It seems that anyone can put anything on their resume and refer to
themselves as a "senior Web developer." What are some clues that can be used
by an IT manager during a hiring process to differentiate truly proficient
Web developers from the "less-than" proficient Web developers?
Thank You! 18 1395
It really depends what you are looking for. Breadth and depth are two key
things but todays develoreps are typically more than just code crunchers. A
senior developer should ideally have used more than one language on more
than one platform, understand HCI concepts, have an appreciation of the WC3
consortium and its recommendations, can understand DB schemas and input to
the DB design process, be capable of justifying a design approach and
understand the implications of a technology choice, can do stuff like build
servers and read network diagrams, can liaise directly with the customer,
understands security. Language is the least of these I would look for
unless recruiting for a very specific code cruncher to fill a development
hole.
--
Regards
John Timney
Microsoft Regional Director
Microsoft MVP
"Jeff S" <no****@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:O3**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl... It seems that anyone can put anything on their resume and refer to themselves as a "senior Web developer." What are some clues that can be
used by an IT manager during a hiring process to differentiate truly proficient Web developers from the "less-than" proficient Web developers?
Thank You!
On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 09:32:58 -0700, "Jeff S" <no****@nospam.com> wrote: It seems that anyone can put anything on their resume and refer to themselves as a "senior Web developer." What are some clues that can be used by an IT manager during a hiring process to differentiate truly proficient Web developers from the "less-than" proficient Web developers?
Thank You!
Examples of their work. Source code. Get a currently employeed
programmer to interview them: pose complex problems that they should
know how to deal with and analyze their responses. I don't think an
IT Manager would be capable of interviewing senior technical staff
unless their background is from the same technical field.
-Adam
Tech interview is always nice. You can easily tell when someone is really
BSing their way through.
If they can show you some of their work, that works, as well.
--
Gregory A. Beamer
MVP; MCP: +I, SE, SD, DBA
************************************************
Think Outside the Box!
************************************************
"Jeff S" <no****@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:O3**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl... It seems that anyone can put anything on their resume and refer to themselves as a "senior Web developer." What are some clues that can be
used by an IT manager during a hiring process to differentiate truly proficient Web developers from the "less-than" proficient Web developers?
Thank You!
Jeff S wrote: It seems that anyone can put anything on their resume and refer to themselves as a "senior Web developer." What are some clues that can be used by an IT manager during a hiring process to differentiate truly proficient Web developers from the "less-than" proficient Web developers?
Thank You!
It's tricky; you have to have someone on your side that has the tech
knowledge to do the techie part of the interview. They need to ask some
questions about the general concepts of .NET, etc. (I assume you're
looking at .NET since you're in this newsgroup), to make sure they
understand the basics, then go upwards in difficulty from there to see
where their limits are at (as high as you are interested for your needs).
Also need the business part of the interview as well; I recommend doing
them together (multiple interviewers at once), so you can both get
feedback even though the content may only interest one person at one
time. Need to see how they work, what are their problem-solving skills,
how they handle adversity, etc. Some of this is info both interviewers
will want to know....
Beware of things like 'well, I did this training, or read this book, so
I know .NET'; hard experience is what you like to see. These phrases
are indicators they aren't prepared for real-life work with it (at a
senior level). If you have a very basic opening where no experience
would be OK, then that's fine (I'm not saying anyone w/ 0 experience
can't find a job :) ).
So hopefully you've got someone who can help you filter out the tech
side of it. I might recommend initial phone conversations (of shorter
length) to followup on interesting resumes; unfortunately resume
screening does not work in and of itself, as people have gotten 'better'
at using them to sell themselves up, the interview is where you
find all the details, but a full-blown interview takes up time.
--
Craig Deelsnyder
Microsoft MVP - ASP/ASP.NET
Thank you all for the helpful responses so far. Now a follow-up question:
how heavily should formal education or certifications be weighed in general?
Understanding that having a certification is only one characteristic of some
candidates, which certifications are more meaningful than others? I've seen
people glorify the MCSD certification, but I'm aware of others (e.g, A+).
What does certification really mean (if anything) - in your opinion? What
about a degree in computer science? Looking for opinions.
Thanks You Again!
"Jeff S" <no****@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:O3**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl... It seems that anyone can put anything on their resume and refer to themselves as a "senior Web developer." What are some clues that can be
used by an IT manager during a hiring process to differentiate truly proficient Web developers from the "less-than" proficient Web developers?
Thank You!
If you were interviewing an artist for a graphics position, what would you
want? Samples of their work. If you were hiring an architect to design a
house, what would you want? Examples of their previous work. If I am hiring
a developer, that's the number one thing I want to see: samples of their
work. It's really pretty easy to get an idea of the level of competence of a
programmer from looking at the code and design they have done in the past.
--
HTH,
Kevin Spencer
..Net Developer
Microsoft MVP
Big things are made up
of lots of little things.
"Jeff S" <no****@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:O3**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl... It seems that anyone can put anything on their resume and refer to themselves as a "senior Web developer." What are some clues that can be
used by an IT manager during a hiring process to differentiate truly proficient Web developers from the "less-than" proficient Web developers?
Thank You!
On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:13:47 -0700, "Jeff S" <no****@nospam.com> wrote: Thank you all for the helpful responses so far. Now a follow-up question: how heavily should formal education or certifications be weighed in general? Understanding that having a certification is only one characteristic of some candidates, which certifications are more meaningful than others? I've seen people glorify the MCSD certification, but I'm aware of others (e.g, A+). What does certification really mean (if anything) - in your opinion? What about a degree in computer science? Looking for opinions.
IMHO formal training is BS. Ever been too school? Its highly
dependant on the teacher. In my experience, the truely skilled people
are the ones who can do critical thinking and figure stuff out on
their own. This is the age of the www. Most problems and information
(especially in IT) is available on the web. Experience is a big help.
Books hardly teach you about real life. Books never insist you have a
budget and deal with ideals only. School is a money grab.
Experience with the specific platforms you are using is what I would
weigh high. Anyone can't get an 'A' in a course, anyone can study for
a test and pass. Not everyone can put that information to use and
expand on it on their own. Another thing that would be beneficial is
alternate backgrounds. What industry are you in? Who will this
person have to communicate with? Does that person fit into the grand
scheme of the business? Do they express the need to complete tasks
and improve themselves and their department?
-Adam
Let me ask you this:
Would you let a someone operate on you who has no formal training?
Would you drive on a bridge designed by a person who read web pages on
bridge design?
Would you let someone who studied law books at the library defend you
in court?
I'd never hire somebody just because they have a degree, but I'd never
discount formal training as B.S.
--
Scott http://www.OdeToCode.com
On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 18:37:31 GMT, as******@inlandkwpp.com wrote: On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:13:47 -0700, "Jeff S" <no****@nospam.com> wrote:
Thank you all for the helpful responses so far. Now a follow-up question: how heavily should formal education or certifications be weighed in general? Understanding that having a certification is only one characteristic of some candidates, which certifications are more meaningful than others? I've seen people glorify the MCSD certification, but I'm aware of others (e.g, A+). What does certification really mean (if anything) - in your opinion? What about a degree in computer science? Looking for opinions.
IMHO formal training is BS. Ever been too school? highly dependant on the teacher. In my experience, the truely skilled people are the ones who can do critical thinking and figure stuff out on their own. This is the age of the www. Most problems and information (especially in IT) is available on the web. Experience is a big help. Books hardly teach you about real life. Books never insist you have a budget and deal with ideals only. School is a money grab.
Experience with the specific platforms you are using is what I would weigh high. Anyone can't get an 'A' in a course, anyone can study for a test and pass. Not everyone can put that information to use and expand on it on their own. Another thing that would be beneficial is alternate backgrounds. What industry are you in? Who will this person have to communicate with? Does that person fit into the grand scheme of the business? Do they express the need to complete tasks and improve themselves and their department?
-Adam
"Scott Allen" <bitmask@[nospam].fred.net> wrote in message
news:to********************************@4ax.com... Let me ask you this:
Would you let a someone operate on you who has no formal training?
Would you drive on a bridge designed by a person who read web pages on bridge design?
Would you let someone who studied law books at the library defend you in court?
I'd never hire somebody just because they have a degree, but I'd never discount formal training as B.S.
Ok, but would you allow me to substitute 23 years of experience for a
Bachelors degree?
--
John Saunders
johnwsaundersiii at hotmail
On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 15:10:54 -0400, Scott Allen
<bitmask@[nospam].fred.net> wrote: Let me ask you this:
Would you let a someone operate on you who has no formal training?
If they have operated before and have a good history of doing it.
Would you drive on a bridge designed by a person who read web pages on bridge design?
If they've built a bridge similar to the one i'm driving and it works.
Would you let someone who studied law books at the library defend you in court?
If've they've won similar cases
I'd never hire somebody just because they have a degree, but I'd never discount formal training as B.S.
They you will hire a book learned person who potentially has no real
world know how or experience.
-Adam They you will hire a book learned person who potentially has no real world know how or experience.
I misread your quote. But yes, IMHO formal training (unless you know
the specific teacher and they are known to be good) is BS. A lot of
the teachers I've heard of or had myself are there to get paid or
there to research: teaching is just something they do on the side.
-Adam
As someone with a bunch of certifications (MCSD, MCDBA, MCSE/A) and over 10
years of experience, I can say that there is absolutely no substitute for
real-world experience. I would *gladly* trade all those certs for an
additional 5 years of in-the-trenches experience. As a consultant, moving
around among many large corporations and having participated with dozens of
IT personnel on many different projects in many industries, my observation
is that formal education (PhD in computer science) primarily serves to
unrealistically inflate expectations of some non technical managers a well
as of one's own abilities (the one holding the degree). Knowing how and why
some sorting algorithm saves a few cpu cycles over an alternative algorithm
won't bail you out of very many real-world situations. Knowing the
mathematical underpinnings of relational database theory won't help one to
decide the extent to which to normalize a database design in a real-world
implementation. Not to discount formal education though... I just think
formal education should not by itself automatically equate to competence (or
even the likelihood of competence) in the workplace.
"Scott Allen" <bitmask@[nospam].fred.net> wrote in message
news:to********************************@4ax.com... Let me ask you this:
Would you let a someone operate on you who has no formal training?
Would you drive on a bridge designed by a person who read web pages on bridge design?
Would you let someone who studied law books at the library defend you in court?
I'd never hire somebody just because they have a degree, but I'd never discount formal training as B.S.
-- Scott http://www.OdeToCode.com
On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 18:37:31 GMT, as******@inlandkwpp.com wrote:
On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:13:47 -0700, "Jeff S" <no****@nospam.com> wrote:
Thank you all for the helpful responses so far. Now a follow-up
question:how heavily should formal education or certifications be weighed in
general?Understanding that having a certification is only one characteristic of
somecandidates, which certifications are more meaningful than others? I've
seenpeople glorify the MCSD certification, but I'm aware of others (e.g,
A+).What does certification really mean (if anything) - in your opinion?
Whatabout a degree in computer science? Looking for opinions.
IMHO formal training is BS. Ever been too school? highly dependant on the teacher. In my experience, the truely skilled people are the ones who can do critical thinking and figure stuff out on their own. This is the age of the www. Most problems and information (especially in IT) is available on the web. Experience is a big help. Books hardly teach you about real life. Books never insist you have a budget and deal with ideals only. School is a money grab.
Experience with the specific platforms you are using is what I would weigh high. Anyone can't get an 'A' in a course, anyone can study for a test and pass. Not everyone can put that information to use and expand on it on their own. Another thing that would be beneficial is alternate backgrounds. What industry are you in? Who will this person have to communicate with? Does that person fit into the grand scheme of the business? Do they express the need to complete tasks and improve themselves and their department?
-Adam
I have my own personal opinion about that one...
The world is going to an increasingly-higher level every day. However,
schools usually teach low-level language techniques.
For example, 10 years ago you might have been hot stuff if you knew how to
navigate around within a text file, keep track of the numbers, don't be off
by 1, etc. However, now you're only approaching warm if you know the best
way to design a database and then code the business logic in the most
extensible and polymorphic way to fit in with our n-tier application.
With that said, the school/certification methods of syntax and very specific
problem solving (i.e. sort this array of integers) are slowly drifting away
from this new age of big-picture, rapid decision processes.
Now having a degree in Computer Science may not be as valuable to a company
as having enough experience to not make wrong decisions in the development
cycle.
Brandon
"Jeff S" <no****@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:%2***************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl... Thank you all for the helpful responses so far. Now a follow-up question: how heavily should formal education or certifications be weighed in
general? Understanding that having a certification is only one characteristic of
some candidates, which certifications are more meaningful than others? I've
seen people glorify the MCSD certification, but I'm aware of others (e.g, A+). What does certification really mean (if anything) - in your opinion? What about a degree in computer science? Looking for opinions.
Thanks You Again!
"Jeff S" <no****@nospam.com> wrote in message news:O3**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl... It seems that anyone can put anything on their resume and refer to themselves as a "senior Web developer." What are some clues that can be used by an IT manager during a hiring process to differentiate truly
proficient Web developers from the "less-than" proficient Web developers?
Thank You!
Oh, absolutely.
--
Scott
On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:29:37 -0400, "John Saunders"
<jo**************@notcoldmail.com> wrote: "Scott Allen" <bitmask@[nospam].fred.net> wrote in message news:to********************************@4ax.com.. . Let me ask you this:
Would you let a someone operate on you who has no formal training?
Would you drive on a bridge designed by a person who read web pages on bridge design?
Would you let someone who studied law books at the library defend you in court?
I'd never hire somebody just because they have a degree, but I'd never discount formal training as B.S.
Ok, but would you allow me to substitute 23 years of experience for a Bachelors degree?
--
Scott http://www.OdeToCode.com
Kevin Spencer wrote: If you were interviewing an artist for a graphics position, what would you want? Samples of their work. If you were hiring an architect to design a house, what would you want? Examples of their previous work. If I am hiring a developer, that's the number one thing I want to see: samples of their work. It's really pretty easy to get an idea of the level of competence of a programmer from looking at the code and design they have done in the past.
Unfortunately, the only problem is the work is not always legally
viewable (or able to be shared). I am a perfect example: there are no
pieces of work I can show anyone; it's all covered under
confidentiality, or are not accessible by the public. The one internet
site (public site, that is) that I did is now defunct (and 5 years old)....
But I've done some really hardcore stuff in 7 years. All you can do is
ask me to describe things and see how 'good it sounds', there's no
hard-proof to look at.
--
Craig Deelsnyder
Microsoft MVP - ASP/ASP.NET
There name should be DalePres.
DalePres
"Jeff S" <no****@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:O3**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl... It seems that anyone can put anything on their resume and refer to themselves as a "senior Web developer." What are some clues that can be
used by an IT manager during a hiring process to differentiate truly proficient Web developers from the "less-than" proficient Web developers?
Thank You!
Hi Craig,
If I were considering you for a deveoper position, your lack of code to show
me would be your problem, not mine. And a problem is just that: a problem,
to be solved. A good developer is a problem-solver. I would still expect to
see samples.
--
HTH,
Kevin Spencer
..Net Developer
Microsoft MVP
Big things are made up
of lots of little things.
"Craig Deelsnyder" <cdeelsny@NO_SPAM_4_MEyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:#x**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl... Kevin Spencer wrote:
If you were interviewing an artist for a graphics position, what would
you want? Samples of their work. If you were hiring an architect to design a house, what would you want? Examples of their previous work. If I am
hiring a developer, that's the number one thing I want to see: samples of their work. It's really pretty easy to get an idea of the level of competence
of a programmer from looking at the code and design they have done in the
past. Unfortunately, the only problem is the work is not always legally viewable (or able to be shared). I am a perfect example: there are no pieces of work I can show anyone; it's all covered under confidentiality, or are not accessible by the public. The one internet site (public site, that is) that I did is now defunct (and 5 years
old).... But I've done some really hardcore stuff in 7 years. All you can do is ask me to describe things and see how 'good it sounds', there's no hard-proof to look at.
-- Craig Deelsnyder Microsoft MVP - ASP/ASP.NET
Formal education, as in a Computer Science degree, might be a little
helpful, as it displays an immersion in the theories of computing, and a
level of discipline. Trade Schools and certifications are no means of
determining competence in programming. Trade schools give budding developers
a small degree of understanding, and a quick intro to the basic principles
of development, but not enough to make a developer out of someone, only
enough for a start. Certifications demonstrate the ability to study a known
set of questions and pass a test. I have seen more know-nothings with long
strings of letters after their names than I will ever want to in my life. I
would go so far as to say that Certifications are almost a DIS-qualifier for
a programmer. They tend to imply (in my experience) that the candidate is
more interested in the knee-jerk first impressions of people who don't
really know what they are doing, in order to get a job.
Personally, I've never had the time (to waste) to get any certificates, and
I'm self-trained. But Bill Gates falls into that category as well. Geeks
rule.
--
IMHO,
Kevin Spencer
..Net Developer
Microsoft MVP
Big things are made up
of lots of little things.
"Jeff S" <no****@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:#L*************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl... Thank you all for the helpful responses so far. Now a follow-up question: how heavily should formal education or certifications be weighed in
general? Understanding that having a certification is only one characteristic of
some candidates, which certifications are more meaningful than others? I've
seen people glorify the MCSD certification, but I'm aware of others (e.g, A+). What does certification really mean (if anything) - in your opinion? What about a degree in computer science? Looking for opinions.
Thanks You Again!
"Jeff S" <no****@nospam.com> wrote in message news:O3**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl... It seems that anyone can put anything on their resume and refer to themselves as a "senior Web developer." What are some clues that can be used by an IT manager during a hiring process to differentiate truly
proficient Web developers from the "less-than" proficient Web developers?
Thank You!
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