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REPOST: Guru Challenge

Can anyone give me any ideas on why VS.NET 2003 running on XP Pro. (P4's
with 1GB RAM) would take over 3 minutes to simply create a new ASP.NET Web
Application on http://localhost?

It seems that the IIS directory gets created right away, but it is not
configured as an application directory until several minutes go by.

Thanks,

Scott M.
Nov 19 '05
67 2531
Hi Bill,
MVP's, I'm really distressed by the fact that so often when I post
detailed
questions to various newsgroups my questions are ignored
I can only respond to this with one comment, Bill. ASP.Net is built on the
..Net platform, and employs every aspect of that platform. While I (and
others) study and research daily, I know that I at least have areas that I
am knowledgeable about and areas that I am not. As I want to be useful (and
constrained by time), I tend to skip questions that I am less knowledgable
about.

Most of us skip questions that are asked an answered on a daily basis as
well. This is not to imply that your questions fall into that category, but
simply a general explanation of why some questions are ignored. And along
the same lines as this, questions posted by people (again, not referring to
you!) who take no time to provide enough information or make their questions
clear, are often skipped.

Finally, there are a lot of questions posted here, and some just fall
through the cracks. I try to avoid the ones with many existing replies,
except for, in this case, a thread in which I am participating. But it does
happen that a question gets overlooked now and then.

If this happens to you, re-post a day later, and add "Repost:" to the title.
This often serves as a flag that an issue has been raised and not addressed,
at least as far as I'm concerned.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
Ambiguity has a certain quality to it.

"Bill" <Bi**@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:8C**********************************@microsof t.com... Two points, 1 for Scott & 1 for MVP's

Scott, you have a serious piece of corn cob stuck in your ass. How come
you're so grumpy? And BTW it's a "MOOT" point, not "MUTE" point.

MVP's, I'm really distressed by the fact that so often when I post
detailed
questions to various newsgroups my questions are ignored, and yet when
some
grumpy guy with cob stuck in his ass flames you, you spend the rest of the
day responding to him. How about spending more time with those of us who
respect your advice and less time with grumpy guys who have cob stuck in
their ass?

Bill

Nov 19 '05 #51
> I'm also distressed Bill, at how MVP's are so quick to rally around each
other under all most any circumstance, even when an MVP is wrong or when
someone points out any criticism of them.
Bill is not an MVP. And you seem to be alone in your opinion that Juan is
wrong and you are right. That ought to make you suspicious of your own
opinion.

In fact, regardless of whether or not Juan is wrong, the point that is being
made is that your attitude towards Juan is wrong. These are 2 separate
issues, and they are not exclusive of one another.

When one feels wronged, there are several alternative paths one can take. In
the case of being given wrong information, as you seem to feel you were
given by Juan, you may choose to ignore the information. In fact, in the
process of problem-solving, this is the logical thing to do. If information
comes to light that is irrelvant to the solution of a problem, it is a waste
of time to give it any consideration, or to point out the wrongness of it to
the one who offers it. Doing so does not lead to a solution of the problem.

As the person with the problem to solve, it is your responsibility to solve
your problem. It is not productive to argue with those who give you
information that does not lead to a solution of the problem.

From my observations, there was some mis-communication going on between you
and Juan regarding the issue. This is a common occurrance, as the only means
of communication on a public newsgroup is to post a message and wait for a
response. One does not have the convenience of being able to ask a spate of
questions back and forth in order to clarify terms, etc. I am fairly certain
that at some point both you and Juan misunderstood each other's
communications. As an impartial observer, it seems that you were both
sidetracked by a debate over these miscommunications. In any case, the
debate was not useful to the solution of your problem.

As a conjecture, it seems that both you and Juan are somewhat argumentative,
and the chemistry worked out badly. This is not a criticism of either of
you. I have been known (including by myself) to be somewhat argumentative as
well, and this is a common trait in people who enjoy participating in
discussions. It is sometimes useful, but must be constrained, or it can
easily lead to hurt feelings and relationship issues.

It is a fact that Juan was trying to help you out. That is an act of
kindness. He does, in fact, do quite a bit of work in his efforts to help
others, and this seems (at least to me) to afford him a good bit of slack
regarding whatever personality flaws he posesses (as do we all). In fact, as
we all do indeed posess personality flaws, it behooves us all to cut one
another a certain amount of slack.

One cannot correct the mistakes and personality flaws of others. Personality
flaws lead to decisions, and the only person who can make a correction
regarding one's decisions is one's self, by making future decisions
differently, or at least making a conscious effort to do so. Once made, a
decision cannot be unmade. It is in the past, which is inalterable.

In the context of solving a problem, it is even more useless to be
sidetracked by an observation of a poor decision on the part of another
person, as I have already explained. It is, however, appropriate to take
inventory of one's own decisions in the aftermath, and see if it is possible
to make some changes with regards to future similar situations, in the
effort to avoid possible similar such occurrences in the future.

In conclusion, how about cutting Juan some slack, cutting Bill some slack,
cutting MVPs some slack, and taking an inventory of your own decisions in
this situation, to see what you may do to prevent such a situation from
bogging you down in the future? Or, at least, how about putting all this out
of your mind so that you can relax?

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
Ambiguity has a certain quality to it.
"Scott M." <s-***@nospam.nospam> wrote in message
news:u6****************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl... I'm also distressed Bill, at how MVP's are so quick to rally around each
other under all most any circumstance, even when an MVP is wrong or when
someone points out any criticism of them.

I also find it interesting that everyone is telling me how I have flamed
Juan, yet I have not used any profanity or called anyone names. I've
simply stated the facts and indicated that Juan has been of no help. If
you folks can't take that then PLEASE do yourselves and me a favor and
just filter me out of your NG reader. There's no need for you to waste
your precious time on someone like that.

But by all means, read Bill's messages and "humbly" accept his criticism
because all he's doing is using profanity and slinging insults around.

PS - I really hope you never mis-type a word in a public communication
Bill (I know that you never have in your life, but just a hope for the
future). Because some smart-ass might want to try to publicly point out
your simple error and then tell you that you have a corn cob stuck in your
ass.
"Bill" <Bi**@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:8C**********************************@microsof t.com...
Two points, 1 for Scott & 1 for MVP's

Scott, you have a serious piece of corn cob stuck in your ass. How come
you're so grumpy? And BTW it's a "MOOT" point, not "MUTE" point.

MVP's, I'm really distressed by the fact that so often when I post
detailed
questions to various newsgroups my questions are ignored, and yet when
some
grumpy guy with cob stuck in his ass flames you, you spend the rest of
the
day responding to him. How about spending more time with those of us who
respect your advice and less time with grumpy guys who have cob stuck in
their ass?

Bill


Nov 19 '05 #52
A man in a hot air balloon realized he was lost. He reduced his altitude
and spotted a woman below. He descended a bit more and shouted:

"Excuse me, can you help me? I promised a friend I would meet him an hour
ago, but I don't know where I am."

The woman below replied, "You're in a hot air balloon hovering approximately
30 feet above the ground. You're between 40 and 45 degrees north latitude
and between 9 and 60 degrees west longitude."

"You must be in Information Technology," said the balloonist.
"I am," replied the woman, "How did you know?"

"Well," answered the balloonist, "everything you told me is technically
correct, but I've no idea what to make of your information, and the fact
is I'm still lost. Frankly, you've not been much help at all.
If anything, you've delayed my trip."

The woman below responded, "You must be in Management."
"I am!" replied the balloonist, "but how did you know?"

"Well", said the woman, "you don't know where you are or where you're going.
You have risen to where you are, due to a large quantity of hot air.

You expect people beneath you to solve your problems.

The fact is you are in exactly the same position you were in
before we met, but now, somehow, it's my fault.".

---000---

I'd venture a guess that Scott is in Management.

He had a problem which he didn't know how to resolve.

Somebody tried to help him, and now it's that
person's fault that Scott can't resolve his problem.

That, at the very least is ungrateful.

If I had a problem and somebody tried to help me,
I sure wouldn't try to bash his head in for trying to help me.

I plonked Scott some time ago.

Juan T. Llibre, ASP.NET MVP
ASP.NET FAQ : http://asp.net.do/faq/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:eP**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
I'm also distressed Bill, at how MVP's are so quick to rally around each other under
all most any circumstance, even when an MVP is wrong or when someone points out any
criticism of them.


Bill is not an MVP. And you seem to be alone in your opinion that Juan is wrong and you
are right. That ought to make you suspicious of your own opinion.

In fact, regardless of whether or not Juan is wrong, the point that is being made is
that your attitude towards Juan is wrong. These are 2 separate issues, and they are not
exclusive of one another.

When one feels wronged, there are several alternative paths one can take. In the case of
being given wrong information, as you seem to feel you were given by Juan, you may
choose to ignore the information. In fact, in the process of problem-solving, this is
the logical thing to do. If information comes to light that is irrelvant to the solution
of a problem, it is a waste of time to give it any consideration, or to point out the
wrongness of it to the one who offers it. Doing so does not lead to a solution of the
problem.

As the person with the problem to solve, it is your responsibility to solve your
problem. It is not productive to argue with those who give you information that does not
lead to a solution of the problem.

From my observations, there was some mis-communication going on between you and Juan
regarding the issue. This is a common occurrance, as the only means of communication on
a public newsgroup is to post a message and wait for a response. One does not have the
convenience of being able to ask a spate of questions back and forth in order to clarify
terms, etc. I am fairly certain that at some point both you and Juan misunderstood each
other's communications. As an impartial observer, it seems that you were both
sidetracked by a debate over these miscommunications. In any case, the debate was not
useful to the solution of your problem.

As a conjecture, it seems that both you and Juan are somewhat argumentative, and the
chemistry worked out badly. This is not a criticism of either of you. I have been known
(including by myself) to be somewhat argumentative as well, and this is a common trait
in people who enjoy participating in discussions. It is sometimes useful, but must be
constrained, or it can easily lead to hurt feelings and relationship issues.

It is a fact that Juan was trying to help you out. That is an act of kindness. He does,
in fact, do quite a bit of work in his efforts to help others, and this seems (at least
to me) to afford him a good bit of slack regarding whatever personality flaws he
posesses (as do we all). In fact, as we all do indeed posess personality flaws, it
behooves us all to cut one another a certain amount of slack.

One cannot correct the mistakes and personality flaws of others. Personality flaws lead
to decisions, and the only person who can make a correction regarding one's decisions is
one's self, by making future decisions differently, or at least making a conscious
effort to do so. Once made, a decision cannot be unmade. It is in the past, which is
inalterable.

In the context of solving a problem, it is even more useless to be sidetracked by an
observation of a poor decision on the part of another person, as I have already
explained. It is, however, appropriate to take inventory of one's own decisions in the
aftermath, and see if it is possible to make some changes with regards to future similar
situations, in the effort to avoid possible similar such occurrences in the future.

In conclusion, how about cutting Juan some slack, cutting Bill some slack, cutting MVPs
some slack, and taking an inventory of your own decisions in this situation, to see what
you may do to prevent such a situation from bogging you down in the future? Or, at
least, how about putting all this out of your mind so that you can relax?

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
Ambiguity has a certain quality to it.
"Scott M." <s-***@nospam.nospam> wrote in message
news:u6****************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
I'm also distressed Bill, at how MVP's are so quick to rally around each other under
all most any circumstance, even when an MVP is wrong or when someone points out any
criticism of them.

I also find it interesting that everyone is telling me how I have flamed Juan, yet I
have not used any profanity or called anyone names. I've simply stated the facts and
indicated that Juan has been of no help. If you folks can't take that then PLEASE do
yourselves and me a favor and just filter me out of your NG reader. There's no need
for you to waste your precious time on someone like that.

But by all means, read Bill's messages and "humbly" accept his criticism because all
he's doing is using profanity and slinging insults around.

PS - I really hope you never mis-type a word in a public communication Bill (I know
that you never have in your life, but just a hope for the future). Because some
smart-ass might want to try to publicly point out your simple error and then tell you
that you have a corn cob stuck in your ass.
"Bill" <Bi**@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:8C**********************************@microsof t.com...
Two points, 1 for Scott & 1 for MVP's

Scott, you have a serious piece of corn cob stuck in your ass. How come
you're so grumpy? And BTW it's a "MOOT" point, not "MUTE" point.

MVP's, I'm really distressed by the fact that so often when I post detailed
questions to various newsgroups my questions are ignored, and yet when some
grumpy guy with cob stuck in his ass flames you, you spend the rest of the
day responding to him. How about spending more time with those of us who
respect your advice and less time with grumpy guys who have cob stuck in
their ass?

Bill



Nov 19 '05 #53
You're a very knowledgable and giving person, Juan, and I know that from
time to time I have personally picked up some very valuable information from
you. Don't sweat it. Anyone who has spent any time in this newsgroup knows
it.

--

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
Ambiguity has a certain quality to it.

"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:%2******************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
A man in a hot air balloon realized he was lost. He reduced his altitude
and spotted a woman below. He descended a bit more and shouted:

"Excuse me, can you help me? I promised a friend I would meet him an hour
ago, but I don't know where I am."

The woman below replied, "You're in a hot air balloon hovering
approximately
30 feet above the ground. You're between 40 and 45 degrees north latitude
and between 9 and 60 degrees west longitude."

"You must be in Information Technology," said the balloonist.
"I am," replied the woman, "How did you know?"

"Well," answered the balloonist, "everything you told me is technically
correct, but I've no idea what to make of your information, and the fact
is I'm still lost. Frankly, you've not been much help at all.
If anything, you've delayed my trip."

The woman below responded, "You must be in Management."
"I am!" replied the balloonist, "but how did you know?"

"Well", said the woman, "you don't know where you are or where you're
going.
You have risen to where you are, due to a large quantity of hot air.

You expect people beneath you to solve your problems.

The fact is you are in exactly the same position you were in
before we met, but now, somehow, it's my fault.".

---000---

I'd venture a guess that Scott is in Management.

He had a problem which he didn't know how to resolve.

Somebody tried to help him, and now it's that
person's fault that Scott can't resolve his problem.

That, at the very least is ungrateful.

If I had a problem and somebody tried to help me,
I sure wouldn't try to bash his head in for trying to help me.

I plonked Scott some time ago.

Juan T. Llibre, ASP.NET MVP
ASP.NET FAQ : http://asp.net.do/faq/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:eP**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
I'm also distressed Bill, at how MVP's are so quick to rally around each
other under all most any circumstance, even when an MVP is wrong or when
someone points out any criticism of them.


Bill is not an MVP. And you seem to be alone in your opinion that Juan is
wrong and you are right. That ought to make you suspicious of your own
opinion.

In fact, regardless of whether or not Juan is wrong, the point that is
being made is that your attitude towards Juan is wrong. These are 2
separate issues, and they are not exclusive of one another.

When one feels wronged, there are several alternative paths one can take.
In the case of being given wrong information, as you seem to feel you
were given by Juan, you may choose to ignore the information. In fact, in
the process of problem-solving, this is the logical thing to do. If
information comes to light that is irrelvant to the solution of a
problem, it is a waste of time to give it any consideration, or to point
out the wrongness of it to the one who offers it. Doing so does not lead
to a solution of the problem.

As the person with the problem to solve, it is your responsibility to
solve your problem. It is not productive to argue with those who give you
information that does not lead to a solution of the problem.

From my observations, there was some mis-communication going on between
you and Juan regarding the issue. This is a common occurrance, as the
only means of communication on a public newsgroup is to post a message
and wait for a response. One does not have the convenience of being able
to ask a spate of questions back and forth in order to clarify terms,
etc. I am fairly certain that at some point both you and Juan
misunderstood each other's communications. As an impartial observer, it
seems that you were both sidetracked by a debate over these
miscommunications. In any case, the debate was not useful to the solution
of your problem.

As a conjecture, it seems that both you and Juan are somewhat
argumentative, and the chemistry worked out badly. This is not a
criticism of either of you. I have been known (including by myself) to be
somewhat argumentative as well, and this is a common trait in people who
enjoy participating in discussions. It is sometimes useful, but must be
constrained, or it can easily lead to hurt feelings and relationship
issues.

It is a fact that Juan was trying to help you out. That is an act of
kindness. He does, in fact, do quite a bit of work in his efforts to help
others, and this seems (at least to me) to afford him a good bit of slack
regarding whatever personality flaws he posesses (as do we all). In fact,
as we all do indeed posess personality flaws, it behooves us all to cut
one another a certain amount of slack.

One cannot correct the mistakes and personality flaws of others.
Personality flaws lead to decisions, and the only person who can make a
correction regarding one's decisions is one's self, by making future
decisions differently, or at least making a conscious effort to do so.
Once made, a decision cannot be unmade. It is in the past, which is
inalterable.

In the context of solving a problem, it is even more useless to be
sidetracked by an observation of a poor decision on the part of another
person, as I have already explained. It is, however, appropriate to take
inventory of one's own decisions in the aftermath, and see if it is
possible to make some changes with regards to future similar situations,
in the effort to avoid possible similar such occurrences in the future.

In conclusion, how about cutting Juan some slack, cutting Bill some
slack, cutting MVPs some slack, and taking an inventory of your own
decisions in this situation, to see what you may do to prevent such a
situation from bogging you down in the future? Or, at least, how about
putting all this out of your mind so that you can relax?

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
Ambiguity has a certain quality to it.
"Scott M." <s-***@nospam.nospam> wrote in message
news:u6****************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
I'm also distressed Bill, at how MVP's are so quick to rally around each
other under all most any circumstance, even when an MVP is wrong or when
someone points out any criticism of them.

I also find it interesting that everyone is telling me how I have flamed
Juan, yet I have not used any profanity or called anyone names. I've
simply stated the facts and indicated that Juan has been of no help. If
you folks can't take that then PLEASE do yourselves and me a favor and
just filter me out of your NG reader. There's no need for you to waste
your precious time on someone like that.

But by all means, read Bill's messages and "humbly" accept his criticism
because all he's doing is using profanity and slinging insults around.

PS - I really hope you never mis-type a word in a public communication
Bill (I know that you never have in your life, but just a hope for the
future). Because some smart-ass might want to try to publicly point out
your simple error and then tell you that you have a corn cob stuck in
your ass.
"Bill" <Bi**@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:8C**********************************@microsof t.com...
Two points, 1 for Scott & 1 for MVP's

Scott, you have a serious piece of corn cob stuck in your ass. How
come
you're so grumpy? And BTW it's a "MOOT" point, not "MUTE" point.

MVP's, I'm really distressed by the fact that so often when I post
detailed
questions to various newsgroups my questions are ignored, and yet when
some
grumpy guy with cob stuck in his ass flames you, you spend the rest of
the
day responding to him. How about spending more time with those of us
who
respect your advice and less time with grumpy guys who have cob stuck
in
their ass?

Bill



Nov 19 '05 #54
Kevin,

Your attempts to educate me on how to understand what help is aside. the
fact is that it is one thing to offer assistance to someone (even if that
assistance turns out to be non-helpful) and another completely to argue with
someone over what kind of assistance they need, despite their repeatedly
giving information that clearly indicates that the help is heading in the
wrong direction.

What you seem to be overlooking in your assessment, is that despite Juan's
attempts at helpfulness, on four (4 - not 1, 2 or 3), but 4 separate
occasions, Juan argued with me (unprovoked., I might add - go back and read
the posts if you wish) about what my problem was.

He refused to listen to the information I was giving him about the situation
and immediately jumped to misguided conclusions (even going so far as to
predict my future when he told me that I would wind up rebuilding my
machines in the end anyway).

I'm not an idiot, and I'm not an impatient person. But, when someone is
going to repeatedly argue with me that hardware is most definitely my
problem and it makes no sense to look past that after I have provided specs.
and ruled that out, is just ignorant. That's a fact. Believe it or not,
but that's my take on it.

When someone then goes on to categorically state that the software I'm
having trouble with could, in no way, be responsible (or involved) for the
problem I'm having, also shows ignorance.

Add to that an unwavering stand that my problem isn't solved after stating
what the problem ultimately was and what the solution was for it, shows
ignorance.

Hey, you might not like that I've been honest and told Juan what my
assessment of his trouble shooting skills are and you may not agree based on
your previous experiences with Juan, but I have no such history with Juan
and despite the fact that he may very well be a nice person who gives of his
time and has been helpful to others, my take is that he's been arrogant,
argumentative and not helpful in my problem. That's my take on him and I'm
entitled to it. I've not, called him names, I've not sworn at him and I
have not stated anything that hasn't been part of this thread (which
represents the sum of my experience with him).

You disagree. That's fine, and you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
But, it doesn't give you or Bill or anyone else the right to tell me what my
opinion of Juan should be. Bill decided to interject with sophomoric
rhetoric that ratcheted up the discourse with his sharp wit. He doesn't
need you to shield him from my reply.

In short (and this has been my only point all along), this is not a
situation of some kind-hearted person giving of themselves, but ultimately
coming up with the wrong answer, it has been a case of someone who is so
hungry to be right, they were willing to argue the incorrectness of someone
else who knew more about the situation that they did. If you feel inclined
to respond to this post (God knows we've spent way too much time on this
already), go back and read the first 4 or 5 messages between Juan and I and
you will see that he flat out argued with me over things that he could not
have known about and that he was so sure of his solutions, he was definitive
in his stand. That's not the same thing as offering help and being wrong.

Lastly, to the point of my remarks regarding MVP's.... I know Bill is not
an MVP and I didn't say he was (again, not reading the post correctly). I
made a point in my message to Bill that MVP's seem to rally around each
other no matter what the circumstance. Is that part of the club's motto or
something?

I am not a newbie and I'm not a kid (so the dissertations on how NG's work
and what to do when presented with bogus information are not needed, thank
you). The fact that you haven't bothered to acknowledge how argumentative
Juan was during this thread BEFORE I pointed out anything negative about his
"help" shows me that it really doesn't matter what an MVP says. MVP's stick
with MVP's.

I have been a faithful contributor to the MS NG's for nearly a decade. I
myself give of my own time to help solve the problems of others. I've been
wrong in my suggestions and I've been right as well, so I don't need a
lecture in how helpfulness works. But I've NEVER told a poster what their
problem definitely was and then defended that stance when I knew nothing
about their scenario or if they were able to give me information that would
(or should) have told me that something could be ruled out.

I'm not an MVP and frankly, don't care if I would or wouldn't qualify to be
one. I don't post and reply here for that. I post and reply here to learn.
And, I have learned a great deal over the years (from you as well as many
others - MVP's and non-MVP's), but MVP's always have a way of rallying
around each other, rather than stick to doing what I believe, by and large,
they do best, providing accurate technical information. Don't be afraid to
rattle some cages and call a spade a spade from time to time. Juan was
wrong to categorically tell me what my problem was (4 times) without
accepting my (first hand) knowledge of the situation. Juan has been
arrogant and stubborn to me and provided no constructive help in the
process. That is my last word on this subject.

Thank you for your constructive help.

-Scott
"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:eP**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
I'm also distressed Bill, at how MVP's are so quick to rally around each
other under all most any circumstance, even when an MVP is wrong or when
someone points out any criticism of them.


Bill is not an MVP. And you seem to be alone in your opinion that Juan is
wrong and you are right. That ought to make you suspicious of your own
opinion.

In fact, regardless of whether or not Juan is wrong, the point that is
being made is that your attitude towards Juan is wrong. These are 2
separate issues, and they are not exclusive of one another.

When one feels wronged, there are several alternative paths one can take.
In the case of being given wrong information, as you seem to feel you were
given by Juan, you may choose to ignore the information. In fact, in the
process of problem-solving, this is the logical thing to do. If
information comes to light that is irrelvant to the solution of a problem,
it is a waste of time to give it any consideration, or to point out the
wrongness of it to the one who offers it. Doing so does not lead to a
solution of the problem.

As the person with the problem to solve, it is your responsibility to
solve your problem. It is not productive to argue with those who give you
information that does not lead to a solution of the problem.

From my observations, there was some mis-communication going on between
you and Juan regarding the issue. This is a common occurrance, as the only
means of communication on a public newsgroup is to post a message and wait
for a response. One does not have the convenience of being able to ask a
spate of questions back and forth in order to clarify terms, etc. I am
fairly certain that at some point both you and Juan misunderstood each
other's communications. As an impartial observer, it seems that you were
both sidetracked by a debate over these miscommunications. In any case,
the debate was not useful to the solution of your problem.

As a conjecture, it seems that both you and Juan are somewhat
argumentative, and the chemistry worked out badly. This is not a criticism
of either of you. I have been known (including by myself) to be somewhat
argumentative as well, and this is a common trait in people who enjoy
participating in discussions. It is sometimes useful, but must be
constrained, or it can easily lead to hurt feelings and relationship
issues.

It is a fact that Juan was trying to help you out. That is an act of
kindness. He does, in fact, do quite a bit of work in his efforts to help
others, and this seems (at least to me) to afford him a good bit of slack
regarding whatever personality flaws he posesses (as do we all). In fact,
as we all do indeed posess personality flaws, it behooves us all to cut
one another a certain amount of slack.

One cannot correct the mistakes and personality flaws of others.
Personality flaws lead to decisions, and the only person who can make a
correction regarding one's decisions is one's self, by making future
decisions differently, or at least making a conscious effort to do so.
Once made, a decision cannot be unmade. It is in the past, which is
inalterable.

In the context of solving a problem, it is even more useless to be
sidetracked by an observation of a poor decision on the part of another
person, as I have already explained. It is, however, appropriate to take
inventory of one's own decisions in the aftermath, and see if it is
possible to make some changes with regards to future similar situations,
in the effort to avoid possible similar such occurrences in the future.

In conclusion, how about cutting Juan some slack, cutting Bill some slack,
cutting MVPs some slack, and taking an inventory of your own decisions in
this situation, to see what you may do to prevent such a situation from
bogging you down in the future? Or, at least, how about putting all this
out of your mind so that you can relax?

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
Ambiguity has a certain quality to it.
"Scott M." <s-***@nospam.nospam> wrote in message
news:u6****************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
I'm also distressed Bill, at how MVP's are so quick to rally around each
other under all most any circumstance, even when an MVP is wrong or when
someone points out any criticism of them.

I also find it interesting that everyone is telling me how I have flamed
Juan, yet I have not used any profanity or called anyone names. I've
simply stated the facts and indicated that Juan has been of no help. If
you folks can't take that then PLEASE do yourselves and me a favor and
just filter me out of your NG reader. There's no need for you to waste
your precious time on someone like that.

But by all means, read Bill's messages and "humbly" accept his criticism
because all he's doing is using profanity and slinging insults around.

PS - I really hope you never mis-type a word in a public communication
Bill (I know that you never have in your life, but just a hope for the
future). Because some smart-ass might want to try to publicly point out
your simple error and then tell you that you have a corn cob stuck in
your ass.
"Bill" <Bi**@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:8C**********************************@microsof t.com...
Two points, 1 for Scott & 1 for MVP's

Scott, you have a serious piece of corn cob stuck in your ass. How come
you're so grumpy? And BTW it's a "MOOT" point, not "MUTE" point.

MVP's, I'm really distressed by the fact that so often when I post
detailed
questions to various newsgroups my questions are ignored, and yet when
some
grumpy guy with cob stuck in his ass flames you, you spend the rest of
the
day responding to him. How about spending more time with those of us
who
respect your advice and less time with grumpy guys who have cob stuck in
their ass?

Bill



Nov 19 '05 #55
> He had a problem which he didn't know how to resolve.

True.
Somebody tried to help him, and now it's that
person's fault that Scott can't resolve his problem.
I've told you 4 times that the problem has been solved - what part of that
don't you get?
That, at the very least is ungrateful.
Did you not see my post to George and Kevin? Seems odd that you would say
that when I clearly thanked the folks that helped me find my problem.
Sounds a bit like you are crying sour grapes because you weren't as helpful.
There is nothing I can do to help you with that.
If I had a problem and somebody tried to help me,
I sure wouldn't try to bash his head in for trying to help me.
If that person repeatedly (say, on 4 separate occassions) told you that your
problem was something that you knew (and had previously stated) was not the
problem, would you begin to feel that that person just wanted to be heard
and wasn't actually contributing to the solution?

I plonked Scott some time ago.
Then why do you keep responding?


Juan T. Llibre, ASP.NET MVP
ASP.NET FAQ : http://asp.net.do/faq/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:eP**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
I'm also distressed Bill, at how MVP's are so quick to rally around each
other under all most any circumstance, even when an MVP is wrong or when
someone points out any criticism of them.


Bill is not an MVP. And you seem to be alone in your opinion that Juan is
wrong and you are right. That ought to make you suspicious of your own
opinion.

In fact, regardless of whether or not Juan is wrong, the point that is
being made is that your attitude towards Juan is wrong. These are 2
separate issues, and they are not exclusive of one another.

When one feels wronged, there are several alternative paths one can take.
In the case of being given wrong information, as you seem to feel you
were given by Juan, you may choose to ignore the information. In fact, in
the process of problem-solving, this is the logical thing to do. If
information comes to light that is irrelvant to the solution of a
problem, it is a waste of time to give it any consideration, or to point
out the wrongness of it to the one who offers it. Doing so does not lead
to a solution of the problem.

As the person with the problem to solve, it is your responsibility to
solve your problem. It is not productive to argue with those who give you
information that does not lead to a solution of the problem.

From my observations, there was some mis-communication going on between
you and Juan regarding the issue. This is a common occurrance, as the
only means of communication on a public newsgroup is to post a message
and wait for a response. One does not have the convenience of being able
to ask a spate of questions back and forth in order to clarify terms,
etc. I am fairly certain that at some point both you and Juan
misunderstood each other's communications. As an impartial observer, it
seems that you were both sidetracked by a debate over these
miscommunications. In any case, the debate was not useful to the solution
of your problem.

As a conjecture, it seems that both you and Juan are somewhat
argumentative, and the chemistry worked out badly. This is not a
criticism of either of you. I have been known (including by myself) to be
somewhat argumentative as well, and this is a common trait in people who
enjoy participating in discussions. It is sometimes useful, but must be
constrained, or it can easily lead to hurt feelings and relationship
issues.

It is a fact that Juan was trying to help you out. That is an act of
kindness. He does, in fact, do quite a bit of work in his efforts to help
others, and this seems (at least to me) to afford him a good bit of slack
regarding whatever personality flaws he posesses (as do we all). In fact,
as we all do indeed posess personality flaws, it behooves us all to cut
one another a certain amount of slack.

One cannot correct the mistakes and personality flaws of others.
Personality flaws lead to decisions, and the only person who can make a
correction regarding one's decisions is one's self, by making future
decisions differently, or at least making a conscious effort to do so.
Once made, a decision cannot be unmade. It is in the past, which is
inalterable.

In the context of solving a problem, it is even more useless to be
sidetracked by an observation of a poor decision on the part of another
person, as I have already explained. It is, however, appropriate to take
inventory of one's own decisions in the aftermath, and see if it is
possible to make some changes with regards to future similar situations,
in the effort to avoid possible similar such occurrences in the future.

In conclusion, how about cutting Juan some slack, cutting Bill some
slack, cutting MVPs some slack, and taking an inventory of your own
decisions in this situation, to see what you may do to prevent such a
situation from bogging you down in the future? Or, at least, how about
putting all this out of your mind so that you can relax?

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
Ambiguity has a certain quality to it.
"Scott M." <s-***@nospam.nospam> wrote in message
news:u6****************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
I'm also distressed Bill, at how MVP's are so quick to rally around each
other under all most any circumstance, even when an MVP is wrong or when
someone points out any criticism of them.

I also find it interesting that everyone is telling me how I have flamed
Juan, yet I have not used any profanity or called anyone names. I've
simply stated the facts and indicated that Juan has been of no help. If
you folks can't take that then PLEASE do yourselves and me a favor and
just filter me out of your NG reader. There's no need for you to waste
your precious time on someone like that.

But by all means, read Bill's messages and "humbly" accept his criticism
because all he's doing is using profanity and slinging insults around.

PS - I really hope you never mis-type a word in a public communication
Bill (I know that you never have in your life, but just a hope for the
future). Because some smart-ass might want to try to publicly point out
your simple error and then tell you that you have a corn cob stuck in
your ass.
"Bill" <Bi**@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:8C**********************************@microsof t.com...
Two points, 1 for Scott & 1 for MVP's

Scott, you have a serious piece of corn cob stuck in your ass. How
come
you're so grumpy? And BTW it's a "MOOT" point, not "MUTE" point.

MVP's, I'm really distressed by the fact that so often when I post
detailed
questions to various newsgroups my questions are ignored, and yet when
some
grumpy guy with cob stuck in his ass flames you, you spend the rest of
the
day responding to him. How about spending more time with those of us
who
respect your advice and less time with grumpy guys who have cob stuck
in
their ass?

Bill



Nov 19 '05 #56
Thanks, Kevin.

It's really a shame that we have to dedicate so many posts
to explaining things which should be quite obvious, just
because someone has a distorted sense of what he is due.

The OP's flames don't bug me.

I've been here for years, before he suddenly appeared in all his "glory",
and I'll be here long after he stops wasting everybody's time with his complaints.

Drive-by shooters are of no consequence to the community.
And *that* is my last word on this thread.

Juan T. Llibre, ASP.NET MVP
ASP.NET FAQ : http://asp.net.do/faq/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:uT**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
You're a very knowledgable and giving person, Juan, and I know that from time to time I
have personally picked up some very valuable information from you. Don't sweat it.
Anyone who has spent any time in this newsgroup knows it.

--

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
Ambiguity has a certain quality to it.

"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:%2******************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
A man in a hot air balloon realized he was lost. He reduced his altitude
and spotted a woman below. He descended a bit more and shouted:

"Excuse me, can you help me? I promised a friend I would meet him an hour
ago, but I don't know where I am."

The woman below replied, "You're in a hot air balloon hovering approximately
30 feet above the ground. You're between 40 and 45 degrees north latitude
and between 9 and 60 degrees west longitude."

"You must be in Information Technology," said the balloonist.
"I am," replied the woman, "How did you know?"

"Well," answered the balloonist, "everything you told me is technically
correct, but I've no idea what to make of your information, and the fact
is I'm still lost. Frankly, you've not been much help at all.
If anything, you've delayed my trip."

The woman below responded, "You must be in Management."
"I am!" replied the balloonist, "but how did you know?"

"Well", said the woman, "you don't know where you are or where you're going.
You have risen to where you are, due to a large quantity of hot air.

You expect people beneath you to solve your problems.

The fact is you are in exactly the same position you were in
before we met, but now, somehow, it's my fault.".

---000---

I'd venture a guess that Scott is in Management.

He had a problem which he didn't know how to resolve.

Somebody tried to help him, and now it's that
person's fault that Scott can't resolve his problem.

That, at the very least is ungrateful.

If I had a problem and somebody tried to help me,
I sure wouldn't try to bash his head in for trying to help me.

I plonked Scott some time ago.

Juan T. Llibre, ASP.NET MVP
ASP.NET FAQ : http://asp.net.do/faq/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:eP**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
I'm also distressed Bill, at how MVP's are so quick to rally around each other under
all most any circumstance, even when an MVP is wrong or when someone points out any
criticism of them.

Bill is not an MVP. And you seem to be alone in your opinion that Juan is wrong and
you are right. That ought to make you suspicious of your own opinion.

In fact, regardless of whether or not Juan is wrong, the point that is being made is
that your attitude towards Juan is wrong. These are 2 separate issues, and they are
not exclusive of one another.

When one feels wronged, there are several alternative paths one can take. In the case
of being given wrong information, as you seem to feel you were given by Juan, you may
choose to ignore the information. In fact, in the process of problem-solving, this is
the logical thing to do. If information comes to light that is irrelvant to the
solution of a problem, it is a waste of time to give it any consideration, or to point
out the wrongness of it to the one who offers it. Doing so does not lead to a solution
of the problem.

As the person with the problem to solve, it is your responsibility to solve your
problem. It is not productive to argue with those who give you information that does
not lead to a solution of the problem.

From my observations, there was some mis-communication going on between you and Juan
regarding the issue. This is a common occurrance, as the only means of communication
on a public newsgroup is to post a message and wait for a response. One does not have
the convenience of being able to ask a spate of questions back and forth in order to
clarify terms, etc. I am fairly certain that at some point both you and Juan
misunderstood each other's communications. As an impartial observer, it seems that you
were both sidetracked by a debate over these miscommunications. In any case, the
debate was not useful to the solution of your problem.

As a conjecture, it seems that both you and Juan are somewhat argumentative, and the
chemistry worked out badly. This is not a criticism of either of you. I have been
known (including by myself) to be somewhat argumentative as well, and this is a common
trait in people who enjoy participating in discussions. It is sometimes useful, but
must be constrained, or it can easily lead to hurt feelings and relationship issues.

It is a fact that Juan was trying to help you out. That is an act of kindness. He
does, in fact, do quite a bit of work in his efforts to help others, and this seems
(at least to me) to afford him a good bit of slack regarding whatever personality
flaws he posesses (as do we all). In fact, as we all do indeed posess personality
flaws, it behooves us all to cut one another a certain amount of slack.

One cannot correct the mistakes and personality flaws of others. Personality flaws
lead to decisions, and the only person who can make a correction regarding one's
decisions is one's self, by making future decisions differently, or at least making a
conscious effort to do so. Once made, a decision cannot be unmade. It is in the past,
which is inalterable.

In the context of solving a problem, it is even more useless to be sidetracked by an
observation of a poor decision on the part of another person, as I have already
explained. It is, however, appropriate to take inventory of one's own decisions in the
aftermath, and see if it is possible to make some changes with regards to future
similar situations, in the effort to avoid possible similar such occurrences in the
future.

In conclusion, how about cutting Juan some slack, cutting Bill some slack, cutting
MVPs some slack, and taking an inventory of your own decisions in this situation, to
see what you may do to prevent such a situation from bogging you down in the future?
Or, at least, how about putting all this out of your mind so that you can relax?

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
Ambiguity has a certain quality to it.
"Scott M." <s-***@nospam.nospam> wrote in message
news:u6****************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
I'm also distressed Bill, at how MVP's are so quick to rally around each other under
all most any circumstance, even when an MVP is wrong or when someone points out any
criticism of them.

I also find it interesting that everyone is telling me how I have flamed Juan, yet I
have not used any profanity or called anyone names. I've simply stated the facts and
indicated that Juan has been of no help. If you folks can't take that then PLEASE do
yourselves and me a favor and just filter me out of your NG reader. There's no need
for you to waste your precious time on someone like that.

But by all means, read Bill's messages and "humbly" accept his criticism because all
he's doing is using profanity and slinging insults around.

PS - I really hope you never mis-type a word in a public communication Bill (I know
that you never have in your life, but just a hope for the future). Because some
smart-ass might want to try to publicly point out your simple error and then tell you
that you have a corn cob stuck in your ass.
"Bill" <Bi**@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:8C**********************************@microsof t.com...
> Two points, 1 for Scott & 1 for MVP's
>
> Scott, you have a serious piece of corn cob stuck in your ass. How come
> you're so grumpy? And BTW it's a "MOOT" point, not "MUTE" point.
>
> MVP's, I'm really distressed by the fact that so often when I post detailed
> questions to various newsgroups my questions are ignored, and yet when some
> grumpy guy with cob stuck in his ass flames you, you spend the rest of the
> day responding to him. How about spending more time with those of us who
> respect your advice and less time with grumpy guys who have cob stuck in
> their ass?
>
> Bill



Nov 19 '05 #57
You missed my point completely.
Your attempts to educate me on how to understand what help is aside. the
fact is that it is one thing to offer assistance to someone (even if that
assistance turns out to be non-helpful) and another completely to argue
with someone over what kind of assistance they need, despite their
repeatedly giving information that clearly indicates that the help is
heading in the wrong direction.
Let me extract a quote from my last post:
If information comes to light that is irrelvant to the solution of a
problem, it is a waste of time to give it any consideration, or to point
out the wrongness of it to the one who offers it. Doing so does not lead
to a solution of the problem.
What you seem to be overlooking in your assessment, is that despite Juan's
attempts at helpfulness, on four (4 - not 1, 2 or 3), but 4 separate
occasions, Juan argued with me (unprovoked., I might add - go back and
read the posts if you wish) about what my problem was.
Again, reiterating from my last post:
As the person with the problem to solve, it is your responsibility to
solve your problem. It is not productive to argue with those who give you
information that does not lead to a solution of the problem.
I made a point in my message to Bill that MVP's seem to rally around each
other no matter what the circumstance. Is that part of the club's motto
or something?
Perhaps I was not clear enough in the following:
It is a fact that Juan was trying to help you out. That is an act of
kindness. He does, in fact, do quite a bit of work in his efforts to help
others, and this seems (at least to me) to afford him a good bit of slack
regarding whatever personality flaws he posesses (as do we all). In fact,
as we all do indeed posess personality flaws, it behooves us all to cut
one another a certain amount of slack.


Juan contributes a great deal to the ASP.Net programming community in
general. His participation in this newsgroup is just the tip of the iceberg.
If you want to find out more, just Google "Juan T. Libre." The amount of
work he does to help others is far beyond the Microsoft requirements for the
MVP award. I would say that affords him a commensurate amount of slack, and
not a little bit of respect. Am I going to speak up on his behalf because
he's an MVP? I have actually confronted a few MVPs, reluctantly. No. I am
going to speak up on his behalf because of his generosity and committment to
help others, a quality that is rare and praiseworthy. I would do (and have
done) the same for anyone who exhibits that sort of kindness and generosity.
It so happens that the Microsoft MVP award is given to people who
voluntarily contribute to the betterment of people who participate in
communities such as this one, and therefore I do speak up on behalf of many
of them, for the same reason, not because of the award. Therefore, your
perception is in error.

Juan has exhibited a certain amount of defensiveness and resentment
concerning your attitude. In light of the facts I have enumerated, and in
light of his tireless work to help others, I can understand the attitude.
Perhaps you were unaware of these facts. That is understandable. You should
be aware of them now. So, in light of these facts, my counsel would be the
same as it has been. Let it go. Give the guy a break.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
Ambiguity has a certain quality to it.

"Scott M." <s-***@nospam.nospam> wrote in message
news:uT*************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl... Kevin,

Your attempts to educate me on how to understand what help is aside. the
fact is that it is one thing to offer assistance to someone (even if that
assistance turns out to be non-helpful) and another completely to argue
with someone over what kind of assistance they need, despite their
repeatedly giving information that clearly indicates that the help is
heading in the wrong direction.

What you seem to be overlooking in your assessment, is that despite Juan's
attempts at helpfulness, on four (4 - not 1, 2 or 3), but 4 separate
occasions, Juan argued with me (unprovoked., I might add - go back and
read the posts if you wish) about what my problem was.

He refused to listen to the information I was giving him about the
situation and immediately jumped to misguided conclusions (even going so
far as to predict my future when he told me that I would wind up
rebuilding my machines in the end anyway).

I'm not an idiot, and I'm not an impatient person. But, when someone is
going to repeatedly argue with me that hardware is most definitely my
problem and it makes no sense to look past that after I have provided
specs. and ruled that out, is just ignorant. That's a fact. Believe it
or not, but that's my take on it.

When someone then goes on to categorically state that the software I'm
having trouble with could, in no way, be responsible (or involved) for the
problem I'm having, also shows ignorance.

Add to that an unwavering stand that my problem isn't solved after stating
what the problem ultimately was and what the solution was for it, shows
ignorance.

Hey, you might not like that I've been honest and told Juan what my
assessment of his trouble shooting skills are and you may not agree based
on your previous experiences with Juan, but I have no such history with
Juan and despite the fact that he may very well be a nice person who gives
of his time and has been helpful to others, my take is that he's been
arrogant, argumentative and not helpful in my problem. That's my take on
him and I'm entitled to it. I've not, called him names, I've not sworn at
him and I have not stated anything that hasn't been part of this thread
(which represents the sum of my experience with him).

You disagree. That's fine, and you are certainly entitled to your
opinion. But, it doesn't give you or Bill or anyone else the right to tell
me what my opinion of Juan should be. Bill decided to interject with
sophomoric rhetoric that ratcheted up the discourse with his sharp wit.
He doesn't need you to shield him from my reply.

In short (and this has been my only point all along), this is not a
situation of some kind-hearted person giving of themselves, but ultimately
coming up with the wrong answer, it has been a case of someone who is so
hungry to be right, they were willing to argue the incorrectness of
someone else who knew more about the situation that they did. If you feel
inclined to respond to this post (God knows we've spent way too much time
on this already), go back and read the first 4 or 5 messages between Juan
and I and you will see that he flat out argued with me over things that he
could not have known about and that he was so sure of his solutions, he
was definitive in his stand. That's not the same thing as offering help
and being wrong.

Lastly, to the point of my remarks regarding MVP's.... I know Bill is not
an MVP and I didn't say he was (again, not reading the post correctly). I
made a point in my message to Bill that MVP's seem to rally around each
other no matter what the circumstance. Is that part of the club's motto
or something?

I am not a newbie and I'm not a kid (so the dissertations on how NG's work
and what to do when presented with bogus information are not needed, thank
you). The fact that you haven't bothered to acknowledge how argumentative
Juan was during this thread BEFORE I pointed out anything negative about
his "help" shows me that it really doesn't matter what an MVP says. MVP's
stick with MVP's.

I have been a faithful contributor to the MS NG's for nearly a decade. I
myself give of my own time to help solve the problems of others. I've
been wrong in my suggestions and I've been right as well, so I don't need
a lecture in how helpfulness works. But I've NEVER told a poster what
their problem definitely was and then defended that stance when I knew
nothing about their scenario or if they were able to give me information
that would (or should) have told me that something could be ruled out.

I'm not an MVP and frankly, don't care if I would or wouldn't qualify to
be one. I don't post and reply here for that. I post and reply here to
learn. And, I have learned a great deal over the years (from you as well
as many others - MVP's and non-MVP's), but MVP's always have a way of
rallying around each other, rather than stick to doing what I believe, by
and large, they do best, providing accurate technical information. Don't
be afraid to rattle some cages and call a spade a spade from time to time.
Juan was wrong to categorically tell me what my problem was (4 times)
without accepting my (first hand) knowledge of the situation. Juan has
been arrogant and stubborn to me and provided no constructive help in the
process. That is my last word on this subject.

Thank you for your constructive help.

-Scott
"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:eP**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl... I'm also distressed Bill, at how MVP's are so quick to rally around each
other under all most any circumstance, even when an MVP is wrong or when
someone points out any criticism of them.


Bill is not an MVP. And you seem to be alone in your opinion that Juan is
wrong and you are right. That ought to make you suspicious of your own
opinion.

In fact, regardless of whether or not Juan is wrong, the point that is
being made is that your attitude towards Juan is wrong. These are 2
separate issues, and they are not exclusive of one another.

When one feels wronged, there are several alternative paths one can take.
In the case of being given wrong information, as you seem to feel you
were given by Juan, you may choose to ignore the information. In fact, in
the process of problem-solving, this is the logical thing to do. If
information comes to light that is irrelvant to the solution of a
problem, it is a waste of time to give it any consideration, or to point
out the wrongness of it to the one who offers it. Doing so does not lead
to a solution of the problem.

As the person with the problem to solve, it is your responsibility to
solve your problem. It is not productive to argue with those who give you
information that does not lead to a solution of the problem.

From my observations, there was some mis-communication going on between
you and Juan regarding the issue. This is a common occurrance, as the
only means of communication on a public newsgroup is to post a message
and wait for a response. One does not have the convenience of being able
to ask a spate of questions back and forth in order to clarify terms,
etc. I am fairly certain that at some point both you and Juan
misunderstood each other's communications. As an impartial observer, it
seems that you were both sidetracked by a debate over these
miscommunications. In any case, the debate was not useful to the solution
of your problem.

As a conjecture, it seems that both you and Juan are somewhat
argumentative, and the chemistry worked out badly. This is not a
criticism of either of you. I have been known (including by myself) to be
somewhat argumentative as well, and this is a common trait in people who
enjoy participating in discussions. It is sometimes useful, but must be
constrained, or it can easily lead to hurt feelings and relationship
issues.

It is a fact that Juan was trying to help you out. That is an act of
kindness. He does, in fact, do quite a bit of work in his efforts to help
others, and this seems (at least to me) to afford him a good bit of slack
regarding whatever personality flaws he posesses (as do we all). In fact,
as we all do indeed posess personality flaws, it behooves us all to cut
one another a certain amount of slack.

One cannot correct the mistakes and personality flaws of others.
Personality flaws lead to decisions, and the only person who can make a
correction regarding one's decisions is one's self, by making future
decisions differently, or at least making a conscious effort to do so.
Once made, a decision cannot be unmade. It is in the past, which is
inalterable.

In the context of solving a problem, it is even more useless to be
sidetracked by an observation of a poor decision on the part of another
person, as I have already explained. It is, however, appropriate to take
inventory of one's own decisions in the aftermath, and see if it is
possible to make some changes with regards to future similar situations,
in the effort to avoid possible similar such occurrences in the future.

In conclusion, how about cutting Juan some slack, cutting Bill some
slack, cutting MVPs some slack, and taking an inventory of your own
decisions in this situation, to see what you may do to prevent such a
situation from bogging you down in the future? Or, at least, how about
putting all this out of your mind so that you can relax?

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
Ambiguity has a certain quality to it.
"Scott M." <s-***@nospam.nospam> wrote in message
news:u6****************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
I'm also distressed Bill, at how MVP's are so quick to rally around each
other under all most any circumstance, even when an MVP is wrong or when
someone points out any criticism of them.

I also find it interesting that everyone is telling me how I have flamed
Juan, yet I have not used any profanity or called anyone names. I've
simply stated the facts and indicated that Juan has been of no help. If
you folks can't take that then PLEASE do yourselves and me a favor and
just filter me out of your NG reader. There's no need for you to waste
your precious time on someone like that.

But by all means, read Bill's messages and "humbly" accept his criticism
because all he's doing is using profanity and slinging insults around.

PS - I really hope you never mis-type a word in a public communication
Bill (I know that you never have in your life, but just a hope for the
future). Because some smart-ass might want to try to publicly point out
your simple error and then tell you that you have a corn cob stuck in
your ass.
"Bill" <Bi**@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:8C**********************************@microsof t.com...
Two points, 1 for Scott & 1 for MVP's

Scott, you have a serious piece of corn cob stuck in your ass. How
come
you're so grumpy? And BTW it's a "MOOT" point, not "MUTE" point.

MVP's, I'm really distressed by the fact that so often when I post
detailed
questions to various newsgroups my questions are ignored, and yet when
some
grumpy guy with cob stuck in his ass flames you, you spend the rest of
the
day responding to him. How about spending more time with those of us
who
respect your advice and less time with grumpy guys who have cob stuck
in
their ass?

Bill



Nov 19 '05 #58
Kevin Spencer wrote:
Juan has exhibited a certain amount of defensiveness and resentment
concerning your attitude. In light of the facts I have enumerated,
and in light of his tireless work to help others, I can understand
the attitude. Perhaps you were unaware of these facts. That is
understandable. You should be aware of them now. So, in light of
these facts, my counsel would be the same as it has been. Let it go.
Give the guy a break.


I have to add that I have corrected Juan a couple of times in this group
(without much tact on my part, I might add) and he has responded graciously
even though from his perspective, I'm just some guy who showed up here all
of a sudden.

--
Jim Cheshire
JIMCO Software
http://www.jimcosoftware.com

FrontPage add-ins for FrontPage 2000 - 2003


Nov 19 '05 #59
We're all here (or should be, anyway) to learn from each other.
That's the reason for peer-to-peer groups like this one to exist.

When you pointed out that I was wrong about IIS 5 isolation,
I learned something. I appreciate it when someone sets me right.

I have no problem admitting I'm wrong if I am, but when someone
distorts reality to make himself look good at my expense, I take exception.

When the OP writes to Kevin that "Juan argued with me (unprovoked...)",
he tips his hand, as what I did surely cannot be classified as "arguing".

My first *suggestion* to him was about hardware. That's true.

Subsequent suggestions (within a few hours) pointed him to a solution,
but by that time he thought he was having an argument with me.

What *really* ticked him off was this comment by me :
Perhaps you haven't supplied the correct information,
or asked yourself the correct questions, or listened well enough.
I followed that comment with this :
Networked environments are particularly sensitive to naming ambiguities,
and they could lead to, precisely, the type of problem you are describing.
And, it was *precisely* a naming ambiguity
in his hosts file which was giving him problems.

In that same post, I asked him :
How about something simple, like the TCP/IP stacks ?
....and requested more information by asking :
When you run applications on the localhosts, do the sites respond quickly ?
But, he did not consider that important and did not reply.

That was *way* before ( 8 hours before )
George suggested that the OP check his hosts file

If he had been listening, instead of looking to fire back,
he could have solved his problem way earlier.

Now, of course, he has to look good, and replies to Kevin that
I have "provided no constructive help in the process" and that
"ultimately coming up with the wrong answer" was what I did.

Bollocks to that!

Juan T. Llibre, ASP.NET MVP
ASP.NET FAQ : http://asp.net.do/faq/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"JIMCO Software" <co*******@jimcosoftware.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl... Kevin Spencer wrote:
Juan has exhibited a certain amount of defensiveness and resentment
concerning your attitude. In light of the facts I have enumerated,
and in light of his tireless work to help others, I can understand
the attitude. Perhaps you were unaware of these facts. That is
understandable. You should be aware of them now. So, in light of
these facts, my counsel would be the same as it has been. Let it go.
Give the guy a break.
I have to add that I have corrected Juan a couple of times in this group (without much
tact on my part, I might add) and he has responded graciously even though from his
perspective, I'm just some guy who showed up here all of a sudden.

--
Jim Cheshire
JIMCO Software
http://www.jimcosoftware.com

Nov 19 '05 #60
You don't see how you can't seem to just accept that you didn't help me from
even YOUR last post?
My first *suggestion* to him was about hardware. That's true.
It took you 4 messages to "let go" of your "hardware" suggestion after
bickering with me about my specs. when I had told you hardware was ruled
out.
What *really* ticked him off was this comment by me :
Perhaps you haven't supplied the correct information,
or asked yourself the correct questions, or listened well enough.

No, actually what ticked me off what what I've been telling you all along
and what you continue to do right now, which is put words in my mouth and
come to assumptions that aren't true. Don't believe me? Just read what you
just wrote.
I followed that comment with this :
Networked environments are particularly sensitive to naming ambiguities,
and they could lead to, precisely, the type of problem you are describing.
And, it was *precisely* a naming ambiguity
in his hosts file which was giving him problems.


And, where exactly in that bit of wisdom is a suggestion of something to
look at? This is the point, just because you said there are certain
characteristics to networked environments where the names of things are
important, doesn't translate into something tangible to look at. Yet, once
again, you just can't stand to be told that your advice wasn't what led me
to my solution.
In that same post, I asked him :
How about something simple, like the TCP/IP stacks ?
...and requested more information by asking :
When you run applications on the localhosts, do the sites respond quickly
?


But, he did not consider that important and did not reply.


Correct because there were no other applications running on localhost to
look at and "check your TCP/IP stacks" is again vauge and doesn't lead me to
anything specific to check. It wasn't until after I mentioned the hosts
file did you start trumpeting how you were right. It's easy to say you were
right, when you are saying things like, you've got a networking problem,
you've got a hardware problem or you've got an image problem.

That was *way* before ( 8 hours before )
George suggested that the OP check his hosts file

If he had been listening, instead of looking to fire back,
he could have solved his problem way earlier.
Not with the vauge information you were slinging.
Now, of course, he has to look good, and replies to Kevin that
I have "provided no constructive help in the process" and that
"ultimately coming up with the wrong answer" was what I did.
It feels so good to be right Juan, doesn't it?

Bollocks to that!

Juan T. Llibre, ASP.NET MVP
ASP.NET FAQ : http://asp.net.do/faq/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"JIMCO Software" <co*******@jimcosoftware.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
Kevin Spencer wrote:
Juan has exhibited a certain amount of defensiveness and resentment
concerning your attitude. In light of the facts I have enumerated,
and in light of his tireless work to help others, I can understand
the attitude. Perhaps you were unaware of these facts. That is
understandable. You should be aware of them now. So, in light of
these facts, my counsel would be the same as it has been. Let it go.
Give the guy a break.

I have to add that I have corrected Juan a couple of times in this group
(without much tact on my part, I might add) and he has responded
graciously even though from his perspective, I'm just some guy who showed
up here all of a sudden.

--
Jim Cheshire
JIMCO Software
http://www.jimcosoftware.com


Nov 19 '05 #61
Please don't change your address to force me to
have to read your never ending arguments.

*This* address has been plonked, too.

Juan T. Llibre, ASP.NET MVP
ASP.NET FAQ : http://asp.net.do/faq/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"Scott M." <No****@NoSpam.com> wrote in message
news:uV**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
You don't see how you can't seem to just accept that you didn't help me from even YOUR
last post?
My first *suggestion* to him was about hardware. That's true.


It took you 4 messages to "let go" of your "hardware" suggestion after bickering with me
about my specs. when I had told you hardware was ruled out.
What *really* ticked him off was this comment by me :
Perhaps you haven't supplied the correct information,
or asked yourself the correct questions, or listened well enough.


No, actually what ticked me off what what I've been telling you all along and what you
continue to do right now, which is put words in my mouth and come to assumptions that
aren't true. Don't believe me? Just read what you just wrote.
I followed that comment with this :
Networked environments are particularly sensitive to naming ambiguities,
and they could lead to, precisely, the type of problem you are describing.


And, it was *precisely* a naming ambiguity
in his hosts file which was giving him problems.


And, where exactly in that bit of wisdom is a suggestion of something to look at? This
is the point, just because you said there are certain characteristics to networked
environments where the names of things are important, doesn't translate into something
tangible to look at. Yet, once again, you just can't stand to be told that your advice
wasn't what led me to my solution.
In that same post, I asked him :
How about something simple, like the TCP/IP stacks ?


...and requested more information by asking :
When you run applications on the localhosts, do the sites respond quickly ?


But, he did not consider that important and did not reply.


Correct because there were no other applications running on localhost to look at and
"check your TCP/IP stacks" is again vauge and doesn't lead me to anything specific to
check. It wasn't until after I mentioned the hosts file did you start trumpeting how
you were right. It's easy to say you were right, when you are saying things like,
you've got a networking problem, you've got a hardware problem or you've got an image
problem.

That was *way* before ( 8 hours before )
George suggested that the OP check his hosts file

If he had been listening, instead of looking to fire back,
he could have solved his problem way earlier.


Not with the vauge information you were slinging.
Now, of course, he has to look good, and replies to Kevin that
I have "provided no constructive help in the process" and that
"ultimately coming up with the wrong answer" was what I did.


It feels so good to be right Juan, doesn't it?

Bollocks to that!

Juan T. Llibre, ASP.NET MVP
ASP.NET FAQ : http://asp.net.do/faq/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"JIMCO Software" <co*******@jimcosoftware.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
Kevin Spencer wrote:
Juan has exhibited a certain amount of defensiveness and resentment
concerning your attitude. In light of the facts I have enumerated,
and in light of his tireless work to help others, I can understand
the attitude. Perhaps you were unaware of these facts. That is
understandable. You should be aware of them now. So, in light of
these facts, my counsel would be the same as it has been. Let it go.
Give the guy a break.

I have to add that I have corrected Juan a couple of times in this group (without much
tact on my part, I might add) and he has responded graciously even though from his
perspective, I'm just some guy who showed up here all of a sudden.

--
Jim Cheshire
JIMCO Software
http://www.jimcosoftware.com



Nov 19 '05 #62
I WILL have the last word in this thread!!!

;-),

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
Ambiguity has a certain quality to it.

"Scott M." <No****@NoSpam.com> wrote in message
news:uV**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
You don't see how you can't seem to just accept that you didn't help me
from even YOUR last post?
My first *suggestion* to him was about hardware. That's true.


It took you 4 messages to "let go" of your "hardware" suggestion after
bickering with me about my specs. when I had told you hardware was ruled
out.
What *really* ticked him off was this comment by me :
Perhaps you haven't supplied the correct information,
or asked yourself the correct questions, or listened well enough.


No, actually what ticked me off what what I've been telling you all along
and what you continue to do right now, which is put words in my mouth and
come to assumptions that aren't true. Don't believe me? Just read what
you just wrote.
I followed that comment with this :
Networked environments are particularly sensitive to naming ambiguities,
and they could lead to, precisely, the type of problem you are
describing.


And, it was *precisely* a naming ambiguity
in his hosts file which was giving him problems.


And, where exactly in that bit of wisdom is a suggestion of something to
look at? This is the point, just because you said there are certain
characteristics to networked environments where the names of things are
important, doesn't translate into something tangible to look at. Yet,
once again, you just can't stand to be told that your advice wasn't what
led me to my solution.
In that same post, I asked him :
How about something simple, like the TCP/IP stacks ?


...and requested more information by asking :
When you run applications on the localhosts, do the sites respond quickly
?


But, he did not consider that important and did not reply.


Correct because there were no other applications running on localhost to
look at and "check your TCP/IP stacks" is again vauge and doesn't lead me
to anything specific to check. It wasn't until after I mentioned the
hosts file did you start trumpeting how you were right. It's easy to say
you were right, when you are saying things like, you've got a networking
problem, you've got a hardware problem or you've got an image problem.

That was *way* before ( 8 hours before )
George suggested that the OP check his hosts file

If he had been listening, instead of looking to fire back,
he could have solved his problem way earlier.


Not with the vauge information you were slinging.
Now, of course, he has to look good, and replies to Kevin that
I have "provided no constructive help in the process" and that
"ultimately coming up with the wrong answer" was what I did.


It feels so good to be right Juan, doesn't it?

Bollocks to that!

Juan T. Llibre, ASP.NET MVP
ASP.NET FAQ : http://asp.net.do/faq/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"JIMCO Software" <co*******@jimcosoftware.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
Kevin Spencer wrote:
Juan has exhibited a certain amount of defensiveness and resentment
concerning your attitude. In light of the facts I have enumerated,
and in light of his tireless work to help others, I can understand
the attitude. Perhaps you were unaware of these facts. That is
understandable. You should be aware of them now. So, in light of
these facts, my counsel would be the same as it has been. Let it go.
Give the guy a break.

I have to add that I have corrected Juan a couple of times in this group
(without much tact on my part, I might add) and he has responded
graciously even though from his perspective, I'm just some guy who
showed up here all of a sudden.

--
Jim Cheshire
JIMCO Software
http://www.jimcosoftware.com



Nov 19 '05 #63
Okay, you can have it.

:)

"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:eI**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
I WILL have the last word in this thread!!!

;-),

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
Ambiguity has a certain quality to it.

"Scott M." <No****@NoSpam.com> wrote in message
news:uV**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
You don't see how you can't seem to just accept that you didn't help me
from even YOUR last post?
My first *suggestion* to him was about hardware. That's true.


It took you 4 messages to "let go" of your "hardware" suggestion after
bickering with me about my specs. when I had told you hardware was ruled
out.
What *really* ticked him off was this comment by me :

Perhaps you haven't supplied the correct information,
or asked yourself the correct questions, or listened well enough.


No, actually what ticked me off what what I've been telling you all along
and what you continue to do right now, which is put words in my mouth and
come to assumptions that aren't true. Don't believe me? Just read what
you just wrote.
I followed that comment with this :

Networked environments are particularly sensitive to naming ambiguities,
and they could lead to, precisely, the type of problem you are
describing.

And, it was *precisely* a naming ambiguity
in his hosts file which was giving him problems.


And, where exactly in that bit of wisdom is a suggestion of something to
look at? This is the point, just because you said there are certain
characteristics to networked environments where the names of things are
important, doesn't translate into something tangible to look at. Yet,
once again, you just can't stand to be told that your advice wasn't what
led me to my solution.
In that same post, I asked him :

How about something simple, like the TCP/IP stacks ?

...and requested more information by asking :

When you run applications on the localhosts, do the sites respond
quickly ?

But, he did not consider that important and did not reply.


Correct because there were no other applications running on localhost to
look at and "check your TCP/IP stacks" is again vauge and doesn't lead me
to anything specific to check. It wasn't until after I mentioned the
hosts file did you start trumpeting how you were right. It's easy to say
you were right, when you are saying things like, you've got a networking
problem, you've got a hardware problem or you've got an image problem.

That was *way* before ( 8 hours before )
George suggested that the OP check his hosts file

If he had been listening, instead of looking to fire back,
he could have solved his problem way earlier.


Not with the vauge information you were slinging.
Now, of course, he has to look good, and replies to Kevin that
I have "provided no constructive help in the process" and that
"ultimately coming up with the wrong answer" was what I did.


It feels so good to be right Juan, doesn't it?

Bollocks to that!

Juan T. Llibre, ASP.NET MVP
ASP.NET FAQ : http://asp.net.do/faq/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"JIMCO Software" <co*******@jimcosoftware.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
Kevin Spencer wrote:
> Juan has exhibited a certain amount of defensiveness and resentment
> concerning your attitude. In light of the facts I have enumerated,
> and in light of his tireless work to help others, I can understand
> the attitude. Perhaps you were unaware of these facts. That is
> understandable. You should be aware of them now. So, in light of
> these facts, my counsel would be the same as it has been. Let it go.
> Give the guy a break.

I have to add that I have corrected Juan a couple of times in this
group (without much tact on my part, I might add) and he has responded
graciously even though from his perspective, I'm just some guy who
showed up here all of a sudden.

--
Jim Cheshire
JIMCO Software
http://www.jimcosoftware.com



Nov 19 '05 #64
Before you go thinking how I must have done that to get you to read my post,
just consider that it might be possible to send a message from another
location.

Your analysis of this is right on par with your analysis of the rest of this
thread. Jump to conclusions without any facts.
"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:OC**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
Please don't change your address to force me to
have to read your never ending arguments.

*This* address has been plonked, too.

Juan T. Llibre, ASP.NET MVP
ASP.NET FAQ : http://asp.net.do/faq/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"Scott M." <No****@NoSpam.com> wrote in message
news:uV**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
You don't see how you can't seem to just accept that you didn't help me
from even YOUR last post?
My first *suggestion* to him was about hardware. That's true.


It took you 4 messages to "let go" of your "hardware" suggestion after
bickering with me about my specs. when I had told you hardware was ruled
out.
What *really* ticked him off was this comment by me :

Perhaps you haven't supplied the correct information,
or asked yourself the correct questions, or listened well enough.


No, actually what ticked me off what what I've been telling you all along
and what you continue to do right now, which is put words in my mouth and
come to assumptions that aren't true. Don't believe me? Just read what
you just wrote.
I followed that comment with this :

Networked environments are particularly sensitive to naming ambiguities,
and they could lead to, precisely, the type of problem you are
describing.

And, it was *precisely* a naming ambiguity
in his hosts file which was giving him problems.


And, where exactly in that bit of wisdom is a suggestion of something to
look at? This is the point, just because you said there are certain
characteristics to networked environments where the names of things are
important, doesn't translate into something tangible to look at. Yet,
once again, you just can't stand to be told that your advice wasn't what
led me to my solution.
In that same post, I asked him :

How about something simple, like the TCP/IP stacks ?

...and requested more information by asking :

When you run applications on the localhosts, do the sites respond
quickly ?

But, he did not consider that important and did not reply.


Correct because there were no other applications running on localhost to
look at and "check your TCP/IP stacks" is again vauge and doesn't lead me
to anything specific to check. It wasn't until after I mentioned the
hosts file did you start trumpeting how you were right. It's easy to say
you were right, when you are saying things like, you've got a networking
problem, you've got a hardware problem or you've got an image problem.

That was *way* before ( 8 hours before )
George suggested that the OP check his hosts file

If he had been listening, instead of looking to fire back,
he could have solved his problem way earlier.


Not with the vauge information you were slinging.
Now, of course, he has to look good, and replies to Kevin that
I have "provided no constructive help in the process" and that
"ultimately coming up with the wrong answer" was what I did.


It feels so good to be right Juan, doesn't it?

Bollocks to that!

Juan T. Llibre, ASP.NET MVP
ASP.NET FAQ : http://asp.net.do/faq/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"JIMCO Software" <co*******@jimcosoftware.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
Kevin Spencer wrote:
> Juan has exhibited a certain amount of defensiveness and resentment
> concerning your attitude. In light of the facts I have enumerated,
> and in light of his tireless work to help others, I can understand
> the attitude. Perhaps you were unaware of these facts. That is
> understandable. You should be aware of them now. So, in light of
> these facts, my counsel would be the same as it has been. Let it go.
> Give the guy a break.

I have to add that I have corrected Juan a couple of times in this
group (without much tact on my part, I might add) and he has responded
graciously even though from his perspective, I'm just some guy who
showed up here all of a sudden.

--
Jim Cheshire
JIMCO Software
http://www.jimcosoftware.com



Nov 19 '05 #65
I'm glad you found the problem in the hosts file - I was going to suggest it
was a network config issue. Just out of curiosity, what was it? Did they
point localhost to somewhere strange?

Nov 19 '05 #66
Yes, localhost was mis-directed. I'm not sure if this was just a typo or
something that meant something during the image testing phase, but simply
correcting it to 127.0.0.1 did the trick.
"Chuck Wagner" <Ch*********@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:D0**********************************@microsof t.com...
I'm glad you found the problem in the hosts file - I was going to suggest
it
was a network config issue. Just out of curiosity, what was it? Did they
point localhost to somewhere strange?

Nov 19 '05 #67
> It's really a shame that we have to dedicate so many posts
to explaining things which should be quite obvious, just
because someone has a distorted sense of what he is due.
What did I say I was due from you? Nothing. You are making things up now.
I've been here for years, before he suddenly appeared in all his "glory",
and I'll be here long after he stops wasting everybody's time with his
complaints.


Do you define "suddenly" as: for the last 4+ years? Again, you are
replacing fact with your ignorance. Did you do a NG search to see that I'm
haven't just sprung up here? No, because if you had, you'd know that your
last remark was just more untruths and comments without any prior knowldege
of what you speak.

I'd love to let this thread go, but I WILL NOT for one minute let you get
away with non-factual statements. If you want to make stuff up and call it
fact, go tell it to your local elementary school's kindergarden class,
because it won't work here.
Nov 19 '05 #68

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