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There has to be a better way to develop web applications.

I realize I'm learning web development and there is a STEEP learning curve,
but so far I've had to learn:

HTML
XML
JavaScript
ASP.NET using VB.NET
..NET Framework
ADO.NET
SSL
FormAuthenticat ion
(and probably a few more things)

Now call me crazy, but this hog pog of languages & technologies is
ridiculous!! The simplest of tasks become major R&D efforts (setting the
enable state of a control on another ASPX page in a frame for example). And
XML, OMG that has got to be the most ineffecient way to write out data I've
ever seen -- the overhead is staggering!! So far the research I've seen are
"frames are evil" -- great so freakin' helpful. This is just crazy, if the
development community has to continue on in this bizarre environment of
languages and technology, then web application development is never going to
mature and become cost effective for companies to exploit.

This is NOT an efficient way to get work done -- just the cost to get
developers up to speed on all the technology can doom a project from the
start. The pipe dream of using ASP.NET with VB.NET and .NET framework ONLY
for web development is just that -- a pipe dream, for only the simplest of
applications could anyone get away with just those three technology/tools.

I just don't understand -- terms such as portability get tossed around, but
the bottom line is, if you elect to use .NET Framework and ASP.NET your
bound to MS server OS. And, if this is all done in the name of
"portabilit y" (at the cost of performance) how often are you folks moving
servers around and changing platforms?? If platforms are changing that
frequently, that begs the question why?! It's like building something for
5% that may need it while the majority don't -- so the majority have to take
the penalty. There has got to be a better way?

Rob.
Nov 19 '05 #1
43 3418

"Rob R. Ainscough" <ro*****@pacbel l.net> wrote in message
news:uw******** *****@tk2msftng p13.phx.gbl...
[...snip...]

TROLL POST ALERT!
Nov 19 '05 #2
Trolls usually do one liners, kinda like what you just posted.

So do you have an opinion or do you just like to call everyone a Troll? I
think it is often called, I can't deal with this reality, so lets bring out
the "Troll Defense". -- I think it goes something like this -- "The fabric
of time is being questioned, therefore he must be a Troll"

Your input has demonstrate your value.

"Sean M" <ta******@hotma il.com> wrote in message
news:O8******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP10.phx.gbl...

"Rob R. Ainscough" <ro*****@pacbel l.net> wrote in message
news:uw******** *****@tk2msftng p13.phx.gbl...
[...snip...]

TROLL POST ALERT!

Nov 19 '05 #3
Hello,

first of all. Using .NET and ASP.NET does not tie you to MS OS. There's also
open-source implementation for non-MS OS's
http://www.mono-project.com

Otherwise it is somewhat true. The term jungle has increased a lot,
however.NET is a effort to better as it ties APIs for these things together
in the Framework. If you try to do the same with previous versions of MS
technologies, you'd need to install tons of separate libraries such as
MSXML, MDAC (though .NET requires certain version too but that usually
exists with newer OS's).

Your example of XML being overhead is also true,. However there are
alternatives such as binary serialization, remoting etc etc. So iut's also
case.specific, not just always generally a problem.

It's a large topic to discuss but I understand the pain.

--
Teemu Keiski
ASP.NET MVP, AspInsider
Finland, EU
http://blogs.aspadvice.com/joteke
Nov 19 '05 #4
re:
if you elect to use .NET Framework and ASP.NET your bound to MS server OS.
Rob, take a look at :

http://www.dotnetpowered.com/languages.aspx
for a list of the languages/OS's which you can use with .Net.

You may have to reconsider your statement
quoted above after you see that page.

Sure, the learning curve is steep, but it's no more
steep than any other web platform's learning curve.

Progress demands fast change.

Complaining about the pace of change won't get you anywhere,
except to the place where archaic stuff is archived.

In any case, what do you suggest as an alternative ?

Juan T. Llibre
ASP.NET MVP
http://asp.net.do/foros/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español
Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
=============== =======

"Rob R. Ainscough" <ro*****@pacbel l.net> wrote in message
news:uw******** *****@tk2msftng p13.phx.gbl...I realize I'm learning web development and there is a STEEP learning curve, but so far
I've had to learn:

HTML
XML
JavaScript
ASP.NET using VB.NET
.NET Framework
ADO.NET
SSL
FormAuthenticat ion
(and probably a few more things)

Now call me crazy, but this hog pog of languages & technologies is ridiculous!! The
simplest of tasks become major R&D efforts (setting the enable state of a control on
another ASPX page in a frame for example). And XML, OMG that has got to be the most
ineffecient way to write out data I've ever seen -- the overhead is staggering!! So far
the research I've seen are "frames are evil" -- great so freakin' helpful. This is just
crazy, if the development community has to continue on in this bizarre environment of
languages and technology, then web application development is never going to mature and
become cost effective for companies to exploit.

This is NOT an efficient way to get work done -- just the cost to get developers up to
speed on all the technology can doom a project from the start. The pipe dream of using
ASP.NET with VB.NET and .NET framework ONLY for web development is just that -- a pipe
dream, for only the simplest of applications could anyone get away with just those three
technology/tools.

I just don't understand -- terms such as portability get tossed around, but the bottom
line is, if you elect to use .NET Framework and ASP.NET your bound to MS server OS.
And, if this is all done in the name of "portabilit y" (at the cost of performance) how
often are you folks moving servers around and changing platforms?? If platforms are
changing that frequently, that begs the question why?! It's like building something for
5% that may need it while the majority don't -- so the majority have to take the
penalty. There has got to be a better way?

Rob.

Nov 19 '05 #5
"Rob R. Ainscough" <ro*****@pacbel l.net> wrote in message
news:uw******** *****@tk2msftng p13.phx.gbl...
There has got to be a better way?


So why don't you develop it, smart-arse, instead of whinging because you're
having to do some learning...?

No-one's forcing you to use .NET.

No-one's forcing you to write a single line of code.

No-one's forcing you even to own a PC.
Nov 19 '05 #6
Yes, I do actually like Serialization and use it more often.

I didn't realize it was available for non-MS. Does the non-MS
implementation ofer identical feature sets and is it stable? I haven't seen
any hosting services that offer it or support it so I'd imagine it would be
a manage in-house situation?

I think the dev tools are a LONG way off from any real sense of
"unificatio n" -- VS 2005 doesn't appear to be much different, basically
fixes and extends on things that should have been part of VS 2003.

I'm sure it is a little better than it was with just ASP, but we're going on
5 years now and it feels like the dev tools just aren't progressing at a
pace they should be to keep up with demand. RAD is what it is about and it
really doesn't feel any fast today than it did 5 years ago.

Rob.

"Teemu Keiski" <jo****@aspalli ance.com> wrote in message
news:eA******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP12.phx.gbl...
Hello,

first of all. Using .NET and ASP.NET does not tie you to MS OS. There's
also open-source implementation for non-MS OS's
http://www.mono-project.com

Otherwise it is somewhat true. The term jungle has increased a lot,
however.NET is a effort to better as it ties APIs for these things
together in the Framework. If you try to do the same with previous
versions of MS technologies, you'd need to install tons of separate
libraries such as MSXML, MDAC (though .NET requires certain version too
but that usually exists with newer OS's).

Your example of XML being overhead is also true,. However there are
alternatives such as binary serialization, remoting etc etc. So iut's also
case.specific, not just always generally a problem.

It's a large topic to discuss but I understand the pain.

--
Teemu Keiski
ASP.NET MVP, AspInsider
Finland, EU
http://blogs.aspadvice.com/joteke

Nov 19 '05 #7
Juan,

That is good, but think about what your just pointed out. 97% of the listed
languages are used by <2% of the dev community -- flexible yes, but
important to RAD (rapid application development), no.

I have no problem with "Change", I do have a problem of change for the sake
of change OR change to benefit the few but penalizes the majority. I do
find it funny you point out a list of supported languages, some VERY archaic
that can now be used with .NET. Your sending a confusing message.

I don't care that I would need to learn A new language (as in one), but it
does me NO good to learned several new languages all of which are simply
different syntaxs (or exist to bridge the gap) that are ultimately used to
turn concepts into reality. All languages ultimately do the same thing and
people argue for days that language X is better than language Y, but the
reality is most good developers just want the best tool available that is
easiest to translate spec into code into reality -- as a developer, I don't
mind learning a new language, just make sure that is it -- businesses can't
afford to keep sending developers off to learn the lastest fad language
which will go out of "favor" in a few years for the next "fad" language.
Sure it maybe a money making scheme for Microsoft, but it doesn't do the
business world any good. I mean, I see resumes all the time with a list of
90 languages long and someone is "proud" of that fact -- think about it, it
is really a pretty sad state of affairs.

Rob.

"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@ nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:Oi******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP09.phx.gbl...
re:
if you elect to use .NET Framework and ASP.NET your bound to MS server
OS.


Rob, take a look at :

http://www.dotnetpowered.com/languages.aspx
for a list of the languages/OS's which you can use with .Net.

You may have to reconsider your statement
quoted above after you see that page.

Sure, the learning curve is steep, but it's no more
steep than any other web platform's learning curve.

Progress demands fast change.

Complaining about the pace of change won't get you anywhere,
except to the place where archaic stuff is archived.

In any case, what do you suggest as an alternative ?

Juan T. Llibre
ASP.NET MVP
http://asp.net.do/foros/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español
Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
=============== =======

"Rob R. Ainscough" <ro*****@pacbel l.net> wrote in message
news:uw******** *****@tk2msftng p13.phx.gbl...
I realize I'm learning web development and there is a STEEP learning
curve, but so far I've had to learn:

HTML
XML
JavaScript
ASP.NET using VB.NET
.NET Framework
ADO.NET
SSL
FormAuthenticat ion
(and probably a few more things)

Now call me crazy, but this hog pog of languages & technologies is
ridiculous!! The simplest of tasks become major R&D efforts (setting the
enable state of a control on another ASPX page in a frame for example).
And XML, OMG that has got to be the most ineffecient way to write out
data I've ever seen -- the overhead is staggering!! So far the research
I've seen are "frames are evil" -- great so freakin' helpful. This is
just crazy, if the development community has to continue on in this
bizarre environment of languages and technology, then web application
development is never going to mature and become cost effective for
companies to exploit.

This is NOT an efficient way to get work done -- just the cost to get
developers up to speed on all the technology can doom a project from the
start. The pipe dream of using ASP.NET with VB.NET and .NET framework
ONLY for web development is just that -- a pipe dream, for only the
simplest of applications could anyone get away with just those three
technology/tools.

I just don't understand -- terms such as portability get tossed around,
but the bottom line is, if you elect to use .NET Framework and ASP.NET
your bound to MS server OS. And, if this is all done in the name of
"portabilit y" (at the cost of performance) how often are you folks moving
servers around and changing platforms?? If platforms are changing that
frequently, that begs the question why?! It's like building something
for 5% that may need it while the majority don't -- so the majority have
to take the penalty. There has got to be a better way?

Rob.


Nov 19 '05 #8
Your objections are acknowledged.

What do you suggest as an alternate platform ?

Juan T. Llibre
ASP.NET MVP
http://asp.net.do/foros/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español
Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
=============== =======

"Rob R. Ainscough" <ro*****@pacbel l.net> wrote in message
news:O%******** ********@TK2MSF TNGP09.phx.gbl. ..
Juan,

That is good, but think about what your just pointed out. 97% of the listed languages
are used by <2% of the dev community -- flexible yes, but important to RAD (rapid
application development), no.

I have no problem with "Change", I do have a problem of change for the sake of change OR
change to benefit the few but penalizes the majority. I do find it funny you point out
a list of supported languages, some VERY archaic that can now be used with .NET. Your
sending a confusing message.

I don't care that I would need to learn A new language (as in one), but it does me NO
good to learned several new languages all of which are simply different syntaxs (or
exist to bridge the gap) that are ultimately used to turn concepts into reality. All
languages ultimately do the same thing and people argue for days that language X is
better than language Y, but the reality is most good developers just want the best tool
available that is easiest to translate spec into code into reality -- as a developer, I
don't mind learning a new language, just make sure that is it -- businesses can't afford
to keep sending developers off to learn the lastest fad language which will go out of
"favor" in a few years for the next "fad" language. Sure it maybe a money making scheme
for Microsoft, but it doesn't do the business world any good. I mean, I see resumes all
the time with a list of 90 languages long and someone is "proud" of that fact -- think
about it, it is really a pretty sad state of affairs.

Rob.

"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@ nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:Oi******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP09.phx.gbl...
re:
if you elect to use .NET Framework and ASP.NET your bound to MS server OS.


Rob, take a look at :

http://www.dotnetpowered.com/languages.aspx
for a list of the languages/OS's which you can use with .Net.

You may have to reconsider your statement
quoted above after you see that page.

Sure, the learning curve is steep, but it's no more
steep than any other web platform's learning curve.

Progress demands fast change.

Complaining about the pace of change won't get you anywhere,
except to the place where archaic stuff is archived.

In any case, what do you suggest as an alternative ?

Juan T. Llibre
ASP.NET MVP
http://asp.net.do/foros/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español
Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
=============== =======

"Rob R. Ainscough" <ro*****@pacbel l.net> wrote in message
news:uw******** *****@tk2msftng p13.phx.gbl...
I realize I'm learning web development and there is a STEEP learning curve, but so far
I've had to learn:

HTML
XML
JavaScript
ASP.NET using VB.NET
.NET Framework
ADO.NET
SSL
FormAuthenticat ion
(and probably a few more things)

Now call me crazy, but this hog pog of languages & technologies is ridiculous!! The
simplest of tasks become major R&D efforts (setting the enable state of a control on
another ASPX page in a frame for example). And XML, OMG that has got to be the most
ineffecient way to write out data I've ever seen -- the overhead is staggering!! So
far the research I've seen are "frames are evil" -- great so freakin' helpful. This
is just crazy, if the development community has to continue on in this bizarre
environment of languages and technology, then web application development is never
going to mature and become cost effective for companies to exploit.

This is NOT an efficient way to get work done -- just the cost to get developers up to
speed on all the technology can doom a project from the start. The pipe dream of
using ASP.NET with VB.NET and .NET framework ONLY for web development is just that --
a pipe dream, for only the simplest of applications could anyone get away with just
those three technology/tools.

I just don't understand -- terms such as portability get tossed around, but the bottom
line is, if you elect to use .NET Framework and ASP.NET your bound to MS server OS.
And, if this is all done in the name of "portabilit y" (at the cost of performance) how
often are you folks moving servers around and changing platforms?? If platforms are
changing that frequently, that begs the question why?! It's like building something
for 5% that may need it while the majority don't -- so the majority have to take the
penalty. There has got to be a better way?

Rob.



Nov 19 '05 #9
Mark,

Because, learning the language of the day to accomplish the same tasks over
and over is NOT efficient -- that's why. Like I said, listing 90 languages
on my resume is more of an embarrassment than an accomplishment. The
concepts don't change, only the syntax and all the restrictions and
limitations that go with it.

MS have the resources, not I -- and we should be there by now -- but as it
stands today, we're a good 5-10 years away.

No one is forcing you to post a response -- so what is your point?? So what
is your point? Don't complain, don't make waves, just accept it -- is that
how you think -- be a sheep, baaa baaa baaa

Rob.

"Mark Rae" <ma**@mark-N-O-S-P-A-M-rae.co.uk> wrote in message
news:uc******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP12.phx.gbl...
"Rob R. Ainscough" <ro*****@pacbel l.net> wrote in message
news:uw******** *****@tk2msftng p13.phx.gbl...
There has got to be a better way?


So why don't you develop it, smart-arse, instead of whinging because
you're having to do some learning...?

No-one's forcing you to use .NET.

No-one's forcing you to write a single line of code.

No-one's forcing you even to own a PC.

Nov 19 '05 #10

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