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VB .NET vs C#

P: n/a
Does anyone work for companies that actually implement both VB and C#? I
know that you can do this in theory, I just find it hard to imagine that a
company would split its programming technologies like that.

Of course now with the CLR there doesn't seem to be any performance benefit
to using C# over VB, and VB I think is an "easier" language to pick up. I
actually wonder if the salaries between vb.net and c# will balance out a
little now since the language doesn't mean as much anymore.

I personally am a VB developer moved into asp .net / vb .net. I've been
considering going ahead and learning C# as well. I have only academic
experience with C++, but it is enough that I can read c# examples and
convert them to vb so I don't think this is a big deal for me to pick up the
new language. Just more wondering if I should even bother.


Nov 17 '05 #1
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34 Replies


P: n/a
If you're on the job hunt, you'll increase your chances of landing a job by
being able to say that you know both languages instead of just one.
Then again there's something to be said for being a specialist. There is
only so much time to learn. You may not want to become a jack of all trades
but master of none.

--
I hope this helps,
Steve C. Orr, MCSD
http://Steve.Orr.net
"Eric Wise" <NO*****@pica.army.milSPAM> wrote in message
news:ex**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
Does anyone work for companies that actually implement both VB and C#? I
know that you can do this in theory, I just find it hard to imagine that a
company would split its programming technologies like that.

Of course now with the CLR there doesn't seem to be any performance benefit to using C# over VB, and VB I think is an "easier" language to pick up. I
actually wonder if the salaries between vb.net and c# will balance out a
little now since the language doesn't mean as much anymore.

I personally am a VB developer moved into asp .net / vb .net. I've been
considering going ahead and learning C# as well. I have only academic
experience with C++, but it is enough that I can read c# examples and
convert them to vb so I don't think this is a big deal for me to pick up the new language. Just more wondering if I should even bother.

Nov 17 '05 #2

P: n/a
I worked recently at a company that dropped VB.NET in favor of C#. We
dropped VB.NET becuase of the amount of code that VB.NET required to do
some amazingly simple things (which, btw, is something that even MSFT has
acknowledged and on the roadmap, have said they will *fix*). Knowing both
has helped me, but given the choice, I would have never picked up VB at
all...

Just in general, I have found that C# is easier to follow and much more
logical and concise than VB is. Not to mention... XML Documnetation...
Plus, as many of us know... never rely on MSFT to actually stick to a
roadmap for anything. Just because one document says that this *feature*
will be in the next version, don't think that there won't be another one
that denies it. ;)

(Just think back to the release of WinME, you know, the revolutionary OS
that was supposed to be entirely 32-bit based and stable? ;) )

Bill P.

On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 16:05:24 -0400, Eric Wise <NO*****@pica.army.milSPAM>
wrote:
Does anyone work for companies that actually implement both VB and C#? I
know that you can do this in theory, I just find it hard to imagine that
a
company would split its programming technologies like that.

Of course now with the CLR there doesn't seem to be any performance
benefit
to using C# over VB, and VB I think is an "easier" language to pick up.
I
actually wonder if the salaries between vb.net and c# will balance out a
little now since the language doesn't mean as much anymore.

I personally am a VB developer moved into asp .net / vb .net. I've been
considering going ahead and learning C# as well. I have only academic
experience with C++, but it is enough that I can read c# examples and
convert them to vb so I don't think this is a big deal for me to pick up
the
new language. Just more wondering if I should even bother.



--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
Nov 17 '05 #3

P: n/a
VB.NET is a little more verbose if that's what you mean. But that also
makes the code more readable and self documenting. (Although I'm still glad
VB.NET will be getting the XML documentation feature in the next version.)
Just because the code is a little more verbose doesn't necessarily mean you
have to do more typing. The VS.NET editor is more friendly with VB.NET than
C# and will write much of the code for you.

--
I hope this helps,
Steve C. Orr, MCSD
http://Steve.Orr.net
"Bill Priess" <no*****@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:oprs60xlkfcimqky@localhost...
I worked recently at a company that dropped VB.NET in favor of C#. We
dropped VB.NET becuase of the amount of code that VB.NET required to do
some amazingly simple things (which, btw, is something that even MSFT has
acknowledged and on the roadmap, have said they will *fix*). Knowing both
has helped me, but given the choice, I would have never picked up VB at
all...

Just in general, I have found that C# is easier to follow and much more
logical and concise than VB is. Not to mention... XML Documnetation...
Plus, as many of us know... never rely on MSFT to actually stick to a
roadmap for anything. Just because one document says that this *feature*
will be in the next version, don't think that there won't be another one
that denies it. ;)

(Just think back to the release of WinME, you know, the revolutionary OS
that was supposed to be entirely 32-bit based and stable? ;) )

Bill P.

On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 16:05:24 -0400, Eric Wise <NO*****@pica.army.milSPAM>
wrote:
Does anyone work for companies that actually implement both VB and C#? I know that you can do this in theory, I just find it hard to imagine that
a
company would split its programming technologies like that.

Of course now with the CLR there doesn't seem to be any performance
benefit
to using C# over VB, and VB I think is an "easier" language to pick up.
I
actually wonder if the salaries between vb.net and c# will balance out a
little now since the language doesn't mean as much anymore.

I personally am a VB developer moved into asp .net / vb .net. I've been
considering going ahead and learning C# as well. I have only academic
experience with C++, but it is enough that I can read c# examples and
convert them to vb so I don't think this is a big deal for me to pick up
the
new language. Just more wondering if I should even bother.



--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

Nov 17 '05 #4

P: n/a
>Now that's efficiency.

And in the end... that is what is important. :)
Efficiency and quality.

C# or VB.NET... I choose vb.net. Coding less and do the same thing? Why not?
:)

I'll have less OverTime on the end of the month :)

Joao Cardoso (MVP dotNET)
================================================== =====
[LusoCoders]- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lusocoders/
[PontoNetPT]- http://www.programando.net/regras.aspx
jj***@acinet.pt.nospam - www.acinet.pt
================================================== =====
Nov 17 '05 #5

P: n/a
"Steve C. Orr, MCSD" <St***@Orr.net> wrote in message news:<e5**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl>...

I'd be genuinely interested to see some examples of tasks that can be
performed more quickly in VB.

Thanks,

John

PS. Although, of course, it does save you all that time declaring your
variables.... (wry grin)
With VB.NET you can develop web applications faster than you can with C#.
Now that's efficiency.

--
I hope this helps,
Steve C. Orr, MCSD
http://Steve.Orr.net
"Mark Heimonen" <ma***@adiaim.com> wrote in message
news:eD**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
Our company has developed mostly in VB.NET, but our latest projects are
being written in C#. We have projects that are half VB/half C#.
Personally, I'm starting to use C# whenever I can. It just seems more
efficient to me.

There's a new roadmap available:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/pr...o/roadmap.aspx

It seems like C# is becoming a more "Advanced" language, while vb.net is
being targetted towards non-coders. True, the capabilities of both
languages are very similar, but I would recommend making the switch if it

is
at all possible.

-Mark
"Steve C. Orr, MCSD" <St***@Orr.net> wrote in message
news:ub**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
If you're on the job hunt, you'll increase your chances of landing a job by being able to say that you know both languages instead of just one.
Then again there's something to be said for being a specialist. There is
only so much time to learn. You may not want to become a jack of all trades but master of none.

--
I hope this helps,
Steve C. Orr, MCSD
http://Steve.Orr.net
"Eric Wise" <NO*****@pica.army.milSPAM> wrote in message
news:ex**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> Does anyone work for companies that actually implement both VB and C#? I > know that you can do this in theory, I just find it hard to imagine that
a > company would split its programming technologies like that.
>
> Of course now with the CLR there doesn't seem to be any performance benefit > to using C# over VB, and VB I think is an "easier" language to pick up.
I > actually wonder if the salaries between vb.net and c# will balance out a > little now since the language doesn't mean as much anymore.
>
> I personally am a VB developer moved into asp .net / vb .net. I've been > considering going ahead and learning C# as well. I have only academic
> experience with C++, but it is enough that I can read c# examples and
> convert them to vb so I don't think this is a big deal for me to pick up

the > new language. Just more wondering if I should even bother.
>
>
>
>


Nov 17 '05 #6

P: n/a
I can mention 1 task in particular that can be performed much more quickly
in VB.Net: Typing code. Since you don't have to worry about case, you (at
least I) can type your code a heck of a lot faster.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
http://www.takempis.com
Complex things are made up of
lots of simple things.

"John Sparrow" <js******@ecclescollege.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:13**************************@posting.google.c om...
"Steve C. Orr, MCSD" <St***@Orr.net> wrote in message news:<e5**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl>...
I'd be genuinely interested to see some examples of tasks that can be
performed more quickly in VB.

Thanks,

John

PS. Although, of course, it does save you all that time declaring your
variables.... (wry grin)
With VB.NET you can develop web applications faster than you can with C#. Now that's efficiency.

--
I hope this helps,
Steve C. Orr, MCSD
http://Steve.Orr.net
"Mark Heimonen" <ma***@adiaim.com> wrote in message
news:eD**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
Our company has developed mostly in VB.NET, but our latest projects are being written in C#. We have projects that are half VB/half C#.
Personally, I'm starting to use C# whenever I can. It just seems more
efficient to me.

There's a new roadmap available:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/pr...o/roadmap.aspx

It seems like C# is becoming a more "Advanced" language, while vb.net is being targetted towards non-coders. True, the capabilities of both
languages are very similar, but I would recommend making the switch if it
is
at all possible.

-Mark
"Steve C. Orr, MCSD" <St***@Orr.net> wrote in message
news:ub**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> If you're on the job hunt, you'll increase your chances of landing a
job by
> being able to say that you know both languages instead of just one.
> Then again there's something to be said for being a specialist.
There is > only so much time to learn. You may not want to become a jack of all trades
> but master of none.
>
> --
> I hope this helps,
> Steve C. Orr, MCSD
> http://Steve.Orr.net
>
>
> "Eric Wise" <NO*****@pica.army.milSPAM> wrote in message
> news:ex**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> > Does anyone work for companies that actually implement both VB and
C#? I
> > know that you can do this in theory, I just find it hard to
imagine that
a
> > company would split its programming technologies like that.
> >
> > Of course now with the CLR there doesn't seem to be any
performance benefit
> > to using C# over VB, and VB I think is an "easier" language to
pick up.
I
> > actually wonder if the salaries between vb.net and c# will balance
out a
> > little now since the language doesn't mean as much anymore.
> >
> > I personally am a VB developer moved into asp .net / vb .net.
I've been
> > considering going ahead and learning C# as well. I have only
academic > > experience with C++, but it is enough that I can read c# examples and > > convert them to vb so I don't think this is a big deal for me to

pick up

the
> > new language. Just more wondering if I should even bother.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

Nov 17 '05 #7

P: n/a
There are so many things that are easier and quicker to do in VB.NET

Here's one: Debugging.
The VS.NET designer catches most VB.NET syntax errors as I'm typing them,
where as you have to wait until compile time and then get them all thrown at
you at once. Then you have to retrace your steps and go back to fix them
all, which could have a domino effect and require you to go back and change
other related things too. What a waste of time!

--
I hope this helps,
Steve C. Orr, MCSD
http://Steve.Orr.net

"John Sparrow" <js******@ecclescollege.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:13**************************@posting.google.c om...
"Steve C. Orr, MCSD" <St***@Orr.net> wrote in message news:<e5**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl>...
I'd be genuinely interested to see some examples of tasks that can be
performed more quickly in VB.

Thanks,

John

PS. Although, of course, it does save you all that time declaring your
variables.... (wry grin)
With VB.NET you can develop web applications faster than you can with C#. Now that's efficiency.

--
I hope this helps,
Steve C. Orr, MCSD
http://Steve.Orr.net
"Mark Heimonen" <ma***@adiaim.com> wrote in message
news:eD**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
Our company has developed mostly in VB.NET, but our latest projects are being written in C#. We have projects that are half VB/half C#.
Personally, I'm starting to use C# whenever I can. It just seems more
efficient to me.

There's a new roadmap available:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/pr...o/roadmap.aspx

It seems like C# is becoming a more "Advanced" language, while vb.net is being targetted towards non-coders. True, the capabilities of both
languages are very similar, but I would recommend making the switch if it
is
at all possible.

-Mark
"Steve C. Orr, MCSD" <St***@Orr.net> wrote in message
news:ub**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> If you're on the job hunt, you'll increase your chances of landing a
job by
> being able to say that you know both languages instead of just one.
> Then again there's something to be said for being a specialist.
There is > only so much time to learn. You may not want to become a jack of all trades
> but master of none.
>
> --
> I hope this helps,
> Steve C. Orr, MCSD
> http://Steve.Orr.net
>
>
> "Eric Wise" <NO*****@pica.army.milSPAM> wrote in message
> news:ex**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> > Does anyone work for companies that actually implement both VB and
C#? I
> > know that you can do this in theory, I just find it hard to
imagine that
a
> > company would split its programming technologies like that.
> >
> > Of course now with the CLR there doesn't seem to be any
performance benefit
> > to using C# over VB, and VB I think is an "easier" language to
pick up.
I
> > actually wonder if the salaries between vb.net and c# will balance
out a
> > little now since the language doesn't mean as much anymore.
> >
> > I personally am a VB developer moved into asp .net / vb .net.
I've been
> > considering going ahead and learning C# as well. I have only
academic > > experience with C++, but it is enough that I can read c# examples and > > convert them to vb so I don't think this is a big deal for me to

pick up

the
> > new language. Just more wondering if I should even bother.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

Nov 17 '05 #8

P: n/a
Steve, have you actually opened up a C# project in VS and tried it??
It's got the same Intellisence features VB has!!

Yes, C# is case sensitive, but again that is all sorted by
intellisence. When you need to type
"LoadPageStateFromPersistenceMedium" just type "lo" (lower case) and
pick it from the list. Sorted.

I even opened up a VB project to see if there was something amazing I
was missing out on. The behaviour is identical!!

John

"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@takempis.com> wrote in message news:<uR**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl>...
I can mention 1 task in particular that can be performed much more quickly
in VB.Net: Typing code. Since you don't have to worry about case, you (at
least I) can type your code a heck of a lot faster.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
http://www.takempis.com
Complex things are made up of
lots of simple things.

"John Sparrow" <js******@ecclescollege.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:13**************************@posting.google.c om...
"Steve C. Orr, MCSD" <St***@Orr.net> wrote in message

news:<e5**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl>...

I'd be genuinely interested to see some examples of tasks that can be
performed more quickly in VB.

Thanks,

John

PS. Although, of course, it does save you all that time declaring your
variables.... (wry grin)
With VB.NET you can develop web applications faster than you can with C#. Now that's efficiency.

--
I hope this helps,
Steve C. Orr, MCSD
http://Steve.Orr.net
"Mark Heimonen" <ma***@adiaim.com> wrote in message
news:eD**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> Our company has developed mostly in VB.NET, but our latest projects are > being written in C#. We have projects that are half VB/half C#.
> Personally, I'm starting to use C# whenever I can. It just seems more
> efficient to me.
>
> There's a new roadmap available:
>
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/pr...o/roadmap.aspx
>
> It seems like C# is becoming a more "Advanced" language, while vb.net is > being targetted towards non-coders. True, the capabilities of both
> languages are very similar, but I would recommend making the switch if it
is > at all possible.
>
> -Mark
>
>
> "Steve C. Orr, MCSD" <St***@Orr.net> wrote in message
> news:ub**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> > If you're on the job hunt, you'll increase your chances of landing a job
by > > being able to say that you know both languages instead of just one.
> > Then again there's something to be said for being a specialist. There is > > only so much time to learn. You may not want to become a jack of all
trades > > but master of none.
> >
> > --
> > I hope this helps,
> > Steve C. Orr, MCSD
> > http://Steve.Orr.net
> >
> >
> > "Eric Wise" <NO*****@pica.army.milSPAM> wrote in message
> > news:ex**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> > > Does anyone work for companies that actually implement both VB and C#?
I > > > know that you can do this in theory, I just find it hard to imagine that
a
> > > company would split its programming technologies like that.
> > >
> > > Of course now with the CLR there doesn't seem to be any performance
benefit > > > to using C# over VB, and VB I think is an "easier" language to pick up.
I
> > > actually wonder if the salaries between vb.net and c# will balance out
a > > > little now since the language doesn't mean as much anymore.
> > >
> > > I personally am a VB developer moved into asp .net / vb .net. I've
been > > > considering going ahead and learning C# as well. I have only academic > > > experience with C++, but it is enough that I can read c# examples and > > > convert them to vb so I don't think this is a big deal for me to pick up

the
> > > new language. Just more wondering if I should even bother.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Nov 17 '05 #9

P: n/a
Ahh, but there is one of the great things about C-based languages... case-
sensitivity allows for mixed case variables... _someVariable and
_SomeVariable are two distinct entities.

As for VB/Boolean/Intellisense... C'mon.. have we gotten so bad that we can
not type 4 or 5 characters? ;) (had to lighten this up...)
Bill P.

On Mon, 4 Aug 2003 08:41:13 -0400, msnews.microsoft.com
<cd*******@hotmail.com> wrote:
Actually, C#'s intellisense, in my experience, is not quite as good as
VB's.
Three examples come to mind:

1) In VB, if I define a boolean variable and later in the prcoedure go to
assign a value to it, VB gives me a list of True or False after I type
the
assignment operator - C# doesn't do this.

2) If I define an Enum type and declare a variable of that type, when I
go
to assign a value to that variable in VB, I get a dropdown list of valid
values for that type. I don't get this in C#.

3) And then there's the case-seinsitivity thing. In VB, I can declare a
variable, say _someVariable, and later on I can just type the whole thing
in
lower case and VB knows what variable I mean and it will automatically
correct the case to match the way I declared it and provide any
applicable
intellisense. In C#, if I don't type it the same way it was declared, I
don't get any intellisense dropdown because C# considers it a different
variable.

Chris G.

"John Sparrow" <js******@ecclescollege.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:13**************************@posting.google.c om...
Steve, have you actually opened up a C# project in VS and tried it??
It's got the same Intellisence features VB has!!

Yes, C# is case sensitive, but again that is all sorted by
intellisence. When you need to type
"LoadPageStateFromPersistenceMedium" just type "lo" (lower case) and
pick it from the list. Sorted.

I even opened up a VB project to see if there was something amazing I
was missing out on. The behaviour is identical!!

John

"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@takempis.com> wrote in message

news:<uR**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl>...
> I can mention 1 task in particular that can be performed much more quickly > in VB.Net: Typing code. Since you don't have to worry about case, you (at > least I) can type your code a heck of a lot faster.
>
> -- > HTH,
>
> Kevin Spencer
> Microsoft MVP
> .Net Developer
> http://www.takempis.com
> Complex things are made up of
> lots of simple things.
>
> "John Sparrow" <js******@ecclescollege.ac.uk> wrote in message
> news:13**************************@posting.google.c om...
> > "Steve C. Orr, MCSD" <St***@Orr.net> wrote in message
> news:<e5**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl>...
> >
> > I'd be genuinely interested to see some examples of tasks that can

be
> > performed more quickly in VB.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > John
> >
> > PS. Although, of course, it does save you all that time declaring

your
> > variables.... (wry grin)
> >
> > > With VB.NET you can develop web applications faster than you can with > C#.
> > > Now that's efficiency.
> > >
> > > -- > > > I hope this helps,
> > > Steve C. Orr, MCSD
> > > http://Steve.Orr.net
> > >
> > >
> > > "Mark Heimonen" <ma***@adiaim.com> wrote in message
> > > news:eD**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> > > > Our company has developed mostly in VB.NET, but our latest projects > are
> > > > being written in C#. We have projects that are half VB/half C#.
> > > > Personally, I'm starting to use C# whenever I can. It just

seems

more
> > > > efficient to me.
> > > >
> > > > There's a new roadmap available:
> > > >
> > > > http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/pr...o/roadmap.aspx
> > > >
> > > > It seems like C# is becoming a more "Advanced" language, while vb.net > is
> > > > being targetted towards non-coders. True, the capabilities of both > > > > languages are very similar, but I would recommend making the switch if > it
> is
> > > > at all possible.
> > > >
> > > > -Mark
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Steve C. Orr, MCSD" <St***@Orr.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:ub**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> > > > > If you're on the job hunt, you'll increase your chances of landing a > job
> by
> > > > > being able to say that you know both languages instead of just one. > > > > > Then again there's something to be said for being a

specialist.
> There is
> > > > > only so much time to learn. You may not want to become a jack of > all
> trades
> > > > > but master of none.
> > > > >
> > > > > -- > > > > > I hope this helps,
> > > > > Steve C. Orr, MCSD
> > > > > http://Steve.Orr.net
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Eric Wise" <NO*****@pica.army.milSPAM> wrote in message
> > > > > news:ex**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> > > > > > Does anyone work for companies that actually implement both

VB

and
> C#?
> I
> > > > > > know that you can do this in theory, I just find it hard to
> imagine
> > > that
> > > a
> > > > > > company would split its programming technologies like that.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Of course now with the CLR there doesn't seem to be any
> performance
> benefit
> > > > > > to using C# over VB, and VB I think is an "easier" language

to
> pick
> > > up.
> > > I
> > > > > > actually wonder if the salaries between vb.net and c# will balance > out
> a
> > > > > > little now since the language doesn't mean as much anymore.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I personally am a VB developer moved into asp .net / vb

.net.
> I've
> been
> > > > > > considering going ahead and learning C# as well. I have

only
> academic
> > > > > > experience with C++, but it is enough that I can read c# examples > and
> > > > > > convert them to vb so I don't think this is a big deal for

me

to
> pick
> > > up
> > >
> > > the
> > > > > > new language. Just more wondering if I should even bother.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >



--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
Nov 17 '05 #10

P: n/a
So you consider it to be a good thing that _someVariable and _SomeVariable
are two different variables? To me it sounds like a great way to introduce
bugs and typos. It's hard enough to remember the exact names of all the
variables in a large, complex app, but having to remember the case of every
letter in every variable is a bit more than I'd care to deal with. Instead
I'd like to spend my time and energy programming the logic of my
application.

The VB/Boolean/Intellisense thing he mentioned is just one of many such
examples. Multiply that by the number of times you'll run across stuff like
this during the development of a large, complex app and it turns into
something quite significant.

Perhaps your employer has so much money to spare that they don't mind paying
you to chase down issues like these all day long.
;)

--
I hope this helps,
Steve C. Orr, MCSD
http://Steve.Orr.net
"Bill Priess" <no*****@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:oprteja1ujcimqky@localhost...
Ahh, but there is one of the great things about C-based languages... case-
sensitivity allows for mixed case variables... _someVariable and
_SomeVariable are two distinct entities.

As for VB/Boolean/Intellisense... C'mon.. have we gotten so bad that we can not type 4 or 5 characters? ;) (had to lighten this up...)
Bill P.

On Mon, 4 Aug 2003 08:41:13 -0400, msnews.microsoft.com
<cd*******@hotmail.com> wrote:
Actually, C#'s intellisense, in my experience, is not quite as good as
VB's.
Three examples come to mind:

1) In VB, if I define a boolean variable and later in the prcoedure go to assign a value to it, VB gives me a list of True or False after I type
the
assignment operator - C# doesn't do this.

2) If I define an Enum type and declare a variable of that type, when I
go
to assign a value to that variable in VB, I get a dropdown list of valid
values for that type. I don't get this in C#.

3) And then there's the case-seinsitivity thing. In VB, I can declare a
variable, say _someVariable, and later on I can just type the whole thing in
lower case and VB knows what variable I mean and it will automatically
correct the case to match the way I declared it and provide any
applicable
intellisense. In C#, if I don't type it the same way it was declared, I
don't get any intellisense dropdown because C# considers it a different
variable.

Chris G.

"John Sparrow" <js******@ecclescollege.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:13**************************@posting.google.c om...
Steve, have you actually opened up a C# project in VS and tried it??
It's got the same Intellisence features VB has!!

Yes, C# is case sensitive, but again that is all sorted by
intellisence. When you need to type
"LoadPageStateFromPersistenceMedium" just type "lo" (lower case) and
pick it from the list. Sorted.

I even opened up a VB project to see if there was something amazing I
was missing out on. The behaviour is identical!!

John

"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@takempis.com> wrote in message

news:<uR**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl>...
> I can mention 1 task in particular that can be performed much more

quickly
> in VB.Net: Typing code. Since you don't have to worry about case, you

(at
> least I) can type your code a heck of a lot faster.
>
> -- > HTH,
>
> Kevin Spencer
> Microsoft MVP
> .Net Developer
> http://www.takempis.com
> Complex things are made up of
> lots of simple things.
>
> "John Sparrow" <js******@ecclescollege.ac.uk> wrote in message
> news:13**************************@posting.google.c om...
> > "Steve C. Orr, MCSD" <St***@Orr.net> wrote in message
> news:<e5**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl>...
> >
> > I'd be genuinely interested to see some examples of tasks that can
be
> > performed more quickly in VB.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > John
> >
> > PS. Although, of course, it does save you all that time declaring
your
> > variables.... (wry grin)
> >
> > > With VB.NET you can develop web applications faster than you can

with
> C#.
> > > Now that's efficiency.
> > >
> > > -- > > > I hope this helps,
> > > Steve C. Orr, MCSD
> > > http://Steve.Orr.net
> > >
> > >
> > > "Mark Heimonen" <ma***@adiaim.com> wrote in message
> > > news:eD**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> > > > Our company has developed mostly in VB.NET, but our latest

projects
> are
> > > > being written in C#. We have projects that are half VB/half C#. > > > > Personally, I'm starting to use C# whenever I can. It just
seems

more
> > > > efficient to me.
> > > >
> > > > There's a new roadmap available:
> > > >
> > > > http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/pr...o/roadmap.aspx
> > > >
> > > > It seems like C# is becoming a more "Advanced" language, while

vb.net
> is
> > > > being targetted towards non-coders. True, the capabilities of

both
> > > > languages are very similar, but I would recommend making the

switch if
> it
> is
> > > > at all possible.
> > > >
> > > > -Mark
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Steve C. Orr, MCSD" <St***@Orr.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:ub**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> > > > > If you're on the job hunt, you'll increase your chances of

landing a
> job
> by
> > > > > being able to say that you know both languages instead of
just one.
> > > > > Then again there's something to be said for being a
specialist.
> There is
> > > > > only so much time to learn. You may not want to become a
jack of
> all
> trades
> > > > > but master of none.
> > > > >
> > > > > -- > > > > > I hope this helps,
> > > > > Steve C. Orr, MCSD
> > > > > http://Steve.Orr.net
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Eric Wise" <NO*****@pica.army.milSPAM> wrote in message
> > > > > news:ex**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> > > > > > Does anyone work for companies that actually implement both
VB

and
> C#?
> I
> > > > > > know that you can do this in theory, I just find it hard to
> imagine
> > > that
> > > a
> > > > > > company would split its programming technologies like that.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Of course now with the CLR there doesn't seem to be any
> performance
> benefit
> > > > > > to using C# over VB, and VB I think is an "easier" language
to
> pick
> > > up.
> > > I
> > > > > > actually wonder if the salaries between vb.net and c# will

balance
> out
> a
> > > > > > little now since the language doesn't mean as much anymore.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I personally am a VB developer moved into asp .net / vb
.net.
> I've
> been
> > > > > > considering going ahead and learning C# as well. I have
only
> academic
> > > > > > experience with C++, but it is enough that I can read c#

examples
> and
> > > > > > convert them to vb so I don't think this is a big deal for
me

to
> pick
> > > up
> > >
> > > the
> > > > > > new language. Just more wondering if I should even bother.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >



--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

Nov 17 '05 #11

P: n/a
Actually allowing the programmer to use different casing for the same
variable intriduces bugs. If you mistype your variables in C# (or C/C++ for
that matter) your code will not compile. You have to use exactly the same
name all over your code, not like in VB where you can have four different
casings pointing to the same variable. C just requires more discipline.

Jerry

"Steve C. Orr, MCSD" <St***@Orr.net> wrote in message
news:eU*************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
So you consider it to be a good thing that _someVariable and _SomeVariable are two different variables? To me it sounds like a great way to introduce bugs and typos. It's hard enough to remember the exact names of all the
variables in a large, complex app, but having to remember the case of every letter in every variable is a bit more than I'd care to deal with. Instead I'd like to spend my time and energy programming the logic of my
application.

The VB/Boolean/Intellisense thing he mentioned is just one of many such
examples. Multiply that by the number of times you'll run across stuff like this during the development of a large, complex app and it turns into
something quite significant.

Perhaps your employer has so much money to spare that they don't mind paying you to chase down issues like these all day long.
;)

--
I hope this helps,
Steve C. Orr, MCSD
http://Steve.Orr.net
"Bill Priess" <no*****@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:oprteja1ujcimqky@localhost...
Ahh, but there is one of the great things about C-based languages... case-
sensitivity allows for mixed case variables... _someVariable and
_SomeVariable are two distinct entities.

As for VB/Boolean/Intellisense... C'mon.. have we gotten so bad that we

can
not type 4 or 5 characters? ;) (had to lighten this up...)
Bill P.

On Mon, 4 Aug 2003 08:41:13 -0400, msnews.microsoft.com
<cd*******@hotmail.com> wrote:
Actually, C#'s intellisense, in my experience, is not quite as good as
VB's.
Three examples come to mind:

1) In VB, if I define a boolean variable and later in the prcoedure go

to assign a value to it, VB gives me a list of True or False after I type
the
assignment operator - C# doesn't do this.

2) If I define an Enum type and declare a variable of that type, when I go
to assign a value to that variable in VB, I get a dropdown list of valid values for that type. I don't get this in C#.

3) And then there's the case-seinsitivity thing. In VB, I can declare a variable, say _someVariable, and later on I can just type the whole thing in
lower case and VB knows what variable I mean and it will automatically
correct the case to match the way I declared it and provide any
applicable
intellisense. In C#, if I don't type it the same way it was declared, I don't get any intellisense dropdown because C# considers it a different variable.

Chris G.

"John Sparrow" <js******@ecclescollege.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:13**************************@posting.google.c om...
> Steve, have you actually opened up a C# project in VS and tried it??
> It's got the same Intellisence features VB has!!
>
> Yes, C# is case sensitive, but again that is all sorted by
> intellisence. When you need to type
> "LoadPageStateFromPersistenceMedium" just type "lo" (lower case) and
> pick it from the list. Sorted.
>
> I even opened up a VB project to see if there was something amazing I
> was missing out on. The behaviour is identical!!
>
> John
>
> "Kevin Spencer" <ke***@takempis.com> wrote in message
news:<uR**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl>...
> > I can mention 1 task in particular that can be performed much more
quickly
> > in VB.Net: Typing code. Since you don't have to worry about case, you (at
> > least I) can type your code a heck of a lot faster.
> >
> > -- > HTH,
> >
> > Kevin Spencer
> > Microsoft MVP
> > .Net Developer
> > http://www.takempis.com
> > Complex things are made up of
> > lots of simple things.
> >
> > "John Sparrow" <js******@ecclescollege.ac.uk> wrote in message
> > news:13**************************@posting.google.c om...
> > > "Steve C. Orr, MCSD" <St***@Orr.net> wrote in message
> > news:<e5**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl>...
> > >
> > > I'd be genuinely interested to see some examples of tasks that can> be
> > > performed more quickly in VB.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > PS. Although, of course, it does save you all that time declaring
> your
> > > variables.... (wry grin)
> > >
> > > > With VB.NET you can develop web applications faster than you can with
> > C#.
> > > > Now that's efficiency.
> > > >
> > > > -- > > > I hope this helps,
> > > > Steve C. Orr, MCSD
> > > > http://Steve.Orr.net
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Mark Heimonen" <ma***@adiaim.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:eD**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> > > > > Our company has developed mostly in VB.NET, but our latest
projects
> > are
> > > > > being written in C#. We have projects that are half VB/half C#.> > > > > Personally, I'm starting to use C# whenever I can. It just
> seems
more
> > > > > efficient to me.
> > > > >
> > > > > There's a new roadmap available:
> > > > >
> > > > > http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/pr...o/roadmap.aspx
> > > > >
> > > > > It seems like C# is becoming a more "Advanced" language, while vb.net
> > is
> > > > > being targetted towards non-coders. True, the capabilities of both
> > > > > languages are very similar, but I would recommend making the
switch if
> > it
> > is
> > > > > at all possible.
> > > > >
> > > > > -Mark
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Steve C. Orr, MCSD" <St***@Orr.net> wrote in message
> > > > > news:ub**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> > > > > > If you're on the job hunt, you'll increase your chances of
landing a
> > job
> > by
> > > > > > being able to say that you know both languages instead of just one.
> > > > > > Then again there's something to be said for being a
> specialist.
> > There is
> > > > > > only so much time to learn. You may not want to become a jack of
> > all
> > trades
> > > > > > but master of none.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -- > > > > > I hope this helps,
> > > > > > Steve C. Orr, MCSD
> > > > > > http://Steve.Orr.net
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Eric Wise" <NO*****@pica.army.milSPAM> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:ex**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> > > > > > > Does anyone work for companies that actually implement both> VB
and
> > C#?
> > I
> > > > > > > know that you can do this in theory, I just find it hard to> > imagine
> > > > that
> > > > a
> > > > > > > company would split its programming technologies like that.> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Of course now with the CLR there doesn't seem to be any
> > performance
> > benefit
> > > > > > > to using C# over VB, and VB I think is an "easier" language> to
> > pick
> > > > up.
> > > > I
> > > > > > > actually wonder if the salaries between vb.net and c# will balance
> > out
> > a
> > > > > > > little now since the language doesn't mean as much anymore.> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I personally am a VB developer moved into asp .net / vb
> .net.
> > I've
> > been
> > > > > > > considering going ahead and learning C# as well. I have
> only
> > academic
> > > > > > > experience with C++, but it is enough that I can read c#
examples
> > and
> > > > > > > convert them to vb so I don't think this is a big deal for> me
to
> > pick
> > > > up
> > > >
> > > > the
> > > > > > > new language. Just more wondering if I should even bother.> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >


--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/


Nov 17 '05 #12

P: n/a
"Steve C. Orr, MCSD" <St***@Orr.net> wrote in message news:<eU*************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl>...
So you consider it to be a good thing that _someVariable and _SomeVariable
are two different variables? To me it sounds like a great way to introduce
bugs and typos. It's hard enough to remember the exact names of all the
It's common practice in some environments to use all-lower-case for
fields, and capitalisation for Properties. A clear distinction I've
never had any problems with (ie 'color' is the field and 'Color' is
the property).

And all sorted by intellisense too.
The VB/Boolean/Intellisense thing he mentioned is just one of many such
examples. Multiply that by the number of times you'll run across stuff like
this during the development of a large, complex app and it turns into
something quite significant.


And the many other examples? like the debugging example - where VB
proved less effective at detecting type incompatibility? (see my
previous post)

I want to stress here once again that I'm not rubbishing VB - rather I
am defending C# against ill informed critisism - specifically of
offering lower productivity.

It can't be sunstantiated - and if necessary I'll do a keystroke
analysis of two identically functioning programs (VB v C#) to prove
it!

I'd be prepared to bet the C# version involved less typing, as well
(of course)as offering improved compile time type checking.

John
Nov 17 '05 #13

P: n/a
Jerry III wrote:
Actually allowing the programmer to use different casing for the same
variable intriduces bugs. If you mistype your variables in C# (or C/C++ for
that matter) your code will not compile. You have to use exactly the same
name all over your code, not like in VB where you can have four different
casings pointing to the same variable. C just requires more discipline.


Perfect example of what's wrong with the world today. Let's not have
the discipline to do things correctly... lets just do whatever we feel
like and expect someone else will come along and clean it up for us.

John

Nov 17 '05 #14

P: n/a
It's not "incorrect" to mix case in VB.NET so your point is moot.
Furthermore, we're not expecting "somebody else" to clean up after us.
We're expecting the computer (VS.NET specifically) to assist us with minor
details that are unimportant to the logic of the program. Computers exist
to do things for us. If you don't like that then I don't see why you use
computers at all. All day long I write programs that do things for other
people. Microsoft programmers put a lot of effort into creating VS.NET so
it would do things like this for us and make our jobs easier. Are you
suggesting we throw away their efforts and do things manually? That seems
like a waste of time and money.

--
I hope this helps,
Steve C. Orr, MCSD
http://Steve.Orr.net

"John Kraft" <jh*****@ilstu.edu> wrote in message
news:bg**********@malachite.ilstu.edu...
Jerry III wrote:
Actually allowing the programmer to use different casing for the same
variable intriduces bugs. If you mistype your variables in C# (or C/C++ for that matter) your code will not compile. You have to use exactly the same name all over your code, not like in VB where you can have four different casings pointing to the same variable. C just requires more discipline.


Perfect example of what's wrong with the world today. Let's not have
the discipline to do things correctly... lets just do whatever we feel
like and expect someone else will come along and clean it up for us.

John

Nov 17 '05 #15

P: n/a
All I'm saying is that if you don't work completely alone you need to write
readable code. And using different capitalization for the same variable
really lowers the ability of somebody else than you to read and understand
the code. MaxIndex and MAXINDEX might be the same from the VB compiler point
of view but it's fairly difficult to get that for a human. If you think it's
not important for your code to be easy to understand - fine (if it was
difficult to write it should be difficult to read), but most of us work with
others and can't afford to waste time trying to match different identifiers
together. And it gets even worse with non-english languages (Java for
example allows for localized variable names, I'm not sure about VB). There's
a reason why vast majority of programming languages (and computer
technologies in general) do distinguish between different casings...

Jerry

"Steve C. Orr, MCSD" <St***@Orr.net> wrote in message
news:Ot*************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
It's not "incorrect" to mix case in VB.NET so your point is moot.
Furthermore, we're not expecting "somebody else" to clean up after us.
We're expecting the computer (VS.NET specifically) to assist us with minor
details that are unimportant to the logic of the program. Computers exist
to do things for us. If you don't like that then I don't see why you use
computers at all. All day long I write programs that do things for other
people. Microsoft programmers put a lot of effort into creating VS.NET so
it would do things like this for us and make our jobs easier. Are you
suggesting we throw away their efforts and do things manually? That seems
like a waste of time and money.

--
I hope this helps,
Steve C. Orr, MCSD
http://Steve.Orr.net

Nov 17 '05 #16

P: n/a
This may be true to *you* as a VB programmer, but programmers familiar
with C# find the code easy to read.

In the same way, I find reading VB similar to wading through treacle.
But I'm sure it makes perfect sense to you.

The agument that "I can't read C#, therefore C# is difficult to read."
is like saying "I can't speak French, therefore French is difficult to
speak."

Subjectively true, objectively facile.

Still waiting to here about the productivity comparison. Should I do
the keystroke analysis??? grin.

John
"Steve C. Orr, MCSD" <St***@Orr.net> wrote in message news:<uZ**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl>...
As discussed already, VS.NET automatically adjusts the case of your VB.NET
variables so that they all match. Therefore your point is again moot.
Also, because VB.NET uses real words it is far more readable than C#. Even
many C# programmers would likely agree with that. C#'s syntax strength is
it's brevity, not readability.

Nov 17 '05 #17

P: n/a
Steve C. Orr, MCSD wrote:
As discussed already, VS.NET automatically adjusts the case of your VB.NET
variables so that they all match. Therefore your point is again moot.
Also, because VB.NET uses real words it is far more readable than C#. Even
many C# programmers would likely agree with that. C#'s syntax strength is
it's brevity, not readability.

That's like saying that Spanish is more readable than Japanese. To
whom? I think a Japanese/Chinese person would disagree with you. That
is all a matter of perspective.

My first language I ever learned was C. Therefore, to me, C derived
languages are much easier to read. VB is easier to read for people who
are not programmers or who have only programmed in VB like languages.
Once again, we should base our comparison of the languages on the
languages themselves. After all, a language is nothing more than a
collection of symbol and a syntax to put those symbols together to
communicate something.

Additionally, "better" is a suggestive term. Maybe the discussion
should focus on which is "more powerful", "easier to learn", etc. I
personally tend to judge a language mostly on what a language can do,
with only a little bit given to ease of use. This is why I think C++ is
the best language ever made. But, that's a personal preference.

I personally prefer the c# language because I am more familier with the
syntax and there are, according to books I've read, some things you can
do in c# that cannot be done in VB. I am however forced to use VB in my
occupational position and have learned the syntax well enough that I am
mostly comfortable with it, even if I don't like it.

John

Nov 17 '05 #18

P: n/a
No, I'm saying that I can read the english language, therefore VB.NET is
easy to read.
VB.NET uses real words, that makes it READABLE.
Of course anyone can read C# with enough training, but it takes a good deal
more training because it has much less in common with the english language
which most of us already know to begin with.

--
I hope this helps,
Steve C. Orr, MCSD
http://Steve.Orr.net
"John Sparrow" <js******@ecclescollege.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:13**************************@posting.google.c om...
This may be true to *you* as a VB programmer, but programmers familiar
with C# find the code easy to read.

In the same way, I find reading VB similar to wading through treacle.
But I'm sure it makes perfect sense to you.

The agument that "I can't read C#, therefore C# is difficult to read."
is like saying "I can't speak French, therefore French is difficult to
speak."

Subjectively true, objectively facile.

Still waiting to here about the productivity comparison. Should I do
the keystroke analysis??? grin.

John
"Steve C. Orr, MCSD" <St***@Orr.net> wrote in message

news:<uZ**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl>...
As discussed already, VS.NET automatically adjusts the case of your VB.NET variables so that they all match. Therefore your point is again moot.
Also, because VB.NET uses real words it is far more readable than C#. Even many C# programmers would likely agree with that. C#'s syntax strength is it's brevity, not readability.

Nov 17 '05 #19

P: n/a
I suppose if you assume we're all using notepad then your argument holds
water.
But I'm a real programmer that uses real programming tools because that's
what makes sense.
That doesn't make me lazy, it makes me efficient.

--
I hope this helps,
Steve C. Orr, MCSD
http://Steve.Orr.net

"John Kraft" <jh*****@ilstu.edu> wrote in message
news:bg**********@malachite.ilstu.edu...
Steve C. Orr, MCSD wrote:
It's not "incorrect" to mix case in VB.NET so your point is moot.
Furthermore, we're not expecting "somebody else" to clean up after us.


Actually you are. You are expecting the environment to clean up after
you.

I don't think that having the environment do things for you is a bad
thing. If it helps you to write code more quickly, I think that is a
good thing.

Complaining that C derived languages are bad, or worse than VB, because
the environment will not do things for you is simply laziness. Those
people using the excuse that the environment won't do things for them as
an excuse to criticize the language are only lying to themselves.
We're expecting the computer (VS.NET specifically) to assist us with minor details that are unimportant to the logic of the program. Computers exist to do things for us. If you don't like that then I don't see why you use computers at all. All day long I write programs that do things for other people. Microsoft programmers put a lot of effort into creating VS.NET so it would do things like this for us and make our jobs easier. Are you
suggesting we throw away their efforts and do things manually? That seems like a waste of time and money.

Definately not. I happen to love VS... for the most part. But writing
code in VB.NET has definately made me become a lazier programmer.

I think if you want to compare languages, you shoud compare them on the
languages themselves... not the environment.

John

Nov 17 '05 #20

P: n/a
I suppose if you assume we're all using notepad then your argument holds
water.
But I'm a real programmer that uses real programming tools because that's
what makes sense.
That doesn't make me lazy, it makes me efficient.

--
I hope this helps,
Steve C. Orr, MCSD
http://Steve.Orr.net
"John Kraft" <jh*****@ilstu.edu> wrote in message
news:bg**********@malachite.ilstu.edu...
Steve C. Orr, MCSD wrote:
As discussed already, VS.NET automatically adjusts the case of your VB.NET variables so that they all match. Therefore your point is again moot.
Also, because VB.NET uses real words it is far more readable than C#. Even many C# programmers would likely agree with that. C#'s syntax strength is it's brevity, not readability.

That's like saying that Spanish is more readable than Japanese. To
whom? I think a Japanese/Chinese person would disagree with you. That
is all a matter of perspective.

My first language I ever learned was C. Therefore, to me, C derived
languages are much easier to read. VB is easier to read for people who
are not programmers or who have only programmed in VB like languages.
Once again, we should base our comparison of the languages on the
languages themselves. After all, a language is nothing more than a
collection of symbol and a syntax to put those symbols together to
communicate something.

Additionally, "better" is a suggestive term. Maybe the discussion
should focus on which is "more powerful", "easier to learn", etc. I
personally tend to judge a language mostly on what a language can do,
with only a little bit given to ease of use. This is why I think C++ is
the best language ever made. But, that's a personal preference.

I personally prefer the c# language because I am more familier with the
syntax and there are, according to books I've read, some things you can
do in c# that cannot be done in VB. I am however forced to use VB in my
occupational position and have learned the syntax well enough that I am
mostly comfortable with it, even if I don't like it.

John

Nov 17 '05 #21

P: n/a
VB does use some English words (a quick scan of the keyword list shows
about 70% are English. Examples of non-English words are 'Ansi',
'Enum', 'CSng' etc).

The C# keyword list (half as long, remember) shows about 85% English
words. The most esoteric are things like 'uint' and, yes you've
guessed it, 'enum'.

I showed some VB source code to my non-programmer collegues. They can
read the English language proficiently, but couldn't understand the
code (not suprisingly). That's because, to understand VB, you need to
know over 150 keywords, the Framework, and principles of technologies
like OO, Event driven programming and structured exception handling.

Just like for C#.

Both languages have a deterministic structure - a particular piece of
code means something concrete. It is unambiguous.

If you're trained to read VB, it makes perfect sense and is clear.

If you're trained to read C#, that also makes perfect sense. The only
difference is, 50% less keywords to learn.

John
"Steve C. Orr, MCSD" <St***@Orr.net> wrote in message news:<OI*************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl>...
No, I'm saying that I can read the english language, therefore VB.NET is
easy to read.
VB.NET uses real words, that makes it READABLE.
Of course anyone can read C# with enough training, but it takes a good deal
more training because it has much less in common with the english language
which most of us already know to begin with.

"John Sparrow" <js******@ecclescollege.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:13**************************@posting.google.c om...
This may be true to *you* as a VB programmer, but programmers familiar
with C# find the code easy to read.

In the same way, I find reading VB similar to wading through treacle.
But I'm sure it makes perfect sense to you.

The agument that "I can't read C#, therefore C# is difficult to read."
is like saying "I can't speak French, therefore French is difficult to
speak."

Nov 17 '05 #22

P: n/a
I believe this debate has long since reached the point of diminishing
returns!

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
http://www.takempis.com
Complex things are made up of
lots of simple things.

"John Sparrow" <js******@ecclescollege.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:13**************************@posting.google.c om...
VB does use some English words (a quick scan of the keyword list shows
about 70% are English. Examples of non-English words are 'Ansi',
'Enum', 'CSng' etc).

The C# keyword list (half as long, remember) shows about 85% English
words. The most esoteric are things like 'uint' and, yes you've
guessed it, 'enum'.

I showed some VB source code to my non-programmer collegues. They can
read the English language proficiently, but couldn't understand the
code (not suprisingly). That's because, to understand VB, you need to
know over 150 keywords, the Framework, and principles of technologies
like OO, Event driven programming and structured exception handling.

Just like for C#.

Both languages have a deterministic structure - a particular piece of
code means something concrete. It is unambiguous.

If you're trained to read VB, it makes perfect sense and is clear.

If you're trained to read C#, that also makes perfect sense. The only
difference is, 50% less keywords to learn.

John
"Steve C. Orr, MCSD" <St***@Orr.net> wrote in message

news:<OI*************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl>...
No, I'm saying that I can read the english language, therefore VB.NET is
easy to read.
VB.NET uses real words, that makes it READABLE.
Of course anyone can read C# with enough training, but it takes a good deal more training because it has much less in common with the english language which most of us already know to begin with.

"John Sparrow" <js******@ecclescollege.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:13**************************@posting.google.c om...
This may be true to *you* as a VB programmer, but programmers familiar
with C# find the code easy to read.

In the same way, I find reading VB similar to wading through treacle.
But I'm sure it makes perfect sense to you.

The agument that "I can't read C#, therefore C# is difficult to read."
is like saying "I can't speak French, therefore French is difficult to
speak."

Nov 17 '05 #23

P: n/a
Will someone PLEASE kill this thread? What a waste of bandwidth.
Nov 17 '05 #24

P: n/a
let's rename this thread ...let's call it the pompous a$$ thread.


"John Kraft" <jh*****@ilstu.edu> wrote in message
news:bh**********@malachite.ilstu.edu...
Steve C. Orr, MCSD wrote:
I suppose if you assume we're all using notepad then your argument holds
water.
But I'm a real programmer that uses real programming tools because that's what makes sense.
That doesn't make me lazy, it makes me efficient.

I certainly was not calling you lazy. I was simply pointing out that
niceties like visual studio, while nice and efficient to use, tend to
breed laziness. Just like a person will spend 20 minutes searching for
the remote control rather than getting up off the couch and changing the
channel manually.

However, since I am not a real programmer, I tend to attempt to force
myself to write code as best I can with as little help from the editor
as possible. I do, however, rely on context sensitive coloring because
I am slightly dislexic and tend to mistype words.

John

Nov 17 '05 #25

P: n/a
There's no reason to be intimidated by all the keywords in VB.NET.
Many of them are leftovers from VB6 and before. They still exist for
backward compatibility & such.
Many of them are now somewhat redundant and unnecessary - but it's nice to
have options.
You can learn those extra keywords if you want, but you don't need to know
most of them to be a good VB programmer.
You're right that C# has less keywords - but many more symbols that you must
memorize, and they can mean different things in different contexts.
Symbols are the main reason "regular folks" don't understand computer code.
The less symbols the better in my opinion. To me it seems lazy to save a
few keystrokes at the expense of readability.
I type very fast as any good coder should, so saving a few keystrokes should
not be as important as self documenting code.
If people could type computer instructions in plain English then anybody
could be a programmer. Of course that day won't be here any time soon but
until then the closest we have come is Visual Basic. Long live VB!

--
I hope this helps,
Steve C. Orr, MCSD
http://Steve.Orr.net
"John Sparrow" <js******@ecclescollege.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:13**************************@posting.google.c om...
VB does use some English words (a quick scan of the keyword list shows
about 70% are English. Examples of non-English words are 'Ansi',
'Enum', 'CSng' etc).

The C# keyword list (half as long, remember) shows about 85% English
words. The most esoteric are things like 'uint' and, yes you've
guessed it, 'enum'.

I showed some VB source code to my non-programmer collegues. They can
read the English language proficiently, but couldn't understand the
code (not suprisingly). That's because, to understand VB, you need to
know over 150 keywords, the Framework, and principles of technologies
like OO, Event driven programming and structured exception handling.

Just like for C#.

Both languages have a deterministic structure - a particular piece of
code means something concrete. It is unambiguous.

If you're trained to read VB, it makes perfect sense and is clear.

If you're trained to read C#, that also makes perfect sense. The only
difference is, 50% less keywords to learn.

John
"Steve C. Orr, MCSD" <St***@Orr.net> wrote in message

news:<OI*************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl>...
No, I'm saying that I can read the english language, therefore VB.NET is
easy to read.
VB.NET uses real words, that makes it READABLE.
Of course anyone can read C# with enough training, but it takes a good deal more training because it has much less in common with the english language which most of us already know to begin with.

"John Sparrow" <js******@ecclescollege.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:13**************************@posting.google.c om...
This may be true to *you* as a VB programmer, but programmers familiar
with C# find the code easy to read.

In the same way, I find reading VB similar to wading through treacle.
But I'm sure it makes perfect sense to you.

The agument that "I can't read C#, therefore C# is difficult to read."
is like saying "I can't speak French, therefore French is difficult to
speak."

Nov 17 '05 #26

P: n/a
Steve C. Orr, MCSD wrote:
Lighten up! There's nothing wrong with a healthy debate. Nobody is forcing
you to read this thread.

No kidding!

And, just for the record, I am not a REAL programmer. I'm a programming
student, specificly a senior in Computer Science, at Illinois State
University, so no offense was taken on my part.

John

Nov 17 '05 #27

P: n/a
Steve C. Orr, MCSD wrote:
There's no reason to be intimidated by all the keywords in VB.NET.
Many of them are leftovers from VB6 and before. They still exist for
backward compatibility & such.
Many of them are now somewhat redundant and unnecessary - but it's nice to
have options.
You can learn those extra keywords if you want, but you don't need to know
most of them to be a good VB programmer.
You're right that C# has less keywords - but many more symbols that you must
memorize, and they can mean different things in different contexts.


Can you give some examples? I think VB is worse at this than C#. One
of the biggest problems I have in VB is determining whether a line of
code is assigning a value or doing a comparison... or more specifically,
how the compiler will treat such code.

I saw a line of code once that said something like:

var1 = (var2 = var3 + var4)

and I was confused for quite some time as to what would happen with the
code.

In C#, the = and == are quite different and a line of code like above
would be far more clear.

John

Nov 17 '05 #28

P: n/a
> you to read this thread
you mean dribble don't you? a forum for pompous a$$es to tell everyone why
they think their way is the only way....what a bunch of pious holier than
though crap.


"Steve C. Orr, MCSD" <St***@Orr.net> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
Lighten up! There's nothing wrong with a healthy debate. Nobody is forcing
..
--
I hope this helps,
Steve C. Orr, MCSD
http://Steve.Orr.net
"Seaside" <ss@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ee****************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
let's rename this thread ...let's call it the pompous a$$ thread.


"John Kraft" <jh*****@ilstu.edu> wrote in message
news:bh**********@malachite.ilstu.edu...
Steve C. Orr, MCSD wrote:
> I suppose if you assume we're all using notepad then your argument holds > water.
> But I'm a real programmer that uses real programming tools because

that's
> what makes sense.
> That doesn't make me lazy, it makes me efficient.
>
I certainly was not calling you lazy. I was simply pointing out that
niceties like visual studio, while nice and efficient to use, tend to
breed laziness. Just like a person will spend 20 minutes searching for the remote control rather than getting up off the couch and changing the channel manually.

However, since I am not a real programmer, I tend to attempt to force
myself to write code as best I can with as little help from the editor
as possible. I do, however, rely on context sensitive coloring because I am slightly dislexic and tend to mistype words.

John



Nov 17 '05 #29

P: n/a
This newsgroup is not for debate! Look at its charter. Take your debate and
cram it you pompous a$$.

"Steve C. Orr, MCSD" <St***@Orr.net> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
Didn't your mother ever tell you what to do if you don't have anything nice to say?
Modern society is based on debate.
What would America be today if there was no Democrats vs. Republicans, or
Science vs. Religion?
I can't quite imagine what that would be like, but it seems quite boring to me.
If you can't handle intelligent debate then perhaps it's because you lack
the necessary prerequisite.
Even if I disagree with some of the posts in this thread, at least I respect the authors for contributing some intelligent thought and discussion, unlike your posts which seem to have no value beyond insulting people.

--
I hope this helps,
Steve C. Orr, MCSD
http://Steve.Orr.net
"Seaside" <ss@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
you to read this thread

you mean dribble don't you? a forum for pompous a$$es to tell everyone why they think their way is the only way....what a bunch of pious holier than though crap.


"Steve C. Orr, MCSD" <St***@Orr.net> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
Lighten up! There's nothing wrong with a healthy debate. Nobody is

forcing
.

--
I hope this helps,
Steve C. Orr, MCSD
http://Steve.Orr.net
"Seaside" <ss@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ee****************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> let's rename this thread ...let's call it the pompous a$$ thread.


Nov 17 '05 #30

P: n/a
That's a good example. In VB you have one symbol to remember, while in C#
you have two.
Normal people know what = means.
Then in C# it's just one more thing you have to learn that's not very
intuitive for most people: the difference between = and ==.
Sure it's not hard to learn, but it's just one more step in having to
geekify yourself. You have to think like a computer, instead of the other
way around.
In VB there is one easily recognizable (=) symbol and you just have to think
about whether you're giving a command to the computer or asking a question
of it. And of course normally you'd have an IF statement in there somewhere
when you're asking a question.

There is plenty of confusing syntax in C#. For instance those darn curly
braces. They are everywhere! The only thing they ever have in common is
opening and closing some kind of block of code. But which kind? If you see
a closing curly brace you've got to scroll back up to where the block
started to find out, which may or may not be easy depending on how long the
block is and how the programmer formatted the text. The only consistently
easy way is if you put a comment after the curly brace that specifies which
block of code is being closed. I see this frequently in C#.
VB is more self documenting. You know what block is closing because it
explicitly says END IF, or NEXT, or LOOP. No comment necessary, and VS.NET
formats it all very nicely and consistently for you in case you do want to
see the beginning of the code block.

And those darn semicolons! What's the point? There's a reason it's named
the "Enter" key!
Of course we're nitpicking now. I'm sure we could go back and forth about
such minor annoyances.

My main point is that you shouldn't have to learn to think like a computer
in order to get them to do useful things for you. One day we won't have to.
You'll simply tell your computer what you want it to do and it will do it.
Computers are getting more and more user friendly and "intelligent" all the
time. Even C# is an example of this trend. VB.NET is simply a better
example of it.

--
I hope this helps,
Steve C. Orr, MCSD
http://Steve.Orr.net

"John Kraft" <jh*****@ilstu.edu> wrote in message
news:bh**********@malachite.ilstu.edu...
Steve C. Orr, MCSD wrote:
There's no reason to be intimidated by all the keywords in VB.NET.
Many of them are leftovers from VB6 and before. They still exist for
backward compatibility & such.
Many of them are now somewhat redundant and unnecessary - but it's nice to have options.
You can learn those extra keywords if you want, but you don't need to know most of them to be a good VB programmer.
You're right that C# has less keywords - but many more symbols that you must memorize, and they can mean different things in different contexts.


Can you give some examples? I think VB is worse at this than C#. One
of the biggest problems I have in VB is determining whether a line of
code is assigning a value or doing a comparison... or more specifically,
how the compiler will treat such code.

I saw a line of code once that said something like:

var1 = (var2 = var3 + var4)

and I was confused for quite some time as to what would happen with the
code.

In C#, the = and == are quite different and a line of code like above
would be far more clear.

John

Nov 17 '05 #31

P: n/a
what a dork. If you want to see how good he really is instead of his mouth.
Go visit that piece of crap website of his. Before you take any of these
pompous a$$es advice always check their work. I'm of cours eusing the word
"work" very liberally here.

How's that for debate ORR you pompous A$$


"Steve C. Orr, MCSD" <St***@Orr.net> wrote in message
news:eN*************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
That's a good example. In VB you have one symbol to remember, while in C#
you have two.
Normal people know what = means.
Then in C# it's just one more thing you have to learn that's not very
intuitive for most people: the difference between = and ==.
Sure it's not hard to learn, but it's just one more step in having to
geekify yourself. You have to think like a computer, instead of the other
way around.
In VB there is one easily recognizable (=) symbol and you just have to think about whether you're giving a command to the computer or asking a question
of it. And of course normally you'd have an IF statement in there somewhere when you're asking a question.

There is plenty of confusing syntax in C#. For instance those darn curly
braces. They are everywhere! The only thing they ever have in common is
opening and closing some kind of block of code. But which kind? If you see a closing curly brace you've got to scroll back up to where the block
started to find out, which may or may not be easy depending on how long the block is and how the programmer formatted the text. The only consistently
easy way is if you put a comment after the curly brace that specifies which block of code is being closed. I see this frequently in C#.
VB is more self documenting. You know what block is closing because it
explicitly says END IF, or NEXT, or LOOP. No comment necessary, and VS.NET formats it all very nicely and consistently for you in case you do want to
see the beginning of the code block.

And those darn semicolons! What's the point? There's a reason it's named
the "Enter" key!
Of course we're nitpicking now. I'm sure we could go back and forth about
such minor annoyances.

My main point is that you shouldn't have to learn to think like a computer
in order to get them to do useful things for you. One day we won't have to. You'll simply tell your computer what you want it to do and it will do it.
Computers are getting more and more user friendly and "intelligent" all the time. Even C# is an example of this trend. VB.NET is simply a better
example of it.

--
I hope this helps,
Steve C. Orr, MCSD
http://Steve.Orr.net

"John Kraft" <jh*****@ilstu.edu> wrote in message
news:bh**********@malachite.ilstu.edu...
Steve C. Orr, MCSD wrote:
There's no reason to be intimidated by all the keywords in VB.NET.
Many of them are leftovers from VB6 and before. They still exist for
backward compatibility & such.
Many of them are now somewhat redundant and unnecessary - but it's
nice
to have options.
You can learn those extra keywords if you want, but you don't need to know most of them to be a good VB programmer.
You're right that C# has less keywords - but many more symbols that
you
must memorize, and they can mean different things in different contexts.


Can you give some examples? I think VB is worse at this than C#. One
of the biggest problems I have in VB is determining whether a line of
code is assigning a value or doing a comparison... or more specifically,
how the compiler will treat such code.

I saw a line of code once that said something like:

var1 = (var2 = var3 + var4)

and I was confused for quite some time as to what would happen with the
code.

In C#, the = and == are quite different and a line of code like above
would be far more clear.

John


Nov 17 '05 #32

P: n/a
Name calling: What an impressive display of your personality and maturity
level.
I'm glad I don't work with you.

Every newsgroup is for discussion/debate! That's why they exist!
There is almost always more than one way to solve a programming problem and
I enjoy reading different people's opinions about which techniques are
superior in different situations. If you don't enjoy that then I don't know
what you're doing in here.

I happen to feel VB.NET is superior for ASP.NET development. That's why I'm
here stating my case in this newsgroup. I'll admit that C# is somewhat
superior for some other kinds of programming, but that's a bit off topic.

I don't read every message in every thread. I tend to read the ones I find
interesting and ignore the ones that I find to be boring or annoying. I
suggest you do the same.

--
I hope this helps,
Steve C. Orr, MCSD
http://Steve.Orr.net

"Seaside" <ss@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:OU**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
This newsgroup is not for debate! Look at its charter. Take your debate and cram it you pompous a$$.

"Steve C. Orr, MCSD" <St***@Orr.net> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
Didn't your mother ever tell you what to do if you don't have anything

nice
to say?
Modern society is based on debate.
What would America be today if there was no Democrats vs. Republicans, or
Science vs. Religion?
I can't quite imagine what that would be like, but it seems quite boring

to
me.
If you can't handle intelligent debate then perhaps it's because you lack the necessary prerequisite.
Even if I disagree with some of the posts in this thread, at least I

respect
the authors for contributing some intelligent thought and discussion,

unlike
your posts which seem to have no value beyond insulting people.

--
I hope this helps,
Steve C. Orr, MCSD
http://Steve.Orr.net
"Seaside" <ss@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> you to read this thread
you mean dribble don't you? a forum for pompous a$$es to tell everyone

why they think their way is the only way....what a bunch of pious holier than though crap.


"Steve C. Orr, MCSD" <St***@Orr.net> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> Lighten up! There's nothing wrong with a healthy debate. Nobody is
forcing
.
>
> --
> I hope this helps,
> Steve C. Orr, MCSD
> http://Steve.Orr.net
>
>
> "Seaside" <ss@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:ee****************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> > let's rename this thread ...let's call it the pompous a$$ thread.



Nov 17 '05 #33

P: n/a
Well I just got a compliment about my web site from several high quality
developers earlier today. And you haven't demonstrated any kind of
knowledge or skill so far, so your opinion doesn't mean much to me in
comparison.

I don't see any address listed for your web site. Is there a reason for
that? Do you even know how to make web sites? Or perhaps you're just too
ashamed to show us. I suppose its much easier to criticize others so I
guess you're just sticking to what you're good at. I can't blame you.

--
Steve C. Orr, MCSD
http://Steve.Orr.net

"Seaside" <ss@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
what a dork. If you want to see how good he really is instead of his mouth. Go visit that piece of crap website of his. Before you take any of these
pompous a$$es advice always check their work. I'm of cours eusing the word
"work" very liberally here.

How's that for debate ORR you pompous A$$


"Steve C. Orr, MCSD" <St***@Orr.net> wrote in message
news:eN*************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
That's a good example. In VB you have one symbol to remember, while in C# you have two.
Normal people know what = means.
Then in C# it's just one more thing you have to learn that's not very
intuitive for most people: the difference between = and ==.
Sure it's not hard to learn, but it's just one more step in having to
geekify yourself. You have to think like a computer, instead of the other way around.
In VB there is one easily recognizable (=) symbol and you just have to

think
about whether you're giving a command to the computer or asking a question of it. And of course normally you'd have an IF statement in there

somewhere
when you're asking a question.

There is plenty of confusing syntax in C#. For instance those darn curly braces. They are everywhere! The only thing they ever have in common is opening and closing some kind of block of code. But which kind? If you

see
a closing curly brace you've got to scroll back up to where the block
started to find out, which may or may not be easy depending on how long

the
block is and how the programmer formatted the text. The only consistently easy way is if you put a comment after the curly brace that specifies

which
block of code is being closed. I see this frequently in C#.
VB is more self documenting. You know what block is closing because it
explicitly says END IF, or NEXT, or LOOP. No comment necessary, and

VS.NET
formats it all very nicely and consistently for you in case you do want to see the beginning of the code block.

And those darn semicolons! What's the point? There's a reason it's named the "Enter" key!
Of course we're nitpicking now. I'm sure we could go back and forth about such minor annoyances.

My main point is that you shouldn't have to learn to think like a computer in order to get them to do useful things for you. One day we won't have

to.
You'll simply tell your computer what you want it to do and it will do it. Computers are getting more and more user friendly and "intelligent" all

the
time. Even C# is an example of this trend. VB.NET is simply a better
example of it.

--
I hope this helps,
Steve C. Orr, MCSD
http://Steve.Orr.net

"John Kraft" <jh*****@ilstu.edu> wrote in message
news:bh**********@malachite.ilstu.edu...
Steve C. Orr, MCSD wrote:

> There's no reason to be intimidated by all the keywords in VB.NET.
> Many of them are leftovers from VB6 and before. They still exist for > backward compatibility & such.
> Many of them are now somewhat redundant and unnecessary - but it's nice
to
> have options.
> You can learn those extra keywords if you want, but you don't need to know
> most of them to be a good VB programmer.
> You're right that C# has less keywords - but many more symbols that

you
must
> memorize, and they can mean different things in different contexts.

Can you give some examples? I think VB is worse at this than C#. One
of the biggest problems I have in VB is determining whether a line of
code is assigning a value or doing a comparison... or more

specifically, how the compiler will treat such code.

I saw a line of code once that said something like:

var1 = (var2 = var3 + var4)

and I was confused for quite some time as to what would happen with the code.

In C#, the = and == are quite different and a line of code like above
would be far more clear.

John



Nov 17 '05 #34

P: n/a
There are no editors available that create "good" code. Tools like
Visual Studio simply help eliminate syntax errors.
What makes a good programmer is one that understands the purpose of
the program they are coding and builds it to the best use of the
machinery and the users. All languages have their pros and cons, but
a good programmer knows how to construct robust programs with whatever
tools they have. Tools that reduce compilation problems allow more
time for the important testing requirements. Forcing yourself to slave
over syntax when it's not necessary isn't very good programming.
There's way more important things to worry about than syntax!

VB or C# - get over it.

Been there, done that!

John Kraft <jh*****@ilstu.edu> wrote in message news:<bh**********@malachite.ilstu.edu>...
Steve C. Orr, MCSD wrote:
I suppose if you assume we're all using notepad then your argument holds
water.
But I'm a real programmer that uses real programming tools because that's
what makes sense.
That doesn't make me lazy, it makes me efficient.

I certainly was not calling you lazy. I was simply pointing out that
niceties like visual studio, while nice and efficient to use, tend to
breed laziness. Just like a person will spend 20 minutes searching for
the remote control rather than getting up off the couch and changing the
channel manually.

However, since I am not a real programmer, I tend to attempt to force
myself to write code as best I can with as little help from the editor
as possible. I do, however, rely on context sensitive coloring because
I am slightly dislexic and tend to mistype words.

John

Nov 17 '05 #35

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