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Exam 70-305

P: n/a
Im going to be looking to do this exam fairly soon, but ive done a couple of
practice tests and found them to be a bit tricky in as much as you have to
REALLY READ the questions carefully else they trip you up.

When you have four multi choice and each one has 8 lines of code, its like
looking at those damn near identicle picture and spotting the difference.
Its almost as if they expect you to have an on line help in your head !!

How did others get on with it ?

Cheers Mr N

PS: Im going to hook up my positronic relay to a Sub Dermal Borg Neural
Node Interlink transmitter and connect to the billion tera quads of help
provided with VS2003, this should help. If not I'm going to re-route all
emergency power to my cebral cortex and blow my friggin head off!!!!

:))
Nov 19 '05 #1
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29 Replies


P: n/a
I thought the exam was extremly easy. I finished in about 25 minutes and got
a high score. personally, it soured me on the entire experience, much too
easy and focusing on the wrong things.

Anyways, best way to study is to take a lot of sample tests..

Karl

--
MY ASP.Net tutorials
http://www.openmymind.net/
http://openmymind.net/redirector.aspx?documentId=51 - Learn about AJAX!

"Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
news:uU*************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
Im going to be looking to do this exam fairly soon, but ive done a couple
of practice tests and found them to be a bit tricky in as much as you have
to REALLY READ the questions carefully else they trip you up.

When you have four multi choice and each one has 8 lines of code, its like
looking at those damn near identicle picture and spotting the difference.
Its almost as if they expect you to have an on line help in your head !!

How did others get on with it ?

Cheers Mr N

PS: Im going to hook up my positronic relay to a Sub Dermal Borg Neural
Node Interlink transmitter and connect to the billion tera quads of help
provided with VS2003, this should help. If not I'm going to re-route all
emergency power to my cebral cortex and blow my friggin head off!!!!

:))

Nov 19 '05 #2

P: n/a
I used the QUE book by Mike Gunderloy and the material from Trancenders. I
think the trancenders material was more tricky and harder than the real test
but worth the money. the Mike Gunderloy book was a great prep but more than
a prep - I still use it for reference because it touches on about
everything. My reaction to all that code was the same as yours and I
believe the practice tests taught me how to spot those differences quickly.

The prep experience and the test was very good for me because it forced me
to learn all areas where before I was really strong in about half of them.

--
Regards,
Gary Blakely
Dean Blakely & Associates
www.deanblakely.com

--
Regards,
Gary Blakely
Dean Blakely & Associates
www.deanblakely.com
"Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
news:uU*************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
Im going to be looking to do this exam fairly soon, but ive done a couple
of practice tests and found them to be a bit tricky in as much as you have
to REALLY READ the questions carefully else they trip you up.

When you have four multi choice and each one has 8 lines of code, its like
looking at those damn near identicle picture and spotting the difference.
Its almost as if they expect you to have an on line help in your head !!

How did others get on with it ?

Cheers Mr N

PS: Im going to hook up my positronic relay to a Sub Dermal Borg Neural
Node Interlink transmitter and connect to the billion tera quads of help
provided with VS2003, this should help. If not I'm going to re-route all
emergency power to my cebral cortex and blow my friggin head off!!!!

:))

Nov 19 '05 #3

P: n/a
"Karl Seguin" <karl REMOVE @ REMOVE openmymind REMOVEMETOO . ANDME net>
wrote in message news:uL**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
I thought the exam was extremly easy. I finished in about 25 minutes and
got a high score. personally, it soured me on the entire experience, much
too easy and focusing on the wrong things.


It's my personal opinion that MCPs are a total and utter waste of time and
money. They don't teach you how to be a better developer; just to remember a
load of pointless facts that you never need to remember in your day-to-day
work.

I've always equated them to driving lessons - they don't teach you how to be
a good driver; they just teach you how to pass your driving test.
Nov 19 '05 #4

P: n/a
As a guy with each of these certifications: MCSD, MCDBA, MCSA, MCSE (with
MCSD.NET just around the corner);
I can tell you firsthand that any of the certifications or exams won't make
you a better programmer or even provide much of an indication of what you
actually know. One unfortunate side effect of having these certs is that
they pretty much increase people's expectations unrealistically for what you
know and what you can do. There is an absolutely HUGE amount of material
potentially covered by all those tests and I honestly cannot tell you want a
passing grade really means. For example I got 100% on the COM section of one
of the MCSD tests and I can tell you I don't know much beyond the absolute
basics of COM. On the other hand I barely passed other exams and they never
asked me anything about a whole bunch of stuff that I knew that was
relevant. So one thing I've concluded is that one's score on these exams
measures - in large part - the exam's ability to measure what you DO in fact
know. A low score may mean that the test failed to measure your knowledge
adequately. A high score may mean the exact same thing! The upshot of this:
You might do well to have some clear understanding of what a passing score
means - and means just for you. Personally, I just look at it as a way to
get *some* idea of how well I have covered some of the fundamentals in some
area of inquiry (and even then, just on Microsoft products). If I can't even
pass one of these tests, then I better hit the books! But that doesn't mean
that passing the test gives me any sense of [elevated status] in the
industry - after all, it's hard to really know what a passing score means.
Bottom line is that you really need to roll up your sleeves and get some
good old fashioned experience before you can really consider yourself as
achieving any level of *expertise* - even then it's only limited to the
domain in which you have such experience; certification or no certification.

-HTH

-GH
"Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
news:uU*************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
Im going to be looking to do this exam fairly soon, but ive done a couple
of practice tests and found them to be a bit tricky in as much as you have
to REALLY READ the questions carefully else they trip you up.

When you have four multi choice and each one has 8 lines of code, its like
looking at those damn near identicle picture and spotting the difference.
Its almost as if they expect you to have an on line help in your head !!

How did others get on with it ?

Cheers Mr N

PS: Im going to hook up my positronic relay to a Sub Dermal Borg Neural
Node Interlink transmitter and connect to the billion tera quads of help
provided with VS2003, this should help. If not I'm going to re-route all
emergency power to my cebral cortex and blow my friggin head off!!!!

:))

Nov 19 '05 #5

P: n/a
My experience is that developers who say these test mean nothing are afraid
to take them or maybe not up to the effort to study for them. Just because
you pass the bar does not mean you are an excellent lawyer but it is
evidence that you are not some dumb shit.

T :)

"Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
news:uU*************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
Im going to be looking to do this exam fairly soon, but ive done a couple
of practice tests and found them to be a bit tricky in as much as you have
to REALLY READ the questions carefully else they trip you up.

When you have four multi choice and each one has 8 lines of code, its like
looking at those damn near identicle picture and spotting the difference.
Its almost as if they expect you to have an on line help in your head !!

How did others get on with it ?

Cheers Mr N

PS: Im going to hook up my positronic relay to a Sub Dermal Borg Neural
Node Interlink transmitter and connect to the billion tera quads of help
provided with VS2003, this should help. If not I'm going to re-route all
emergency power to my cebral cortex and blow my friggin head off!!!!

:))

Nov 19 '05 #6

P: n/a
Your post is confusing. I'm a developer who has passed 13 of these tests and
I'm sure you read my post explaining the lack of objective meaning... and
then you make your sweeping statement???

Also, please don't post profanity here. Unlike the SQL Programming NG and
others, this one is fairly civil. We'd like to keep it that way.

-GH

"Tina" <ti**********@nospammeexcite.com> wrote in message
news:ex**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
My experience is that developers who say these test mean nothing are
afraid to take them or maybe not up to the effort to study for them. Just
because you pass the bar does not mean you are an excellent lawyer but it
is evidence that you are not some dumb shit.

T :)

"Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
news:uU*************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
Im going to be looking to do this exam fairly soon, but ive done a couple
of practice tests and found them to be a bit tricky in as much as you
have to REALLY READ the questions carefully else they trip you up.

When you have four multi choice and each one has 8 lines of code, its
like looking at those damn near identicle picture and spotting the
difference. Its almost as if they expect you to have an on line help in
your head !!

How did others get on with it ?

Cheers Mr N

PS: Im going to hook up my positronic relay to a Sub Dermal Borg Neural
Node Interlink transmitter and connect to the billion tera quads of help
provided with VS2003, this should help. If not I'm going to re-route all
emergency power to my cebral cortex and blow my friggin head off!!!!

:))


Nov 19 '05 #7

P: n/a
For those interested, here is info on the next generation of Microsoft
certifications.

http://www.microsoft.com/learning/mcp/newgen/

With these new certifications - particularly the Microsoft Certified
Architect - the *meaning* of the credential will be much more clear than
those offered today. I guess MS saw a need to revamp things - perhaps to add
some additional validity to the whole certification process.

-FWIW

"Guadala Harry" <GM**@BeansAndTacos.org> wrote in message
news:uc**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
As a guy with each of these certifications: MCSD, MCDBA, MCSA, MCSE (with
MCSD.NET just around the corner);
I can tell you firsthand that any of the certifications or exams won't
make you a better programmer or even provide much of an indication of what
you actually know. One unfortunate side effect of having these certs is
that they pretty much increase people's expectations unrealistically for
what you know and what you can do. There is an absolutely HUGE amount of
material potentially covered by all those tests and I honestly cannot tell
you want a passing grade really means. For example I got 100% on the COM
section of one of the MCSD tests and I can tell you I don't know much
beyond the absolute basics of COM. On the other hand I barely passed other
exams and they never asked me anything about a whole bunch of stuff that I
knew that was relevant. So one thing I've concluded is that one's score on
these exams measures - in large part - the exam's ability to measure what
you DO in fact know. A low score may mean that the test failed to measure
your knowledge adequately. A high score may mean the exact same thing! The
upshot of this: You might do well to have some clear understanding of what
a passing score means - and means just for you. Personally, I just look at
it as a way to get *some* idea of how well I have covered some of the
fundamentals in some area of inquiry (and even then, just on Microsoft
products). If I can't even pass one of these tests, then I better hit the
books! But that doesn't mean that passing the test gives me any sense of
[elevated status] in the industry - after all, it's hard to really know
what a passing score means. Bottom line is that you really need to roll up
your sleeves and get some good old fashioned experience before you can
really consider yourself as achieving any level of *expertise* - even then
it's only limited to the domain in which you have such experience;
certification or no certification.

-HTH

-GH
"Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
news:uU*************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
Im going to be looking to do this exam fairly soon, but ive done a couple
of practice tests and found them to be a bit tricky in as much as you
have to REALLY READ the questions carefully else they trip you up.

When you have four multi choice and each one has 8 lines of code, its
like looking at those damn near identicle picture and spotting the
difference. Its almost as if they expect you to have an on line help in
your head !!

How did others get on with it ?

Cheers Mr N

PS: Im going to hook up my positronic relay to a Sub Dermal Borg Neural
Node Interlink transmitter and connect to the billion tera quads of help
provided with VS2003, this should help. If not I'm going to re-route all
emergency power to my cebral cortex and blow my friggin head off!!!!

:))


Nov 19 '05 #8

P: n/a
I think that not withstanding the colourfull language used, she has a point
!

For someone who has had no real experience with the technology it would be
impossible to pass the exam cold. Therefore to at least work through the MS
or other preperation material has merit in terms of study time applied and
the will and focus to actually schedule and realize the exam iteself.

Therfore I beleive in the merit of this process, however I take your points
regarding the potential for the results to skew the underlying aptitude.

For someone who already knows the technology, of course the exams would
probably be fairly mechanical, especially for someone like yourself who is
obviously an experienced person in this field.

I hope that I do make the grade and go on to better things. I view it as a
stepping stone.

And thanks for all the replies to my post.

Thanks Again .. Mr Newbie
"Guadala Harry" <GM**@BeansAndTacos.org> wrote in message
news:Oz**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
Your post is confusing. I'm a developer who has passed 13 of these tests
and I'm sure you read my post explaining the lack of objective meaning...
and then you make your sweeping statement???

Also, please don't post profanity here. Unlike the SQL Programming NG and
others, this one is fairly civil. We'd like to keep it that way.

-GH

"Tina" <ti**********@nospammeexcite.com> wrote in message
news:ex**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
My experience is that developers who say these test mean nothing are
afraid to take them or maybe not up to the effort to study for them.
Just because you pass the bar does not mean you are an excellent lawyer
but it is evidence that you are not some dumb shit.

T :)

"Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
news:uU*************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
Im going to be looking to do this exam fairly soon, but ive done a
couple of practice tests and found them to be a bit tricky in as much as
you have to REALLY READ the questions carefully else they trip you up.

When you have four multi choice and each one has 8 lines of code, its
like looking at those damn near identicle picture and spotting the
difference. Its almost as if they expect you to have an on line help in
your head !!

How did others get on with it ?

Cheers Mr N

PS: Im going to hook up my positronic relay to a Sub Dermal Borg Neural
Node Interlink transmitter and connect to the billion tera quads of help
provided with VS2003, this should help. If not I'm going to re-route all
emergency power to my cebral cortex and blow my friggin head off!!!!

:))



Nov 19 '05 #9

P: n/a
Until now at least, the certification process has been meaningless. The
development world is hideously complex, and even knowing the answers to all
of the questions in an exam doesn't prepare one for the experience of
real-world development. Only the experience itself does. In other words,
using a carpenter as an analogy, there is a difference between knowing what
all of one's tools are, how they work, what they are used for, and how to
read a blueprint, and knowing how to build houses.

All development projects are different, and present different and unique
challenges to the developer. In my experiences, Murphy is a constant
companion. I am constantly barraged by new situations, requirements that
exceed my skill set, problems I have never encountered before, and I've been
programming for a dozen years.

A certification exam can measure certain things, and is useful for measuring
those things, and those things only. Among the most critical skills required
by any developer are problem-solving skill, logic, creative thinking, anal
attention to detail, a measure of healthy paranoia, and dogged persistence.
Until now, I have not seen certification exams which are able to measure
most of these things. I have not seen certification exams which do measure
the ones which can be measured (such as problem-solving and logic).

It is not very important to know a lot. After all, "a lot" is a non-specific
quantity. Without a frame of reference, it is meaningless. It is
*critically* important to be able to find out a lot, and to be able to do so
quickly. I'd love to see an exam which involved playing "20 questions." THAT
would be a good measurement criteria!

The best developers I have known and worked with most often had little or no
formal training, and either had not taken any certification exams, or had
taken them as a requirement of their job, and for no other reason.
Programming is a high-salary job. Many people are going to want to make the
kind of money that can be made doing it. Among them, only a select few are
"born programmers" or have the self-discipline and persistence to acquire
these skills and qualities.

Most people don't realize it, but it requires less work over a lifetime to
become a Doctor. While there is a period of some years during which an
aspiring Doctor has to work his/her proverbial butt off, after that, it is
fairly easy to keep up with the advances in the trade. Most Doctors are
specialists of one sort or another, and only need to keep up with a limited
set of knowledge. They have nurses and other lower-paid medical technicians
to do most of their work for them. And the human body isn't re-designed
every 5 or 10 years.

As for me, and others like me (you know who you are), I spend as much time
studying as I do developing. And I feel like I can never manage to keep up,
even though I do, by comparison, overall. Fortunately for me, I love to
learn. I love a challenge. I can endure almost any stress except for
boredom. Math, Logic, and Science are the greatest loves of my life, with
the (possible) exception of my wife. ;-)

But how many people who aspire to make the big bucks have similar traits?
Many aspiring developers are people who saw an ad for "Some Technical
Institute" on tv, and bought into the hype. They are in it for the money.
There are as many hack developers out there as there are hack car mechanics,
hack politicians, and hack lawyers. Some of these are very good at passing
certification exams.

I have never taken one. Why?

1. I have never needed to. I have always acquired work by virtue of my
accomplishments (A good portfolio is worth a thousand certificates).
2. I have never been required to by a job that I've held.
3. I have been too busy studying and performing to take the time for an
exam.
4. Taking the above into consideration, I have never wanted to take one "for
fun." Taking an exam is not my idea of fun. The real exam is my everyday
life.

Anyway, that's my story and I'm stickin' with it!

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
A watched clock never boils.

"Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
news:e2**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
I think that not withstanding the colourfull language used, she has a point
!

For someone who has had no real experience with the technology it would be
impossible to pass the exam cold. Therefore to at least work through the
MS or other preperation material has merit in terms of study time applied
and the will and focus to actually schedule and realize the exam iteself.

Therfore I beleive in the merit of this process, however I take your
points regarding the potential for the results to skew the underlying
aptitude.

For someone who already knows the technology, of course the exams would
probably be fairly mechanical, especially for someone like yourself who is
obviously an experienced person in this field.

I hope that I do make the grade and go on to better things. I view it as a
stepping stone.

And thanks for all the replies to my post.

Thanks Again .. Mr Newbie
"Guadala Harry" <GM**@BeansAndTacos.org> wrote in message
news:Oz**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
Your post is confusing. I'm a developer who has passed 13 of these tests
and I'm sure you read my post explaining the lack of objective meaning...
and then you make your sweeping statement???

Also, please don't post profanity here. Unlike the SQL Programming NG and
others, this one is fairly civil. We'd like to keep it that way.

-GH

"Tina" <ti**********@nospammeexcite.com> wrote in message
news:ex**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
My experience is that developers who say these test mean nothing are
afraid to take them or maybe not up to the effort to study for them.
Just because you pass the bar does not mean you are an excellent lawyer
but it is evidence that you are not some dumb shit.

T :)

"Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
news:uU*************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
Im going to be looking to do this exam fairly soon, but ive done a
couple of practice tests and found them to be a bit tricky in as much
as you have to REALLY READ the questions carefully else they trip you
up.

When you have four multi choice and each one has 8 lines of code, its
like looking at those damn near identicle picture and spotting the
difference. Its almost as if they expect you to have an on line help in
your head !!

How did others get on with it ?

Cheers Mr N

PS: Im going to hook up my positronic relay to a Sub Dermal Borg
Neural Node Interlink transmitter and connect to the billion tera quads
of help provided with VS2003, this should help. If not I'm going to
re-route all emergency power to my cebral cortex and blow my friggin
head off!!!!

:))



Nov 19 '05 #10

P: n/a
Your rhetoric is exhaustive; you must feel passionate about the subject.
Whilst I see the intellectual merit of some of your points, your argument
completely fails to address my point.

To say that the Microsoft Certification Process is 'meaningless' is simply
'Incorrect'

The fact that one 'strives' to pass an exam by using study preparations by
definition means that one must 'learn' or assures ones learning during the
course of such preparation. The only exception would be when one has already
achieved such knowledge prior to the exam by other means, in which case the
only reason to have taken it would have either been to prove to a third
party or oneself that one has achieved this badge of merit.

I have never said that the exam certificate is a predicate to being thought
of as professional or to be seen as able in the science of producing well
written software, but nevertheless, one cannot be harmed from having gone
through the process.

I propose that it is better to have achieved the certificates than not, and
whilst you personally may be more proficient than those who have them, I
think to look down on those who have run the gauntlet of the challenge,
would be rather snobbish to say the least and down right arrogant to say the
most.

I'm pleased that you feel able to wear colours which demonstrate your wit,
courage, determination and heroism earned in fighting the bloody, savage and
brutalistic struggles seen in countless project battlegrounds in the IT
Amphitheatre.

Have a thought for those lesser mortals who are so much less able than
yourself, and who aspire to your elevated position, but don't have twelve
years or so to spend on the gut wrenching ardours of coding skirmishes to be
considered worthy to wear your colours, and have to simply settle at this
point for going through Microsoft's own certification system.
HTH


"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
Until now at least, the certification process has been meaningless. The
development world is hideously complex, and even knowing the answers to
all of the questions in an exam doesn't prepare one for the experience of
real-world development. Only the experience itself does. In other words,
using a carpenter as an analogy, there is a difference between knowing
what all of one's tools are, how they work, what they are used for, and
how to read a blueprint, and knowing how to build houses.

All development projects are different, and present different and unique
challenges to the developer. In my experiences, Murphy is a constant
companion. I am constantly barraged by new situations, requirements that
exceed my skill set, problems I have never encountered before, and I've
been programming for a dozen years.

A certification exam can measure certain things, and is useful for
measuring those things, and those things only. Among the most critical
skills required by any developer are problem-solving skill, logic,
creative thinking, anal attention to detail, a measure of healthy
paranoia, and dogged persistence. Until now, I have not seen certification
exams which are able to measure most of these things. I have not seen
certification exams which do measure the ones which can be measured (such
as problem-solving and logic).

It is not very important to know a lot. After all, "a lot" is a
non-specific quantity. Without a frame of reference, it is meaningless. It
is *critically* important to be able to find out a lot, and to be able to
do so quickly. I'd love to see an exam which involved playing "20
questions." THAT would be a good measurement criteria!

The best developers I have known and worked with most often had little or
no formal training, and either had not taken any certification exams, or
had taken them as a requirement of their job, and for no other reason.
Programming is a high-salary job. Many people are going to want to make
the kind of money that can be made doing it. Among them, only a select few
are "born programmers" or have the self-discipline and persistence to
acquire these skills and qualities.

Most people don't realize it, but it requires less work over a lifetime to
become a Doctor. While there is a period of some years during which an
aspiring Doctor has to work his/her proverbial butt off, after that, it is
fairly easy to keep up with the advances in the trade. Most Doctors are
specialists of one sort or another, and only need to keep up with a
limited set of knowledge. They have nurses and other lower-paid medical
technicians to do most of their work for them. And the human body isn't
re-designed every 5 or 10 years.

As for me, and others like me (you know who you are), I spend as much time
studying as I do developing. And I feel like I can never manage to keep
up, even though I do, by comparison, overall. Fortunately for me, I love
to learn. I love a challenge. I can endure almost any stress except for
boredom. Math, Logic, and Science are the greatest loves of my life, with
the (possible) exception of my wife. ;-)

But how many people who aspire to make the big bucks have similar traits?
Many aspiring developers are people who saw an ad for "Some Technical
Institute" on tv, and bought into the hype. They are in it for the money.
There are as many hack developers out there as there are hack car
mechanics, hack politicians, and hack lawyers. Some of these are very good
at passing certification exams.

I have never taken one. Why?

1. I have never needed to. I have always acquired work by virtue of my
accomplishments (A good portfolio is worth a thousand certificates).
2. I have never been required to by a job that I've held.
3. I have been too busy studying and performing to take the time for an
exam.
4. Taking the above into consideration, I have never wanted to take one
"for fun." Taking an exam is not my idea of fun. The real exam is my
everyday life.

Anyway, that's my story and I'm stickin' with it!

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
A watched clock never boils.

"Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
news:e2**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
I think that not withstanding the colourfull language used, she has a
point !

For someone who has had no real experience with the technology it would
be impossible to pass the exam cold. Therefore to at least work through
the MS or other preperation material has merit in terms of study time
applied and the will and focus to actually schedule and realize the exam
iteself.

Therfore I beleive in the merit of this process, however I take your
points regarding the potential for the results to skew the underlying
aptitude.

For someone who already knows the technology, of course the exams would
probably be fairly mechanical, especially for someone like yourself who
is obviously an experienced person in this field.

I hope that I do make the grade and go on to better things. I view it as
a stepping stone.

And thanks for all the replies to my post.

Thanks Again .. Mr Newbie
"Guadala Harry" <GM**@BeansAndTacos.org> wrote in message
news:Oz**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
Your post is confusing. I'm a developer who has passed 13 of these tests
and I'm sure you read my post explaining the lack of objective
meaning... and then you make your sweeping statement???

Also, please don't post profanity here. Unlike the SQL Programming NG
and others, this one is fairly civil. We'd like to keep it that way.

-GH

"Tina" <ti**********@nospammeexcite.com> wrote in message
news:ex**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
My experience is that developers who say these test mean nothing are
afraid to take them or maybe not up to the effort to study for them.
Just because you pass the bar does not mean you are an excellent lawyer
but it is evidence that you are not some dumb shit.

T :)

"Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
news:uU*************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> Im going to be looking to do this exam fairly soon, but ive done a
> couple of practice tests and found them to be a bit tricky in as much
> as you have to REALLY READ the questions carefully else they trip you
> up.
>
> When you have four multi choice and each one has 8 lines of code, its
> like looking at those damn near identicle picture and spotting the
> difference. Its almost as if they expect you to have an on line help
> in your head !!
>
> How did others get on with it ?
>
> Cheers Mr N
>
> PS: Im going to hook up my positronic relay to a Sub Dermal Borg
> Neural Node Interlink transmitter and connect to the billion tera
> quads of help provided with VS2003, this should help. If not I'm going
> to re-route all emergency power to my cebral cortex and blow my
> friggin head off!!!!
>
> :))
>



Nov 19 '05 #11

P: n/a
I've passed a few of these tests. I'd be happy to correspond offline with
you on this... as this thread is quickly becoming a "religious debate". Send
to jeffREMOVE_THIS330cia@yahooDOTcom if interested.

-F
"Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
news:Oi**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
Your rhetoric is exhaustive; you must feel passionate about the subject.
Whilst I see the intellectual merit of some of your points, your argument
completely fails to address my point.

To say that the Microsoft Certification Process is 'meaningless' is simply
'Incorrect'

The fact that one 'strives' to pass an exam by using study preparations by
definition means that one must 'learn' or assures ones learning during the
course of such preparation. The only exception would be when one has
already achieved such knowledge prior to the exam by other means, in which
case the only reason to have taken it would have either been to prove to a
third party or oneself that one has achieved this badge of merit.

I have never said that the exam certificate is a predicate to being
thought of as professional or to be seen as able in the science of
producing well written software, but nevertheless, one cannot be harmed
from having gone through the process.

I propose that it is better to have achieved the certificates than not,
and whilst you personally may be more proficient than those who have them,
I think to look down on those who have run the gauntlet of the challenge,
would be rather snobbish to say the least and down right arrogant to say
the most.

I'm pleased that you feel able to wear colours which demonstrate your wit,
courage, determination and heroism earned in fighting the bloody, savage
and brutalistic struggles seen in countless project battlegrounds in the
IT Amphitheatre.

Have a thought for those lesser mortals who are so much less able than
yourself, and who aspire to your elevated position, but don't have twelve
years or so to spend on the gut wrenching ardours of coding skirmishes to
be considered worthy to wear your colours, and have to simply settle at
this point for going through Microsoft's own certification system.
HTH


"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
Until now at least, the certification process has been meaningless. The
development world is hideously complex, and even knowing the answers to
all of the questions in an exam doesn't prepare one for the experience of
real-world development. Only the experience itself does. In other words,
using a carpenter as an analogy, there is a difference between knowing
what all of one's tools are, how they work, what they are used for, and
how to read a blueprint, and knowing how to build houses.

All development projects are different, and present different and unique
challenges to the developer. In my experiences, Murphy is a constant
companion. I am constantly barraged by new situations, requirements that
exceed my skill set, problems I have never encountered before, and I've
been programming for a dozen years.

A certification exam can measure certain things, and is useful for
measuring those things, and those things only. Among the most critical
skills required by any developer are problem-solving skill, logic,
creative thinking, anal attention to detail, a measure of healthy
paranoia, and dogged persistence. Until now, I have not seen
certification exams which are able to measure most of these things. I
have not seen certification exams which do measure the ones which can be
measured (such as problem-solving and logic).

It is not very important to know a lot. After all, "a lot" is a
non-specific quantity. Without a frame of reference, it is meaningless.
It is *critically* important to be able to find out a lot, and to be able
to do so quickly. I'd love to see an exam which involved playing "20
questions." THAT would be a good measurement criteria!

The best developers I have known and worked with most often had little or
no formal training, and either had not taken any certification exams, or
had taken them as a requirement of their job, and for no other reason.
Programming is a high-salary job. Many people are going to want to make
the kind of money that can be made doing it. Among them, only a select
few are "born programmers" or have the self-discipline and persistence to
acquire these skills and qualities.

Most people don't realize it, but it requires less work over a lifetime
to become a Doctor. While there is a period of some years during which an
aspiring Doctor has to work his/her proverbial butt off, after that, it
is fairly easy to keep up with the advances in the trade. Most Doctors
are specialists of one sort or another, and only need to keep up with a
limited set of knowledge. They have nurses and other lower-paid medical
technicians to do most of their work for them. And the human body isn't
re-designed every 5 or 10 years.

As for me, and others like me (you know who you are), I spend as much
time studying as I do developing. And I feel like I can never manage to
keep up, even though I do, by comparison, overall. Fortunately for me, I
love to learn. I love a challenge. I can endure almost any stress except
for boredom. Math, Logic, and Science are the greatest loves of my life,
with the (possible) exception of my wife. ;-)

But how many people who aspire to make the big bucks have similar traits?
Many aspiring developers are people who saw an ad for "Some Technical
Institute" on tv, and bought into the hype. They are in it for the money.
There are as many hack developers out there as there are hack car
mechanics, hack politicians, and hack lawyers. Some of these are very
good at passing certification exams.

I have never taken one. Why?

1. I have never needed to. I have always acquired work by virtue of my
accomplishments (A good portfolio is worth a thousand certificates).
2. I have never been required to by a job that I've held.
3. I have been too busy studying and performing to take the time for an
exam.
4. Taking the above into consideration, I have never wanted to take one
"for fun." Taking an exam is not my idea of fun. The real exam is my
everyday life.

Anyway, that's my story and I'm stickin' with it!

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
A watched clock never boils.

"Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
news:e2**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
I think that not withstanding the colourfull language used, she has a
point !

For someone who has had no real experience with the technology it would
be impossible to pass the exam cold. Therefore to at least work through
the MS or other preperation material has merit in terms of study time
applied and the will and focus to actually schedule and realize the exam
iteself.

Therfore I beleive in the merit of this process, however I take your
points regarding the potential for the results to skew the underlying
aptitude.

For someone who already knows the technology, of course the exams would
probably be fairly mechanical, especially for someone like yourself who
is obviously an experienced person in this field.

I hope that I do make the grade and go on to better things. I view it as
a stepping stone.

And thanks for all the replies to my post.

Thanks Again .. Mr Newbie
"Guadala Harry" <GM**@BeansAndTacos.org> wrote in message
news:Oz**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
Your post is confusing. I'm a developer who has passed 13 of these
tests and I'm sure you read my post explaining the lack of objective
meaning... and then you make your sweeping statement???

Also, please don't post profanity here. Unlike the SQL Programming NG
and others, this one is fairly civil. We'd like to keep it that way.

-GH

"Tina" <ti**********@nospammeexcite.com> wrote in message
news:ex**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> My experience is that developers who say these test mean nothing are
> afraid to take them or maybe not up to the effort to study for them.
> Just because you pass the bar does not mean you are an excellent
> lawyer but it is evidence that you are not some dumb shit.
>
> T :)
>
> "Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
> news:uU*************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>> Im going to be looking to do this exam fairly soon, but ive done a
>> couple of practice tests and found them to be a bit tricky in as much
>> as you have to REALLY READ the questions carefully else they trip you
>> up.
>>
>> When you have four multi choice and each one has 8 lines of code, its
>> like looking at those damn near identicle picture and spotting the
>> difference. Its almost as if they expect you to have an on line help
>> in your head !!
>>
>> How did others get on with it ?
>>
>> Cheers Mr N
>>
>> PS: Im going to hook up my positronic relay to a Sub Dermal Borg
>> Neural Node Interlink transmitter and connect to the billion tera
>> quads of help provided with VS2003, this should help. If not I'm
>> going to re-route all emergency power to my cebral cortex and blow my
>> friggin head off!!!!
>>
>> :))
>>
>
>



Nov 19 '05 #12

P: n/a
Thanks for the reply Frankie ( Jeff ). I think I will be ok, but perhaps you
could reply to my post earlier today regarding Web User Controls as no one
has given me a reply so far.

Regards - Mr N

"Frankie" <A@B.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
I've passed a few of these tests. I'd be happy to correspond offline with
you on this... as this thread is quickly becoming a "religious debate".
Send to jeffREMOVE_THIS330cia@yahooDOTcom if interested.

-F
"Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
news:Oi**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
Your rhetoric is exhaustive; you must feel passionate about the subject.
Whilst I see the intellectual merit of some of your points, your argument
completely fails to address my point.

To say that the Microsoft Certification Process is 'meaningless' is
simply 'Incorrect'

The fact that one 'strives' to pass an exam by using study preparations
by definition means that one must 'learn' or assures ones learning during
the course of such preparation. The only exception would be when one has
already achieved such knowledge prior to the exam by other means, in
which case the only reason to have taken it would have either been to
prove to a third party or oneself that one has achieved this badge of
merit.

I have never said that the exam certificate is a predicate to being
thought of as professional or to be seen as able in the science of
producing well written software, but nevertheless, one cannot be harmed
from having gone through the process.

I propose that it is better to have achieved the certificates than not,
and whilst you personally may be more proficient than those who have
them, I think to look down on those who have run the gauntlet of the
challenge, would be rather snobbish to say the least and down right
arrogant to say the most.

I'm pleased that you feel able to wear colours which demonstrate your
wit, courage, determination and heroism earned in fighting the bloody,
savage and brutalistic struggles seen in countless project battlegrounds
in the IT Amphitheatre.

Have a thought for those lesser mortals who are so much less able than
yourself, and who aspire to your elevated position, but don't have twelve
years or so to spend on the gut wrenching ardours of coding skirmishes to
be considered worthy to wear your colours, and have to simply settle at
this point for going through Microsoft's own certification system.
HTH


"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
Until now at least, the certification process has been meaningless. The
development world is hideously complex, and even knowing the answers to
all of the questions in an exam doesn't prepare one for the experience
of real-world development. Only the experience itself does. In other
words, using a carpenter as an analogy, there is a difference between
knowing what all of one's tools are, how they work, what they are used
for, and how to read a blueprint, and knowing how to build houses.

All development projects are different, and present different and unique
challenges to the developer. In my experiences, Murphy is a constant
companion. I am constantly barraged by new situations, requirements that
exceed my skill set, problems I have never encountered before, and I've
been programming for a dozen years.

A certification exam can measure certain things, and is useful for
measuring those things, and those things only. Among the most critical
skills required by any developer are problem-solving skill, logic,
creative thinking, anal attention to detail, a measure of healthy
paranoia, and dogged persistence. Until now, I have not seen
certification exams which are able to measure most of these things. I
have not seen certification exams which do measure the ones which can be
measured (such as problem-solving and logic).

It is not very important to know a lot. After all, "a lot" is a
non-specific quantity. Without a frame of reference, it is meaningless.
It is *critically* important to be able to find out a lot, and to be
able to do so quickly. I'd love to see an exam which involved playing
"20 questions." THAT would be a good measurement criteria!

The best developers I have known and worked with most often had little
or no formal training, and either had not taken any certification exams,
or had taken them as a requirement of their job, and for no other
reason. Programming is a high-salary job. Many people are going to want
to make the kind of money that can be made doing it. Among them, only a
select few are "born programmers" or have the self-discipline and
persistence to acquire these skills and qualities.

Most people don't realize it, but it requires less work over a lifetime
to become a Doctor. While there is a period of some years during which
an aspiring Doctor has to work his/her proverbial butt off, after that,
it is fairly easy to keep up with the advances in the trade. Most
Doctors are specialists of one sort or another, and only need to keep up
with a limited set of knowledge. They have nurses and other lower-paid
medical technicians to do most of their work for them. And the human
body isn't re-designed every 5 or 10 years.

As for me, and others like me (you know who you are), I spend as much
time studying as I do developing. And I feel like I can never manage to
keep up, even though I do, by comparison, overall. Fortunately for me, I
love to learn. I love a challenge. I can endure almost any stress except
for boredom. Math, Logic, and Science are the greatest loves of my life,
with the (possible) exception of my wife. ;-)

But how many people who aspire to make the big bucks have similar
traits? Many aspiring developers are people who saw an ad for "Some
Technical Institute" on tv, and bought into the hype. They are in it for
the money. There are as many hack developers out there as there are hack
car mechanics, hack politicians, and hack lawyers. Some of these are
very good at passing certification exams.

I have never taken one. Why?

1. I have never needed to. I have always acquired work by virtue of my
accomplishments (A good portfolio is worth a thousand certificates).
2. I have never been required to by a job that I've held.
3. I have been too busy studying and performing to take the time for an
exam.
4. Taking the above into consideration, I have never wanted to take one
"for fun." Taking an exam is not my idea of fun. The real exam is my
everyday life.

Anyway, that's my story and I'm stickin' with it!

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
A watched clock never boils.

"Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
news:e2**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
I think that not withstanding the colourfull language used, she has a
point !

For someone who has had no real experience with the technology it would
be impossible to pass the exam cold. Therefore to at least work through
the MS or other preperation material has merit in terms of study time
applied and the will and focus to actually schedule and realize the
exam iteself.

Therfore I beleive in the merit of this process, however I take your
points regarding the potential for the results to skew the underlying
aptitude.

For someone who already knows the technology, of course the exams would
probably be fairly mechanical, especially for someone like yourself who
is obviously an experienced person in this field.

I hope that I do make the grade and go on to better things. I view it
as a stepping stone.

And thanks for all the replies to my post.

Thanks Again .. Mr Newbie
"Guadala Harry" <GM**@BeansAndTacos.org> wrote in message
news:Oz**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> Your post is confusing. I'm a developer who has passed 13 of these
> tests and I'm sure you read my post explaining the lack of objective
> meaning... and then you make your sweeping statement???
>
> Also, please don't post profanity here. Unlike the SQL Programming NG
> and others, this one is fairly civil. We'd like to keep it that way.
>
> -GH
>
> "Tina" <ti**********@nospammeexcite.com> wrote in message
> news:ex**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>> My experience is that developers who say these test mean nothing are
>> afraid to take them or maybe not up to the effort to study for them.
>> Just because you pass the bar does not mean you are an excellent
>> lawyer but it is evidence that you are not some dumb shit.
>>
>> T :)
>>
>> "Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
>> news:uU*************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>>> Im going to be looking to do this exam fairly soon, but ive done a
>>> couple of practice tests and found them to be a bit tricky in as
>>> much as you have to REALLY READ the questions carefully else they
>>> trip you up.
>>>
>>> When you have four multi choice and each one has 8 lines of code,
>>> its like looking at those damn near identicle picture and spotting
>>> the difference. Its almost as if they expect you to have an on line
>>> help in your head !!
>>>
>>> How did others get on with it ?
>>>
>>> Cheers Mr N
>>>
>>> PS: Im going to hook up my positronic relay to a Sub Dermal Borg
>>> Neural Node Interlink transmitter and connect to the billion tera
>>> quads of help provided with VS2003, this should help. If not I'm
>>> going to re-route all emergency power to my cebral cortex and blow
>>> my friggin head off!!!!
>>>
>>> :))
>>>
>>
>>
>
>



Nov 19 '05 #13

P: n/a
"Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
news:Oi**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
To say that the Microsoft Certification Process is 'meaningless' is simply
'Incorrect'
I disagree. You dub yourself "Mr Newbie" - perhaps when you have a few
years' real-world experience under your belt, you will come to understand
just how meaningless these pointless pieces of paper are...
The fact that one 'strives' to pass an exam by using study preparations by
definition means that one must 'learn' or assures ones learning during the
course of such preparation.
That simply isn't the case. In order to pass any MCP, you need to retain a
certain amount of information for no longer than the duration of the exam,
after which you will never need to remember it again, and will very quickly
forget it. Or, perhaps to qualify that statement a little, you will forget
the actual minutiae but will remember where to find it.
The only exception would be when one has already achieved such knowledge
prior to the exam by other means, in which case the only reason to have
taken it would have either been to prove to a third party or oneself that
one has achieved this badge of merit.
Again, the only people to whom you will be able to prove this are those who
have little understanding of what MCPs are. It's tantamount to trying to get
the post of Head of School of Business Studies at the London School of
Economics armed with no more than an MBa you'd bought off the Internet (they
exist...). If the person interviewing you is sufficiently uninformed about
the worth of your "qualification", then more fool them, and good luck to
you!
I have never said that the exam certificate is a predicate to being
thought of as professional or to be seen as able in the science of
producing well written software,
So why waste your time with it?
but nevertheless, one cannot be harmed from having gone through the
process.
On the contrary - I've sat in on more than one technical interview where the
interviewee was aked why he'd wasted his time and money on MCPs...
I propose that it is better to have achieved the certificates than not,
and whilst you personally may be more proficient than those who have them,
I think to look down on those who have run the gauntlet of the challenge,
would be rather snobbish to say the least and down right arrogant to say
the most.
Making a non-IT analogy, David Blaine (the so-called magician) was able to
stand atop a tall pillar in America for a few days without falling off and
killing himself, and was able (if he is to be believed) to subsist on
nothing more than water for several weeks in a glass box suspended above the
Thames. Both feats are doubtless incredibly impressive to those who are
impressed by such things - alternatively, what a total and utter waste of
time!
Have a thought for those lesser mortals who are so much less able than
yourself, and who aspire to your elevated position, but don't have twelve
years or so to spend on the gut wrenching ardours of coding skirmishes to
be considered worthy to wear your colours, and have to simply settle at
this point for going through Microsoft's own certification system.


Alternatively, why not redirect the efforts you will expend in revising for
your MCP into actually learning to be a developer...?
Nov 19 '05 #14

P: n/a
re:
You dub yourself "Mr Newbie" - perhaps when you have a few years' real-world experience
under your belt
I don't think that "Mr. Newbie" is as much of
a "newbie" as his self-chosen name would indicate.

He seems to have quite a bit of programming experience.


Juan T. Llibre, ASP.NET MVP
ASP.NET FAQ : http://asp.net.do/faq/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"Mark Rae" <ma**@mark-N-O-S-P-A-M-rae.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ur**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl... "Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
news:Oi**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
To say that the Microsoft Certification Process is 'meaningless' is simply 'Incorrect'


I disagree. You dub yourself "Mr Newbie" - perhaps when you have a few years' real-world
experience under your belt, you will come to understand just how meaningless these
pointless pieces of paper are...
The fact that one 'strives' to pass an exam by using study preparations by definition
means that one must 'learn' or assures ones learning during the course of such
preparation.


That simply isn't the case. In order to pass any MCP, you need to retain a certain
amount of information for no longer than the duration of the exam, after which you will
never need to remember it again, and will very quickly forget it. Or, perhaps to qualify
that statement a little, you will forget the actual minutiae but will remember where to
find it.
The only exception would be when one has already achieved such knowledge prior to the
exam by other means, in which case the only reason to have taken it would have either
been to prove to a third party or oneself that one has achieved this badge of merit.


Again, the only people to whom you will be able to prove this are those who have little
understanding of what MCPs are. It's tantamount to trying to get the post of Head of
School of Business Studies at the London School of Economics armed with no more than an
MBa you'd bought off the Internet (they exist...). If the person interviewing you is
sufficiently uninformed about the worth of your "qualification", then more fool them,
and good luck to you!
I have never said that the exam certificate is a predicate to being thought of as
professional or to be seen as able in the science of producing well written software,


So why waste your time with it?
but nevertheless, one cannot be harmed from having gone through the process.


On the contrary - I've sat in on more than one technical interview where the interviewee
was aked why he'd wasted his time and money on MCPs...
I propose that it is better to have achieved the certificates than not, and whilst you
personally may be more proficient than those who have them, I think to look down on
those who have run the gauntlet of the challenge, would be rather snobbish to say the
least and down right arrogant to say the most.


Making a non-IT analogy, David Blaine (the so-called magician) was able to stand atop a
tall pillar in America for a few days without falling off and killing himself, and was
able (if he is to be believed) to subsist on nothing more than water for several weeks
in a glass box suspended above the Thames. Both feats are doubtless incredibly
impressive to those who are impressed by such things - alternatively, what a total and
utter waste of time!
Have a thought for those lesser mortals who are so much less able than yourself, and
who aspire to your elevated position, but don't have twelve years or so to spend on the
gut wrenching ardours of coding skirmishes to be considered worthy to wear your
colours, and have to simply settle at this point for going through Microsoft's own
certification system.


Alternatively, why not redirect the efforts you will expend in revising for your MCP
into actually learning to be a developer...?

Nov 19 '05 #15

P: n/a
"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:eg**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
I don't think that "Mr. Newbie" is as much of
a "newbie" as his self-chosen name would indicate.

He seems to have quite a bit of programming experience.


Wonder why on earth he's wasting his time with MCPs...???
Nov 19 '05 #16

P: n/a
:)

It is fascinating that neither you, nor Mr Spencer seems to have grasped the
fundamentals of my assertion.

My point was simply, that the process of preparation is in itself is a
learning exercise regardless of if you consider the certificate has merit or
not. Some people don't think the way you and Mr Spencer appear to think,
and do have an opinion which differs from your good selves, and for them
this certificate has some value.

If this is true, then the certificate HAS value, and so does the process.

I do not claim there is no better way to test someone's ability, nor do I
assert that there is not a better learning process. Only that this is a
learning process, and does have value to some people.

You do not have to subscribe to my views and it is of little importance to
me whether you do, or do not. I personally see a value in it, so I will
continue to align myself with the process.

Have fun and enjoy your anger, at least then it will serve some constructive
function.
Regards Mr Newbie. . .


"Mark Rae" <ma**@mark-N-O-S-P-A-M-rae.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ur**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
"Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
news:Oi**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
To say that the Microsoft Certification Process is 'meaningless' is
simply 'Incorrect'


I disagree. You dub yourself "Mr Newbie" - perhaps when you have a few
years' real-world experience under your belt, you will come to understand
just how meaningless these pointless pieces of paper are...
The fact that one 'strives' to pass an exam by using study preparations
by definition means that one must 'learn' or assures ones learning during
the course of such preparation.


That simply isn't the case. In order to pass any MCP, you need to retain a
certain amount of information for no longer than the duration of the exam,
after which you will never need to remember it again, and will very
quickly forget it. Or, perhaps to qualify that statement a little, you
will forget the actual minutiae but will remember where to find it.
The only exception would be when one has already achieved such knowledge
prior to the exam by other means, in which case the only reason to have
taken it would have either been to prove to a third party or oneself that
one has achieved this badge of merit.


Again, the only people to whom you will be able to prove this are those
who have little understanding of what MCPs are. It's tantamount to trying
to get the post of Head of School of Business Studies at the London School
of Economics armed with no more than an MBa you'd bought off the Internet
(they exist...). If the person interviewing you is sufficiently uninformed
about the worth of your "qualification", then more fool them, and good
luck to you!
I have never said that the exam certificate is a predicate to being
thought of as professional or to be seen as able in the science of
producing well written software,


So why waste your time with it?
but nevertheless, one cannot be harmed from having gone through the
process.


On the contrary - I've sat in on more than one technical interview where
the interviewee was aked why he'd wasted his time and money on MCPs...
I propose that it is better to have achieved the certificates than not,
and whilst you personally may be more proficient than those who have
them, I think to look down on those who have run the gauntlet of the
challenge, would be rather snobbish to say the least and down right
arrogant to say the most.


Making a non-IT analogy, David Blaine (the so-called magician) was able to
stand atop a tall pillar in America for a few days without falling off and
killing himself, and was able (if he is to be believed) to subsist on
nothing more than water for several weeks in a glass box suspended above
the Thames. Both feats are doubtless incredibly impressive to those who
are impressed by such things - alternatively, what a total and utter waste
of time!
Have a thought for those lesser mortals who are so much less able than
yourself, and who aspire to your elevated position, but don't have twelve
years or so to spend on the gut wrenching ardours of coding skirmishes to
be considered worthy to wear your colours, and have to simply settle at
this point for going through Microsoft's own certification system.


Alternatively, why not redirect the efforts you will expend in revising
for your MCP into actually learning to be a developer...?

Nov 19 '05 #17

P: n/a
:)


"Mark Rae" <ma**@mark-N-O-S-P-A-M-rae.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ux*************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:eg**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
I don't think that "Mr. Newbie" is as much of
a "newbie" as his self-chosen name would indicate.

He seems to have quite a bit of programming experience.


Wonder why on earth he's wasting his time with MCPs...???

Nov 19 '05 #18

P: n/a
Do you program with that logic?
Your rhetoric is exhaustive; you must feel passionate about the subject.
There is a distinct difference between rhetoric and logic/fact. There is
nothing rhetorical in what I wrote. I feel passionate about programming, and
about people who want to better themselves at programming. Programming is an
admirable profession, and wanting to better one's self is an admirable goal.
Your reply is quite long as well. What exactly floats *your* boat?
Bitterness and anger?
The fact that one 'strives' to pass an exam by using study preparations by
definition means that one must 'learn' or assures ones learning during the
course of such preparation.
I believe I logically pointed out the difference in quality between knowing
a lot and knowing how to find out what one needs to know when one needs to
know it. I also pointed out that problem-solving is much more valuable than
a volume of knowledge, in the programming biz. While you may disagree,
perhaps you might like to support your argument with some fact and/or logic.
Otherwise, you are simply exhaling noisily.
I have never said that the exam certificate is a predicate to being
thought of as professional or to be seen as able in the science of
producing well written software, but nevertheless, one cannot be harmed
from having gone through the process.
I don't believe I suggested anything with regards to what you may or may not
have said. I care nothing for how I am thought of, except by those to whom I
am accountable, for example, my wife, my boss, and God. And I never
mentioned anything about the value of being thought highly of by anyone. You
are imagining things.
I propose that it is better to have achieved the certificates than not,
and whilst you personally may be more proficient than those who have them,
I think to look down on those who have run the gauntlet of the challenge,
would be rather snobbish to say the least and down right arrogant to say
the most.
Again, I did not imply that I "look down on" anyone. You are reading things
into my message that I did not say. My criticism was with regards to the
efficacy of certification exams, and with the usefulness of taking and/or
passing them.
I'm pleased that you feel able to wear colours which demonstrate your wit,
courage, determination and heroism earned in fighting the bloody, savage
and brutalistic struggles seen in countless project battlegrounds in the
IT Amphitheatre.
Another mistaken mis-interpretation. My point was that I speak from
experience, and I provided evidence from my own experience to make the
argument. A proposition of an idea without some evidence to justify the idea
is nothing more than exhaling noisily. I try to avoid that. There are enough
opinions floating around this planet to cause global warming. If you write
programs with that many assumptions, they must surely be unstable.
Have a thought for those lesser mortals who are so much less able than
yourself, and who aspire to your elevated position, but don't have twelve
years or so to spend on the gut wrenching ardours of coding skirmishes to
be considered worthy to wear your colours, and have to simply settle at
this point for going through Microsoft's own certification system.
You've got issues, Mac, "Mr. Newbie," or should I say "Mr. Safely
Anonymous." What are you afraid of? It is easy enough to take potshots at
people from behind the safety of anonymity. And just as cowardly.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
A watched clock never boils.

"Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
news:Oi**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl... Your rhetoric is exhaustive; you must feel passionate about the subject.
Whilst I see the intellectual merit of some of your points, your argument
completely fails to address my point.

To say that the Microsoft Certification Process is 'meaningless' is simply
'Incorrect'

The fact that one 'strives' to pass an exam by using study preparations by
definition means that one must 'learn' or assures ones learning during the
course of such preparation. The only exception would be when one has
already achieved such knowledge prior to the exam by other means, in which
case the only reason to have taken it would have either been to prove to a
third party or oneself that one has achieved this badge of merit.

I have never said that the exam certificate is a predicate to being
thought of as professional or to be seen as able in the science of
producing well written software, but nevertheless, one cannot be harmed
from having gone through the process.

I propose that it is better to have achieved the certificates than not,
and whilst you personally may be more proficient than those who have them,
I think to look down on those who have run the gauntlet of the challenge,
would be rather snobbish to say the least and down right arrogant to say
the most.

I'm pleased that you feel able to wear colours which demonstrate your wit,
courage, determination and heroism earned in fighting the bloody, savage
and brutalistic struggles seen in countless project battlegrounds in the
IT Amphitheatre.

Have a thought for those lesser mortals who are so much less able than
yourself, and who aspire to your elevated position, but don't have twelve
years or so to spend on the gut wrenching ardours of coding skirmishes to
be considered worthy to wear your colours, and have to simply settle at
this point for going through Microsoft's own certification system.
HTH


"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
Until now at least, the certification process has been meaningless. The
development world is hideously complex, and even knowing the answers to
all of the questions in an exam doesn't prepare one for the experience of
real-world development. Only the experience itself does. In other words,
using a carpenter as an analogy, there is a difference between knowing
what all of one's tools are, how they work, what they are used for, and
how to read a blueprint, and knowing how to build houses.

All development projects are different, and present different and unique
challenges to the developer. In my experiences, Murphy is a constant
companion. I am constantly barraged by new situations, requirements that
exceed my skill set, problems I have never encountered before, and I've
been programming for a dozen years.

A certification exam can measure certain things, and is useful for
measuring those things, and those things only. Among the most critical
skills required by any developer are problem-solving skill, logic,
creative thinking, anal attention to detail, a measure of healthy
paranoia, and dogged persistence. Until now, I have not seen
certification exams which are able to measure most of these things. I
have not seen certification exams which do measure the ones which can be
measured (such as problem-solving and logic).

It is not very important to know a lot. After all, "a lot" is a
non-specific quantity. Without a frame of reference, it is meaningless.
It is *critically* important to be able to find out a lot, and to be able
to do so quickly. I'd love to see an exam which involved playing "20
questions." THAT would be a good measurement criteria!

The best developers I have known and worked with most often had little or
no formal training, and either had not taken any certification exams, or
had taken them as a requirement of their job, and for no other reason.
Programming is a high-salary job. Many people are going to want to make
the kind of money that can be made doing it. Among them, only a select
few are "born programmers" or have the self-discipline and persistence to
acquire these skills and qualities.

Most people don't realize it, but it requires less work over a lifetime
to become a Doctor. While there is a period of some years during which an
aspiring Doctor has to work his/her proverbial butt off, after that, it
is fairly easy to keep up with the advances in the trade. Most Doctors
are specialists of one sort or another, and only need to keep up with a
limited set of knowledge. They have nurses and other lower-paid medical
technicians to do most of their work for them. And the human body isn't
re-designed every 5 or 10 years.

As for me, and others like me (you know who you are), I spend as much
time studying as I do developing. And I feel like I can never manage to
keep up, even though I do, by comparison, overall. Fortunately for me, I
love to learn. I love a challenge. I can endure almost any stress except
for boredom. Math, Logic, and Science are the greatest loves of my life,
with the (possible) exception of my wife. ;-)

But how many people who aspire to make the big bucks have similar traits?
Many aspiring developers are people who saw an ad for "Some Technical
Institute" on tv, and bought into the hype. They are in it for the money.
There are as many hack developers out there as there are hack car
mechanics, hack politicians, and hack lawyers. Some of these are very
good at passing certification exams.

I have never taken one. Why?

1. I have never needed to. I have always acquired work by virtue of my
accomplishments (A good portfolio is worth a thousand certificates).
2. I have never been required to by a job that I've held.
3. I have been too busy studying and performing to take the time for an
exam.
4. Taking the above into consideration, I have never wanted to take one
"for fun." Taking an exam is not my idea of fun. The real exam is my
everyday life.

Anyway, that's my story and I'm stickin' with it!

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
A watched clock never boils.

"Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
news:e2**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
I think that not withstanding the colourfull language used, she has a
point !

For someone who has had no real experience with the technology it would
be impossible to pass the exam cold. Therefore to at least work through
the MS or other preperation material has merit in terms of study time
applied and the will and focus to actually schedule and realize the exam
iteself.

Therfore I beleive in the merit of this process, however I take your
points regarding the potential for the results to skew the underlying
aptitude.

For someone who already knows the technology, of course the exams would
probably be fairly mechanical, especially for someone like yourself who
is obviously an experienced person in this field.

I hope that I do make the grade and go on to better things. I view it as
a stepping stone.

And thanks for all the replies to my post.

Thanks Again .. Mr Newbie
"Guadala Harry" <GM**@BeansAndTacos.org> wrote in message
news:Oz**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
Your post is confusing. I'm a developer who has passed 13 of these
tests and I'm sure you read my post explaining the lack of objective
meaning... and then you make your sweeping statement???

Also, please don't post profanity here. Unlike the SQL Programming NG
and others, this one is fairly civil. We'd like to keep it that way.

-GH

"Tina" <ti**********@nospammeexcite.com> wrote in message
news:ex**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> My experience is that developers who say these test mean nothing are
> afraid to take them or maybe not up to the effort to study for them.
> Just because you pass the bar does not mean you are an excellent
> lawyer but it is evidence that you are not some dumb shit.
>
> T :)
>
> "Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
> news:uU*************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>> Im going to be looking to do this exam fairly soon, but ive done a
>> couple of practice tests and found them to be a bit tricky in as much
>> as you have to REALLY READ the questions carefully else they trip you
>> up.
>>
>> When you have four multi choice and each one has 8 lines of code, its
>> like looking at those damn near identicle picture and spotting the
>> difference. Its almost as if they expect you to have an on line help
>> in your head !!
>>
>> How did others get on with it ?
>>
>> Cheers Mr N
>>
>> PS: Im going to hook up my positronic relay to a Sub Dermal Borg
>> Neural Node Interlink transmitter and connect to the billion tera
>> quads of help provided with VS2003, this should help. If not I'm
>> going to re-route all emergency power to my cebral cortex and blow my
>> friggin head off!!!!
>>
>> :))
>>
>
>



Nov 19 '05 #19

P: n/a
"Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
news:OB**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
My point was simply, that the process of preparation is in itself is a
learning exercise regardless of if you consider the certificate has merit
or not. Some people don't think the way you and Mr Spencer appear to
think, and do have an opinion which differs from your good selves, and for
them this certificate has some value.
And lots of people still believe that the earth if flat - what's your point
exactly...?
If this is true, then the certificate HAS value, and so does the process.
And if it doesn't, then the certificate has no value, nor does the process.
I do not claim there is no better way to test someone's ability, nor do I
assert that there is not a better learning process. Only that this is a
learning process
And I counter-claim that, whereas it may be a learning process (as is
everything from the moment you are born until the moment you die), that
learning is of no practical use whatever other than to prove that you have
excellent short-term memory. You may as well learn the value of pi to 1,000
places.
Have fun and enjoy your anger, at least then it will serve some
constructive function.
Oh for heaven's sake!
Regards Mr Newbie. . .


What's your real name, by the way...?
Nov 19 '05 #20

P: n/a
//
And I counter-claim that, whereas it may be a learning process (as is
everything from the moment you are born until the moment you die), that
learning is of no practical use whatever other than to prove that you have
excellent short-term memory. You may as well learn the value of pi to 1,000
places.
\\

Do you really beleive that 'learning is of no practical use other than to
prove that you have excellent short term memory' ?

Come now Mr Rae, surely you do not really beleive this ?

Regards Mr Newbie . . .
"Mark Rae" <ma**@mark-N-O-S-P-A-M-rae.co.uk> wrote in message
news:eo**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
"Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
news:OB**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
My point was simply, that the process of preparation is in itself is a
learning exercise regardless of if you consider the certificate has merit
or not. Some people don't think the way you and Mr Spencer appear to
think, and do have an opinion which differs from your good selves, and
for them this certificate has some value.


And lots of people still believe that the earth if flat - what's your
point exactly...?
If this is true, then the certificate HAS value, and so does the process.


And if it doesn't, then the certificate has no value, nor does the
process.
I do not claim there is no better way to test someone's ability, nor do I
assert that there is not a better learning process. Only that this is a
learning process


And I counter-claim that, whereas it may be a learning process (as is
everything from the moment you are born until the moment you die), that
learning is of no practical use whatever other than to prove that you have
excellent short-term memory. You may as well learn the value of pi to
1,000 places.
Have fun and enjoy your anger, at least then it will serve some
constructive function.


Oh for heaven's sake!
Regards Mr Newbie. . .


What's your real name, by the way...?

Nov 19 '05 #21

P: n/a
Oh, come now Mr Spencer ! (Which by the way, could be as fictitious as Mr
Newbie?), I was expecting a far more superior a rejoinder than this.

We may as well let the matter rest; you have your rhetoric (Which you are
convinced is logic and fact) and I have my view. So let us go about our
business, and continue to feel comfortable with our assumptions, as I can
see we are not likely to make common ground anytime soon.

Further dialog is only likely to elevate your resentment of me to an even
higher level.

With Best Regards

The Inimitable Mr Newbie !

AKA( Mr Anon )


;-D





"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:es**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
Do you program with that logic?
Your rhetoric is exhaustive; you must feel passionate about the subject.


There is a distinct difference between rhetoric and logic/fact. There is
nothing rhetorical in what I wrote. I feel passionate about programming,
and about people who want to better themselves at programming. Programming
is an admirable profession, and wanting to better one's self is an
admirable goal. Your reply is quite long as well. What exactly floats
*your* boat? Bitterness and anger?
The fact that one 'strives' to pass an exam by using study preparations
by definition means that one must 'learn' or assures ones learning during
the course of such preparation.


I believe I logically pointed out the difference in quality between
knowing a lot and knowing how to find out what one needs to know when one
needs to know it. I also pointed out that problem-solving is much more
valuable than a volume of knowledge, in the programming biz. While you may
disagree, perhaps you might like to support your argument with some fact
and/or logic. Otherwise, you are simply exhaling noisily.
I have never said that the exam certificate is a predicate to being
thought of as professional or to be seen as able in the science of
producing well written software, but nevertheless, one cannot be harmed
from having gone through the process.


I don't believe I suggested anything with regards to what you may or may
not have said. I care nothing for how I am thought of, except by those to
whom I am accountable, for example, my wife, my boss, and God. And I never
mentioned anything about the value of being thought highly of by anyone.
You are imagining things.
I propose that it is better to have achieved the certificates than not,
and whilst you personally may be more proficient than those who have
them, I think to look down on those who have run the gauntlet of the
challenge, would be rather snobbish to say the least and down right
arrogant to say the most.


Again, I did not imply that I "look down on" anyone. You are reading
things into my message that I did not say. My criticism was with regards
to the efficacy of certification exams, and with the usefulness of taking
and/or passing them.
I'm pleased that you feel able to wear colours which demonstrate your
wit, courage, determination and heroism earned in fighting the bloody,
savage and brutalistic struggles seen in countless project battlegrounds
in the IT Amphitheatre.


Another mistaken mis-interpretation. My point was that I speak from
experience, and I provided evidence from my own experience to make the
argument. A proposition of an idea without some evidence to justify the
idea is nothing more than exhaling noisily. I try to avoid that. There are
enough opinions floating around this planet to cause global warming. If
you write programs with that many assumptions, they must surely be
unstable.
Have a thought for those lesser mortals who are so much less able than
yourself, and who aspire to your elevated position, but don't have twelve
years or so to spend on the gut wrenching ardours of coding skirmishes to
be considered worthy to wear your colours, and have to simply settle at
this point for going through Microsoft's own certification system.


You've got issues, Mac, "Mr. Newbie," or should I say "Mr. Safely
Anonymous." What are you afraid of? It is easy enough to take potshots at
people from behind the safety of anonymity. And just as cowardly.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
A watched clock never boils.

"Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
news:Oi**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
Your rhetoric is exhaustive; you must feel passionate about the subject.
Whilst I see the intellectual merit of some of your points, your argument
completely fails to address my point.

To say that the Microsoft Certification Process is 'meaningless' is
simply 'Incorrect'

The fact that one 'strives' to pass an exam by using study preparations
by definition means that one must 'learn' or assures ones learning during
the course of such preparation. The only exception would be when one has
already achieved such knowledge prior to the exam by other means, in
which case the only reason to have taken it would have either been to
prove to a third party or oneself that one has achieved this badge of
merit.

I have never said that the exam certificate is a predicate to being
thought of as professional or to be seen as able in the science of
producing well written software, but nevertheless, one cannot be harmed
from having gone through the process.

I propose that it is better to have achieved the certificates than not,
and whilst you personally may be more proficient than those who have
them, I think to look down on those who have run the gauntlet of the
challenge, would be rather snobbish to say the least and down right
arrogant to say the most.

I'm pleased that you feel able to wear colours which demonstrate your
wit, courage, determination and heroism earned in fighting the bloody,
savage and brutalistic struggles seen in countless project battlegrounds
in the IT Amphitheatre.

Have a thought for those lesser mortals who are so much less able than
yourself, and who aspire to your elevated position, but don't have twelve
years or so to spend on the gut wrenching ardours of coding skirmishes to
be considered worthy to wear your colours, and have to simply settle at
this point for going through Microsoft's own certification system.
HTH


"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
Until now at least, the certification process has been meaningless. The
development world is hideously complex, and even knowing the answers to
all of the questions in an exam doesn't prepare one for the experience
of real-world development. Only the experience itself does. In other
words, using a carpenter as an analogy, there is a difference between
knowing what all of one's tools are, how they work, what they are used
for, and how to read a blueprint, and knowing how to build houses.

All development projects are different, and present different and unique
challenges to the developer. In my experiences, Murphy is a constant
companion. I am constantly barraged by new situations, requirements that
exceed my skill set, problems I have never encountered before, and I've
been programming for a dozen years.

A certification exam can measure certain things, and is useful for
measuring those things, and those things only. Among the most critical
skills required by any developer are problem-solving skill, logic,
creative thinking, anal attention to detail, a measure of healthy
paranoia, and dogged persistence. Until now, I have not seen
certification exams which are able to measure most of these things. I
have not seen certification exams which do measure the ones which can be
measured (such as problem-solving and logic).

It is not very important to know a lot. After all, "a lot" is a
non-specific quantity. Without a frame of reference, it is meaningless.
It is *critically* important to be able to find out a lot, and to be
able to do so quickly. I'd love to see an exam which involved playing
"20 questions." THAT would be a good measurement criteria!

The best developers I have known and worked with most often had little
or no formal training, and either had not taken any certification exams,
or had taken them as a requirement of their job, and for no other
reason. Programming is a high-salary job. Many people are going to want
to make the kind of money that can be made doing it. Among them, only a
select few are "born programmers" or have the self-discipline and
persistence to acquire these skills and qualities.

Most people don't realize it, but it requires less work over a lifetime
to become a Doctor. While there is a period of some years during which
an aspiring Doctor has to work his/her proverbial butt off, after that,
it is fairly easy to keep up with the advances in the trade. Most
Doctors are specialists of one sort or another, and only need to keep up
with a limited set of knowledge. They have nurses and other lower-paid
medical technicians to do most of their work for them. And the human
body isn't re-designed every 5 or 10 years.

As for me, and others like me (you know who you are), I spend as much
time studying as I do developing. And I feel like I can never manage to
keep up, even though I do, by comparison, overall. Fortunately for me, I
love to learn. I love a challenge. I can endure almost any stress except
for boredom. Math, Logic, and Science are the greatest loves of my life,
with the (possible) exception of my wife. ;-)

But how many people who aspire to make the big bucks have similar
traits? Many aspiring developers are people who saw an ad for "Some
Technical Institute" on tv, and bought into the hype. They are in it for
the money. There are as many hack developers out there as there are hack
car mechanics, hack politicians, and hack lawyers. Some of these are
very good at passing certification exams.

I have never taken one. Why?

1. I have never needed to. I have always acquired work by virtue of my
accomplishments (A good portfolio is worth a thousand certificates).
2. I have never been required to by a job that I've held.
3. I have been too busy studying and performing to take the time for an
exam.
4. Taking the above into consideration, I have never wanted to take one
"for fun." Taking an exam is not my idea of fun. The real exam is my
everyday life.

Anyway, that's my story and I'm stickin' with it!

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
A watched clock never boils.

"Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
news:e2**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
I think that not withstanding the colourfull language used, she has a
point !

For someone who has had no real experience with the technology it would
be impossible to pass the exam cold. Therefore to at least work through
the MS or other preperation material has merit in terms of study time
applied and the will and focus to actually schedule and realize the
exam iteself.

Therfore I beleive in the merit of this process, however I take your
points regarding the potential for the results to skew the underlying
aptitude.

For someone who already knows the technology, of course the exams would
probably be fairly mechanical, especially for someone like yourself who
is obviously an experienced person in this field.

I hope that I do make the grade and go on to better things. I view it
as a stepping stone.

And thanks for all the replies to my post.

Thanks Again .. Mr Newbie
"Guadala Harry" <GM**@BeansAndTacos.org> wrote in message
news:Oz**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> Your post is confusing. I'm a developer who has passed 13 of these
> tests and I'm sure you read my post explaining the lack of objective
> meaning... and then you make your sweeping statement???
>
> Also, please don't post profanity here. Unlike the SQL Programming NG
> and others, this one is fairly civil. We'd like to keep it that way.
>
> -GH
>
> "Tina" <ti**********@nospammeexcite.com> wrote in message
> news:ex**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>> My experience is that developers who say these test mean nothing are
>> afraid to take them or maybe not up to the effort to study for them.
>> Just because you pass the bar does not mean you are an excellent
>> lawyer but it is evidence that you are not some dumb shit.
>>
>> T :)
>>
>> "Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
>> news:uU*************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>>> Im going to be looking to do this exam fairly soon, but ive done a
>>> couple of practice tests and found them to be a bit tricky in as
>>> much as you have to REALLY READ the questions carefully else they
>>> trip you up.
>>>
>>> When you have four multi choice and each one has 8 lines of code,
>>> its like looking at those damn near identicle picture and spotting
>>> the difference. Its almost as if they expect you to have an on line
>>> help in your head !!
>>>
>>> How did others get on with it ?
>>>
>>> Cheers Mr N
>>>
>>> PS: Im going to hook up my positronic relay to a Sub Dermal Borg
>>> Neural Node Interlink transmitter and connect to the billion tera
>>> quads of help provided with VS2003, this should help. If not I'm
>>> going to re-route all emergency power to my cebral cortex and blow
>>> my friggin head off!!!!
>>>
>>> :))
>>>
>>
>>
>
>



Nov 19 '05 #22

P: n/a
"Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
Do you really beleive that 'learning is of no practical use other than to
prove that you have excellent short term memory' ?

Come now Mr Rae, surely you do not really beleive this ?


To pass an MCP, you need to be able to remember a whole slew of minutiae
which you will never need to remember thereafter, and which you will
therefore quickly forget.

It's akin to learning a role for a one-time performance of a play.

You may as well just visit one of the many websites from where you can
download the entire collection of questions (and answers) for any MCP you're
interested in.
Nov 19 '05 #23

P: n/a
Mr Rae,

Perhaps our differences are mainly as a result of the methods of study you
think I employ.

In order to study for these certifications, my intention is to learn all I
can about the technology so that when I take the exam I can answer the
questions with a degree of implicit self trust in my underlying competence.

Simply learning answers rote from thousands of multi-choice questions is
not my idea of a useful learning experience and that is why I spend a lot of
time experimenting with the concepts brought to each chapter of the book I
am using.

I have used some of the practice questions to prepare myself for the
certification exam because I want to get through the exam regardless of
whoever thinks it has merit. However, the main drive is to learn, which I
am slowly, but surely, managing to do.

It may be some time before I can call myself competent or experienced with
this particular area of .NET but It will happen, and I will not only have
gained the knowledge that I desire, but I will additionally have the
certificate. Think of it as a framework which serves as a means to two ends.
Regards

Mr Newbie


"Mark Rae" <ma**@mark-N-O-S-P-A-M-rae.co.uk> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
"Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
Do you really beleive that 'learning is of no practical use other than to
prove that you have excellent short term memory' ?

Come now Mr Rae, surely you do not really beleive this ?


To pass an MCP, you need to be able to remember a whole slew of minutiae
which you will never need to remember thereafter, and which you will
therefore quickly forget.

It's akin to learning a role for a one-time performance of a play.

You may as well just visit one of the many websites from where you can
download the entire collection of questions (and answers) for any MCP
you're interested in.

Nov 19 '05 #24

P: n/a
If you want to impress people with your flowery language, you might want to
look up the word "rhetoric" in the dictionary before you go flouncing it
around again, unless you are satisfied with your own subjectively elevated
perception of your erudition, and wish to continue remain ignorant of
reality. An abundance of multi-syllabic 19th-century Louisiana aristocratic
dialect doesn't compensate for ignorance of the meaning of words.

And, in the future, should you disagree with me, by all means, present your
arguments against my assertions, but leave out the personal attacks. You
wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
A watched clock never boils.

"Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
news:uF**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
Oh, come now Mr Spencer ! (Which by the way, could be as fictitious as Mr
Newbie?), I was expecting a far more superior a rejoinder than this.

We may as well let the matter rest; you have your rhetoric (Which you are
convinced is logic and fact) and I have my view. So let us go about our
business, and continue to feel comfortable with our assumptions, as I can
see we are not likely to make common ground anytime soon.

Further dialog is only likely to elevate your resentment of me to an even
higher level.

With Best Regards

The Inimitable Mr Newbie !

AKA( Mr Anon )


;-D





"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:es**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
Do you program with that logic?
Your rhetoric is exhaustive; you must feel passionate about the subject.


There is a distinct difference between rhetoric and logic/fact. There is
nothing rhetorical in what I wrote. I feel passionate about programming,
and about people who want to better themselves at programming.
Programming is an admirable profession, and wanting to better one's self
is an admirable goal. Your reply is quite long as well. What exactly
floats *your* boat? Bitterness and anger?
The fact that one 'strives' to pass an exam by using study preparations
by definition means that one must 'learn' or assures ones learning
during the course of such preparation.


I believe I logically pointed out the difference in quality between
knowing a lot and knowing how to find out what one needs to know when one
needs to know it. I also pointed out that problem-solving is much more
valuable than a volume of knowledge, in the programming biz. While you
may disagree, perhaps you might like to support your argument with some
fact and/or logic. Otherwise, you are simply exhaling noisily.
I have never said that the exam certificate is a predicate to being
thought of as professional or to be seen as able in the science of
producing well written software, but nevertheless, one cannot be harmed
from having gone through the process.


I don't believe I suggested anything with regards to what you may or may
not have said. I care nothing for how I am thought of, except by those to
whom I am accountable, for example, my wife, my boss, and God. And I
never mentioned anything about the value of being thought highly of by
anyone. You are imagining things.
I propose that it is better to have achieved the certificates than not,
and whilst you personally may be more proficient than those who have
them, I think to look down on those who have run the gauntlet of the
challenge, would be rather snobbish to say the least and down right
arrogant to say the most.


Again, I did not imply that I "look down on" anyone. You are reading
things into my message that I did not say. My criticism was with regards
to the efficacy of certification exams, and with the usefulness of taking
and/or passing them.
I'm pleased that you feel able to wear colours which demonstrate your
wit, courage, determination and heroism earned in fighting the bloody,
savage and brutalistic struggles seen in countless project battlegrounds
in the IT Amphitheatre.


Another mistaken mis-interpretation. My point was that I speak from
experience, and I provided evidence from my own experience to make the
argument. A proposition of an idea without some evidence to justify the
idea is nothing more than exhaling noisily. I try to avoid that. There
are enough opinions floating around this planet to cause global warming.
If you write programs with that many assumptions, they must surely be
unstable.
Have a thought for those lesser mortals who are so much less able than
yourself, and who aspire to your elevated position, but don't have
twelve years or so to spend on the gut wrenching ardours of coding
skirmishes to be considered worthy to wear your colours, and have to
simply settle at this point for going through Microsoft's own
certification system.


You've got issues, Mac, "Mr. Newbie," or should I say "Mr. Safely
Anonymous." What are you afraid of? It is easy enough to take potshots at
people from behind the safety of anonymity. And just as cowardly.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
A watched clock never boils.

"Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
news:Oi**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
Your rhetoric is exhaustive; you must feel passionate about the subject.
Whilst I see the intellectual merit of some of your points, your
argument completely fails to address my point.

To say that the Microsoft Certification Process is 'meaningless' is
simply 'Incorrect'

The fact that one 'strives' to pass an exam by using study preparations
by definition means that one must 'learn' or assures ones learning
during the course of such preparation. The only exception would be when
one has already achieved such knowledge prior to the exam by other
means, in which case the only reason to have taken it would have either
been to prove to a third party or oneself that one has achieved this
badge of merit.

I have never said that the exam certificate is a predicate to being
thought of as professional or to be seen as able in the science of
producing well written software, but nevertheless, one cannot be harmed
from having gone through the process.

I propose that it is better to have achieved the certificates than not,
and whilst you personally may be more proficient than those who have
them, I think to look down on those who have run the gauntlet of the
challenge, would be rather snobbish to say the least and down right
arrogant to say the most.

I'm pleased that you feel able to wear colours which demonstrate your
wit, courage, determination and heroism earned in fighting the bloody,
savage and brutalistic struggles seen in countless project battlegrounds
in the IT Amphitheatre.

Have a thought for those lesser mortals who are so much less able than
yourself, and who aspire to your elevated position, but don't have
twelve years or so to spend on the gut wrenching ardours of coding
skirmishes to be considered worthy to wear your colours, and have to
simply settle at this point for going through Microsoft's own
certification system.
HTH


"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
Until now at least, the certification process has been meaningless. The
development world is hideously complex, and even knowing the answers to
all of the questions in an exam doesn't prepare one for the experience
of real-world development. Only the experience itself does. In other
words, using a carpenter as an analogy, there is a difference between
knowing what all of one's tools are, how they work, what they are used
for, and how to read a blueprint, and knowing how to build houses.

All development projects are different, and present different and
unique challenges to the developer. In my experiences, Murphy is a
constant companion. I am constantly barraged by new situations,
requirements that exceed my skill set, problems I have never
encountered before, and I've been programming for a dozen years.

A certification exam can measure certain things, and is useful for
measuring those things, and those things only. Among the most critical
skills required by any developer are problem-solving skill, logic,
creative thinking, anal attention to detail, a measure of healthy
paranoia, and dogged persistence. Until now, I have not seen
certification exams which are able to measure most of these things. I
have not seen certification exams which do measure the ones which can
be measured (such as problem-solving and logic).

It is not very important to know a lot. After all, "a lot" is a
non-specific quantity. Without a frame of reference, it is meaningless.
It is *critically* important to be able to find out a lot, and to be
able to do so quickly. I'd love to see an exam which involved playing
"20 questions." THAT would be a good measurement criteria!

The best developers I have known and worked with most often had little
or no formal training, and either had not taken any certification
exams, or had taken them as a requirement of their job, and for no
other reason. Programming is a high-salary job. Many people are going
to want to make the kind of money that can be made doing it. Among
them, only a select few are "born programmers" or have the
self-discipline and persistence to acquire these skills and qualities.

Most people don't realize it, but it requires less work over a lifetime
to become a Doctor. While there is a period of some years during which
an aspiring Doctor has to work his/her proverbial butt off, after that,
it is fairly easy to keep up with the advances in the trade. Most
Doctors are specialists of one sort or another, and only need to keep
up with a limited set of knowledge. They have nurses and other
lower-paid medical technicians to do most of their work for them. And
the human body isn't re-designed every 5 or 10 years.

As for me, and others like me (you know who you are), I spend as much
time studying as I do developing. And I feel like I can never manage to
keep up, even though I do, by comparison, overall. Fortunately for me,
I love to learn. I love a challenge. I can endure almost any stress
except for boredom. Math, Logic, and Science are the greatest loves of
my life, with the (possible) exception of my wife. ;-)

But how many people who aspire to make the big bucks have similar
traits? Many aspiring developers are people who saw an ad for "Some
Technical Institute" on tv, and bought into the hype. They are in it
for the money. There are as many hack developers out there as there are
hack car mechanics, hack politicians, and hack lawyers. Some of these
are very good at passing certification exams.

I have never taken one. Why?

1. I have never needed to. I have always acquired work by virtue of my
accomplishments (A good portfolio is worth a thousand certificates).
2. I have never been required to by a job that I've held.
3. I have been too busy studying and performing to take the time for an
exam.
4. Taking the above into consideration, I have never wanted to take one
"for fun." Taking an exam is not my idea of fun. The real exam is my
everyday life.

Anyway, that's my story and I'm stickin' with it!

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
A watched clock never boils.

"Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
news:e2**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
>I think that not withstanding the colourfull language used, she has a
>point !
>
> For someone who has had no real experience with the technology it
> would be impossible to pass the exam cold. Therefore to at least work
> through the MS or other preperation material has merit in terms of
> study time applied and the will and focus to actually schedule and
> realize the exam iteself.
>
> Therfore I beleive in the merit of this process, however I take your
> points regarding the potential for the results to skew the underlying
> aptitude.
>
> For someone who already knows the technology, of course the exams
> would probably be fairly mechanical, especially for someone like
> yourself who is obviously an experienced person in this field.
>
> I hope that I do make the grade and go on to better things. I view it
> as a stepping stone.
>
> And thanks for all the replies to my post.
>
> Thanks Again .. Mr Newbie
>
>
> "Guadala Harry" <GM**@BeansAndTacos.org> wrote in message
> news:Oz**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>> Your post is confusing. I'm a developer who has passed 13 of these
>> tests and I'm sure you read my post explaining the lack of objective
>> meaning... and then you make your sweeping statement???
>>
>> Also, please don't post profanity here. Unlike the SQL Programming NG
>> and others, this one is fairly civil. We'd like to keep it that way.
>>
>> -GH
>>
>> "Tina" <ti**********@nospammeexcite.com> wrote in message
>> news:ex**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>>> My experience is that developers who say these test mean nothing are
>>> afraid to take them or maybe not up to the effort to study for them.
>>> Just because you pass the bar does not mean you are an excellent
>>> lawyer but it is evidence that you are not some dumb shit.
>>>
>>> T :)
>>>
>>> "Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
>>> news:uU*************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>>>> Im going to be looking to do this exam fairly soon, but ive done a
>>>> couple of practice tests and found them to be a bit tricky in as
>>>> much as you have to REALLY READ the questions carefully else they
>>>> trip you up.
>>>>
>>>> When you have four multi choice and each one has 8 lines of code,
>>>> its like looking at those damn near identicle picture and spotting
>>>> the difference. Its almost as if they expect you to have an on line
>>>> help in your head !!
>>>>
>>>> How did others get on with it ?
>>>>
>>>> Cheers Mr N
>>>>
>>>> PS: Im going to hook up my positronic relay to a Sub Dermal Borg
>>>> Neural Node Interlink transmitter and connect to the billion tera
>>>> quads of help provided with VS2003, this should help. If not I'm
>>>> going to re-route all emergency power to my cebral cortex and blow
>>>> my friggin head off!!!!
>>>>
>>>> :))
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>



Nov 19 '05 #25

P: n/a
> I have used some of the practice questions to prepare myself for the
certification exam because I want to get through the exam regardless of
whoever thinks it has merit. However, the main drive is to learn
Now *there's* something I can applaud. The desire for knowledge is, in and
of itself, a worthy endeavor. Everyone has their own way of learning. I
admit that I seek knowledge about the technologies we work with out of sheer
fascination, and spend hours a day reading and researching. Often, that
research is in areas that do not necessarily or immediately promote my
career, but increase my overall knowledge. And that is always a good thing,
as areas of knowledge and study tend to overlap.

If I gave you the impression that knowledge itself is useless, let me clear
that up right away. While the ability to solve problems and find information
is *more" useful to a programmer, the importance of accumulation of
knowledge and understanding is not diminished.

In fact, I have sometimes toyed with the idea of studying the same materials
for just that purpose. However, I have yet to find the time to do so, and I
seem to learn better in a less-structured environment. But as I said, we all
learn in different ways.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
A watched clock never boils.
"Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
news:u7**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl... Mr Rae,

Perhaps our differences are mainly as a result of the methods of study you
think I employ.

In order to study for these certifications, my intention is to learn all I
can about the technology so that when I take the exam I can answer the
questions with a degree of implicit self trust in my underlying
competence.

Simply learning answers rote from thousands of multi-choice questions is
not my idea of a useful learning experience and that is why I spend a lot
of time experimenting with the concepts brought to each chapter of the
book I am using.

I have used some of the practice questions to prepare myself for the
certification exam because I want to get through the exam regardless of
whoever thinks it has merit. However, the main drive is to learn, which I
am slowly, but surely, managing to do.

It may be some time before I can call myself competent or experienced with
this particular area of .NET but It will happen, and I will not only have
gained the knowledge that I desire, but I will additionally have the
certificate. Think of it as a framework which serves as a means to two
ends.
Regards

Mr Newbie


"Mark Rae" <ma**@mark-N-O-S-P-A-M-rae.co.uk> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
"Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
Do you really beleive that 'learning is of no practical use other than
to prove that you have excellent short term memory' ?

Come now Mr Rae, surely you do not really beleive this ?


To pass an MCP, you need to be able to remember a whole slew of minutiae
which you will never need to remember thereafter, and which you will
therefore quickly forget.

It's akin to learning a role for a one-time performance of a play.

You may as well just visit one of the many websites from where you can
download the entire collection of questions (and answers) for any MCP
you're interested in.


Nov 19 '05 #26

P: n/a
Mr Spencer,

Definitions of rhetoric on the Web:

a.. using language effectively to please or persuade
b.. grandiosity: high-flown style; excessive use of verbal ornamentation;
"the grandiosity of his prose"; "an excessive ornateness of language"
c.. palaver: loud and confused and empty talk; "mere rhetoric"
d.. study of the technique and rules for using language effectively
(especially in public speaking)
You will note that the 'rhetoric' has more than one definition in the
popular language usage. The one I refer to was the one at the top. Or more
plainly put for your simpler tastes.

"Your attempt at producing a cogent and compelling argument".

Still, your reply did have me laughing with a degree of gusto. When you get
to know me a little better from newsgroups palaver or more useful
conversation, you will find I bear no malice nor make it my business to
attack personally with the same, nor corporately, as this rarely bears any
fruit on the tree of assistance.

Regards Mr Newbie..


"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:et*************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
If you want to impress people with your flowery language, you might want
to look up the word "rhetoric" in the dictionary before you go flouncing
it around again, unless you are satisfied with your own subjectively
elevated perception of your erudition, and wish to continue remain
ignorant of reality. An abundance of multi-syllabic 19th-century Louisiana
aristocratic dialect doesn't compensate for ignorance of the meaning of
words.

And, in the future, should you disagree with me, by all means, present
your arguments against my assertions, but leave out the personal attacks.
You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
A watched clock never boils.

"Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
news:uF**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
Oh, come now Mr Spencer ! (Which by the way, could be as fictitious as Mr
Newbie?), I was expecting a far more superior a rejoinder than this.

We may as well let the matter rest; you have your rhetoric (Which you are
convinced is logic and fact) and I have my view. So let us go about our
business, and continue to feel comfortable with our assumptions, as I can
see we are not likely to make common ground anytime soon.

Further dialog is only likely to elevate your resentment of me to an even
higher level.

With Best Regards

The Inimitable Mr Newbie !

AKA( Mr Anon )


;-D





"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:es**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
Do you program with that logic?

Your rhetoric is exhaustive; you must feel passionate about the
subject.

There is a distinct difference between rhetoric and logic/fact. There is
nothing rhetorical in what I wrote. I feel passionate about programming,
and about people who want to better themselves at programming.
Programming is an admirable profession, and wanting to better one's self
is an admirable goal. Your reply is quite long as well. What exactly
floats *your* boat? Bitterness and anger?

The fact that one 'strives' to pass an exam by using study preparations
by definition means that one must 'learn' or assures ones learning
during the course of such preparation.

I believe I logically pointed out the difference in quality between
knowing a lot and knowing how to find out what one needs to know when
one needs to know it. I also pointed out that problem-solving is much
more valuable than a volume of knowledge, in the programming biz. While
you may disagree, perhaps you might like to support your argument with
some fact and/or logic. Otherwise, you are simply exhaling noisily.

I have never said that the exam certificate is a predicate to being
thought of as professional or to be seen as able in the science of
producing well written software, but nevertheless, one cannot be harmed
from having gone through the process.

I don't believe I suggested anything with regards to what you may or may
not have said. I care nothing for how I am thought of, except by those
to whom I am accountable, for example, my wife, my boss, and God. And I
never mentioned anything about the value of being thought highly of by
anyone. You are imagining things.

I propose that it is better to have achieved the certificates than not,
and whilst you personally may be more proficient than those who have
them, I think to look down on those who have run the gauntlet of the
challenge, would be rather snobbish to say the least and down right
arrogant to say the most.

Again, I did not imply that I "look down on" anyone. You are reading
things into my message that I did not say. My criticism was with regards
to the efficacy of certification exams, and with the usefulness of
taking and/or passing them.

I'm pleased that you feel able to wear colours which demonstrate your
wit, courage, determination and heroism earned in fighting the bloody,
savage and brutalistic struggles seen in countless project
battlegrounds in the IT Amphitheatre.

Another mistaken mis-interpretation. My point was that I speak from
experience, and I provided evidence from my own experience to make the
argument. A proposition of an idea without some evidence to justify the
idea is nothing more than exhaling noisily. I try to avoid that. There
are enough opinions floating around this planet to cause global warming.
If you write programs with that many assumptions, they must surely be
unstable.

Have a thought for those lesser mortals who are so much less able than
yourself, and who aspire to your elevated position, but don't have
twelve years or so to spend on the gut wrenching ardours of coding
skirmishes to be considered worthy to wear your colours, and have to
simply settle at this point for going through Microsoft's own
certification system.

You've got issues, Mac, "Mr. Newbie," or should I say "Mr. Safely
Anonymous." What are you afraid of? It is easy enough to take potshots
at people from behind the safety of anonymity. And just as cowardly.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
A watched clock never boils.

"Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
news:Oi**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
Your rhetoric is exhaustive; you must feel passionate about the
subject. Whilst I see the intellectual merit of some of your points,
your argument completely fails to address my point.

To say that the Microsoft Certification Process is 'meaningless' is
simply 'Incorrect'

The fact that one 'strives' to pass an exam by using study preparations
by definition means that one must 'learn' or assures ones learning
during the course of such preparation. The only exception would be when
one has already achieved such knowledge prior to the exam by other
means, in which case the only reason to have taken it would have either
been to prove to a third party or oneself that one has achieved this
badge of merit.

I have never said that the exam certificate is a predicate to being
thought of as professional or to be seen as able in the science of
producing well written software, but nevertheless, one cannot be harmed
from having gone through the process.

I propose that it is better to have achieved the certificates than not,
and whilst you personally may be more proficient than those who have
them, I think to look down on those who have run the gauntlet of the
challenge, would be rather snobbish to say the least and down right
arrogant to say the most.

I'm pleased that you feel able to wear colours which demonstrate your
wit, courage, determination and heroism earned in fighting the bloody,
savage and brutalistic struggles seen in countless project
battlegrounds in the IT Amphitheatre.

Have a thought for those lesser mortals who are so much less able than
yourself, and who aspire to your elevated position, but don't have
twelve years or so to spend on the gut wrenching ardours of coding
skirmishes to be considered worthy to wear your colours, and have to
simply settle at this point for going through Microsoft's own
certification system.
HTH


"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
> Until now at least, the certification process has been meaningless.
> The development world is hideously complex, and even knowing the
> answers to all of the questions in an exam doesn't prepare one for the
> experience of real-world development. Only the experience itself does.
> In other words, using a carpenter as an analogy, there is a
> difference between knowing what all of one's tools are, how they work,
> what they are used for, and how to read a blueprint, and knowing how
> to build houses.
>
> All development projects are different, and present different and
> unique challenges to the developer. In my experiences, Murphy is a
> constant companion. I am constantly barraged by new situations,
> requirements that exceed my skill set, problems I have never
> encountered before, and I've been programming for a dozen years.
>
> A certification exam can measure certain things, and is useful for
> measuring those things, and those things only. Among the most critical
> skills required by any developer are problem-solving skill, logic,
> creative thinking, anal attention to detail, a measure of healthy
> paranoia, and dogged persistence. Until now, I have not seen
> certification exams which are able to measure most of these things. I
> have not seen certification exams which do measure the ones which can
> be measured (such as problem-solving and logic).
>
> It is not very important to know a lot. After all, "a lot" is a
> non-specific quantity. Without a frame of reference, it is
> meaningless. It is *critically* important to be able to find out a
> lot, and to be able to do so quickly. I'd love to see an exam which
> involved playing "20 questions." THAT would be a good measurement
> criteria!
>
> The best developers I have known and worked with most often had little
> or no formal training, and either had not taken any certification
> exams, or had taken them as a requirement of their job, and for no
> other reason. Programming is a high-salary job. Many people are going
> to want to make the kind of money that can be made doing it. Among
> them, only a select few are "born programmers" or have the
> self-discipline and persistence to acquire these skills and qualities.
>
> Most people don't realize it, but it requires less work over a
> lifetime to become a Doctor. While there is a period of some years
> during which an aspiring Doctor has to work his/her proverbial butt
> off, after that, it is fairly easy to keep up with the advances in the
> trade. Most Doctors are specialists of one sort or another, and only
> need to keep up with a limited set of knowledge. They have nurses and
> other lower-paid medical technicians to do most of their work for
> them. And the human body isn't re-designed every 5 or 10 years.
>
> As for me, and others like me (you know who you are), I spend as much
> time studying as I do developing. And I feel like I can never manage
> to keep up, even though I do, by comparison, overall. Fortunately for
> me, I love to learn. I love a challenge. I can endure almost any
> stress except for boredom. Math, Logic, and Science are the greatest
> loves of my life, with the (possible) exception of my wife. ;-)
>
> But how many people who aspire to make the big bucks have similar
> traits? Many aspiring developers are people who saw an ad for "Some
> Technical Institute" on tv, and bought into the hype. They are in it
> for the money. There are as many hack developers out there as there
> are hack car mechanics, hack politicians, and hack lawyers. Some of
> these are very good at passing certification exams.
>
> I have never taken one. Why?
>
> 1. I have never needed to. I have always acquired work by virtue of my
> accomplishments (A good portfolio is worth a thousand certificates).
> 2. I have never been required to by a job that I've held.
> 3. I have been too busy studying and performing to take the time for
> an exam.
> 4. Taking the above into consideration, I have never wanted to take
> one "for fun." Taking an exam is not my idea of fun. The real exam is
> my everyday life.
>
> Anyway, that's my story and I'm stickin' with it!
>
> --
> HTH,
>
> Kevin Spencer
> Microsoft MVP
> .Net Developer
> A watched clock never boils.
>
> "Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
> news:e2**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
>>I think that not withstanding the colourfull language used, she has a
>>point !
>>
>> For someone who has had no real experience with the technology it
>> would be impossible to pass the exam cold. Therefore to at least work
>> through the MS or other preperation material has merit in terms of
>> study time applied and the will and focus to actually schedule and
>> realize the exam iteself.
>>
>> Therfore I beleive in the merit of this process, however I take your
>> points regarding the potential for the results to skew the underlying
>> aptitude.
>>
>> For someone who already knows the technology, of course the exams
>> would probably be fairly mechanical, especially for someone like
>> yourself who is obviously an experienced person in this field.
>>
>> I hope that I do make the grade and go on to better things. I view it
>> as a stepping stone.
>>
>> And thanks for all the replies to my post.
>>
>> Thanks Again .. Mr Newbie
>>
>>
>> "Guadala Harry" <GM**@BeansAndTacos.org> wrote in message
>> news:Oz**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>>> Your post is confusing. I'm a developer who has passed 13 of these
>>> tests and I'm sure you read my post explaining the lack of objective
>>> meaning... and then you make your sweeping statement???
>>>
>>> Also, please don't post profanity here. Unlike the SQL Programming
>>> NG and others, this one is fairly civil. We'd like to keep it that
>>> way.
>>>
>>> -GH
>>>
>>> "Tina" <ti**********@nospammeexcite.com> wrote in message
>>> news:ex**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>>>> My experience is that developers who say these test mean nothing
>>>> are afraid to take them or maybe not up to the effort to study for
>>>> them. Just because you pass the bar does not mean you are an
>>>> excellent lawyer but it is evidence that you are not some dumb
>>>> shit.
>>>>
>>>> T :)
>>>>
>>>> "Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:uU*************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>>>>> Im going to be looking to do this exam fairly soon, but ive done a
>>>>> couple of practice tests and found them to be a bit tricky in as
>>>>> much as you have to REALLY READ the questions carefully else they
>>>>> trip you up.
>>>>>
>>>>> When you have four multi choice and each one has 8 lines of code,
>>>>> its like looking at those damn near identicle picture and spotting
>>>>> the difference. Its almost as if they expect you to have an on
>>>>> line help in your head !!
>>>>>
>>>>> How did others get on with it ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers Mr N
>>>>>
>>>>> PS: Im going to hook up my positronic relay to a Sub Dermal Borg
>>>>> Neural Node Interlink transmitter and connect to the billion tera
>>>>> quads of help provided with VS2003, this should help. If not I'm
>>>>> going to re-route all emergency power to my cebral cortex and blow
>>>>> my friggin head off!!!!
>>>>>
>>>>> :))
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>



Nov 19 '05 #27

P: n/a
> When you get to know me a little better from newsgroups palaver or more
useful conversation, you will find I bear no malice nor make it my
business to attack personally with the same, nor corporately, as this
rarely bears any fruit on the tree of assistance.
I'm glad to hear that. Perhaps I misread some of your rhetorical
characterizations. In any case, I'll take you at your word. At least you
seem to be able to deal with dispute in an emotionally-healthy manner. That
I respect.

As for the definition of "rhetoric," you still seem to miss the difference
(albeit subtle) between rhetoric and logic, or logical argument. Logic is
not an attempt to please or persuade. It is a means of resolving a problem,
of ascertaining as closely as possible the truth about an issue. To employ
logic in an argument is therefore not the same as to employ rhetoric. Logic
does not persuade. You cannot persuade 1 to be 0, nor true to be false. In
other words, rhetoric persuades, while logic dictates.

I am not interested in persuasion. That is best left to politicians and
salesmen. I am interested in truth, in fact, and in the logical ways and
means of deriving truth and fact, the only ideas that are useful for the
accomplishment of any purpose, particularly with regards to programming,
which is purely mathematical and logical, but also to the accomplishment of
(theoretically) anything whatsoever. In any case, my passion is the search
for truth.

I am here to help. Help with regards to these forums comes through
knowledge. Knowledge comes not by persuasion, but by logic and fact. When
fact is not known, it can often be derived by logic. However, as not all
facts are known, what seems to be factual logically may turn out to be
false, when more facts are brought to light.

Therefore, when I make an argument regarding an idea, I try to employ logic
with the same discipline that I apply to programming. I must admit, however,
that it is often *regarded* as rhetoric, and taken as a challenge to the
individual, rather than to an idea. This often leads to a reaction against
me, as if I owned the idea that I made an argument for. I may hold an idea;
I may defend and idea; but it will never belong to me. If a person can
logically refute the idea, I am just as quick to abandon it. After all, I
only have a limited life span in which to solve the riddles of life.

Conversely, when I challenge an idea, I am not challenging the individual
who promotes the idea, as if the idea were a reflection of that person.
However, this is quite often misunderstood in much the same way.

Rhetorical persuasion, however, does nothing to clarify an issue, nor to
solve a problem. It confuses issues, as it masquerades as information,
although it is not. It is manipulation disguised as information.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
A watched clock never boils.

"Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
news:uL*************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl... Mr Spencer,

Definitions of rhetoric on the Web:

a.. using language effectively to please or persuade
b.. grandiosity: high-flown style; excessive use of verbal ornamentation;
"the grandiosity of his prose"; "an excessive ornateness of language"
c.. palaver: loud and confused and empty talk; "mere rhetoric"
d.. study of the technique and rules for using language effectively
(especially in public speaking)
You will note that the 'rhetoric' has more than one definition in the
popular language usage. The one I refer to was the one at the top. Or more
plainly put for your simpler tastes.

"Your attempt at producing a cogent and compelling argument".

Still, your reply did have me laughing with a degree of gusto. When you
get to know me a little better from newsgroups palaver or more useful
conversation, you will find I bear no malice nor make it my business to
attack personally with the same, nor corporately, as this rarely bears any
fruit on the tree of assistance.

Regards Mr Newbie..


"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:et*************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
If you want to impress people with your flowery language, you might want
to look up the word "rhetoric" in the dictionary before you go flouncing
it around again, unless you are satisfied with your own subjectively
elevated perception of your erudition, and wish to continue remain
ignorant of reality. An abundance of multi-syllabic 19th-century
Louisiana aristocratic dialect doesn't compensate for ignorance of the
meaning of words.

And, in the future, should you disagree with me, by all means, present
your arguments against my assertions, but leave out the personal attacks.
You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
A watched clock never boils.

"Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
news:uF**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
Oh, come now Mr Spencer ! (Which by the way, could be as fictitious as
Mr Newbie?), I was expecting a far more superior a rejoinder than this.

We may as well let the matter rest; you have your rhetoric (Which you
are convinced is logic and fact) and I have my view. So let us go about
our business, and continue to feel comfortable with our assumptions, as
I can see we are not likely to make common ground anytime soon.

Further dialog is only likely to elevate your resentment of me to an
even higher level.

With Best Regards

The Inimitable Mr Newbie !

AKA( Mr Anon )


;-D





"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:es**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
Do you program with that logic?

> Your rhetoric is exhaustive; you must feel passionate about the
> subject.

There is a distinct difference between rhetoric and logic/fact. There
is nothing rhetorical in what I wrote. I feel passionate about
programming, and about people who want to better themselves at
programming. Programming is an admirable profession, and wanting to
better one's self is an admirable goal. Your reply is quite long as
well. What exactly floats *your* boat? Bitterness and anger?

> The fact that one 'strives' to pass an exam by using study
> preparations by definition means that one must 'learn' or assures ones
> learning during the course of such preparation.

I believe I logically pointed out the difference in quality between
knowing a lot and knowing how to find out what one needs to know when
one needs to know it. I also pointed out that problem-solving is much
more valuable than a volume of knowledge, in the programming biz. While
you may disagree, perhaps you might like to support your argument with
some fact and/or logic. Otherwise, you are simply exhaling noisily.

> I have never said that the exam certificate is a predicate to being
> thought of as professional or to be seen as able in the science of
> producing well written software, but nevertheless, one cannot be
> harmed from having gone through the process.

I don't believe I suggested anything with regards to what you may or
may not have said. I care nothing for how I am thought of, except by
those to whom I am accountable, for example, my wife, my boss, and God.
And I never mentioned anything about the value of being thought highly
of by anyone. You are imagining things.

> I propose that it is better to have achieved the certificates than
> not, and whilst you personally may be more proficient than those who
> have them, I think to look down on those who have run the gauntlet of
> the challenge, would be rather snobbish to say the least and down
> right arrogant to say the most.

Again, I did not imply that I "look down on" anyone. You are reading
things into my message that I did not say. My criticism was with
regards to the efficacy of certification exams, and with the usefulness
of taking and/or passing them.

> I'm pleased that you feel able to wear colours which demonstrate your
> wit, courage, determination and heroism earned in fighting the bloody,
> savage and brutalistic struggles seen in countless project
> battlegrounds in the IT Amphitheatre.

Another mistaken mis-interpretation. My point was that I speak from
experience, and I provided evidence from my own experience to make the
argument. A proposition of an idea without some evidence to justify the
idea is nothing more than exhaling noisily. I try to avoid that. There
are enough opinions floating around this planet to cause global
warming. If you write programs with that many assumptions, they must
surely be unstable.

> Have a thought for those lesser mortals who are so much less able than
> yourself, and who aspire to your elevated position, but don't have
> twelve years or so to spend on the gut wrenching ardours of coding
> skirmishes to be considered worthy to wear your colours, and have to
> simply settle at this point for going through Microsoft's own
> certification system.

You've got issues, Mac, "Mr. Newbie," or should I say "Mr. Safely
Anonymous." What are you afraid of? It is easy enough to take potshots
at people from behind the safety of anonymity. And just as cowardly.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
A watched clock never boils.

"Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
news:Oi**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
> Your rhetoric is exhaustive; you must feel passionate about the
> subject. Whilst I see the intellectual merit of some of your points,
> your argument completely fails to address my point.
>
> To say that the Microsoft Certification Process is 'meaningless' is
> simply 'Incorrect'
>
> The fact that one 'strives' to pass an exam by using study
> preparations by definition means that one must 'learn' or assures ones
> learning during the course of such preparation. The only exception
> would be when one has already achieved such knowledge prior to the
> exam by other means, in which case the only reason to have taken it
> would have either been to prove to a third party or oneself that one
> has achieved this badge of merit.
>
> I have never said that the exam certificate is a predicate to being
> thought of as professional or to be seen as able in the science of
> producing well written software, but nevertheless, one cannot be
> harmed from having gone through the process.
>
> I propose that it is better to have achieved the certificates than
> not, and whilst you personally may be more proficient than those who
> have them, I think to look down on those who have run the gauntlet of
> the challenge, would be rather snobbish to say the least and down
> right arrogant to say the most.
>
> I'm pleased that you feel able to wear colours which demonstrate your
> wit, courage, determination and heroism earned in fighting the bloody,
> savage and brutalistic struggles seen in countless project
> battlegrounds in the IT Amphitheatre.
>
> Have a thought for those lesser mortals who are so much less able than
> yourself, and who aspire to your elevated position, but don't have
> twelve years or so to spend on the gut wrenching ardours of coding
> skirmishes to be considered worthy to wear your colours, and have to
> simply settle at this point for going through Microsoft's own
> certification system.
>
>
> HTH
>
>
>
>
> "Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
> news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
>> Until now at least, the certification process has been meaningless.
>> The development world is hideously complex, and even knowing the
>> answers to all of the questions in an exam doesn't prepare one for
>> the experience of real-world development. Only the experience itself
>> does. In other words, using a carpenter as an analogy, there is a
>> difference between knowing what all of one's tools are, how they
>> work, what they are used for, and how to read a blueprint, and
>> knowing how to build houses.
>>
>> All development projects are different, and present different and
>> unique challenges to the developer. In my experiences, Murphy is a
>> constant companion. I am constantly barraged by new situations,
>> requirements that exceed my skill set, problems I have never
>> encountered before, and I've been programming for a dozen years.
>>
>> A certification exam can measure certain things, and is useful for
>> measuring those things, and those things only. Among the most
>> critical skills required by any developer are problem-solving skill,
>> logic, creative thinking, anal attention to detail, a measure of
>> healthy paranoia, and dogged persistence. Until now, I have not seen
>> certification exams which are able to measure most of these things. I
>> have not seen certification exams which do measure the ones which can
>> be measured (such as problem-solving and logic).
>>
>> It is not very important to know a lot. After all, "a lot" is a
>> non-specific quantity. Without a frame of reference, it is
>> meaningless. It is *critically* important to be able to find out a
>> lot, and to be able to do so quickly. I'd love to see an exam which
>> involved playing "20 questions." THAT would be a good measurement
>> criteria!
>>
>> The best developers I have known and worked with most often had
>> little or no formal training, and either had not taken any
>> certification exams, or had taken them as a requirement of their job,
>> and for no other reason. Programming is a high-salary job. Many
>> people are going to want to make the kind of money that can be made
>> doing it. Among them, only a select few are "born programmers" or
>> have the self-discipline and persistence to acquire these skills and
>> qualities.
>>
>> Most people don't realize it, but it requires less work over a
>> lifetime to become a Doctor. While there is a period of some years
>> during which an aspiring Doctor has to work his/her proverbial butt
>> off, after that, it is fairly easy to keep up with the advances in
>> the trade. Most Doctors are specialists of one sort or another, and
>> only need to keep up with a limited set of knowledge. They have
>> nurses and other lower-paid medical technicians to do most of their
>> work for them. And the human body isn't re-designed every 5 or 10
>> years.
>>
>> As for me, and others like me (you know who you are), I spend as much
>> time studying as I do developing. And I feel like I can never manage
>> to keep up, even though I do, by comparison, overall. Fortunately for
>> me, I love to learn. I love a challenge. I can endure almost any
>> stress except for boredom. Math, Logic, and Science are the greatest
>> loves of my life, with the (possible) exception of my wife. ;-)
>>
>> But how many people who aspire to make the big bucks have similar
>> traits? Many aspiring developers are people who saw an ad for "Some
>> Technical Institute" on tv, and bought into the hype. They are in it
>> for the money. There are as many hack developers out there as there
>> are hack car mechanics, hack politicians, and hack lawyers. Some of
>> these are very good at passing certification exams.
>>
>> I have never taken one. Why?
>>
>> 1. I have never needed to. I have always acquired work by virtue of
>> my accomplishments (A good portfolio is worth a thousand
>> certificates).
>> 2. I have never been required to by a job that I've held.
>> 3. I have been too busy studying and performing to take the time for
>> an exam.
>> 4. Taking the above into consideration, I have never wanted to take
>> one "for fun." Taking an exam is not my idea of fun. The real exam is
>> my everyday life.
>>
>> Anyway, that's my story and I'm stickin' with it!
>>
>> --
>> HTH,
>>
>> Kevin Spencer
>> Microsoft MVP
>> .Net Developer
>> A watched clock never boils.
>>
>> "Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
>> news:e2**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
>>>I think that not withstanding the colourfull language used, she has a
>>>point !
>>>
>>> For someone who has had no real experience with the technology it
>>> would be impossible to pass the exam cold. Therefore to at least
>>> work through the MS or other preperation material has merit in terms
>>> of study time applied and the will and focus to actually schedule
>>> and realize the exam iteself.
>>>
>>> Therfore I beleive in the merit of this process, however I take your
>>> points regarding the potential for the results to skew the
>>> underlying aptitude.
>>>
>>> For someone who already knows the technology, of course the exams
>>> would probably be fairly mechanical, especially for someone like
>>> yourself who is obviously an experienced person in this field.
>>>
>>> I hope that I do make the grade and go on to better things. I view
>>> it as a stepping stone.
>>>
>>> And thanks for all the replies to my post.
>>>
>>> Thanks Again .. Mr Newbie
>>>
>>>
>>> "Guadala Harry" <GM**@BeansAndTacos.org> wrote in message
>>> news:Oz**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>>>> Your post is confusing. I'm a developer who has passed 13 of these
>>>> tests and I'm sure you read my post explaining the lack of
>>>> objective meaning... and then you make your sweeping statement???
>>>>
>>>> Also, please don't post profanity here. Unlike the SQL Programming
>>>> NG and others, this one is fairly civil. We'd like to keep it that
>>>> way.
>>>>
>>>> -GH
>>>>
>>>> "Tina" <ti**********@nospammeexcite.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:ex**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>>>>> My experience is that developers who say these test mean nothing
>>>>> are afraid to take them or maybe not up to the effort to study for
>>>>> them. Just because you pass the bar does not mean you are an
>>>>> excellent lawyer but it is evidence that you are not some dumb
>>>>> shit.
>>>>>
>>>>> T :)
>>>>>
>>>>> "Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:uU*************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>>>>>> Im going to be looking to do this exam fairly soon, but ive done
>>>>>> a couple of practice tests and found them to be a bit tricky in
>>>>>> as much as you have to REALLY READ the questions carefully else
>>>>>> they trip you up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When you have four multi choice and each one has 8 lines of code,
>>>>>> its like looking at those damn near identicle picture and
>>>>>> spotting the difference. Its almost as if they expect you to have
>>>>>> an on line help in your head !!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How did others get on with it ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers Mr N
>>>>>>
>>>>>> PS: Im going to hook up my positronic relay to a Sub Dermal Borg
>>>>>> Neural Node Interlink transmitter and connect to the billion tera
>>>>>> quads of help provided with VS2003, this should help. If not I'm
>>>>>> going to re-route all emergency power to my cebral cortex and
>>>>>> blow my friggin head off!!!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> :))
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>



Nov 19 '05 #28

P: n/a
Congratulations on a well written reply.

I have only one point to take you up on. I do not confuse "rhetoric" with
logic or fact. Perhaps I could have phrased it more accurately than I did,
which lead to the confusion over my meaning. I will take more care next time
in order to avoid any confusion.

In any case, we seem to have reached a plateau of normality now, so I feel
we can move on and leave this well reasoned debate behind.
Regards - Mr. Newbie


"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:eL*************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
When you get to know me a little better from newsgroups palaver or more
useful conversation, you will find I bear no malice nor make it my
business to attack personally with the same, nor corporately, as this
rarely bears any fruit on the tree of assistance.


I'm glad to hear that. Perhaps I misread some of your rhetorical
characterizations. In any case, I'll take you at your word. At least you
seem to be able to deal with dispute in an emotionally-healthy manner.
That I respect.

As for the definition of "rhetoric," you still seem to miss the difference
(albeit subtle) between rhetoric and logic, or logical argument. Logic is
not an attempt to please or persuade. It is a means of resolving a
problem, of ascertaining as closely as possible the truth about an issue.
To employ logic in an argument is therefore not the same as to employ
rhetoric. Logic does not persuade. You cannot persuade 1 to be 0, nor true
to be false. In other words, rhetoric persuades, while logic dictates.

I am not interested in persuasion. That is best left to politicians and
salesmen. I am interested in truth, in fact, and in the logical ways and
means of deriving truth and fact, the only ideas that are useful for the
accomplishment of any purpose, particularly with regards to programming,
which is purely mathematical and logical, but also to the accomplishment
of (theoretically) anything whatsoever. In any case, my passion is the
search for truth.

I am here to help. Help with regards to these forums comes through
knowledge. Knowledge comes not by persuasion, but by logic and fact. When
fact is not known, it can often be derived by logic. However, as not all
facts are known, what seems to be factual logically may turn out to be
false, when more facts are brought to light.

Therefore, when I make an argument regarding an idea, I try to employ
logic with the same discipline that I apply to programming. I must admit,
however, that it is often *regarded* as rhetoric, and taken as a challenge
to the individual, rather than to an idea. This often leads to a reaction
against me, as if I owned the idea that I made an argument for. I may hold
an idea; I may defend and idea; but it will never belong to me. If a
person can logically refute the idea, I am just as quick to abandon it.
After all, I only have a limited life span in which to solve the riddles
of life.

Conversely, when I challenge an idea, I am not challenging the individual
who promotes the idea, as if the idea were a reflection of that person.
However, this is quite often misunderstood in much the same way.

Rhetorical persuasion, however, does nothing to clarify an issue, nor to
solve a problem. It confuses issues, as it masquerades as information,
although it is not. It is manipulation disguised as information.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
A watched clock never boils.

"Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
news:uL*************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
Mr Spencer,

Definitions of rhetoric on the Web:

a.. using language effectively to please or persuade
b.. grandiosity: high-flown style; excessive use of verbal
ornamentation; "the grandiosity of his prose"; "an excessive ornateness
of language"
c.. palaver: loud and confused and empty talk; "mere rhetoric"
d.. study of the technique and rules for using language effectively
(especially in public speaking)
You will note that the 'rhetoric' has more than one definition in the
popular language usage. The one I refer to was the one at the top. Or
more plainly put for your simpler tastes.

"Your attempt at producing a cogent and compelling argument".

Still, your reply did have me laughing with a degree of gusto. When you
get to know me a little better from newsgroups palaver or more useful
conversation, you will find I bear no malice nor make it my business to
attack personally with the same, nor corporately, as this rarely bears
any fruit on the tree of assistance.

Regards Mr Newbie..


"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:et*************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
If you want to impress people with your flowery language, you might want
to look up the word "rhetoric" in the dictionary before you go flouncing
it around again, unless you are satisfied with your own subjectively
elevated perception of your erudition, and wish to continue remain
ignorant of reality. An abundance of multi-syllabic 19th-century
Louisiana aristocratic dialect doesn't compensate for ignorance of the
meaning of words.

And, in the future, should you disagree with me, by all means, present
your arguments against my assertions, but leave out the personal
attacks. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
A watched clock never boils.

"Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
news:uF**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
Oh, come now Mr Spencer ! (Which by the way, could be as fictitious as
Mr Newbie?), I was expecting a far more superior a rejoinder than this.

We may as well let the matter rest; you have your rhetoric (Which you
are convinced is logic and fact) and I have my view. So let us go about
our business, and continue to feel comfortable with our assumptions, as
I can see we are not likely to make common ground anytime soon.

Further dialog is only likely to elevate your resentment of me to an
even higher level.

With Best Regards

The Inimitable Mr Newbie !

AKA( Mr Anon )


;-D





"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:es**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> Do you program with that logic?
>
>> Your rhetoric is exhaustive; you must feel passionate about the
>> subject.
>
> There is a distinct difference between rhetoric and logic/fact. There
> is nothing rhetorical in what I wrote. I feel passionate about
> programming, and about people who want to better themselves at
> programming. Programming is an admirable profession, and wanting to
> better one's self is an admirable goal. Your reply is quite long as
> well. What exactly floats *your* boat? Bitterness and anger?
>
>> The fact that one 'strives' to pass an exam by using study
>> preparations by definition means that one must 'learn' or assures
>> ones learning during the course of such preparation.
>
> I believe I logically pointed out the difference in quality between
> knowing a lot and knowing how to find out what one needs to know when
> one needs to know it. I also pointed out that problem-solving is much
> more valuable than a volume of knowledge, in the programming biz.
> While you may disagree, perhaps you might like to support your
> argument with some fact and/or logic. Otherwise, you are simply
> exhaling noisily.
>
>> I have never said that the exam certificate is a predicate to being
>> thought of as professional or to be seen as able in the science of
>> producing well written software, but nevertheless, one cannot be
>> harmed from having gone through the process.
>
> I don't believe I suggested anything with regards to what you may or
> may not have said. I care nothing for how I am thought of, except by
> those to whom I am accountable, for example, my wife, my boss, and
> God. And I never mentioned anything about the value of being thought
> highly of by anyone. You are imagining things.
>
>> I propose that it is better to have achieved the certificates than
>> not, and whilst you personally may be more proficient than those who
>> have them, I think to look down on those who have run the gauntlet of
>> the challenge, would be rather snobbish to say the least and down
>> right arrogant to say the most.
>
> Again, I did not imply that I "look down on" anyone. You are reading
> things into my message that I did not say. My criticism was with
> regards to the efficacy of certification exams, and with the
> usefulness of taking and/or passing them.
>
>> I'm pleased that you feel able to wear colours which demonstrate your
>> wit, courage, determination and heroism earned in fighting the
>> bloody, savage and brutalistic struggles seen in countless project
>> battlegrounds in the IT Amphitheatre.
>
> Another mistaken mis-interpretation. My point was that I speak from
> experience, and I provided evidence from my own experience to make the
> argument. A proposition of an idea without some evidence to justify
> the idea is nothing more than exhaling noisily. I try to avoid that.
> There are enough opinions floating around this planet to cause global
> warming. If you write programs with that many assumptions, they must
> surely be unstable.
>
>> Have a thought for those lesser mortals who are so much less able
>> than yourself, and who aspire to your elevated position, but don't
>> have twelve years or so to spend on the gut wrenching ardours of
>> coding skirmishes to be considered worthy to wear your colours, and
>> have to simply settle at this point for going through Microsoft's own
>> certification system.
>
> You've got issues, Mac, "Mr. Newbie," or should I say "Mr. Safely
> Anonymous." What are you afraid of? It is easy enough to take potshots
> at people from behind the safety of anonymity. And just as cowardly.
>
> --
> HTH,
>
> Kevin Spencer
> Microsoft MVP
> .Net Developer
> A watched clock never boils.
>
> "Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
> news:Oi**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
>> Your rhetoric is exhaustive; you must feel passionate about the
>> subject. Whilst I see the intellectual merit of some of your points,
>> your argument completely fails to address my point.
>>
>> To say that the Microsoft Certification Process is 'meaningless' is
>> simply 'Incorrect'
>>
>> The fact that one 'strives' to pass an exam by using study
>> preparations by definition means that one must 'learn' or assures
>> ones learning during the course of such preparation. The only
>> exception would be when one has already achieved such knowledge prior
>> to the exam by other means, in which case the only reason to have
>> taken it would have either been to prove to a third party or oneself
>> that one has achieved this badge of merit.
>>
>> I have never said that the exam certificate is a predicate to being
>> thought of as professional or to be seen as able in the science of
>> producing well written software, but nevertheless, one cannot be
>> harmed from having gone through the process.
>>
>> I propose that it is better to have achieved the certificates than
>> not, and whilst you personally may be more proficient than those who
>> have them, I think to look down on those who have run the gauntlet of
>> the challenge, would be rather snobbish to say the least and down
>> right arrogant to say the most.
>>
>> I'm pleased that you feel able to wear colours which demonstrate your
>> wit, courage, determination and heroism earned in fighting the
>> bloody, savage and brutalistic struggles seen in countless project
>> battlegrounds in the IT Amphitheatre.
>>
>> Have a thought for those lesser mortals who are so much less able
>> than yourself, and who aspire to your elevated position, but don't
>> have twelve years or so to spend on the gut wrenching ardours of
>> coding skirmishes to be considered worthy to wear your colours, and
>> have to simply settle at this point for going through Microsoft's own
>> certification system.
>>
>>
>> HTH
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
>> news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
>>> Until now at least, the certification process has been meaningless.
>>> The development world is hideously complex, and even knowing the
>>> answers to all of the questions in an exam doesn't prepare one for
>>> the experience of real-world development. Only the experience itself
>>> does. In other words, using a carpenter as an analogy, there is a
>>> difference between knowing what all of one's tools are, how they
>>> work, what they are used for, and how to read a blueprint, and
>>> knowing how to build houses.
>>>
>>> All development projects are different, and present different and
>>> unique challenges to the developer. In my experiences, Murphy is a
>>> constant companion. I am constantly barraged by new situations,
>>> requirements that exceed my skill set, problems I have never
>>> encountered before, and I've been programming for a dozen years.
>>>
>>> A certification exam can measure certain things, and is useful for
>>> measuring those things, and those things only. Among the most
>>> critical skills required by any developer are problem-solving skill,
>>> logic, creative thinking, anal attention to detail, a measure of
>>> healthy paranoia, and dogged persistence. Until now, I have not seen
>>> certification exams which are able to measure most of these things.
>>> I have not seen certification exams which do measure the ones which
>>> can be measured (such as problem-solving and logic).
>>>
>>> It is not very important to know a lot. After all, "a lot" is a
>>> non-specific quantity. Without a frame of reference, it is
>>> meaningless. It is *critically* important to be able to find out a
>>> lot, and to be able to do so quickly. I'd love to see an exam which
>>> involved playing "20 questions." THAT would be a good measurement
>>> criteria!
>>>
>>> The best developers I have known and worked with most often had
>>> little or no formal training, and either had not taken any
>>> certification exams, or had taken them as a requirement of their
>>> job, and for no other reason. Programming is a high-salary job. Many
>>> people are going to want to make the kind of money that can be made
>>> doing it. Among them, only a select few are "born programmers" or
>>> have the self-discipline and persistence to acquire these skills and
>>> qualities.
>>>
>>> Most people don't realize it, but it requires less work over a
>>> lifetime to become a Doctor. While there is a period of some years
>>> during which an aspiring Doctor has to work his/her proverbial butt
>>> off, after that, it is fairly easy to keep up with the advances in
>>> the trade. Most Doctors are specialists of one sort or another, and
>>> only need to keep up with a limited set of knowledge. They have
>>> nurses and other lower-paid medical technicians to do most of their
>>> work for them. And the human body isn't re-designed every 5 or 10
>>> years.
>>>
>>> As for me, and others like me (you know who you are), I spend as
>>> much time studying as I do developing. And I feel like I can never
>>> manage to keep up, even though I do, by comparison, overall.
>>> Fortunately for me, I love to learn. I love a challenge. I can
>>> endure almost any stress except for boredom. Math, Logic, and
>>> Science are the greatest loves of my life, with the (possible)
>>> exception of my wife. ;-)
>>>
>>> But how many people who aspire to make the big bucks have similar
>>> traits? Many aspiring developers are people who saw an ad for "Some
>>> Technical Institute" on tv, and bought into the hype. They are in it
>>> for the money. There are as many hack developers out there as there
>>> are hack car mechanics, hack politicians, and hack lawyers. Some of
>>> these are very good at passing certification exams.
>>>
>>> I have never taken one. Why?
>>>
>>> 1. I have never needed to. I have always acquired work by virtue of
>>> my accomplishments (A good portfolio is worth a thousand
>>> certificates).
>>> 2. I have never been required to by a job that I've held.
>>> 3. I have been too busy studying and performing to take the time for
>>> an exam.
>>> 4. Taking the above into consideration, I have never wanted to take
>>> one "for fun." Taking an exam is not my idea of fun. The real exam
>>> is my everyday life.
>>>
>>> Anyway, that's my story and I'm stickin' with it!
>>>
>>> --
>>> HTH,
>>>
>>> Kevin Spencer
>>> Microsoft MVP
>>> .Net Developer
>>> A watched clock never boils.
>>>
>>> "Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
>>> news:e2**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
>>>>I think that not withstanding the colourfull language used, she has
>>>>a point !
>>>>
>>>> For someone who has had no real experience with the technology it
>>>> would be impossible to pass the exam cold. Therefore to at least
>>>> work through the MS or other preperation material has merit in
>>>> terms of study time applied and the will and focus to actually
>>>> schedule and realize the exam iteself.
>>>>
>>>> Therfore I beleive in the merit of this process, however I take
>>>> your points regarding the potential for the results to skew the
>>>> underlying aptitude.
>>>>
>>>> For someone who already knows the technology, of course the exams
>>>> would probably be fairly mechanical, especially for someone like
>>>> yourself who is obviously an experienced person in this field.
>>>>
>>>> I hope that I do make the grade and go on to better things. I view
>>>> it as a stepping stone.
>>>>
>>>> And thanks for all the replies to my post.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks Again .. Mr Newbie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Guadala Harry" <GM**@BeansAndTacos.org> wrote in message
>>>> news:Oz**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>>>>> Your post is confusing. I'm a developer who has passed 13 of these
>>>>> tests and I'm sure you read my post explaining the lack of
>>>>> objective meaning... and then you make your sweeping statement???
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, please don't post profanity here. Unlike the SQL Programming
>>>>> NG and others, this one is fairly civil. We'd like to keep it that
>>>>> way.
>>>>>
>>>>> -GH
>>>>>
>>>>> "Tina" <ti**********@nospammeexcite.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:ex**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>>>>>> My experience is that developers who say these test mean nothing
>>>>>> are afraid to take them or maybe not up to the effort to study
>>>>>> for them. Just because you pass the bar does not mean you are an
>>>>>> excellent lawyer but it is evidence that you are not some dumb
>>>>>> shit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> T :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:uU*************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>> Im going to be looking to do this exam fairly soon, but ive done
>>>>>>> a couple of practice tests and found them to be a bit tricky in
>>>>>>> as much as you have to REALLY READ the questions carefully else
>>>>>>> they trip you up.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When you have four multi choice and each one has 8 lines of
>>>>>>> code, its like looking at those damn near identicle picture and
>>>>>>> spotting the difference. Its almost as if they expect you to
>>>>>>> have an on line help in your head !!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How did others get on with it ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers Mr N
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> PS: Im going to hook up my positronic relay to a Sub Dermal
>>>>>>> Borg Neural Node Interlink transmitter and connect to the
>>>>>>> billion tera quads of help provided with VS2003, this should
>>>>>>> help. If not I'm going to re-route all emergency power to my
>>>>>>> cebral cortex and blow my friggin head off!!!!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> :))
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>



Nov 19 '05 #29

P: n/a
:-D

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
A watched clock never boils.

"Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
news:eb**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
Congratulations on a well written reply.

I have only one point to take you up on. I do not confuse "rhetoric" with
logic or fact. Perhaps I could have phrased it more accurately than I did,
which lead to the confusion over my meaning. I will take more care next
time in order to avoid any confusion.

In any case, we seem to have reached a plateau of normality now, so I feel
we can move on and leave this well reasoned debate behind.
Regards - Mr. Newbie


"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:eL*************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
When you get to know me a little better from newsgroups palaver or more
useful conversation, you will find I bear no malice nor make it my
business to attack personally with the same, nor corporately, as this
rarely bears any fruit on the tree of assistance.


I'm glad to hear that. Perhaps I misread some of your rhetorical
characterizations. In any case, I'll take you at your word. At least you
seem to be able to deal with dispute in an emotionally-healthy manner.
That I respect.

As for the definition of "rhetoric," you still seem to miss the
difference (albeit subtle) between rhetoric and logic, or logical
argument. Logic is not an attempt to please or persuade. It is a means of
resolving a problem, of ascertaining as closely as possible the truth
about an issue. To employ logic in an argument is therefore not the same
as to employ rhetoric. Logic does not persuade. You cannot persuade 1 to
be 0, nor true to be false. In other words, rhetoric persuades, while
logic dictates.

I am not interested in persuasion. That is best left to politicians and
salesmen. I am interested in truth, in fact, and in the logical ways and
means of deriving truth and fact, the only ideas that are useful for the
accomplishment of any purpose, particularly with regards to programming,
which is purely mathematical and logical, but also to the accomplishment
of (theoretically) anything whatsoever. In any case, my passion is the
search for truth.

I am here to help. Help with regards to these forums comes through
knowledge. Knowledge comes not by persuasion, but by logic and fact. When
fact is not known, it can often be derived by logic. However, as not all
facts are known, what seems to be factual logically may turn out to be
false, when more facts are brought to light.

Therefore, when I make an argument regarding an idea, I try to employ
logic with the same discipline that I apply to programming. I must admit,
however, that it is often *regarded* as rhetoric, and taken as a
challenge to the individual, rather than to an idea. This often leads to
a reaction against me, as if I owned the idea that I made an argument
for. I may hold an idea; I may defend and idea; but it will never belong
to me. If a person can logically refute the idea, I am just as quick to
abandon it. After all, I only have a limited life span in which to solve
the riddles of life.

Conversely, when I challenge an idea, I am not challenging the individual
who promotes the idea, as if the idea were a reflection of that person.
However, this is quite often misunderstood in much the same way.

Rhetorical persuasion, however, does nothing to clarify an issue, nor to
solve a problem. It confuses issues, as it masquerades as information,
although it is not. It is manipulation disguised as information.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
A watched clock never boils.

"Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
news:uL*************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
Mr Spencer,

Definitions of rhetoric on the Web:

a.. using language effectively to please or persuade
b.. grandiosity: high-flown style; excessive use of verbal
ornamentation; "the grandiosity of his prose"; "an excessive ornateness
of language"
c.. palaver: loud and confused and empty talk; "mere rhetoric"
d.. study of the technique and rules for using language effectively
(especially in public speaking)
You will note that the 'rhetoric' has more than one definition in the
popular language usage. The one I refer to was the one at the top. Or
more plainly put for your simpler tastes.

"Your attempt at producing a cogent and compelling argument".

Still, your reply did have me laughing with a degree of gusto. When you
get to know me a little better from newsgroups palaver or more useful
conversation, you will find I bear no malice nor make it my business to
attack personally with the same, nor corporately, as this rarely bears
any fruit on the tree of assistance.

Regards Mr Newbie..


"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:et*************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...

If you want to impress people with your flowery language, you might
want to look up the word "rhetoric" in the dictionary before you go
flouncing it around again, unless you are satisfied with your own
subjectively elevated perception of your erudition, and wish to
continue remain ignorant of reality. An abundance of multi-syllabic
19th-century Louisiana aristocratic dialect doesn't compensate for
ignorance of the meaning of words.

And, in the future, should you disagree with me, by all means, present
your arguments against my assertions, but leave out the personal
attacks. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
A watched clock never boils.

"Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
news:uF**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> Oh, come now Mr Spencer ! (Which by the way, could be as fictitious as
> Mr Newbie?), I was expecting a far more superior a rejoinder than
> this.
>
>
>
> We may as well let the matter rest; you have your rhetoric (Which you
> are convinced is logic and fact) and I have my view. So let us go
> about our business, and continue to feel comfortable with our
> assumptions, as I can see we are not likely to make common ground
> anytime soon.
>
>
>
> Further dialog is only likely to elevate your resentment of me to an
> even higher level.
>
>
>
> With Best Regards
>
>
>
> The Inimitable Mr Newbie !
>
> AKA( Mr Anon )
>
>
>
>
> ;-D
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
> news:es**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
>> Do you program with that logic?
>>
>>> Your rhetoric is exhaustive; you must feel passionate about the
>>> subject.
>>
>> There is a distinct difference between rhetoric and logic/fact. There
>> is nothing rhetorical in what I wrote. I feel passionate about
>> programming, and about people who want to better themselves at
>> programming. Programming is an admirable profession, and wanting to
>> better one's self is an admirable goal. Your reply is quite long as
>> well. What exactly floats *your* boat? Bitterness and anger?
>>
>>> The fact that one 'strives' to pass an exam by using study
>>> preparations by definition means that one must 'learn' or assures
>>> ones learning during the course of such preparation.
>>
>> I believe I logically pointed out the difference in quality between
>> knowing a lot and knowing how to find out what one needs to know when
>> one needs to know it. I also pointed out that problem-solving is much
>> more valuable than a volume of knowledge, in the programming biz.
>> While you may disagree, perhaps you might like to support your
>> argument with some fact and/or logic. Otherwise, you are simply
>> exhaling noisily.
>>
>>> I have never said that the exam certificate is a predicate to being
>>> thought of as professional or to be seen as able in the science of
>>> producing well written software, but nevertheless, one cannot be
>>> harmed from having gone through the process.
>>
>> I don't believe I suggested anything with regards to what you may or
>> may not have said. I care nothing for how I am thought of, except by
>> those to whom I am accountable, for example, my wife, my boss, and
>> God. And I never mentioned anything about the value of being thought
>> highly of by anyone. You are imagining things.
>>
>>> I propose that it is better to have achieved the certificates than
>>> not, and whilst you personally may be more proficient than those who
>>> have them, I think to look down on those who have run the gauntlet
>>> of the challenge, would be rather snobbish to say the least and down
>>> right arrogant to say the most.
>>
>> Again, I did not imply that I "look down on" anyone. You are reading
>> things into my message that I did not say. My criticism was with
>> regards to the efficacy of certification exams, and with the
>> usefulness of taking and/or passing them.
>>
>>> I'm pleased that you feel able to wear colours which demonstrate
>>> your wit, courage, determination and heroism earned in fighting the
>>> bloody, savage and brutalistic struggles seen in countless project
>>> battlegrounds in the IT Amphitheatre.
>>
>> Another mistaken mis-interpretation. My point was that I speak from
>> experience, and I provided evidence from my own experience to make
>> the argument. A proposition of an idea without some evidence to
>> justify the idea is nothing more than exhaling noisily. I try to
>> avoid that. There are enough opinions floating around this planet to
>> cause global warming. If you write programs with that many
>> assumptions, they must surely be unstable.
>>
>>> Have a thought for those lesser mortals who are so much less able
>>> than yourself, and who aspire to your elevated position, but don't
>>> have twelve years or so to spend on the gut wrenching ardours of
>>> coding skirmishes to be considered worthy to wear your colours, and
>>> have to simply settle at this point for going through Microsoft's
>>> own certification system.
>>
>> You've got issues, Mac, "Mr. Newbie," or should I say "Mr. Safely
>> Anonymous." What are you afraid of? It is easy enough to take
>> potshots at people from behind the safety of anonymity. And just as
>> cowardly.
>>
>> --
>> HTH,
>>
>> Kevin Spencer
>> Microsoft MVP
>> .Net Developer
>> A watched clock never boils.
>>
>> "Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
>> news:Oi**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
>>> Your rhetoric is exhaustive; you must feel passionate about the
>>> subject. Whilst I see the intellectual merit of some of your points,
>>> your argument completely fails to address my point.
>>>
>>> To say that the Microsoft Certification Process is 'meaningless' is
>>> simply 'Incorrect'
>>>
>>> The fact that one 'strives' to pass an exam by using study
>>> preparations by definition means that one must 'learn' or assures
>>> ones learning during the course of such preparation. The only
>>> exception would be when one has already achieved such knowledge
>>> prior to the exam by other means, in which case the only reason to
>>> have taken it would have either been to prove to a third party or
>>> oneself that one has achieved this badge of merit.
>>>
>>> I have never said that the exam certificate is a predicate to being
>>> thought of as professional or to be seen as able in the science of
>>> producing well written software, but nevertheless, one cannot be
>>> harmed from having gone through the process.
>>>
>>> I propose that it is better to have achieved the certificates than
>>> not, and whilst you personally may be more proficient than those who
>>> have them, I think to look down on those who have run the gauntlet
>>> of the challenge, would be rather snobbish to say the least and down
>>> right arrogant to say the most.
>>>
>>> I'm pleased that you feel able to wear colours which demonstrate
>>> your wit, courage, determination and heroism earned in fighting the
>>> bloody, savage and brutalistic struggles seen in countless project
>>> battlegrounds in the IT Amphitheatre.
>>>
>>> Have a thought for those lesser mortals who are so much less able
>>> than yourself, and who aspire to your elevated position, but don't
>>> have twelve years or so to spend on the gut wrenching ardours of
>>> coding skirmishes to be considered worthy to wear your colours, and
>>> have to simply settle at this point for going through Microsoft's
>>> own certification system.
>>>
>>>
>>> HTH
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
>>> news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
>>>> Until now at least, the certification process has been meaningless.
>>>> The development world is hideously complex, and even knowing the
>>>> answers to all of the questions in an exam doesn't prepare one for
>>>> the experience of real-world development. Only the experience
>>>> itself does. In other words, using a carpenter as an analogy,
>>>> there is a difference between knowing what all of one's tools are,
>>>> how they work, what they are used for, and how to read a blueprint,
>>>> and knowing how to build houses.
>>>>
>>>> All development projects are different, and present different and
>>>> unique challenges to the developer. In my experiences, Murphy is a
>>>> constant companion. I am constantly barraged by new situations,
>>>> requirements that exceed my skill set, problems I have never
>>>> encountered before, and I've been programming for a dozen years.
>>>>
>>>> A certification exam can measure certain things, and is useful for
>>>> measuring those things, and those things only. Among the most
>>>> critical skills required by any developer are problem-solving
>>>> skill, logic, creative thinking, anal attention to detail, a
>>>> measure of healthy paranoia, and dogged persistence. Until now, I
>>>> have not seen certification exams which are able to measure most of
>>>> these things. I have not seen certification exams which do measure
>>>> the ones which can be measured (such as problem-solving and logic).
>>>>
>>>> It is not very important to know a lot. After all, "a lot" is a
>>>> non-specific quantity. Without a frame of reference, it is
>>>> meaningless. It is *critically* important to be able to find out a
>>>> lot, and to be able to do so quickly. I'd love to see an exam which
>>>> involved playing "20 questions." THAT would be a good measurement
>>>> criteria!
>>>>
>>>> The best developers I have known and worked with most often had
>>>> little or no formal training, and either had not taken any
>>>> certification exams, or had taken them as a requirement of their
>>>> job, and for no other reason. Programming is a high-salary job.
>>>> Many people are going to want to make the kind of money that can be
>>>> made doing it. Among them, only a select few are "born programmers"
>>>> or have the self-discipline and persistence to acquire these skills
>>>> and qualities.
>>>>
>>>> Most people don't realize it, but it requires less work over a
>>>> lifetime to become a Doctor. While there is a period of some years
>>>> during which an aspiring Doctor has to work his/her proverbial butt
>>>> off, after that, it is fairly easy to keep up with the advances in
>>>> the trade. Most Doctors are specialists of one sort or another, and
>>>> only need to keep up with a limited set of knowledge. They have
>>>> nurses and other lower-paid medical technicians to do most of their
>>>> work for them. And the human body isn't re-designed every 5 or 10
>>>> years.
>>>>
>>>> As for me, and others like me (you know who you are), I spend as
>>>> much time studying as I do developing. And I feel like I can never
>>>> manage to keep up, even though I do, by comparison, overall.
>>>> Fortunately for me, I love to learn. I love a challenge. I can
>>>> endure almost any stress except for boredom. Math, Logic, and
>>>> Science are the greatest loves of my life, with the (possible)
>>>> exception of my wife. ;-)
>>>>
>>>> But how many people who aspire to make the big bucks have similar
>>>> traits? Many aspiring developers are people who saw an ad for "Some
>>>> Technical Institute" on tv, and bought into the hype. They are in
>>>> it for the money. There are as many hack developers out there as
>>>> there are hack car mechanics, hack politicians, and hack lawyers.
>>>> Some of these are very good at passing certification exams.
>>>>
>>>> I have never taken one. Why?
>>>>
>>>> 1. I have never needed to. I have always acquired work by virtue of
>>>> my accomplishments (A good portfolio is worth a thousand
>>>> certificates).
>>>> 2. I have never been required to by a job that I've held.
>>>> 3. I have been too busy studying and performing to take the time
>>>> for an exam.
>>>> 4. Taking the above into consideration, I have never wanted to take
>>>> one "for fun." Taking an exam is not my idea of fun. The real exam
>>>> is my everyday life.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, that's my story and I'm stickin' with it!
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> HTH,
>>>>
>>>> Kevin Spencer
>>>> Microsoft MVP
>>>> .Net Developer
>>>> A watched clock never boils.
>>>>
>>>> "Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:e2**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
>>>>>I think that not withstanding the colourfull language used, she has
>>>>>a point !
>>>>>
>>>>> For someone who has had no real experience with the technology it
>>>>> would be impossible to pass the exam cold. Therefore to at least
>>>>> work through the MS or other preperation material has merit in
>>>>> terms of study time applied and the will and focus to actually
>>>>> schedule and realize the exam iteself.
>>>>>
>>>>> Therfore I beleive in the merit of this process, however I take
>>>>> your points regarding the potential for the results to skew the
>>>>> underlying aptitude.
>>>>>
>>>>> For someone who already knows the technology, of course the exams
>>>>> would probably be fairly mechanical, especially for someone like
>>>>> yourself who is obviously an experienced person in this field.
>>>>>
>>>>> I hope that I do make the grade and go on to better things. I view
>>>>> it as a stepping stone.
>>>>>
>>>>> And thanks for all the replies to my post.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks Again .. Mr Newbie
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Guadala Harry" <GM**@BeansAndTacos.org> wrote in message
>>>>> news:Oz**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>>>>>> Your post is confusing. I'm a developer who has passed 13 of
>>>>>> these tests and I'm sure you read my post explaining the lack of
>>>>>> objective meaning... and then you make your sweeping statement???
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, please don't post profanity here. Unlike the SQL
>>>>>> Programming NG and others, this one is fairly civil. We'd like to
>>>>>> keep it that way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -GH
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Tina" <ti**********@nospammeexcite.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:ex**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>> My experience is that developers who say these test mean nothing
>>>>>>> are afraid to take them or maybe not up to the effort to study
>>>>>>> for them. Just because you pass the bar does not mean you are an
>>>>>>> excellent lawyer but it is evidence that you are not some dumb
>>>>>>> shit.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> T :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Mr Newbie" <he**@now.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:uU*************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>> Im going to be looking to do this exam fairly soon, but ive
>>>>>>>> done a couple of practice tests and found them to be a bit
>>>>>>>> tricky in as much as you have to REALLY READ the questions
>>>>>>>> carefully else they trip you up.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When you have four multi choice and each one has 8 lines of
>>>>>>>> code, its like looking at those damn near identicle picture and
>>>>>>>> spotting the difference. Its almost as if they expect you to
>>>>>>>> have an on line help in your head !!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How did others get on with it ?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers Mr N
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> PS: Im going to hook up my positronic relay to a Sub Dermal
>>>>>>>> Borg Neural Node Interlink transmitter and connect to the
>>>>>>>> billion tera quads of help provided with VS2003, this should
>>>>>>>> help. If not I'm going to re-route all emergency power to my
>>>>>>>> cebral cortex and blow my friggin head off!!!!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> :))
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>



Nov 19 '05 #30

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