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Disadvantages in Visual Studio 2005 (Web sites)

In the book:
"Working with Microsoft Visual Studio 2005"
Craig Skibo wrote:
"The power of Visual Studio 2005 lies in its ability to empower users to
build, test, and debug powerful applications quickly and easly."

I don't agree on what concernes ASP .NET Web Sites in VS2005.

All what involves Namespaces in Web sites has been disappeared. I know
you can still MANUALLY manage them, but not QUICKLY and EASLY. In a
project I can subdivide the App_Code Folder in subfolders, but if I use
the Powerfull "Class View" Window, I'm not very glad to see an infinity
number of classes, all placed at the root of the project namespace.

Grouping in namespaces is one of the most powerful skills tha .net gave
us, since 1.0 and not only for .Net Windows Projects.

Someone could reply me that the problem is pre-compilation. I know that
now you can choose how to build your Web site, and this is very good.
But the need of defining namespaces and grouping classes is indipendent
from the way I'll decide to deploy the Web Site.

Is this a "by design" issue?. Or it is a bug? In my opinion is a BIG
black hole.

I'm sorry for this lines, but I'm tired to search for workarounds for an
IDE, abive all when a functionality was already present in the previous
version.

Marco Roello
ma**********@cn rservice.it
Jan 26 '06
54 6512
abunet wrote:
Thanks fou your opinions.

When I develop a product, and I release a new version of it, my customers
aren't so open. But since now, I won't care of their opinion.


In my opinion, it is Microsoft's sole purpose to release a product, then
define that as the industry standard and expect everyone to follow it,
then release the next version of the product, standards be damned, and
then expect everyone to change to their new model that is never
backwards compatible.
Feb 2 '06 #41
Christopher Reed wrote:
My point is that you disagree with this point of view. However, just
because you disagree with the approach doesn't mean Microsoft did something
wrong. It just means that you're not willing to accept their change in
approach. Nothing more, nothing less.


Their CONSTANT changing of approaches. MS completely alienates their
existing base of users with each release; always concerned about
attracting new users with 'new and better ways'.
Feb 2 '06 #42
Christopher Reed wrote:
You are not forced to anything. In all of this, you have a choice.


No you don't, you lost the option to choose when MS decided to tie the
development environment to the framework.

Bad for choice, great for MS.
Feb 2 '06 #43
Peter, you're the first person that have understood the meaning of this
thread. It make me less afraid to be the only one that belives in
compatibility.

Peter Franks ha scritto:
Christopher Reed wrote:
My point is that you disagree with this point of view. However, just
because you disagree with the approach doesn't mean Microsoft did
something wrong. It just means that you're not willing to accept
their change in approach. Nothing more, nothing less.

Their CONSTANT changing of approaches. MS completely alienates their
existing base of users with each release; always concerned about
attracting new users with 'new and better ways'.

Feb 2 '06 #44
Christopher,
Thanks for the post, but I can't understand your answer.
The point that I'm trying to make is that you are looking at the
"disadvanta ges" of VS 2005 when none of these changes should make any
difference at all to you
False. You're forgetting the time spent to find a solution for the
disadvantage, or the time spent to understand the changes. And time is cost.
If you cannot create a website using a text
editor and the .NET Framework (any version), then you need to step back
first and reevaluate your programming skills. I've never said that I can't.
Additionally, these "disadvanta ges" should be mere
inconveniences, not show-stoppers in your development progress. I've never said I've stopped something. When I started posting my question,
I'd already had found a workaround.

In the last post, I only wanted to specify that there are other products
(like VFP) that in several years didn't confuse their customers at every
upgrade of version.
So it demonstrates that is possible. Not more, not Less.

"Christophe r Reed" wrote:
You are not forced to anything. In all of this, you have a choice. One of
the advantages of the .NET Framework as a whole is that you can create
programs independent of Visual Studio, thus for no cost (except for the cost
of Windows). In fact, if you can't program in .NET without Visual Studio,
then I assert that you're not a programmer at all.

Programming is not all of the bells and whistles that the various IDEs that
exist in the development world; it's the code. Any self-respecting
programmer should be able to pull a text editor and start typing. You don't
need Intellisense, you don't need project files, you don't need drag and
drop functionality, etc. While all of these are nice to have and help in
the rapid application development process, if you can't code, the bells and
whistles are more of a distraction.

I had a boss once who loaded VB on his computer and he started messing
around with developing a series of forms for a new application he had in
mind. He was so impressed with himself until he got to a point where all he
had were forms with no code. The minute he started to add code to his
forms, he totally lost interest because he couldn't do it. Up until that
point in time, he thought he was programming in Visual Basic.
Unfortunately, with all the wizards and other tools that IDEs provide, there
are many more "programmer s" that shouldn't really exist.

The point that I'm trying to make is that you are looking at the
"disadvanta ges" of VS 2005 when none of these changes should make any
difference at all to you. If you cannot create a website using a text
editor and the .NET Framework (any version), then you need to step back
first and reevaluate your programming skills. If you are too dependent on
the IDE to accomplish your programming, then, as I stated earlier, you're
not a programmer at all. Additionally, these "disadvanta ges" should be mere
inconveniences, not show-stoppers in your development progress.
--
Christopher A. Reed
"The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient."

"abunet" <ab****@ab.it > wrote in message
news:99******** *************** ***********@mic rosoft.com...
Gabriel,

In general, I agree with your vision.
I know that I haven't many alternatives than accept changes that Microsoft
decide are better for me.

The main thread object was: Disadavantages. ...
This started when I found that the conversion of a VS2003 project to
VS2005
wasn't linear.
When VB programmers made the jump from VS6 to VS.NET, they found many
differences, and some features gone away. But VS6 and VS2002 shared only
the
Name.

In my opinion, it's inaccettable to be afraid that in a possible future
VS2006 version, my old projects have been to rewritten. Above all when a
new
Product is released every year.

Also I think that if you make a change to the project/solution structure,
you should inform the users about the changes. For what concernes DataSets
and NameSpace, I haven't found any MS document that talks about that. If
anyone have found them, please inform me.

Finally, I'd like to say that I'm also a Visual FoxPro developer. Now VFP
is
at version 9, and I since VFP5 (maybe VFP3 but I'm not sure), I dind't had
all this conversion projects, instead I always found many new features.
This demonstrates that a Team that write a good product, can maintain
compatibility and add functionalities , without making them in conflict.

Someone wrote in this thread:
"If you don't like VS2005, just stay in VS2003".

VS2003 can't generate .net 2.0 assemblies, so Microsoft forces me to buy
VS2005 to stay current. .NET tries to eliminate the dll HELL, and I
certanly
don't want to start with VS versions HELL.

Christopher wrote:
Web applications are not Windows applications.


I'm sorry for my English, maybe in Italian I could explain better my
opinions.

"Gabriel Magaña" wrote:

> the context of WebSite's in VS2005, and you don't need a project file
> at
> all with all those horrible paths and references.

Horrible? They're vital, they have to go somewhere...

> Project settings have now been moved to web.config and personally I
> prefer
> this, as it's just a text file I can edit without worrying about
> breaking
> a project or confusing the Source Control.

How does a project file confuse source control? Plus if you use bad
syntax
it's just as easy to break web.config. Project files are also text
files,
they just happen to have a different syntax.

> VS2005 you can delete your solution at any time and create a new one if
> you like without losing anything of any importance.

Well, you be the judge... Solution files are also text files, so open
one
up with notepad, and take a look at the data stored about web sites: It's
everything that used to be in the project file that they would have a
hard
time justifying putting into web.config, such as project configurations
(debug, release, etc... some source control configs, and a couple other
things. If you have changed any of these things away from their
defaults,
it is a pain to reconfigure everything if you switch solution files.

>The new model also makes it MUCH easier to switch from a FileSystem
>website
>running on a local box to an IIS website running on a FrontPage extended
>production server.

Much easier than what? file system based web sites are new with VS2005
no?

> I'm pretty sure you can create six solutions all pointing to the same
> website if you want.

Yep, just re-configure each solution. Might be easier to cut and paste
the
settings between solution files.

> You can still right-click a file and choose "Exclude from Project" and
> it
> will rename it as *.exclude and show it greyed out in the IDE.

It's not the same as "exclude from source control." There are many files
that one might want to keep in a project, but exclude from source control
(images, javascript/images from third party libraries, etc...).

> You can build just one page if you want, and if you choose "build"
> instead
> of "rebuild" it will do an incremental build so it only builds the web
> pages that have changed. With a well designed site using App_Code etc,
> it's pretty quick to do incremental.

I do not trust building to catch all the errors though. Rebuilding the
solution regularly is a good habit to have, it might save hours from
chasing
"ghost errors," errors that go away when you do a full rebuild.

> This is because Microsoft don't know how to write efficient code and
> have
> no incentive to do so - take a look at Vista beta if you don't believe
> me - slow and bloated beyond belief.

It is not fair to expect high performance and stability out of a beta
version... If you were gonna get that, then it would not be a beta,
would
it?

Anyway, I just get the sense in general that web sites/applications in
ASP.NET are a couple generations behind in maturity compared to WinForms
applications. MS just came out with this new way of doing things and
managed to piss off many people by oversimplifying the model and removing
features.

You really cannot say, for example, "lose the stupid references to
outside
objects" because those references are vital.... You also cannot say
"let's
treat web applications as if they were HTML web sites." They are not
simple
web sites, if we were able to do what we want to do with Dreamweaver, why
would we be VS users?

Like someone said: Make it as simple as possible, but no simpler.


Feb 2 '06 #45
On Mon, 30 Jan 2006 23:54:09 +0000, Gerry Hickman
<ge********@yah oo.co.uk> wrote:
Scott Allen wrote:
Ah, I think I found the culprit.

There appears to be a bug in the VS2005 xsd template.


This is what I was wondering; is it correct to say that "namespaces " in
general are working in VS2005, but there's a problem with DataSets that
use xsd?


Yes, I'd say that is correct.

--
Scott
http://www.OdeToCode.com/blogs/scott/
Feb 2 '06 #46
On Tue, 31 Jan 2006 01:16:27 -0800, abunet <ab****@ab.it > wrote:
Thanks Scott.

You've found one.
And what about the code behind generated for WebForms in subfolders? There
Namespaces are not added to.


Sorry about that - dropped out of civilization for a bit.

I don't think putting WebForm classes into namespaces is entirely
useful. In fact, I've only seen trouble result when coupling too
closely to the code-behind class for a web form. It's best if they are
out on there own and remain anonymous.

Nevertheless, if you want to use the same model as 2003 in 2005, then
you'll want to use Web Application Projects [1]. Although it is
missing some features currently, it will be a full blown supported
package by MS.

[1] http://webproject.scottgu.com/

--
Scott
http://www.OdeToCode.com/blogs/scott/
Feb 2 '06 #47
On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 07:50:43 -0800, Peter Franks <no**@none.co m>
wrote:
Christopher Reed wrote:
My point is that you disagree with this point of view. However, just
because you disagree with the approach doesn't mean Microsoft did something
wrong. It just means that you're not willing to accept their change in
approach. Nothing more, nothing less.


Their CONSTANT changing of approaches. MS completely alienates their
existing base of users with each release; always concerned about
attracting new users with 'new and better ways'.


MS has essentially admitted to a mistake [1]. Although many people
like the new model, migration has proved difficult. Thus, "Web
Application Projects" [2] were born.

[1] http://weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/archi...16/433374.aspx

[2] http://webproject.scottgu.com/

--
Scott
http://www.OdeToCode.com/blogs/scott/
Feb 2 '06 #48
Peter Franks wrote:
Their CONSTANT changing of approaches. MS completely alienates their
existing base of users with each release; always concerned about
attracting new users with 'new and better ways'.


Personally I agree with this, although it's important to separate
deliberate "forced change for political reasons" and genuine
technological advantage where you have to move from an earlier model.

I think we've seen far too much hype and politics recently and very
little technical innovation. Vista is a case in point.

--
Gerry Hickman (London UK)
Feb 2 '06 #49
abunet wrote:
Peter, you're the first person that have understood the meaning of this
thread. It make me less afraid to be the only one that belives in
compatibility.


Thing is; their model is great for home user types who dabble, but it's
a headache for people who have to do real work. Complex systems and web
applications have run on UNIX/LINUX for years with hardly a reboot in
sight and are easy to migrate to new servers, but Microsoft's software
needs constant attention and patching. It's great if you're a lone user
with Admin rights and do everything in the GUI, but not so good when you
want to maintain it on hundreds of machines at a remote location.

--
Gerry Hickman (London UK)
Feb 2 '06 #50

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