums up things when the release version comes out.

Is it viable to write XBAP apps today with the beta software?

Yes, the current CTP (community technology preview) is very stable. I
know that many firms are even starting to develop productive software
with WPF. In any case it is more than sufficient to test the concepts
and write prototypes.

I recommend against the July CTP though. It is not complete (the
development environment is missing). Rather install the June CTP. See here:
http://geekswithblogs.net/lbugnion/a.../02/83859.aspx

Does XBAP eliminate the need for ATLAS and JavaScript?

No. Absolutely not. It's a very different scenario. What the future
(say, what web apps will be in 5 to 10 years) is difficult to know, but
I am very confident that HTML based applications will still be developed
then, and also other RIAs (rich internet applications), for example with
WPF or other technologies. The next years are really going to be
incredibly interesting, stay posted ;-)

(i notice there is a link to a "Blackjack Express Demo" XBAP application but
it just leads to a download page where I have to build it myself using the
beta software. Is there anyplace where I run an XBAP app in my browser?)

I have a few prototypes on my site
http://www.galasoft-lb.ch/mydotnet/W...veX/index.html
http://www.galasoft-lb.ch/mydotnet/W...dow/index.html
http://www.galasoft-lb.ch/mydotnet/W...Ups/index.html

but they're really just prototypes, or proof of concepts. Additionally,
there is my WPF demo here
http://www.galasoft-lb.ch/mydotnet/G...emo/index.html

However the demo is standalone. For very nice XBAP apps, check this:
http://www.valil.com/winfx/Valil.Chess.WinFX.xbap
http://www.valil.com/CrystalBall/CrystalBall.xbap

There are more out there, keep in mind though that you need to have the
correct version of the framework installed.

HTH,
Laurent
--
Laurent Bugnion, GalaSoft
Software engineering: http://www.galasoft-LB.ch
PhotoAlbum: http://www.galasoft-LB.ch/pictures
Support children in Calcutta: http://www.calcutta-espoir.ch