473,698 Members | 2,439 Online
Bytes | Software Development & Data Engineering Community
+ Post

Home Posts Topics Members FAQ

why Microsoft don't like frames...

simple, they don't like things that restrict the server-side controls... and
when it comes to frames, you need client side stuff and that stuff's up the
asp.net strategy.
right or wrong?
Nov 17 '05 #1
7 2990
Actually, the reasoning against frames is more complex:

1. Many users hate frames (mostly due to bad implementations that have
surfaced over the past few years0
2. You cannot bookmark an individual page with frames

I use client side script regularly in .NET. I do not normally use frames,
but I do have some apps where they make sense, and I utilize frames in those
apps.

The .NET server side controls simplify your life, where they make sense
(which is many, if not most, applications). If you chose not to use them,
you write a lot of extra code. This is not necessarily bad; it is just
another way at approaching your development problem.

--
Gregory A. Beamer
MVP; MCP: +I, SE, SD, DBA
Author: ADO.NET and XML: ASP.NET on the Edge

*************** *************** *************** *************** *************** *
****
Think Outside the Box!
*************** *************** *************** *************** *************** *
****
"dj Bass" <sp******@hotma il.com> wrote in message
news:uV******** *****@tk2msftng p13.phx.gbl...
simple, they don't like things that restrict the server-side controls... and when it comes to frames, you need client side stuff and that stuff's up the asp.net strategy.
right or wrong?

Nov 17 '05 #2
And yet, if you go to the starter kits at www.asp.net, they have all
these report demos that use frames. Probably so you can see the
header and scroll the detail.
"dj Bass" <sp******@hotma il.com> wrote in message news:<uV******* ******@tk2msftn gp13.phx.gbl>.. .
simple, they don't like things that restrict the server-side controls... and
when it comes to frames, you need client side stuff and that stuff's up the
asp.net strategy.
right or wrong?

Nov 17 '05 #3
My situation is that I've been called to port asp pages to asp.net... with
port being defined as rewriting the code the .net way, rather than getting
it working in VS.net.

A lot of the work relies on a tree section down the left hand side, and
through your selection, the differing screens have a control panel, then an
overview analyzing a database table, then a drill down into this table,
which currently is another frame.
+--------------------------------------------------------+
| tree | main
|
| | ooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooo ooo |
| | o control panel
o |
| | o
o |
| | ooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooo ooo |
| | o over view
o |
| | o
o |
| | o
o |
| | ooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooo ooo |
| | o detailed drill down o
|
| | o
o |
| | o
o |
| | ooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooo ooo |
+--------------------------------------------------------+
there's no reason why tree and main cause problems since a button click
simply launches another screen, but when you get a situation where a load of
records [overview] on a datagrid have selection, and you click on a button
on the [control panel], it's not possible to determine what records are
currently selected (i use a template column with check boxes to simulate
multiple selection), and therefore not posssible to do anything with those
selected columns.

Frames still are advantageous over DIV tags because frames are resizable,
catering for different resolutions and sizes that IE could be run at, where
the DIV is a set value, whether absolute or relative, it's still fixed.

Is it worth migrating to a DIV style main page where the drill downs and
datagrid objects are all written within DIV tags, rather than frames and
hence, other objects?

Thanks for your input.
Daniel.

"Cowboy (Gregory A. Beamer)" <No************ @comcast.netRem uvThis> wrote in
message news:%2******** ********@TK2MSF TNGP12.phx.gbl. ..
Actually, the reasoning against frames is more complex:

1. Many users hate frames (mostly due to bad implementations that have
surfaced over the past few years0
2. You cannot bookmark an individual page with frames

I use client side script regularly in .NET. I do not normally use frames,
but I do have some apps where they make sense, and I utilize frames in those apps.

The .NET server side controls simplify your life, where they make sense
(which is many, if not most, applications). If you chose not to use them,
you write a lot of extra code. This is not necessarily bad; it is just
another way at approaching your development problem.

--
Gregory A. Beamer
MVP; MCP: +I, SE, SD, DBA
Author: ADO.NET and XML: ASP.NET on the Edge

*************** *************** *************** *************** *************** * ****
Think Outside the Box!
*************** *************** *************** *************** *************** * ****
"dj Bass" <sp******@hotma il.com> wrote in message
news:uV******** *****@tk2msftng p13.phx.gbl...
simple, they don't like things that restrict the server-side controls...

and
when it comes to frames, you need client side stuff and that stuff's up

the
asp.net strategy.
right or wrong?


Nov 17 '05 #4
> Wrong. Frames have always been problematic.

problematic because they are client side? or is it in an ideal world we'd
like everything to work in the server side, which sucks, because everytime a
refresh on anything occurs, the whole page has to be loaded rather than
individual sections.

Frames can be resized, by the user, or by the client side script, which
DIV's etc can't do.

i'd say they're not used properly, not problematic.
Nov 17 '05 #5
In a web site with static HTML pages they are no problem at all. Using them
properly is problematic in any kind of web application. If you don't believe
me, just try to build a web application with frames. Use ASP, ASP.Net, PHP,
or whatever flavor of server-side technology you want. It can be done, but
it is problematic.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
http://www.takempis.com
Big things are made up of
lots of little things.

"dj Bass" <sp******@hotma il.com> wrote in message
news:e5******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP12.phx.gbl...
Wrong. Frames have always been problematic.
problematic because they are client side? or is it in an ideal world we'd
like everything to work in the server side, which sucks, because everytime

a refresh on anything occurs, the whole page has to be loaded rather than
individual sections.

Frames can be resized, by the user, or by the client side script, which
DIV's etc can't do.

i'd say they're not used properly, not problematic.

Nov 17 '05 #6
Daniel:

You have two issues here:

How do I layout my data?
How do I display individual data elements?

To the first (data layout), I would most likely lay out one after another
and allow the page to scroll. This will require "retraining " users, as the
info will not necessarily be contained on one screen (with scrolling
portions, of course - the frames). I do not see a lot of difference between
scrolling the whole page and scrolling single elements. You will need to
prototype the "new" way if you head that direction and ensure you do not
have an end user mutiny. If you continue with frames, take the time to fully
encapsulate each page. ASP is notorious for spaghetti code and pages that
are dependent on each other. .NET gives you the ability to straighten this
out, and separate the code and UI elements, as well. You can still have
client side script talk to individual frames and pass information (either
through some form of persistence (session variables or static (Shared
VB.NET) routines (careful with static, as users can bump into each other))
or through the querystring. You only seem to be more limited than ASP, as
you are not as familiar with it. I currently use querystring to set page
variables, although primarily for popup dialogs instead of frames.

Display is the method of getting the data on the page. DIV tag is an option,
but .NET has a bunch of great server controls, like the DataGrid, DataList
and Repeater, that allow you to layout your data. Unlike ASP, you simply
bind a DataTable or DataReader to the server control. You can also extend
many of these controls, as Dino Esposito does with the DataGrid in his ASP
..NET/ADO .NET book. The Repeater is the most flexible, as any HTML output is
legal.

What I am saying is the question of separating the Control Panel, Overview
and Drilldown into separate pages, or just separate elements on a single
page is a separate decision from the actual display of the data.

The .NET way
Here is one possibility: If your Control Panel, Overview and Drilldown are
elements that always behave the same, and have potential use in a variety of
applications, I would take the time (if you have it) to write them out as a
server control. You can then determine if it is best to slap the controls in
one page or have them in multiple page, with frames. You can even make it so
a user can choose which way they prefer to look at data, as creating the
frames version will simply be conquering the postback write of client side
JavaScript.

The main concern, in .NET, is making sure your UI and code are separate, and
that you are sticking to good software practices (encapsulation of code, et
al). While you can kludge ASP .NET by writing it like updated ASP, you will
end up with an unmanageable application.

Don't worry, we all went through the shock. I ended up moving to C#, from
VB, to make sure I was not confusing syntax with paradigm. When I first
started VB .NET, I was just trying to learn the new object model, not the
new methodology. If you are more into a C style language, learning .NET
concepts may be easier with VB .NET. I now can move back and forth between
VB .NET and C# with ease. I mess up the syntax every once in awhile, but VS
..NET is great at yelling at my "typos".

--
Gregory A. Beamer
MVP; MCP: +I, SE, SD, DBA
Author: ADO.NET and XML: ASP.NET on the Edge

*************** *************** *************** *************** *************** *
****
Think Outside the Box!
*************** *************** *************** *************** *************** *
****
"dj Bass" <sp******@hotma il.com> wrote in message
news:u8******** ******@tk2msftn gp13.phx.gbl...
My situation is that I've been called to port asp pages to asp.net... with
port being defined as rewriting the code the .net way, rather than getting
it working in VS.net.

A lot of the work relies on a tree section down the left hand side, and
through your selection, the differing screens have a control panel, then an overview analyzing a database table, then a drill down into this table,
which currently is another frame.
+--------------------------------------------------------+
| tree | main
|
| | ooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooo ooo |
| | o control panel
o |
| | o
o |
| | ooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooo ooo |
| | o over view
o |
| | o
o |
| | o
o |
| | ooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooo ooo |
| | o detailed drill down o |
| | o
o |
| | o
o |
| | ooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooo ooo |
+--------------------------------------------------------+
there's no reason why tree and main cause problems since a button click
simply launches another screen, but when you get a situation where a load of records [overview] on a datagrid have selection, and you click on a button
on the [control panel], it's not possible to determine what records are
currently selected (i use a template column with check boxes to simulate
multiple selection), and therefore not posssible to do anything with those
selected columns.

Frames still are advantageous over DIV tags because frames are resizable,
catering for different resolutions and sizes that IE could be run at, where the DIV is a set value, whether absolute or relative, it's still fixed.

Is it worth migrating to a DIV style main page where the drill downs and
datagrid objects are all written within DIV tags, rather than frames and
hence, other objects?

Thanks for your input.
Daniel.

"Cowboy (Gregory A. Beamer)" <No************ @comcast.netRem uvThis> wrote in message news:%2******** ********@TK2MSF TNGP12.phx.gbl. ..
Actually, the reasoning against frames is more complex:

1. Many users hate frames (mostly due to bad implementations that have
surfaced over the past few years0
2. You cannot bookmark an individual page with frames

I use client side script regularly in .NET. I do not normally use frames, but I do have some apps where they make sense, and I utilize frames in

those
apps.

The .NET server side controls simplify your life, where they make sense
(which is many, if not most, applications). If you chose not to use them, you write a lot of extra code. This is not necessarily bad; it is just
another way at approaching your development problem.

--
Gregory A. Beamer
MVP; MCP: +I, SE, SD, DBA
Author: ADO.NET and XML: ASP.NET on the Edge

*************** *************** *************** *************** *************** *
****
Think Outside the Box!

*************** *************** *************** *************** *************** *
****
"dj Bass" <sp******@hotma il.com> wrote in message
news:uV******** *****@tk2msftng p13.phx.gbl...
simple, they don't like things that restrict the server-side
controls... and
when it comes to frames, you need client side stuff and that stuff's
up the
asp.net strategy.
right or wrong?



Nov 17 '05 #7
The Starter Kits are great tools. I am not sure reporting will work 100% for
this user, but it would be a nice way to spice up the app.

--
Gregory A. Beamer
MVP; MCP: +I, SE, SD, DBA
Author: ADO.NET and XML: ASP.NET on the Edge

*************** *************** *************** *************** *************** *
****
Think Outside the Box!
*************** *************** *************** *************** *************** *
****
"jim corey" <jh*****@yahoo. com> wrote in message
news:1c******** *************** ***@posting.goo gle.com...
And yet, if you go to the starter kits at www.asp.net, they have all
these report demos that use frames. Probably so you can see the
header and scroll the detail.
"dj Bass" <sp******@hotma il.com> wrote in message

news:<uV******* ******@tk2msftn gp13.phx.gbl>.. .
simple, they don't like things that restrict the server-side controls... and when it comes to frames, you need client side stuff and that stuff's up the asp.net strategy.
right or wrong?

Nov 17 '05 #8

This thread has been closed and replies have been disabled. Please start a new discussion.

Similar topics

4
2013
by: Richard | last post by:
I have been working with PHP now for a few months and would like some knowledgeable advice on laying out PHP based web pages. I have noticed that some web pages that use PHP also use frames...like phpMyAdmin for instance. This gives the page easier readability when refreshing (do to PHP code) as the entries page does not update. But I was told many years ago by an elder that frames were not to be used...so what is the preferred layout for...
2
1880
by: les | last post by:
Hello, I just wonder what are the implications to use frames to build portal. I've seen some sites that are quite fast with frames but I just wonder if there are hidden "costs". I've tried to use in the past and I run into a lot of problems when I worked with environment where there were frame and no frames pages. Please let me know if frames are OK to use for serious portal.
1
4850
by: Jawahar Rajan | last post by:
All, I have an ASP site that uses frames two frames. (yes I should be using include files, but we started ou using frames so we have been stuck with frames.) When I get a page expired warning (I am not caching pages) and a user clicks refresh from the menu bar the user is taken back to the home page! The home page is a frame with a top frame that is repeated on each subsequent asp pages
0
1208
by: OlgaC | last post by:
I want to decide what should be displayed dependent on what security groups (2k server) the user belongs to. I don't appear to be able to do it with frames. Any help is much appreciated. Thanks Olga
40
2927
by: JohnnyCJohnny | last post by:
Is it pretty safe to say that almost all web surfers now use browsers that are Frames compatible? What are most people using these days? IE? Thanks
14
2264
by: Jim Hubbard | last post by:
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1774642,00.asp
7
2322
by: David Hayes | last post by:
I tried finding an answer on http://www.quirksmode.org/ without success. I am attempting a complicated Frames structure. I have made it work in IE, but not Netscape. I begin with three frames, where the two lower ones are within a Frameset within the master Frameset: 1111111111111111111
4
2111
by: Man-wai Chang | last post by:
Must I use CSS to layout the pages? -- .~. Might, Courage, Vision, SINCERITY. http://www.linux-sxs.org / v \ Simplicity is Beauty! May the Force and Farce be with you! /( _ )\ (Ubuntu 6.06) Linux 2.6.17.1 ^ ^ 16:57:01 up 2 days 6:55 0 users load average: 1.18 1.09 1.02 news://news.3home.net news://news.hkpcug.org news://news.newsgroup.com.hk
56
3837
by: Deepan HTML | last post by:
Hi All, Currently i am working in a framed environment where i have divided the window as 20% and 80% and the 20% is used for navigation purpose and right frame for displaying the orignal content. Now i want to Disable ad Enable the menu items which are placed in the left frame for navigation purpose. Can any of you input me with any idea as how to proceed? If you need any other information then please let me know.
0
8683
marktang
by: marktang | last post by:
ONU (Optical Network Unit) is one of the key components for providing high-speed Internet services. Its primary function is to act as an endpoint device located at the user's premises. However, people are often confused as to whether an ONU can Work As a Router. In this blog post, we’ll explore What is ONU, What Is Router, ONU & Router’s main usage, and What is the difference between ONU and Router. Let’s take a closer look ! Part I. Meaning of...
0
9170
Oralloy
by: Oralloy | last post by:
Hello folks, I am unable to find appropriate documentation on the type promotion of bit-fields when using the generalised comparison operator "<=>". The problem is that using the GNU compilers, it seems that the internal comparison operator "<=>" tries to promote arguments from unsigned to signed. This is as boiled down as I can make it. Here is my compilation command: g++-12 -std=c++20 -Wnarrowing bit_field.cpp Here is the code in...
1
8904
by: Hystou | last post by:
Overview: Windows 11 and 10 have less user interface control over operating system update behaviour than previous versions of Windows. In Windows 11 and 10, there is no way to turn off the Windows Update option using the Control Panel or Settings app; it automatically checks for updates and installs any it finds, whether you like it or not. For most users, this new feature is actually very convenient. If you want to control the update process,...
0
8876
tracyyun
by: tracyyun | last post by:
Dear forum friends, With the development of smart home technology, a variety of wireless communication protocols have appeared on the market, such as Zigbee, Z-Wave, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, etc. Each protocol has its own unique characteristics and advantages, but as a user who is planning to build a smart home system, I am a bit confused by the choice of these technologies. I'm particularly interested in Zigbee because I've heard it does some...
0
7741
agi2029
by: agi2029 | last post by:
Let's talk about the concept of autonomous AI software engineers and no-code agents. These AIs are designed to manage the entire lifecycle of a software development project—planning, coding, testing, and deployment—without human intervention. Imagine an AI that can take a project description, break it down, write the code, debug it, and then launch it, all on its own.... Now, this would greatly impact the work of software developers. The idea...
1
6531
isladogs
by: isladogs | last post by:
The next Access Europe User Group meeting will be on Wednesday 1 May 2024 starting at 18:00 UK time (6PM UTC+1) and finishing by 19:30 (7.30PM). In this session, we are pleased to welcome a new presenter, Adolph Dupré who will be discussing some powerful techniques for using class modules. He will explain when you may want to use classes instead of User Defined Types (UDT). For example, to manage the data in unbound forms. Adolph will...
0
5867
by: conductexam | last post by:
I have .net C# application in which I am extracting data from word file and save it in database particularly. To store word all data as it is I am converting the whole word file firstly in HTML and then checking html paragraph one by one. At the time of converting from word file to html my equations which are in the word document file was convert into image. Globals.ThisAddIn.Application.ActiveDocument.Select();...
2
2341
muto222
by: muto222 | last post by:
How can i add a mobile payment intergratation into php mysql website.
3
2007
bsmnconsultancy
by: bsmnconsultancy | last post by:
In today's digital era, a well-designed website is crucial for businesses looking to succeed. Whether you're a small business owner or a large corporation in Toronto, having a strong online presence can significantly impact your brand's success. BSMN Consultancy, a leader in Website Development in Toronto offers valuable insights into creating effective websites that not only look great but also perform exceptionally well. In this comprehensive...

By using Bytes.com and it's services, you agree to our Privacy Policy and Terms of Use.

To disable or enable advertisements and analytics tracking please visit the manage ads & tracking page.