Visual Programming!

[Adam J Knight]

Hi all,

Just a general question, wondering what the seasoned asp.netters think?

I have been a bit of a coding purist for a while now. Prefering to write all
code (presentation, and business logic) myself rather than
relying on some sort of wysiwig editor or ide.

Partyly due to being a little obsessive, and having a intense dislike for
messy redundant code.

Lately in my quest i to not having to work so hard, i have begun to rectify
the error of my ways.
That is i am considering taking advantage of the visual drag drop, connect
to datasource pushing buttom kind of programming.

I may be slow, slightly kamakazi'sh for not doing so until know, but i
thought that is what 'real' programmers do; write their own code.
Have i missed something, are the rest of you guys using the ide's, wysiwigs
and wizards to your advantage.

Am i behind the eight ball so to speak?

Reading the .NET 2.0 documentation push buttom kind of programming seems to
be the standard, encouraged and assumed.

Should i give up my coding purist mentality and become a visual programmer?

Just wondering what everyone else thinks ?

Cheers,
Adam

[Terry Olsen]

Productivity! I'd much rather let the IDE worry about the presentation part
of the app. It allows more time for chewing on the meat.
"Adam J Knight" <ad**********@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:ec**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...

Hi all,

Just a general question, wondering what the seasoned asp.netters think?

I have been a bit of a coding purist for a while now. Prefering to write
all code (presentation, and business logic) myself rather than
relying on some sort of wysiwig editor or ide.

Partyly due to being a little obsessive, and having a intense dislike for
messy redundant code.

Lately in my quest i to not having to work so hard, i have begun to
rectify the error of my ways.
That is i am considering taking advantage of the visual drag drop, connect
to datasource pushing buttom kind of programming.

I may be slow, slightly kamakazi'sh for not doing so until know, but i
thought that is what 'real' programmers do; write their own code.
Have i missed something, are the rest of you guys using the ide's,
wysiwigs and wizards to your advantage.

Am i behind the eight ball so to speak?

Reading the .NET 2.0 documentation push buttom kind of programming seems
to be the standard, encouraged and assumed.

Should i give up my coding purist mentality and become a visual
programmer?

Just wondering what everyone else thinks ?

Cheers,
Adam

[Eliyahu Goldin]

I think it is normal for a programmer to start with using visual tools and
to move away from them with experience. It's like choosing between cars with
manual and automatic transmission. If you are not an experienced driver, or
you don't want to spend time on learning how to drive on manual, go for
automatic and you will make less mistakes. Otherwise you will drive better
on manual.

Another benefit of the "manual" coding is that it makes difference tracking
in version control much easier.

Eliyahu

"Adam J Knight" <ad**********@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:ec**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...

Hi all,

Just a general question, wondering what the seasoned asp.netters think?

I have been a bit of a coding purist for a while now. Prefering to write all code (presentation, and business logic) myself rather than
relying on some sort of wysiwig editor or ide.

Partyly due to being a little obsessive, and having a intense dislike for
messy redundant code.

Lately in my quest i to not having to work so hard, i have begun to rectify the error of my ways.
That is i am considering taking advantage of the visual drag drop, connect
to datasource pushing buttom kind of programming.

I may be slow, slightly kamakazi'sh for not doing so until know, but i
thought that is what 'real' programmers do; write their own code.
Have i missed something, are the rest of you guys using the ide's, wysiwigs and wizards to your advantage.

Am i behind the eight ball so to speak?

Reading the .NET 2.0 documentation push buttom kind of programming seems to be the standard, encouraged and assumed.

Should i give up my coding purist mentality and become a visual programmer?
Just wondering what everyone else thinks ?

Cheers,
Adam

[Fred Exley]

"Adam J Knight" <ad**********@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:ec**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...

Hi all,

Just a general question, wondering what the seasoned asp.netters think?

I have been a bit of a coding purist for a while now. Prefering to write
all code (presentation, and business logic) myself rather than
relying on some sort of wysiwig editor or ide.

Partyly due to being a little obsessive, and having a intense dislike for
messy redundant code.

Lately in my quest i to not having to work so hard, i have begun to
rectify the error of my ways.
That is i am considering taking advantage of the visual drag drop, connect
to datasource pushing buttom kind of programming.

I may be slow, slightly kamakazi'sh for not doing so until know, but i
thought that is what 'real' programmers do; write their own code.
Have i missed something, are the rest of you guys using the ide's,
wysiwigs and wizards to your advantage.

Am i behind the eight ball so to speak?

Reading the .NET 2.0 documentation push buttom kind of programming seems
to be the standard, encouraged and assumed.

Should i give up my coding purist mentality and become a visual
programmer?

Just wondering what everyone else thinks ?

Cheers,
Adam

A good analogy to coding a complex app is piloting a high-speed aircraft.
All the airlines train their pilots thoroughly on every aspect of hands-on
flying. And do you know what then is required of the pilots when they're
actually in the air? They are required to put the plane on autopilot as
much as practicable. Why? Because the autopilot is both faster and more
precise, resulting in better fuel economy and navigation accuracy. The
pilot provides the brains, guiding the autopilot so that it doesn't
accurately and efficiently take the plane nowhere of interest to the
passengers.

Same thing with coding. As long as you know what the helper tools are
really doing, let them, and use the time saved to concentrate on what the
tools can't do -the thinking part!

-Fred

[Daniel Walzenbach]

Adam,

I totally agree with Terry and Fred! Use your productivity and creativity on
parts which automated tools can't provide. for the rest why not use them?
It's all about knowing what happens "behind the scenes"...

Regards

Daniel

"Fred Exley" <fe*******@cox.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:%2****************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...

"Adam J Knight" <ad**********@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:ec**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...

Hi all,

Just a general question, wondering what the seasoned asp.netters think?

I have been a bit of a coding purist for a while now. Prefering to write
all code (presentation, and business logic) myself rather than
relying on some sort of wysiwig editor or ide.

Partyly due to being a little obsessive, and having a intense dislike for
messy redundant code.

Lately in my quest i to not having to work so hard, i have begun to
rectify the error of my ways.
That is i am considering taking advantage of the visual drag drop,
connect to datasource pushing buttom kind of programming.

I may be slow, slightly kamakazi'sh for not doing so until know, but i
thought that is what 'real' programmers do; write their own code.
Have i missed something, are the rest of you guys using the ide's,
wysiwigs and wizards to your advantage.

Am i behind the eight ball so to speak?

Reading the .NET 2.0 documentation push buttom kind of programming seems
to be the standard, encouraged and assumed.

Should i give up my coding purist mentality and become a visual
programmer?

Just wondering what everyone else thinks ?

Cheers,
Adam

A good analogy to coding a complex app is piloting a high-speed aircraft.
All the airlines train their pilots thoroughly on every aspect of hands-on
flying. And do you know what then is required of the pilots when they're
actually in the air? They are required to put the plane on autopilot as
much as practicable. Why? Because the autopilot is both faster and more
precise, resulting in better fuel economy and navigation accuracy. The
pilot provides the brains, guiding the autopilot so that it doesn't
accurately and efficiently take the plane nowhere of interest to the
passengers.

Same thing with coding. As long as you know what the helper tools are
really doing, let them, and use the time saved to concentrate on what the
tools can't do -the thinking part!

-Fred

[Alan Silver]

Just to add some contrast to what everyone else said (!!)...

Hi all,

Just a general question, wondering what the seasoned asp.netters think?
Well, I'm not seasoned compared to most here, but I've been doing it
quite heavily for about six months, so I guess I could just about scrape
in with your requirement ;-)
I have been a bit of a coding purist for a while now. Prefering to write all
code (presentation, and business logic) myself rather than
relying on some sort of wysiwig editor or ide.
Me too, did exactly the same.
Partyly due to being a little obsessive, and having a intense dislike for
messy redundant code.
Me too, I'm exactly the same ;-)
Lately in my quest i to not having to work so hard, i have begun to rectify
the error of my ways.
That is i am considering taking advantage of the visual drag drop, connect
to datasource pushing buttom kind of programming.
Me too, I'm, err, exactyl the same ;-))
I may be slow, slightly kamakazi'sh for not doing so until know, but i
thought that is what 'real' programmers do; write their own code.
Have i missed something, are the rest of you guys using the ide's, wysiwigs
and wizards to your advantage.

Am i behind the eight ball so to speak?
Well, I would like to suggest that you probably have an advantage over
the majority of ASP.NET programmers. Excluding the gurus here (and there
are a few), I suspect that most people don't have as deep a knowledge of
what's going on behind the scenes as they should. Allowing the tools to
write your code saves a lot of time, but doesn't give you the depth of
understanding.

My first ventures into ASP.NET were with WebMatrix. I used all the tools
it had to offer and produced some pages, without really knowing what was
going on. I felt out of control, and so didn't really enjoy it.

I then turned to writing purely by hand. My only help was a text editor
that had autocompletion (ie, I type asplit and it replaces it with
<asp:Literal ID="" Text="" RunAt="server" />, with the cursor in place
to type the ID). I did this for six months, and ended up feeling I had a
strong sense of what was going on. I now feel confident writing ASP.NET
pages purely from scratch, and am happy that I know what's going on.

Now I have this understanding, I feel happier about trying VWD. Now when
I push a button and it writes loads of code for me, I feel I know what
it's doing. I still feel a little nervous about letting it do the work
for me, but that's 'cos I'm a control freak and am paranoid about other
people/things produce my code. I guess that this feeling will subside
over time, provided I am convinced that the tools write decent code -
something that WebMatrix didn't do, but VWD (and presumably VS2005)
seems to.
Reading the .NET 2.0 documentation push buttom kind of programming seems to
be the standard, encouraged and assumed.
That's always been MS' way though, it's not an ASP.NET thing, nor even a
..NET thing.
Should i give up my coding purist mentality and become a visual programmer?
Do both. Use the tools, but don't be afraid to write code by hand. Use
the tools, but get into the habit of checking the code that has been
written for you and make sure you are happy with it. Don't be afraid of
changing the code it produces. These tools are not perfect, mainly
because they were written by humans. Sometimes they produce poor code,
and you have the right to change it.

Having said that, once you know what the tools do, and know when to
trust them and when not, they can save loads of time. You have to keepo
a foot in each camp.
Just wondering what everyone else thinks ?
Well, there's my 2c. I'm sure others will disagree, and that's fine. We
each have our own way of working. Your description of yourself struck a
cord with me ;-)

Ta ra
alan
Cheers,
Adam

--
Alan Silver
(anything added below this line is nothing to do with me)

[Patrick.O.Ige]

I agree with you Alan
Patrick

"Alan Silver" <al*********@nospam.thanx> wrote in message
news:ix**************@nospamthankyou.spam...

Just to add some contrast to what everyone else said (!!)...

Hi all,

Just a general question, wondering what the seasoned asp.netters think?
Well, I'm not seasoned compared to most here, but I've been doing it
quite heavily for about six months, so I guess I could just about scrape
in with your requirement ;-)

I have been a bit of a coding purist for a while now. Prefering to write allcode (presentation, and business logic) myself rather than
relying on some sort of wysiwig editor or ide.

Me too, did exactly the same.

Partyly due to being a little obsessive, and having a intense dislike for
messy redundant code.

Me too, I'm exactly the same ;-)

Lately in my quest i to not having to work so hard, i have begun to rectifythe error of my ways.
That is i am considering taking advantage of the visual drag drop, connectto datasource pushing buttom kind of programming.

Me too, I'm, err, exactyl the same ;-))

I may be slow, slightly kamakazi'sh for not doing so until know, but i
thought that is what 'real' programmers do; write their own code.
Have i missed something, are the rest of you guys using the ide's, wysiwigsand wizards to your advantage.

Am i behind the eight ball so to speak?

Well, I would like to suggest that you probably have an advantage over
the majority of ASP.NET programmers. Excluding the gurus here (and there
are a few), I suspect that most people don't have as deep a knowledge of
what's going on behind the scenes as they should. Allowing the tools to
write your code saves a lot of time, but doesn't give you the depth of
understanding.

My first ventures into ASP.NET were with WebMatrix. I used all the tools
it had to offer and produced some pages, without really knowing what was
going on. I felt out of control, and so didn't really enjoy it.

I then turned to writing purely by hand. My only help was a text editor
that had autocompletion (ie, I type asplit and it replaces it with
<asp:Literal ID="" Text="" RunAt="server" />, with the cursor in place
to type the ID). I did this for six months, and ended up feeling I had a
strong sense of what was going on. I now feel confident writing ASP.NET
pages purely from scratch, and am happy that I know what's going on.

Now I have this understanding, I feel happier about trying VWD. Now when
I push a button and it writes loads of code for me, I feel I know what
it's doing. I still feel a little nervous about letting it do the work
for me, but that's 'cos I'm a control freak and am paranoid about other
people/things produce my code. I guess that this feeling will subside
over time, provided I am convinced that the tools write decent code -
something that WebMatrix didn't do, but VWD (and presumably VS2005)
seems to.

Reading the .NET 2.0 documentation push buttom kind of programming seems tobe the standard, encouraged and assumed.

That's always been MS' way though, it's not an ASP.NET thing, nor even a
.NET thing.

Should i give up my coding purist mentality and become a visual

programmer?
Do both. Use the tools, but don't be afraid to write code by hand. Use
the tools, but get into the habit of checking the code that has been
written for you and make sure you are happy with it. Don't be afraid of
changing the code it produces. These tools are not perfect, mainly
because they were written by humans. Sometimes they produce poor code,
and you have the right to change it.

Having said that, once you know what the tools do, and know when to
trust them and when not, they can save loads of time. You have to keepo
a foot in each camp.

Just wondering what everyone else thinks ?

Well, there's my 2c. I'm sure others will disagree, and that's fine. We
each have our own way of working. Your description of yourself struck a
cord with me ;-)

Ta ra
alan

Cheers,
Adam

--
Alan Silver
(anything added below this line is nothing to do with me)

[Kevin Spencer]

I agree with everyone that agrees with me, but do not necessarily disagree
with anyone who does not agree with me, particularly if what they say is not
strictly a disagreement, but merely something different which I did not
mention.

--
;-),

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
There's a seeker born every minute.
- Dr. "Happy" Harry Cox

"Patrick.O.Ige" <pa********@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...

I agree with you Alan
Patrick

[Alan Silver]

>I agree with everyone that agrees with me, but do not necessarily disagree

with anyone who does not agree with me, particularly if what they say is not
strictly a disagreement, but merely something different which I did not
mention.

Have you ever thought of going into politics? You're a natural!!

--
Alan Silver
(anything added below this line is nothing to do with me)

[Kevin Spencer]

> Have you ever thought of going into politics? You're a natural!!

I suppose I could. Apparently, I'm a failure as a comedian.

--
Whoosh,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
If you push something hard enough,
it will fall over.
- Fudd's First Law of Opposition

"Alan Silver" <al*********@nospam.thanx> wrote in message
news:dY**************@nospamthankyou.spam...

I agree with everyone that agrees with me, but do not necessarily
disagree
with anyone who does not agree with me, particularly if what they say is
not
strictly a disagreement, but merely something different which I did not
mention.

Have you ever thought of going into politics? You're a natural!!

--
Alan Silver
(anything added below this line is nothing to do with me)

[Alan Silver]

>> Have you ever thought of going into politics? You're a natural!!

I suppose I could. Apparently, I'm a failure as a comedian.

I never really saw much difference between them!!

--
Alan Silver
(anything added below this line is nothing to do with me)

[Juan T. Llibre]

The difference is that people can joke about the politicians,
but the politicians make a joke of the people.

Juan T. Llibre, ASP.NET MVP
ASP.NET FAQ : http://asp.net.do/faq/
ASPNETFAQ.COM : http://www.aspnetfaq.com/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"Alan Silver" <al*********@nospam.thanx> wrote in message
news:kF**************@nospamthankyou.spam...

Have you ever thought of going into politics? You're a natural!!
I suppose I could. Apparently, I'm a failure as a comedian.

I never really saw much difference between them!!

[Alan Silver]

>The difference is that people can joke about the politicians,

but the politicians make a joke of the people.
That's cynical, but more accurate than any politician would care to
admit!!
Juan T. Llibre, ASP.NET MVP
ASP.NET FAQ : http://asp.net.do/faq/
ASPNETFAQ.COM : http://www.aspnetfaq.com/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"Alan Silver" <al*********@nospam.thanx> wrote in message
news:kF**************@nospamthankyou.spam...

Have you ever thought of going into politics? You're a natural!!

I suppose I could. Apparently, I'm a failure as a comedian.

I never really saw much difference between them!!

--
Alan Silver
(anything added below this line is nothing to do with me)

[Kevin Spencer]

> The difference is that people can joke about the politicians,

but the politicians make a joke of the people.
Very funny, Juan.

Still, the older I get, the more I realize that people only make jokes of
themselves.

--
;-),

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
If you push something hard enough,
it will fall over.
- Fudd's First Law of Opposition

"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:eO*************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl... The difference is that people can joke about the politicians,
but the politicians make a joke of the people.

Juan T. Llibre, ASP.NET MVP
ASP.NET FAQ : http://asp.net.do/faq/
ASPNETFAQ.COM : http://www.aspnetfaq.com/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"Alan Silver" <al*********@nospam.thanx> wrote in message
news:kF**************@nospamthankyou.spam...

Have you ever thought of going into politics? You're a natural!!

I suppose I could. Apparently, I'm a failure as a comedian.

I never really saw much difference between them!!