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Best Practices Question #4

P: n/a
Hello:
I am deploying a new web site that will have over 100 pages.
In the ASP world, I would create templtes - include files, etc... to easily
"manage" the site.
In asp.net 2.0 I want to create a web control but apparently I have to
"create" a web site first.
Concern #1: is VS an appropriate interface to manage 100+ web pages site
conversely
Concern #2: when asp.net 3.0 comes there might be fundamental structural
issues the 3.0 does not like.
Question: should I "break-up" my site into smaller "web sites" ?
I have been a web developer for over 10 years with a lot of ASP experience
and I am encountering this new DOTNET paradigm with discomfort.
For example, I wanted to have a javascript enabled button that would let my
users rate the page they are on. in ASP I would have used <%=
Request.ServerVariables(PATH_INFO) %> as a parameter passed as a querystring
for the survey window... simple! and effective! Now I have to build a
control and have a placeholder, etc....

It's Monday !;-(
Thanks
T
Nov 28 '05 #1
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8 Replies


P: n/a
Hi T,
In the ASP world, I would create templtes - include files, etc... to
easily "manage" the site.
Okay, this is common, and a common mistake. Here's why:
I have been a web developer for over 10 years with a lot of ASP experience
and I am encountering this new DOTNET paradigm with discomfort.
ASP and ASP.Net have a number of things in common. They both operate in an
HTTP Request/Response environment. They both dynamically generate HTML, and
create HTML documents. They are both programming technologies, and they are
both ISAPIs on a web server. However, that is about where the similarity
ends.

Your discomfort is completely understandable, and again, quite common. It
comes from years of experience with ASP and procedural script-oriented web
application development, being challenged with a completely different
paradigm, that of object-oriented, strongly-structured ASP.Net. Migrating
from ASP to ASP.Net is like migrating from an automatic transmission to a
manual stick shift. Everything works differently. And it is discomforting at
first getting used to thinking differently.

The problem lies not only with the difference between procedural versus
object-oriented programming, but also with the structure of the ASP.Net
programming model. ASP has very little structure. That is, you are almost
completely in control of how your application responds to a Request, how it
maintains state, how client-side events are handled, etc. ASP.Net, on the
other hand, comes with a strongly-structured programming model, based upon
the concept of a Server Control, or more accurately, System.Web.UI.Control.
Everything in an ASP.Net web page, from the first <html> tag to the last, is
in fact, a Server Control of one sort or another. Everything outside of a
WebForm is generally a Literal Control (with a few exceptions), and
everything inside the Web Form is a Server Control of one sort or another.

The programming model of ASP.Net uses an elaborate system of server-side
object-oriented programming, mixed with client-side HTML, JavaScript and
(usually) CSS, to emulate a stateful environment where no state truly
exists, and to provide an event model which mimmicks the traditional event
model of a desktop application. As the environment is so different, so is
the mechanism for mimmicking the desktop environment. The programming model
is complex, and difficult to understand and/or master.

The good news is, once you get used to it, it works beautifully, and once
you learn enough about object-oriented programming and the ASP.Net
programming paradigm, it becomes so much easier to work with, and especially
to maintain, support, and extend than ASP. Be patient, and stick with it!

Now, as to your specific questions:
Concern #1: is VS an appropriate interface to manage 100+ web pages site
Yes. Absolutely.
Concern #2: when asp.net 3.0 comes there might be fundamental structural
issues the 3.0 does not like.
The 2.0 paradigm differs significantly from the 1.1 paradigm, but only at a
certain (high) level. Underneath it all, it works very much the same. It is
better to think of the 2.0 (and the 3.0 in the future) model as extending,
rather than replacing the 1.1 model. There is no overarching reason to make
the switch in any great hurry therefore.
Question: should I "break-up" my site into smaller "web sites" ?
Most probably not. Having more than one web application is problematic. If
you can say why you think you should, we can probably suggest alternatives.

Hang in there, bro! We do a bit of bleeding on the cutting edge, but what a
view!

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
If you push something hard enough,
it will fall over.
- Fudd's First Law of Opposition

"Support" <Re****************@mail.oci.state.ga.us> wrote in message
news:eC*************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl... Hello:
I am deploying a new web site that will have over 100 pages.
In the ASP world, I would create templtes - include files, etc... to
easily "manage" the site.
In asp.net 2.0 I want to create a web control but apparently I have to
"create" a web site first.
Concern #1: is VS an appropriate interface to manage 100+ web pages site
conversely
Concern #2: when asp.net 3.0 comes there might be fundamental structural
issues the 3.0 does not like.
Question: should I "break-up" my site into smaller "web sites" ?
I have been a web developer for over 10 years with a lot of ASP experience
and I am encountering this new DOTNET paradigm with discomfort.
For example, I wanted to have a javascript enabled button that would let
my users rate the page they are on. in ASP I would have used <%=
Request.ServerVariables(PATH_INFO) %> as a parameter passed as a
querystring for the survey window... simple! and effective! Now I have to
build a control and have a placeholder, etc....

It's Monday !;-(
Thanks
T

Nov 28 '05 #2

P: n/a
Thanks Spencer! Great positive answer.
Take care
T
"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:eg**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
Hi T,
In the ASP world, I would create templtes - include files, etc... to
easily "manage" the site.


Okay, this is common, and a common mistake. Here's why:
I have been a web developer for over 10 years with a lot of ASP
experience and I am encountering this new DOTNET paradigm with
discomfort.


ASP and ASP.Net have a number of things in common. They both operate in an
HTTP Request/Response environment. They both dynamically generate HTML,
and create HTML documents. They are both programming technologies, and
they are both ISAPIs on a web server. However, that is about where the
similarity ends.

Your discomfort is completely understandable, and again, quite common. It
comes from years of experience with ASP and procedural script-oriented web
application development, being challenged with a completely different
paradigm, that of object-oriented, strongly-structured ASP.Net. Migrating
from ASP to ASP.Net is like migrating from an automatic transmission to a
manual stick shift. Everything works differently. And it is discomforting
at first getting used to thinking differently.

The problem lies not only with the difference between procedural versus
object-oriented programming, but also with the structure of the ASP.Net
programming model. ASP has very little structure. That is, you are almost
completely in control of how your application responds to a Request, how
it maintains state, how client-side events are handled, etc. ASP.Net, on
the other hand, comes with a strongly-structured programming model, based
upon the concept of a Server Control, or more accurately,
System.Web.UI.Control. Everything in an ASP.Net web page, from the first
<html> tag to the last, is in fact, a Server Control of one sort or
another. Everything outside of a WebForm is generally a Literal Control
(with a few exceptions), and everything inside the Web Form is a Server
Control of one sort or another.

The programming model of ASP.Net uses an elaborate system of server-side
object-oriented programming, mixed with client-side HTML, JavaScript and
(usually) CSS, to emulate a stateful environment where no state truly
exists, and to provide an event model which mimmicks the traditional event
model of a desktop application. As the environment is so different, so is
the mechanism for mimmicking the desktop environment. The programming
model is complex, and difficult to understand and/or master.

The good news is, once you get used to it, it works beautifully, and once
you learn enough about object-oriented programming and the ASP.Net
programming paradigm, it becomes so much easier to work with, and
especially to maintain, support, and extend than ASP. Be patient, and
stick with it!

Now, as to your specific questions:
Concern #1: is VS an appropriate interface to manage 100+ web pages site


Yes. Absolutely.
Concern #2: when asp.net 3.0 comes there might be fundamental structural
issues the 3.0 does not like.


The 2.0 paradigm differs significantly from the 1.1 paradigm, but only at
a certain (high) level. Underneath it all, it works very much the same. It
is better to think of the 2.0 (and the 3.0 in the future) model as
extending, rather than replacing the 1.1 model. There is no overarching
reason to make the switch in any great hurry therefore.
Question: should I "break-up" my site into smaller "web sites" ?


Most probably not. Having more than one web application is problematic. If
you can say why you think you should, we can probably suggest
alternatives.

Hang in there, bro! We do a bit of bleeding on the cutting edge, but what
a view!

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
If you push something hard enough,
it will fall over.
- Fudd's First Law of Opposition

"Support" <Re****************@mail.oci.state.ga.us> wrote in message
news:eC*************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
Hello:
I am deploying a new web site that will have over 100 pages.
In the ASP world, I would create templtes - include files, etc... to
easily "manage" the site.
In asp.net 2.0 I want to create a web control but apparently I have to
"create" a web site first.
Concern #1: is VS an appropriate interface to manage 100+ web pages site
conversely
Concern #2: when asp.net 3.0 comes there might be fundamental structural
issues the 3.0 does not like.
Question: should I "break-up" my site into smaller "web sites" ?
I have been a web developer for over 10 years with a lot of ASP
experience and I am encountering this new DOTNET paradigm with
discomfort.
For example, I wanted to have a javascript enabled button that would let
my users rate the page they are on. in ASP I would have used <%=
Request.ServerVariables(PATH_INFO) %> as a parameter passed as a
querystring for the survey window... simple! and effective! Now I have to
build a control and have a placeholder, etc....

It's Monday !;-(
Thanks
T


Nov 28 '05 #3

P: n/a
Kevin, that was a fantastic answer, how much did Microsoft pay you :-)

Nov 29 '05 #4

P: n/a
> Kevin, that was a fantastic answer, how much did Microsoft pay you :-)

If I told you, I'd have to kill you.

--
;-),

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
If you push something hard enough,
it will fall over.
- Fudd's First Law of Opposition

<ga**********@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:11**********************@g47g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
Kevin, that was a fantastic answer, how much did Microsoft pay you :-)

Nov 29 '05 #5

P: n/a
How long have you been an MVP by the way?

Nov 29 '05 #6

P: n/a
> How long have you been an MVP by the way?

Had to look it up. Since 1997. Almost nine years.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
If you push something hard enough,
it will fall over.
- Fudd's First Law of Opposition

<ga**********@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:11**********************@g44g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
How long have you been an MVP by the way?

Nov 29 '05 #7

P: n/a
October, 1997, IIRC.

You and I became MVPs at the same time.

Juan T. Llibre
ASP.NET.FAQ : http://asp.net.do/faq/
ASPNETFAQ.COM : http://www.aspnetfaq.com/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================

"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
How long have you been an MVP by the way?


Had to look it up. Since 1997. Almost nine years.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
If you push something hard enough,
it will fall over.
- Fudd's First Law of Opposition

<ga**********@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:11**********************@g44g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
How long have you been an MVP by the way?


Nov 29 '05 #8

P: n/a
> October, 1997, IIRC.

You and I became MVPs at the same time.
Wow. Well, just over 8 years, then! And what a coincidence, that we became
MVPs at the same time. I wonder if I ever met you at a summit?

--

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
If you push something hard enough,
it will fall over.
- Fudd's First Law of Opposition

"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:eB*************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl... October, 1997, IIRC.

You and I became MVPs at the same time.

Juan T. Llibre
ASP.NET.FAQ : http://asp.net.do/faq/
ASPNETFAQ.COM : http://www.aspnetfaq.com/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================

Nov 29 '05 #9

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