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Locked out of Access database

P: n/a
First, a brief explanation of why this has happened. I purchased, what
I thought, was a fully functional program written in Access last year
from a local programmer. This program was to be used as my POS for an
online DVD store. It turns out that what the programmer actually gave
me was a "license" to use his software. This was not the agreement we
made, and he knows this. He took advantage of the fact that I knew
very little about software, and led me to believe that I owned the
program.

About 4 months ago, when logging in to my database, a message popped
up saying to call the programmer for an update. I called and he have
me a 7 digit number to enter when this message pops up. I entered it
and got in. This message popped up again about a month ago and I
entered the same number, which got me into the database. This message
popped up again a week ago. I entered the same number, but this time
another message popped up, saying "err 4", and I was denied access to
my database.

My programmer and I are in the middle of a billing dispute over an
update he did for my program which didn't work. I called him about
this err 4 message, and this is when he told me that I actually only
have a license to use his program. He went on to say that until I pay
for the update mentioned earlier, he would not grant me access into my
database. I checked all of my past invoices from him, and none of them
mention anything about my purchasing a license. The first invoice I
paid, which was when I paid for the program, is billed as being for
the database and training. I pointed this out to him, and he says that
he never charged me for the license. The fact is that he never charged
me for a license because that was never part of our agreement.

I do not see an agreement between he and I any time in the near
future. I am locked out of a database which I have been entering my
stock in for almost a year. This is putting a massive strain on my
business.

I know very little about programming, actually nothing. I have
attempted to recover the database through a couple of programs. The
closest I have come was through a trial version of a program called
Nuclear Kernel Access. I don't really understand the program, but when
I open the database, I can see my database information (inventory,
users, etc).

If anyone out there could help me with this dilemma, I would greatly
appreciate it. Thanks, in advance.

chase

May 12 '07 #1
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15 Replies


P: n/a
On Sat, 12 May 2007 18:48:14 GMT, chaseexchange
<ch***********@yahoooooo.comwrote:

You probably need more the advice of a lawyer than of a programmer.
In most jurisdictions it is illegal for a company to lock you out of
your *data*. They can lock you out of the *application* that typically
accesses that data if for example you don't pay the annual license fee
that was agreed upon.

A good programmer should be able to write a provisional program pretty
quickly to access your most important data. That would buy you some
time to haggle about the details of the original agreement in front of
a Small Claims judge, and hedges your bets in case you cannot come to
an agreement.

-Tom.

>First, a brief explanation of why this has happened. I purchased, what
I thought, was a fully functional program written in Access last year
from a local programmer. This program was to be used as my POS for an
online DVD store. It turns out that what the programmer actually gave
me was a "license" to use his software. This was not the agreement we
made, and he knows this. He took advantage of the fact that I knew
very little about software, and led me to believe that I owned the
program.

About 4 months ago, when logging in to my database, a message popped
up saying to call the programmer for an update. I called and he have
me a 7 digit number to enter when this message pops up. I entered it
and got in. This message popped up again about a month ago and I
entered the same number, which got me into the database. This message
popped up again a week ago. I entered the same number, but this time
another message popped up, saying "err 4", and I was denied access to
my database.

My programmer and I are in the middle of a billing dispute over an
update he did for my program which didn't work. I called him about
this err 4 message, and this is when he told me that I actually only
have a license to use his program. He went on to say that until I pay
for the update mentioned earlier, he would not grant me access into my
database. I checked all of my past invoices from him, and none of them
mention anything about my purchasing a license. The first invoice I
paid, which was when I paid for the program, is billed as being for
the database and training. I pointed this out to him, and he says that
he never charged me for the license. The fact is that he never charged
me for a license because that was never part of our agreement.

I do not see an agreement between he and I any time in the near
future. I am locked out of a database which I have been entering my
stock in for almost a year. This is putting a massive strain on my
business.

I know very little about programming, actually nothing. I have
attempted to recover the database through a couple of programs. The
closest I have come was through a trial version of a program called
Nuclear Kernel Access. I don't really understand the program, but when
I open the database, I can see my database information (inventory,
users, etc).

If anyone out there could help me with this dilemma, I would greatly
appreciate it. Thanks, in advance.

chase
May 12 '07 #2

P: n/a
Thanks for your reply, Tom. I realize that you are probably not an
attorney, but since you obviously have a firm grasp on this stuff,
which I do not, I have a question.

Based on the following facts:

1. My original invoice from last year, which was when I thought I was
purchasing this program, states nothing about my purchasing a license
to use my programmer's software. It states simply secure database and
training for X amount of dollars.

2. During our recent email communications, my programmer told me in
one mail that I did not purchase the program, just a license to use
his software. Then, in a later email, he states that I never paid for
a license. I'm assuming it's not common practice for a programmer to
allow someone to use their software for free, and if a license is
obtained to use a programmer's software, there is some sort of
documentation showing this.

I never paid for a license because a license was never part of our
agreement, in writing, invoiced or verbally. My programmer was fully
aware that I thought I owned the program. He simply took advantage of
my ignorance.

My question is, legally, do you think the above facts would support my
side well?

Thanks for your help.

chase
On Sat, 12 May 2007 13:06:32 -0700, Tom van Stiphout
<no*************@cox.netwrote:
>On Sat, 12 May 2007 18:48:14 GMT, chaseexchange
<ch***********@yahoooooo.comwrote:

You probably need more the advice of a lawyer than of a programmer.
In most jurisdictions it is illegal for a company to lock you out of
your *data*. They can lock you out of the *application* that typically
accesses that data if for example you don't pay the annual license fee
that was agreed upon.

A good programmer should be able to write a provisional program pretty
quickly to access your most important data. That would buy you some
time to haggle about the details of the original agreement in front of
a Small Claims judge, and hedges your bets in case you cannot come to
an agreement.

-Tom.

>>First, a brief explanation of why this has happened. I purchased, what
I thought, was a fully functional program written in Access last year
from a local programmer. This program was to be used as my POS for an
online DVD store. It turns out that what the programmer actually gave
me was a "license" to use his software. This was not the agreement we
made, and he knows this. He took advantage of the fact that I knew
very little about software, and led me to believe that I owned the
program.

About 4 months ago, when logging in to my database, a message popped
up saying to call the programmer for an update. I called and he have
me a 7 digit number to enter when this message pops up. I entered it
and got in. This message popped up again about a month ago and I
entered the same number, which got me into the database. This message
popped up again a week ago. I entered the same number, but this time
another message popped up, saying "err 4", and I was denied access to
my database.

My programmer and I are in the middle of a billing dispute over an
update he did for my program which didn't work. I called him about
this err 4 message, and this is when he told me that I actually only
have a license to use his program. He went on to say that until I pay
for the update mentioned earlier, he would not grant me access into my
database. I checked all of my past invoices from him, and none of them
mention anything about my purchasing a license. The first invoice I
paid, which was when I paid for the program, is billed as being for
the database and training. I pointed this out to him, and he says that
he never charged me for the license. The fact is that he never charged
me for a license because that was never part of our agreement.

I do not see an agreement between he and I any time in the near
future. I am locked out of a database which I have been entering my
stock in for almost a year. This is putting a massive strain on my
business.

I know very little about programming, actually nothing. I have
attempted to recover the database through a couple of programs. The
closest I have come was through a trial version of a program called
Nuclear Kernel Access. I don't really understand the program, but when
I open the database, I can see my database information (inventory,
users, etc).

If anyone out there could help me with this dilemma, I would greatly
appreciate it. Thanks, in advance.

chase
May 12 '07 #3

P: n/a
On Sat, 12 May 2007 20:42:50 GMT, chaseexchange
<ch***********@yahoooooo.comwrote:

Yes they do, but my mom tought me every conflict has two sides :-)

There were probably some documents before the original invoice.
Something like a statement of work, or some contract where you hired
this individual to write this program for you. Those may have relevant
information about the licensing situation.

Even if you win, the programmer may still not want to support you. Our
company has won a few times in small claims court, but we never saw a
dime.

Perhaps you can have someone mediate for you. Perhaps the Better
Business Bureau (I'm assuming you reside in the USA)? I'm sure you
have already considered a face-to-face meeting with the programmer.

-Tom.
>Thanks for your reply, Tom. I realize that you are probably not an
attorney, but since you obviously have a firm grasp on this stuff,
which I do not, I have a question.

Based on the following facts:

1. My original invoice from last year, which was when I thought I was
purchasing this program, states nothing about my purchasing a license
to use my programmer's software. It states simply secure database and
training for X amount of dollars.

2. During our recent email communications, my programmer told me in
one mail that I did not purchase the program, just a license to use
his software. Then, in a later email, he states that I never paid for
a license. I'm assuming it's not common practice for a programmer to
allow someone to use their software for free, and if a license is
obtained to use a programmer's software, there is some sort of
documentation showing this.

I never paid for a license because a license was never part of our
agreement, in writing, invoiced or verbally. My programmer was fully
aware that I thought I owned the program. He simply took advantage of
my ignorance.

My question is, legally, do you think the above facts would support my
side well?

Thanks for your help.

chase
On Sat, 12 May 2007 13:06:32 -0700, Tom van Stiphout
<no*************@cox.netwrote:
>>On Sat, 12 May 2007 18:48:14 GMT, chaseexchange
<ch***********@yahoooooo.comwrote:

You probably need more the advice of a lawyer than of a programmer.
In most jurisdictions it is illegal for a company to lock you out of
your *data*. They can lock you out of the *application* that typically
accesses that data if for example you don't pay the annual license fee
that was agreed upon.

A good programmer should be able to write a provisional program pretty
quickly to access your most important data. That would buy you some
time to haggle about the details of the original agreement in front of
a Small Claims judge, and hedges your bets in case you cannot come to
an agreement.

-Tom.

>>>First, a brief explanation of why this has happened. I purchased, what
I thought, was a fully functional program written in Access last year
from a local programmer. This program was to be used as my POS for an
online DVD store. It turns out that what the programmer actually gave
me was a "license" to use his software. This was not the agreement we
made, and he knows this. He took advantage of the fact that I knew
very little about software, and led me to believe that I owned the
program.

About 4 months ago, when logging in to my database, a message popped
up saying to call the programmer for an update. I called and he have
me a 7 digit number to enter when this message pops up. I entered it
and got in. This message popped up again about a month ago and I
entered the same number, which got me into the database. This message
popped up again a week ago. I entered the same number, but this time
another message popped up, saying "err 4", and I was denied access to
my database.

My programmer and I are in the middle of a billing dispute over an
update he did for my program which didn't work. I called him about
this err 4 message, and this is when he told me that I actually only
have a license to use his program. He went on to say that until I pay
for the update mentioned earlier, he would not grant me access into my
database. I checked all of my past invoices from him, and none of them
mention anything about my purchasing a license. The first invoice I
paid, which was when I paid for the program, is billed as being for
the database and training. I pointed this out to him, and he says that
he never charged me for the license. The fact is that he never charged
me for a license because that was never part of our agreement.

I do not see an agreement between he and I any time in the near
future. I am locked out of a database which I have been entering my
stock in for almost a year. This is putting a massive strain on my
business.

I know very little about programming, actually nothing. I have
attempted to recover the database through a couple of programs. The
closest I have come was through a trial version of a program called
Nuclear Kernel Access. I don't really understand the program, but when
I open the database, I can see my database information (inventory,
users, etc).

If anyone out there could help me with this dilemma, I would greatly
appreciate it. Thanks, in advance.

chase
May 12 '07 #4

P: n/a
The only documentation between my programmer and I are the invoices
and my payments for them. However, your mom's words were wise.

If this does end up in small claims court, I doubt I'll go after any
monetary judgement. It all depends on just how difficult this proves
to be. All I want at the moment is my full program, as I originally
paid for. With this, I will no longer need his support as I will be
hiring someone else to handle problems in the program.

I have requested a face to face meeting with him 3 times over the past
week. He has completley ignored these requests. I hadn't considered
mediation through the Better Business Bureau (yes I'm in the US). Not
a bad idea, but I doubt he'll cooperate. He's basically taking the
attitude of pay me before I will do anything.

On Sat, 12 May 2007 14:44:07 -0700, Tom van Stiphout
<no*************@cox.netwrote:
>On Sat, 12 May 2007 20:42:50 GMT, chaseexchange
<ch***********@yahoooooo.comwrote:

Yes they do, but my mom tought me every conflict has two sides :-)

There were probably some documents before the original invoice.
Something like a statement of work, or some contract where you hired
this individual to write this program for you. Those may have relevant
information about the licensing situation.

Even if you win, the programmer may still not want to support you. Our
company has won a few times in small claims court, but we never saw a
dime.

Perhaps you can have someone mediate for you. Perhaps the Better
Business Bureau (I'm assuming you reside in the USA)? I'm sure you
have already considered a face-to-face meeting with the programmer.

-Tom.
>>Thanks for your reply, Tom. I realize that you are probably not an
attorney, but since you obviously have a firm grasp on this stuff,
which I do not, I have a question.

Based on the following facts:

1. My original invoice from last year, which was when I thought I was
purchasing this program, states nothing about my purchasing a license
to use my programmer's software. It states simply secure database and
training for X amount of dollars.

2. During our recent email communications, my programmer told me in
one mail that I did not purchase the program, just a license to use
his software. Then, in a later email, he states that I never paid for
a license. I'm assuming it's not common practice for a programmer to
allow someone to use their software for free, and if a license is
obtained to use a programmer's software, there is some sort of
documentation showing this.

I never paid for a license because a license was never part of our
agreement, in writing, invoiced or verbally. My programmer was fully
aware that I thought I owned the program. He simply took advantage of
my ignorance.

My question is, legally, do you think the above facts would support my
side well?

Thanks for your help.

chase
On Sat, 12 May 2007 13:06:32 -0700, Tom van Stiphout
<no*************@cox.netwrote:
>>>On Sat, 12 May 2007 18:48:14 GMT, chaseexchange
<ch***********@yahoooooo.comwrote:

You probably need more the advice of a lawyer than of a programmer.
In most jurisdictions it is illegal for a company to lock you out of
your *data*. They can lock you out of the *application* that typically
accesses that data if for example you don't pay the annual license fee
that was agreed upon.

A good programmer should be able to write a provisional program pretty
quickly to access your most important data. That would buy you some
time to haggle about the details of the original agreement in front of
a Small Claims judge, and hedges your bets in case you cannot come to
an agreement.

-Tom.
First, a brief explanation of why this has happened. I purchased, what
I thought, was a fully functional program written in Access last year
from a local programmer. This program was to be used as my POS for an
online DVD store. It turns out that what the programmer actually gave
me was a "license" to use his software. This was not the agreement we
made, and he knows this. He took advantage of the fact that I knew
very little about software, and led me to believe that I owned the
program.

About 4 months ago, when logging in to my database, a message popped
up saying to call the programmer for an update. I called and he have
me a 7 digit number to enter when this message pops up. I entered it
and got in. This message popped up again about a month ago and I
entered the same number, which got me into the database. This message
popped up again a week ago. I entered the same number, but this time
another message popped up, saying "err 4", and I was denied access to
my database.

My programmer and I are in the middle of a billing dispute over an
update he did for my program which didn't work. I called him about
this err 4 message, and this is when he told me that I actually only
have a license to use his program. He went on to say that until I pay
for the update mentioned earlier, he would not grant me access into my
database. I checked all of my past invoices from him, and none of them
mention anything about my purchasing a license. The first invoice I
paid, which was when I paid for the program, is billed as being for
the database and training. I pointed this out to him, and he says that
he never charged me for the license. The fact is that he never charged
me for a license because that was never part of our agreement.

I do not see an agreement between he and I any time in the near
future. I am locked out of a database which I have been entering my
stock in for almost a year. This is putting a massive strain on my
business.

I know very little about programming, actually nothing. I have
attempted to recover the database through a couple of programs. The
closest I have come was through a trial version of a program called
Nuclear Kernel Access. I don't really understand the program, but when
I open the database, I can see my database information (inventory,
users, etc).

If anyone out there could help me with this dilemma, I would greatly
appreciate it. Thanks, in advance.

chase
May 12 '07 #5

P: n/a
I, also, am not an attorney, so this is NOT a legal opinion.

Licensing software is by far the most common arrangement. You may not be
aware that is the case, but it _is_ the case for your copy of Windows, and
Microsoft Office, and just about every other commercial software package on
the market. The only way you can determine for certain what applies in your
case is to take all the material to a qualified attorney in your
jurisdiction for review, pay for his/her advice, and eventually, have the
case decided by the court if you cannot come to agreement.

Please do _not_, as you did with Tom, take this as occasion to ask
additional legal advice. If there are any attorneys who post to or read in
this newsgroup, they are here for Access Questions and Answers, not to deal
with legal issues.

Larry Linson
"chaseexchange" <ch***********@yahoooooo.comwrote in message
news:kt********************************@4ax.com...
Thanks for your reply, Tom. I realize that you are probably not an
attorney, but since you obviously have a firm grasp on this stuff,
which I do not, I have a question.

Based on the following facts:

1. My original invoice from last year, which was when I thought I was
purchasing this program, states nothing about my purchasing a license
to use my programmer's software. It states simply secure database and
training for X amount of dollars.

2. During our recent email communications, my programmer told me in
one mail that I did not purchase the program, just a license to use
his software. Then, in a later email, he states that I never paid for
a license. I'm assuming it's not common practice for a programmer to
allow someone to use their software for free, and if a license is
obtained to use a programmer's software, there is some sort of
documentation showing this.

I never paid for a license because a license was never part of our
agreement, in writing, invoiced or verbally. My programmer was fully
aware that I thought I owned the program. He simply took advantage of
my ignorance.

My question is, legally, do you think the above facts would support my
side well?

Thanks for your help.

chase
On Sat, 12 May 2007 13:06:32 -0700, Tom van Stiphout
<no*************@cox.netwrote:
>>On Sat, 12 May 2007 18:48:14 GMT, chaseexchange
<ch***********@yahoooooo.comwrote:

You probably need more the advice of a lawyer than of a programmer.
In most jurisdictions it is illegal for a company to lock you out of
your *data*. They can lock you out of the *application* that typically
accesses that data if for example you don't pay the annual license fee
that was agreed upon.

A good programmer should be able to write a provisional program pretty
quickly to access your most important data. That would buy you some
time to haggle about the details of the original agreement in front of
a Small Claims judge, and hedges your bets in case you cannot come to
an agreement.

-Tom.

>>>First, a brief explanation of why this has happened. I purchased, what
I thought, was a fully functional program written in Access last year
from a local programmer. This program was to be used as my POS for an
online DVD store. It turns out that what the programmer actually gave
me was a "license" to use his software. This was not the agreement we
made, and he knows this. He took advantage of the fact that I knew
very little about software, and led me to believe that I owned the
program.

About 4 months ago, when logging in to my database, a message popped
up saying to call the programmer for an update. I called and he have
me a 7 digit number to enter when this message pops up. I entered it
and got in. This message popped up again about a month ago and I
entered the same number, which got me into the database. This message
popped up again a week ago. I entered the same number, but this time
another message popped up, saying "err 4", and I was denied access to
my database.

My programmer and I are in the middle of a billing dispute over an
update he did for my program which didn't work. I called him about
this err 4 message, and this is when he told me that I actually only
have a license to use his program. He went on to say that until I pay
for the update mentioned earlier, he would not grant me access into my
database. I checked all of my past invoices from him, and none of them
mention anything about my purchasing a license. The first invoice I
paid, which was when I paid for the program, is billed as being for
the database and training. I pointed this out to him, and he says that
he never charged me for the license. The fact is that he never charged
me for a license because that was never part of our agreement.

I do not see an agreement between he and I any time in the near
future. I am locked out of a database which I have been entering my
stock in for almost a year. This is putting a massive strain on my
business.

I know very little about programming, actually nothing. I have
attempted to recover the database through a couple of programs. The
closest I have come was through a trial version of a program called
Nuclear Kernel Access. I don't really understand the program, but when
I open the database, I can see my database information (inventory,
users, etc).

If anyone out there could help me with this dilemma, I would greatly
appreciate it. Thanks, in advance.

chase

May 12 '07 #6

P: n/a
If you do not review this matter with an attorney who specializes in
intellectual property law, I suspect you may waste a good deal of time and
money pursuing it -- and still not get what you want.

Just to put things in perspective, how much money did you pay initially (it
would be esp. enlightening to know how many hours you were billed and the
hourly rate), and how much is he asking for the update?

Have you discussed with him that you don't believe he can legally hold your
data hostage, and how you can retrieve it?

Larry Linson
Microsoft Access MVP

"chaseexchange" <ch***********@yahoooooo.comwrote in message
news:j0********************************@4ax.com...
The only documentation between my programmer and I are the invoices
and my payments for them. However, your mom's words were wise.

If this does end up in small claims court, I doubt I'll go after any
monetary judgement. It all depends on just how difficult this proves
to be. All I want at the moment is my full program, as I originally
paid for. With this, I will no longer need his support as I will be
hiring someone else to handle problems in the program.

I have requested a face to face meeting with him 3 times over the past
week. He has completley ignored these requests. I hadn't considered
mediation through the Better Business Bureau (yes I'm in the US). Not
a bad idea, but I doubt he'll cooperate. He's basically taking the
attitude of pay me before I will do anything.

On Sat, 12 May 2007 14:44:07 -0700, Tom van Stiphout
<no*************@cox.netwrote:
>>On Sat, 12 May 2007 20:42:50 GMT, chaseexchange
<ch***********@yahoooooo.comwrote:

Yes they do, but my mom tought me every conflict has two sides :-)

There were probably some documents before the original invoice.
Something like a statement of work, or some contract where you hired
this individual to write this program for you. Those may have relevant
information about the licensing situation.

Even if you win, the programmer may still not want to support you. Our
company has won a few times in small claims court, but we never saw a
dime.

Perhaps you can have someone mediate for you. Perhaps the Better
Business Bureau (I'm assuming you reside in the USA)? I'm sure you
have already considered a face-to-face meeting with the programmer.

-Tom.
>>>Thanks for your reply, Tom. I realize that you are probably not an
attorney, but since you obviously have a firm grasp on this stuff,
which I do not, I have a question.

Based on the following facts:

1. My original invoice from last year, which was when I thought I was
purchasing this program, states nothing about my purchasing a license
to use my programmer's software. It states simply secure database and
training for X amount of dollars.

2. During our recent email communications, my programmer told me in
one mail that I did not purchase the program, just a license to use
his software. Then, in a later email, he states that I never paid for
a license. I'm assuming it's not common practice for a programmer to
allow someone to use their software for free, and if a license is
obtained to use a programmer's software, there is some sort of
documentation showing this.

I never paid for a license because a license was never part of our
agreement, in writing, invoiced or verbally. My programmer was fully
aware that I thought I owned the program. He simply took advantage of
my ignorance.

My question is, legally, do you think the above facts would support my
side well?

Thanks for your help.

chase
On Sat, 12 May 2007 13:06:32 -0700, Tom van Stiphout
<no*************@cox.netwrote:

On Sat, 12 May 2007 18:48:14 GMT, chaseexchange
<ch***********@yahoooooo.comwrote:

You probably need more the advice of a lawyer than of a programmer.
In most jurisdictions it is illegal for a company to lock you out of
your *data*. They can lock you out of the *application* that typically
accesses that data if for example you don't pay the annual license fee
that was agreed upon.

A good programmer should be able to write a provisional program pretty
quickly to access your most important data. That would buy you some
time to haggle about the details of the original agreement in front of
a Small Claims judge, and hedges your bets in case you cannot come to
an agreement.

-Tom.
>First, a brief explanation of why this has happened. I purchased, what
>I thought, was a fully functional program written in Access last year
>from a local programmer. This program was to be used as my POS for an
>online DVD store. It turns out that what the programmer actually gave
>me was a "license" to use his software. This was not the agreement we
>made, and he knows this. He took advantage of the fact that I knew
>very little about software, and led me to believe that I owned the
>program.
>
>About 4 months ago, when logging in to my database, a message popped
>up saying to call the programmer for an update. I called and he have
>me a 7 digit number to enter when this message pops up. I entered it
>and got in. This message popped up again about a month ago and I
>entered the same number, which got me into the database. This message
>popped up again a week ago. I entered the same number, but this time
>another message popped up, saying "err 4", and I was denied access to
>my database.
>
>My programmer and I are in the middle of a billing dispute over an
>update he did for my program which didn't work. I called him about
>this err 4 message, and this is when he told me that I actually only
>have a license to use his program. He went on to say that until I pay
>for the update mentioned earlier, he would not grant me access into my
>database. I checked all of my past invoices from him, and none of them
>mention anything about my purchasing a license. The first invoice I
>paid, which was when I paid for the program, is billed as being for
>the database and training. I pointed this out to him, and he says that
>he never charged me for the license. The fact is that he never charged
>me for a license because that was never part of our agreement.
>
>I do not see an agreement between he and I any time in the near
>future. I am locked out of a database which I have been entering my
>stock in for almost a year. This is putting a massive strain on my
>business.
>
>I know very little about programming, actually nothing. I have
>attempted to recover the database through a couple of programs. The
>closest I have come was through a trial version of a program called
>Nuclear Kernel Access. I don't really understand the program, but when
>I open the database, I can see my database information (inventory,
>users, etc).
>
>If anyone out there could help me with this dilemma, I would greatly
>appreciate it. Thanks, in advance.
>
>chase

May 13 '07 #7

P: n/a
"Larry Linson" <bo*****@localhost.notwrote in
news:iLC1i.14203$b67.10232@trnddc06:
Have you discussed with him that you don't believe he can legally
hold your data hostage, and how you can retrieve it?
He definitely cannot hold the data hostage, as he did not create it.
It belongs to you no matter what, and if he's holding it hostage as
blackmail, then that's going to put him in hot water once it comes
before legal authorities.

However, absent and agreement stating explicitly that you *own* the
program, signed by both parties, you have no grounds to claim any
rights to the program at all. The default presumption of the law is
that the copyright holder (i.e., the person who wrote the code) owns
the rights.

So, in summary:

1. you will probably very easily recover your data.

2. you probably have no legal leg to stand on with regard to rights
to the program beyond a license to use it.

This is pretty standard, but most people haven't a clue that they
don't own Microsoft Word, so I make it explicit in all the
agreements with my clients.

--
David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/
usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
May 13 '07 #8

P: n/a
1. My original invoice from last year, which was when I thought I was
purchasing this program, states nothing about my purchasing a license
to use my programmer's software. It states simply secure database and
training for X amount of dollars.

Well, it really a moot point your centering around a "licensing". What other
software in the last 20 years have your purchased where you get the rights
to modify the software? What is stopping you from changing that software,
and then re-selling it?

The license issue to me is really much a moot point. You did not hire a
developer to build a custom system from scratch, and make it clear that you
going to own that work. Playing the advocate here, why don't you tell me
what your experience in the past has been when you purchase software? (and,
lets pretend the judge is listening to you). When purchased word, or excel,
or this program, have you EVER had the ability to modify the program code?
(answer no). judge looks on,..says...yes..that seems about right.

The fact that NONE of the other software you purchased allows you to modify
it as you please speaks rather volumes about your previous experience. Why
would this change when purchasing excel, or purchasing this program?

Did you hire a developer to build you a system, or did you purchase a
existing system from him? Really that is all we need to know.

You can't purchased a DVD movie, and expect all of a sudden that you down
the rights to that DVD. Since you can't given any common sense examples of
purchasing content this prior to this case, you actually on a wild goose
chase considering the licensing issue.

The question is very simple:

did you hire a developer to build you a product in which after you can
re-sell to make a bunch of money, or do as you please with the product? Or
did you purchase a software product like you done for years and years?

The only new (moot) issue here is that you personally dealing with the
developer, and thus you ca have changes made to the product your purchase.
However, I am sure if you were large enough, you could have Microsoft
changes word for you....

Remember, the above discussion and thinking will be asked of you on this
issue. Writing novels, books, or movies (which you have experience in), it
standard fair that the authors own that work. Think about the DVD business
your in!!!!...who owns that DVD...you, or the producers?).
>
I never paid for a license because a license was never part of our
agreement, in writing, invoiced or verbally. My programmer was fully
aware that I thought I owned the program. He simply took advantage of
my ignorance.

My question is, legally, do you think the above facts would support my
side well?
What side you talking about? The lack of the license really makes no
difference if you think about his. So what, you purchased a license...now
what? or, lets reverse this, so what, you did not purchase a licence...what
difference does that make? Either way, it does not give you the source code
to the software, and thus you can't modify it.

Because it is standard fair that software, or dvd's, or just about any other
electronic content you purchase for the last 20 years does not give your
ownership...why would that change now?
>My programmer was fully
aware that I thought I owned the program.
I don't know if he thinks that. I willing got bet that he thought no way you
own the software. This is *especially* so if you purchased an existing
software package. Why would a developer give away something that you did not
develop, or pay to develop? That developer is brining you a software package
that you did not pay for to develop.

If you hired that developer, and started from scratch, and it was your
designs then you can certainly make a case that you own the software. This
is not different then any company that hires someone to build them a
table...it your table, and the designs are also your.

However, you not only brought in a outside consultant, but you ALSO
PURCHASED an existing software package. it is un-likely that anyone should
assume that purchasing a software package gives you the rights to that
package. It is not the norm, and your personal experience would bear this
out.

None of my clients own my software. Plain and simple. if the client wants
the source code, then additional costs and agreements are to be made.
Further, often I arrange to have the source code placed in escrow with my
lawyer with appropriate instructions based upon my death, or a failing of
business relationships.

Why would I give you a commercial product I spent the money to develop, and
allow you to change it, or re sell it? You did not pay for that previous
development. While I routine sell a product for $600, if the customer wants
full rights (and for to NOT sell to competitors..they going to have to fork
about $35,000 for that privilege).

Since your previous purchases of software can't show any ownership, why
would this one change? Did you really care, or read the license to Excel
when you purchased it? does the existence of a license for Excel really
change any of the above (it really does not).

I think the license issue is a wild goose chase, and really means nothing on
both sides of this issue....

I not a lawyer in anyway, shape or form here. So, take the above with a
grain of salt, but you can well see how this reasoning goes. If you want to
hire some developers (or consultants), and build a product, and then sell
it, you free to do so. However, assuming you can obtain that right with a
existing package that was BUILT OUTSIDE of your payroll, and prior to you
wanting new features added, I don't think you get very far. OUR personal
experience in past purchases of software likely shows what I speaking
about....
--
Albert D. Kallal (Access MVP)
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
pl*****************@msn.com
May 14 '07 #9

P: n/a
"chaseexchange" <ch***********@yahoooooo.comwrote in message
news:eu********************************@4ax.com...
>
I know very little about programming, actually nothing. I have
attempted to recover the database through a couple of programs. The
closest I have come was through a trial version of a program called
Nuclear Kernel Access. I don't really understand the program, but when
I open the database, I can see my database information (inventory,
users, etc).

If anyone out there could help me with this dilemma, I would greatly
appreciate it. Thanks, in advance.
I take it you've tried all the "soft" approaches like holding down the shift
key at startup and attempting to enable the bypass key.

Keith.
www.keithwilby.com

May 14 '07 #10

P: n/a
"Albert D. Kallal" <Pl*******************@msn.comwrote in
news:B1O1i.181043$DE1.54130@pd7urf2no:
Did you hire a developer to build you a system, or did you
purchase a existing system from him? Really that is all we need to
know.
Not even that. The issue is whether the coding was "work for hire"
or not. And there has to be a contract explicitly stating that it's
"work for hire" or, alternatively, that the ultimate rights to the
code belong to the purchaser.

As long as it's an outside contractor doing the coding, it's not
"work for hire," which is the only way that it could become the
property of the purchaser without an explicit granting of code
rights.

--
David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/
usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
May 14 '07 #11

P: n/a
"Albert D. Kallal" <Pl*******************@msn.comwrote in
news:B1O1i.181043$DE1.54130@pd7urf2no:
If you hired that developer, and started from scratch, and it was
your designs then you can certainly make a case that you own the
software. This is not different then any company that hires
someone to build them a table...it your table, and the designs are
also your.
Legally, it's considered *COMPLETELY* different.

The outside contractor holds the copyright on the code *because* she
wrote it, and can only transfer it to another entity by explicitly
stating that the rights are being transferred.

The only case in which the code would automatically be owned by the
purchaser would be if the programmer were hired as a full-time
employee, working full-time for the purchaser and only for the
purchaser, and with the purchaser paying taxes and benefits for the
programmer. In that scenario, it's definitely "work for hire" and
the purchaser has the full rights to the programmer's work product.

Absent that, and absent an agreement stating either that the
programming is "work for hire" or an agreement stating that the
purchaser will get the full code rights, the full rights to the code
BY DEFAULT belong to the programmer.

Period.

It doesn't make any difference if the code was written from scratch
for the particular client.

--
David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/
usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
May 14 '07 #12

P: n/a
OK, what everyone is saying regarding my not owning the program makes
sense.

Most of you also state that my programmer has no right to hold my data
in the program hostage, since I created the inventory. Any advise on
how I should handle this situation. As it stands, I am locked out of
my database due to a billing conflict which I do not see being
resolved anytime soon. If the programmer has no right to lock me out
of my database, how should I approach this from here?

Thanks.

On Mon, 14 May 2007 10:11:42 -0500, "David W. Fenton"
<XX*******@dfenton.com.invalidwrote:
>"Albert D. Kallal" <Pl*******************@msn.comwrote in
news:B1O1i.181043$DE1.54130@pd7urf2no:
>If you hired that developer, and started from scratch, and it was
your designs then you can certainly make a case that you own the
software. This is not different then any company that hires
someone to build them a table...it your table, and the designs are
also your.

Legally, it's considered *COMPLETELY* different.

The outside contractor holds the copyright on the code *because* she
wrote it, and can only transfer it to another entity by explicitly
stating that the rights are being transferred.

The only case in which the code would automatically be owned by the
purchaser would be if the programmer were hired as a full-time
employee, working full-time for the purchaser and only for the
purchaser, and with the purchaser paying taxes and benefits for the
programmer. In that scenario, it's definitely "work for hire" and
the purchaser has the full rights to the programmer's work product.

Absent that, and absent an agreement stating either that the
programming is "work for hire" or an agreement stating that the
purchaser will get the full code rights, the full rights to the code
BY DEFAULT belong to the programmer.

Period.

It doesn't make any difference if the code was written from scratch
for the particular client.
May 15 '07 #13

P: n/a
chaseexchange <ch***********@yahoooooo.comwrote in
news:uq********************************@4ax.com:
Most of you also state that my programmer has no right to hold my
data in the program hostage, since I created the inventory. Any
advise on how I should handle this situation. As it stands, I am
locked out of my database due to a billing conflict which I do not
see being resolved anytime soon. If the programmer has no right to
lock me out of my database, how should I approach this from here?
An intellectual property lawyer ought to be able to get your data
released with one of those $200 nasty letters they write threatening
further legal action. Of course, you need to be prepared to go
further with it if the idiot doesn't recognize that he's in trouble
for tying up your data.

--
David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/
usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
May 15 '07 #14

P: n/a
On Mon, 14 May 2007 19:53:14 -0500, "David W. Fenton"
<XX*******@dfenton.com.invalidwrote:

I'm not sure I agree. I'm thinking chaseexchange may not be locked out
of the data at all: perhaps this is a split database, with a .mde
front-end (this is the application part) and a .mdb back-end (this is
the database part). He should search for .mdb files on his computer,
then open them with MsAccess, and voila, there is the data.

That's why I suggested that if this is indeed the case, a competent
developer could write a provisional application in a few days so he
can limp along again.

By the way, not every company works with "licensed" software like most
of you do. For example the company I work for has a different
approach: once all the bills are paid, the source code is yours.
Comparing your custom solutions with MsOffice products is not really
apples to apples, I think (but do not want to start a flame war).

-Tom.
>chaseexchange <ch***********@yahoooooo.comwrote in
news:uq********************************@4ax.com :
>Most of you also state that my programmer has no right to hold my
data in the program hostage, since I created the inventory. Any
advise on how I should handle this situation. As it stands, I am
locked out of my database due to a billing conflict which I do not
see being resolved anytime soon. If the programmer has no right to
lock me out of my database, how should I approach this from here?

An intellectual property lawyer ought to be able to get your data
released with one of those $200 nasty letters they write threatening
further legal action. Of course, you need to be prepared to go
further with it if the idiot doesn't recognize that he's in trouble
for tying up your data.
May 15 '07 #15

P: n/a
Is your database requite you log on, and is it split into two parts?

Can you open the back end mdb direct?

(or, create a blank database, and import the data????).

Try a few of the above..it very possible your data is still open and
importable by you...
--
Albert D. Kallal (Access MVP)
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
pl*****************@msn.com
May 15 '07 #16

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