IMPORTANT! 2.0 Login Control Has No Cancel Button

[clintonG]

This is an appeal for peer support sent to Microsoft as will be noted in
closing.

The Login control does not include a Cancel button.

The only option is to convert the Login control to a template which is not
such a bad thing in itself but it means all other controls in the
application must also be converted to templates to maintain a consistent UI.
So much for writing 70% less code when foolish morons release a control with
no cancel button.

So rather than simpy bitch without conducting myself responsibly I posted
the issue as a bug to MSDN Product Feedback and their reply follows...

Closed by Microsoft on 2005-08-31 at 12:14:05

Thank you for submitting this issue. At this stage in the Whidbey product
cycle, we're taking very few changes into the product. We have evaluated
this issue and will not be able to investigate it before release but we’ll
reconsider it for the next version of the product at a future date. To help
us better evaluate this issue, we would appreciate if you would send email
to we******@microsoft.com with the FDBK ID of this issue in the subject line
so we can contact you later, if necessary. For more information, please
refer to the announcement on the MSDN Product Feedback center at
http://lab.msdn.com/productfeedback.

So, I ask all that are considering using 2.0 to write we******@microsoft.com
using Bug ID: FDBK35347 as the subject and give them hell and demand that
this issue be resolved before RTM unless you want to waste all of your time
writing and modifying HTML and excessive coding required for events in all
of your controls that have been converted to templates in every one of your
applications until the next release of ASP.NET simply because some foolish
moron decided the Login button does not require a Cancel button.
<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/

[JIMCO Software]

clintonG wrote:

So, I ask all that are considering using 2.0 to write
we******@microsoft.com using Bug ID: FDBK35347 as the subject and
give them hell and demand that this issue be resolved before RTM
unless you want to waste all of your time writing and modifying HTML
and excessive coding required for events in all of your controls that
have been converted to templates in every one of your applications
until the next release of ASP.NET simply because some foolish moron
decided the Login button does not require a Cancel button.

Clinton,

There's no way this is going to be added before RTM period. 2.0 is in
feature lockdown. They're not going to add this feature because it creates
an opportunity for regression. If you've ever shipped software, you'll
understand that.

Personally I think it was pretty responsive of Microsoft to provide you with
a way to give your information so that you can be contacted later.

--
Jim Cheshire
JIMCO Software
http://www.jimcosoftware.com

FrontPage add-ins for FrontPage 2000 - 2003

[Damien]

clintonG wrote:

This is an appeal for peer support sent to Microsoft as will be noted in
closing.

The Login control does not include a Cancel button.

What do you expect the Cancel button to do? Is the behaviour you want
the only behaviour that one would expect, or are there various
possibilities? Not having played with this feature yet, is it possible
to have the login control on a normal page which serves normal content
(in which case Cancel makes no sense)?
The only option is to convert the Login control to a template which is not
such a bad thing in itself but it means all other controls in the
application must also be converted to templates to maintain a consistent UI.
So much for writing 70% less code when foolish morons release a control with
no cancel button.

So rather than simpy bitch without conducting myself responsibly I posted
the issue as a bug to MSDN Product Feedback and their reply follows...

Closed by Microsoft on 2005-08-31 at 12:14:05

Thank you for submitting this issue. At this stage in the Whidbey product
cycle, we're taking very few changes into the product. We have evaluated
this issue and will not be able to investigate it before release but we'll
reconsider it for the next version of the product at a future date. To help
us better evaluate this issue, we would appreciate if you would send email
to we******@microsoft.com with the FDBK ID of this issue in the subject line
so we can contact you later, if necessary. For more information, please
refer to the announcement on the MSDN Product Feedback center at
http://lab.msdn.com/productfeedback.

So, I ask all that are considering using 2.0 to write we******@microsoft.com
using Bug ID: FDBK35347 as the subject and give them hell and demand that
this issue be resolved before RTM unless you want to waste all of your time
writing and modifying HTML and excessive coding required for events in all
of your controls that have been converted to templates in every one of your
applications until the next release of ASP.NET simply because some foolish
moron decided the Login button does not require a Cancel button.
<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/

[clintonG]

As far as I've been able to determine the Login control is the only one that
has been FUBAR in this regard. A missing Cancel button requires the use of
the browser's back button to dismiss the Login. That breaks accessibility.
It also means developers have no direct access to the cancel event so all
kinds of extra code needs to be written.

Furthermore as I've stated, the only way to add our own Cancel button is to
convert the Login control to a template. Doing so breaks the consistency of
all other controls which include the Cancel button. Everything looks and
feels different. The only way to unify the application requires converting
each and every control in the entire application to a template.

When a control is converted to a template all we get is a bunch of HTML that
must be modified. The developer has to write all of his or her own event
handlers just like in 1.1 meaning because some stupid @sshole that did not
or would not do his job right and include a Cancel button in the Login
control has made everything Microsoft has said about the need to write less
code a BIG FAT LIE.

Please write the e-mail address and ask for this issue to be resolved before
the product is shipped.
<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/


"Damien" <Da*******************@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:11**********************@o13g2000cwo.googlegr oups.com...

clintonG wrote:

This is an appeal for peer support sent to Microsoft as will be noted in
closing.

The Login control does not include a Cancel button.

What do you expect the Cancel button to do? Is the behaviour you want
the only behaviour that one would expect, or are there various
possibilities? Not having played with this feature yet, is it possible
to have the login control on a normal page which serves normal content
(in which case Cancel makes no sense)?

The only option is to convert the Login control to a template which is
not
such a bad thing in itself but it means all other controls in the
application must also be converted to templates to maintain a consistent
UI.
So much for writing 70% less code when foolish morons release a control
with
no cancel button.

So rather than simpy bitch without conducting myself responsibly I posted
the issue as a bug to MSDN Product Feedback and their reply follows...

Closed by Microsoft on 2005-08-31 at 12:14:05

Thank you for submitting this issue. At this stage in the Whidbey product
cycle, we're taking very few changes into the product. We have evaluated
this issue and will not be able to investigate it before release but
we'll
reconsider it for the next version of the product at a future date. To
help
us better evaluate this issue, we would appreciate if you would send
email
to we******@microsoft.com with the FDBK ID of this issue in the subject
line
so we can contact you later, if necessary. For more information, please
refer to the announcement on the MSDN Product Feedback center at
http://lab.msdn.com/productfeedback.

So, I ask all that are considering using 2.0 to write
we******@microsoft.com
using Bug ID: FDBK35347 as the subject and give them hell and demand
that
this issue be resolved before RTM unless you want to waste all of your
time
writing and modifying HTML and excessive coding required for events in
all
of your controls that have been converted to templates in every one of
your
applications until the next release of ASP.NET simply because some
foolish
moron decided the Login button does not require a Cancel button.
<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/

[clintonG]

Lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way.
Send the e-mail and request a Cancel button.

<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/
"JIMCO Software" <co*******@jimcosoftware.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...

clintonG wrote:

So, I ask all that are considering using 2.0 to write
we******@microsoft.com using Bug ID: FDBK35347 as the subject and
give them hell and demand that this issue be resolved before RTM
unless you want to waste all of your time writing and modifying HTML
and excessive coding required for events in all of your controls that
have been converted to templates in every one of your applications
until the next release of ASP.NET simply because some foolish moron
decided the Login button does not require a Cancel button.

Clinton,

There's no way this is going to be added before RTM period. 2.0 is in
feature lockdown. They're not going to add this feature because it
creates an opportunity for regression. If you've ever shipped software,
you'll understand that.

Personally I think it was pretty responsive of Microsoft to provide you
with a way to give your information so that you can be contacted later.

--
Jim Cheshire
JIMCO Software
http://www.jimcosoftware.com

FrontPage add-ins for FrontPage 2000 - 2003

[Damien]

clintonG wrote:

As far as I've been able to determine the Login control is the only one that
has been FUBAR in this regard. A missing Cancel button requires the use of
the browser's back button to dismiss the Login. That breaks accessibility.
It also means developers have no direct access to the cancel event so all
kinds of extra code needs to be written.

Well, I've taken a look at the Login controls, and I honestly don't
think having a cancel button would make much sense.

It looks like a well designed set of controls for the style of site
which has both anonymous and membership content - so you'd tend to let
people login from any of the anonymous pages. Cancel wouldn't make much
sense in that situation.

About the only time that having Cancel would make much sense is if the
Login control is the sole content of your page - but even then, the
trend is to provide further information available to the client via
other links, and one of these links could return the user to the page
they came from. For instance, the login page of passport.com
(https://login.passport.net/ppsecure/uisecure.srf) doesn't provide a
cancel, and that entire site is dedicated to the purpose of logging on!
(Please note, I am not in any way affiliated with passport, just chose
to use them as an example)

So, instead of tilting at this particular windmill (which really isn't
going to change in 2.0), why not provide a better user experience
instead?

Damien

[clintonG]

<snip />

The Cancel button does provide the better user experience.
That's what Microsoft's User Interface Design Guidelines specify and make
perfectly clear and the fact that other user interfaces are for whatever
reason FU is not a sound rationale to justify continuing to do so with
others.

I'm asking for peer support to lead, follow or get out of the way.
Take your pick.

<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/

[Patrice]

I'm not sure what you meant by being forced to convert all controls in
templates ? You could perhaps also inherit from this control to add this
button by default ?

(as a side note I find also a bit strange to be able to "cancel" the login).

--
Patrice

"clintonG" <cs*********@REMOVETHISTEXTmetromilwaukee.com> a écrit dans le
message de news:eD*************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...

This is an appeal for peer support sent to Microsoft as will be noted in
closing.

The Login control does not include a Cancel button.

The only option is to convert the Login control to a template which is not
such a bad thing in itself but it means all other controls in the
application must also be converted to templates to maintain a consistent UI. So much for writing 70% less code when foolish morons release a control with no cancel button.

So rather than simpy bitch without conducting myself responsibly I posted
the issue as a bug to MSDN Product Feedback and their reply follows...

Closed by Microsoft on 2005-08-31 at 12:14:05

Thank you for submitting this issue. At this stage in the Whidbey product
cycle, we're taking very few changes into the product. We have evaluated
this issue and will not be able to investigate it before release but we'll
reconsider it for the next version of the product at a future date. To help us better evaluate this issue, we would appreciate if you would send email
to we******@microsoft.com with the FDBK ID of this issue in the subject line so we can contact you later, if necessary. For more information, please
refer to the announcement on the MSDN Product Feedback center at
http://lab.msdn.com/productfeedback.

So, I ask all that are considering using 2.0 to write we******@microsoft.com using Bug ID: FDBK35347 as the subject and give them hell and demand that
this issue be resolved before RTM unless you want to waste all of your time writing and modifying HTML and excessive coding required for events in all
of your controls that have been converted to templates in every one of your applications until the next release of ASP.NET simply because some foolish
moron decided the Login button does not require a Cancel button.
<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/

[JIMCO Software]

clintonG wrote:

When a control is converted to a template all we get is a bunch of
HTML that must be modified. The developer has to write all of his or
her own event handlers just like in 1.1 meaning because some stupid
@sshole that did not or would not do his job right and include a
Cancel button in the Login control has made everything Microsoft has
said about the need to write less code a BIG FAT LIE.

From my point of view, you have just destroyed any credibility you had and
illustrated a lack of understanding of ASP.NET 2.0 architecture.

--
Jim Cheshire
JIMCO Software
http://www.jimcosoftware.com

FrontPage add-ins for FrontPage 2000 - 2003

[clintonG]

Have you seen what happens when you convert a 2.0 control to a template?
Using templates throughout an entire site requires many days and perhaps
weeks of laborious coding and re-coding. While templates are very useful
Microsoft is selling ASP.NET 2.0 claiming this length of time to market for
web applications is no longer neccessary.

AFIK inheritence only allows us to access methods and properties of a class
which are already present. Perhaps you meant to suggest over-riding the
Login control which in any event would still require writing a lot of HTML
and code to wire up all of the events.

Microsoft has published User Interface Guidelines for Windows applications
which is where I learned how Microsoft expects developers to do things right
and now we're wastig time arguing about doing the right thing.

I'm asking for peer support to do the right thing because it is not strange
by any means to decide not to login for whatever reason. That is exactly why
the Cancel button was devised in the first place. Hello?

<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/
"Patrice" <no****@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:O0**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...

I'm not sure what you meant by being forced to convert all controls in
templates ? You could perhaps also inherit from this control to add this
button by default ?

(as a side note I find also a bit strange to be able to "cancel" the
login).

--
Patrice

"clintonG" <cs*********@REMOVETHISTEXTmetromilwaukee.com> a écrit dans le
message de news:eD*************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...

This is an appeal for peer support sent to Microsoft as will be noted in
closing.

The Login control does not include a Cancel button.

The only option is to convert the Login control to a template which is
not
such a bad thing in itself but it means all other controls in the
application must also be converted to templates to maintain a consistent

UI.

So much for writing 70% less code when foolish morons release a control

with

no cancel button.

So rather than simpy bitch without conducting myself responsibly I posted
the issue as a bug to MSDN Product Feedback and their reply follows...

Closed by Microsoft on 2005-08-31 at 12:14:05

Thank you for submitting this issue. At this stage in the Whidbey product
cycle, we're taking very few changes into the product. We have evaluated
this issue and will not be able to investigate it before release but
we'll
reconsider it for the next version of the product at a future date. To

help

us better evaluate this issue, we would appreciate if you would send
email
to we******@microsoft.com with the FDBK ID of this issue in the subject

line

so we can contact you later, if necessary. For more information, please
refer to the announcement on the MSDN Product Feedback center at
http://lab.msdn.com/productfeedback.

So, I ask all that are considering using 2.0 to write

we******@microsoft.com

using Bug ID: FDBK35347 as the subject and give them hell and demand
that
this issue be resolved before RTM unless you want to waste all of your

time

writing and modifying HTML and excessive coding required for events in
all
of your controls that have been converted to templates in every one of

your

applications until the next release of ASP.NET simply because some
foolish
moron decided the Login button does not require a Cancel button.
<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/

[Juan T. Llibre]

re:

Microsoft has published User Interface Guidelines for Windows applications
Web applications are not Windows applications.
Web applications don't have to conform to Windows application guidelines.

re: it is not strange by any means to decide not to login for whatever reason. That is
exactly why the Cancel button was devised in the first place.
When I decide not to continue with a login to a web application,
I either close the browser, or write in -or select from Favorites-
a new page address to go to.

I really don't understand your obsession with the
need to have a Cancel button in a web login procedure.

What would Cancel accomplish in a web environment ?
Maybe you could explain why you think it's essential to have one ?


Juan T. Llibre, ASP.NET MVP
ASP.NET FAQ : http://asp.net.do/faq/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"clintonG" <cs*********@REMOVETHISTEXTmetromilwaukee.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl... Have you seen what happens when you convert a 2.0 control to a template?
Using templates throughout an entire site requires many days and perhaps weeks of
laborious coding and re-coding. While templates are very useful Microsoft is selling
ASP.NET 2.0 claiming this length of time to market for web applications is no longer
neccessary.

AFIK inheritence only allows us to access methods and properties of a class which are
already present. Perhaps you meant to suggest over-riding the Login control which in any
event would still require writing a lot of HTML and code to wire up all of the events.

Microsoft has published User Interface Guidelines for Windows applications which is
where I learned how Microsoft expects developers to do things right and now we're wastig
time arguing about doing the right thing.

I'm asking for peer support to do the right thing because it is not strange by any means
to decide not to login for whatever reason. That is exactly why the Cancel button was
devised in the first place. Hello?

<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/
"Patrice" <no****@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:O0**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...

I'm not sure what you meant by being forced to convert all controls in
templates ? You could perhaps also inherit from this control to add this
button by default ?

(as a side note I find also a bit strange to be able to "cancel" the login).

--
Patrice

"clintonG" <cs*********@REMOVETHISTEXTmetromilwaukee.com> a écrit dans le
message de news:eD*************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...

This is an appeal for peer support sent to Microsoft as will be noted in
closing.

The Login control does not include a Cancel button.

The only option is to convert the Login control to a template which is not
such a bad thing in itself but it means all other controls in the
application must also be converted to templates to maintain a consistent

UI.

So much for writing 70% less code when foolish morons release a control

with

no cancel button.

So rather than simpy bitch without conducting myself responsibly I posted
the issue as a bug to MSDN Product Feedback and their reply follows...

Closed by Microsoft on 2005-08-31 at 12:14:05

Thank you for submitting this issue. At this stage in the Whidbey product
cycle, we're taking very few changes into the product. We have evaluated
this issue and will not be able to investigate it before release but we'll
reconsider it for the next version of the product at a future date. To

help

us better evaluate this issue, we would appreciate if you would send email
to we******@microsoft.com with the FDBK ID of this issue in the subject

line

so we can contact you later, if necessary. For more information, please
refer to the announcement on the MSDN Product Feedback center at
http://lab.msdn.com/productfeedback.

So, I ask all that are considering using 2.0 to write

we******@microsoft.com

using Bug ID: FDBK35347 as the subject and give them hell and demand that
this issue be resolved before RTM unless you want to waste all of your

time

writing and modifying HTML and excessive coding required for events in all
of your controls that have been converted to templates in every one of

your

applications until the next release of ASP.NET simply because some foolish
moron decided the Login button does not require a Cancel button.
<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/

[Damien]

clintonG wrote:

<snip />

The Cancel button does provide the better user experience.
That's what Microsoft's User Interface Design Guidelines specify and make
perfectly clear and the fact that other user interfaces are for whatever
reason FU is not a sound rationale to justify continuing to do so with
others.

The Microsoft User Interface Design Guidelines are for Windows *Forms*
applications. Once you're into ASP.NET, you're serving markup to one of
a number of possible browsers, which could be running on just about any
operating system you can think of. What do the Linux User Interface
Design Guidelines say? What are you going to do when they're in
conflict with Microsofts?

So, Don ClintonG, what are you going to do? Learn to live with it or
carry on ranting?

Damien

[JIMCO Software]

clintonG wrote:

Have you seen what happens when you convert a 2.0 control to a
template? Using templates throughout an entire site requires many
days and perhaps weeks of laborious coding and re-coding. While
templates are very useful Microsoft is selling ASP.NET 2.0 claiming
this length of time to market for web applications is no longer
neccessary.

That's not true. Microsoft is saying that the amount of code that you have
to write has been significantly decreased. Anyone who's worked with 2.0 for
any length of time knows that claim to be true!

Microsoft has published User Interface Guidelines for Windows
applications which is where I learned how Microsoft expects
developers to do things right and now we're wastig time arguing about
doing the right thing.

If you want to follow those guidelines, you're in the wrong newsgroup and
working with the wrong type of application. There is a tremendous
difference between ASP.NET Web applications and Windows applications.
I'm asking for peer support to do the right thing because it is not
strange by any means to decide not to login for whatever reason. That
is exactly why the Cancel button was devised in the first place.
Hello?

You still haven't explained what this Cancel button is supposed to do! If,
for example, I have a Login control on my home page and you decide you don't
want to log in, what is clicking the Cancel button supposed to do?

If you ask me, your whole idea doesn't even make any sense and I once again
assert that Microsoft was quite generous asking for your contact information
so that they can discuss this idea with you at a later date.

--
Jim Cheshire
JIMCO Software
http://www.jimcosoftware.com

FrontPage add-ins for FrontPage 2000 - 2003

[clintonG]

<snip />

The most basic use of the Cancel button is primarily supportive of
accessibility and useability. While there may be an exception I have not
seen yet it seems all of the other controls support a Cancel button in the
UI which is the way a control is supposed to be created.

The only way to dismiss a Login requires the use of the back button on the
browser or provide some other unexpected navigation in the Login page which
a blind user would have to tab around 'poking and hoping' to find something
useful. Screen readers do not tab backwards and as you know there is no way
to assign the focus to the back button.

Microsoft claimed 2.0 would support section508 accessibility but in practice
this is proving to be another marketing lie.

<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/

[Juan T. Llibre]

re:

Microsoft claimed 2.0 would support section 508 accessibility but in practice this is
proving to be another marketing lie.
Clinton,

I looked at :
http://www.section508.gov/index.cfm?...=Content&ID=12
and the word "Cancel" doesn't even appear in that document.

Can you be a bit more specific ?

Are you sure that the inclusion of a Cancel button is within
section 508's specifications ?


Juan T. Llibre, ASP.NET MVP
ASP.NET FAQ : http://asp.net.do/faq/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español : http://asp.net.do/foros/
======================================
"clintonG" <cs*********@REMOVETHISTEXTmetromilwaukee.com> wrote in message
news:uF****************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl... <snip />

The most basic use of the Cancel button is primarily supportive of accessibility and
useability. While there may be an exception I have not seen yet it seems all of the
other controls support a Cancel button in the UI which is the way a control is supposed
to be created.

The only way to dismiss a Login requires the use of the back button on the browser or
provide some other unexpected navigation in the Login page which a blind user would have
to tab around 'poking and hoping' to find something useful. Screen readers do not tab
backwards and as you know there is no way to assign the focus to the back button.

Microsoft claimed 2.0 would support section508 accessibility but in practice this is
proving to be another marketing lie.

<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/