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OT How much knowledge is enough?

P: n/a
If one looks at job listings one will read the requirements of for it;
..Net, SQL, C#, etc.

How much skill, if years experience in the discipline isn't listed, is
needed. Could one simply get the C# program, read a book on it, do a
"Hello World" program, and feel comfortable on the topic and apply for
the job?

How much knowlecge is enough, if you've got a developer background, on a
new language or subject to go for it?
Aug 7 '06 #1
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37 Replies


P: n/a
Salad,

Even if you feel comfortable getting a job as a C# programmer after
writing a "Hello World" program, I doubt that you could fulfill the
employers expectations. Furthermore I would not waste either yours or
the prospective employers time by forwarding your CV/resume.

Good luck

Nick
salad wrote:
If one looks at job listings one will read the requirements of for it;
.Net, SQL, C#, etc.

How much skill, if years experience in the discipline isn't listed, is
needed. Could one simply get the C# program, read a book on it, do a
"Hello World" program, and feel comfortable on the topic and apply for
the job?

How much knowlecge is enough, if you've got a developer background, on a
new language or subject to go for it?
Aug 7 '06 #2

P: n/a
I wouldn't dare apply for a job unless I had 2 years under my belt.
Some people are so desperate they'll lie more on their resume than on
an online dating site. Me, I have too much pride. I have NEVER lied
on a resume, and never applied for a job that I didn't feel I could
"hit the ground running" on.

But you wouldn't be alone of you wrote that "Hello World" program and
then touted yourself as a "C# Expert". All I can tell you is that when
you're discovered (which you ALWAYS are), your employer is going to be
so pissed that if you used them on your next resume it'd be a complete
and total kiss of death.

salad wrote:
If one looks at job listings one will read the requirements of for it;
.Net, SQL, C#, etc.

How much skill, if years experience in the discipline isn't listed, is
needed. Could one simply get the C# program, read a book on it, do a
"Hello World" program, and feel comfortable on the topic and apply for
the job?

How much knowlecge is enough, if you've got a developer background, on a
new language or subject to go for it?
Aug 7 '06 #3

P: n/a
My sentiments exactly manning.

ManningFan wrote:
I wouldn't dare apply for a job unless I had 2 years under my belt.
Some people are so desperate they'll lie more on their resume than on
an online dating site. Me, I have too much pride. I have NEVER lied
on a resume, and never applied for a job that I didn't feel I could
"hit the ground running" on.

But you wouldn't be alone of you wrote that "Hello World" program and
then touted yourself as a "C# Expert". All I can tell you is that when
you're discovered (which you ALWAYS are), your employer is going to be
so pissed that if you used them on your next resume it'd be a complete
and total kiss of death.

salad wrote:
If one looks at job listings one will read the requirements of for it;
.Net, SQL, C#, etc.

How much skill, if years experience in the discipline isn't listed, is
needed. Could one simply get the C# program, read a book on it, do a
"Hello World" program, and feel comfortable on the topic and apply for
the job?

How much knowlecge is enough, if you've got a developer background, on a
new language or subject to go for it?
Aug 7 '06 #4

P: n/a
I also think that employers put down the specifications of the absolute
ideal employee, knowing full well it's a give and take. If they found
that employee, they probably wouldn't want to pay what his experience
dictated.

Now, I have, and will continue to apply, for positions if I am close to
the listed specs. I will put in either my cover letter or my resume
where I come up short, but how I have learned new technologies on the
way. I am a quick learner, and while I do not lie, I do stress how I
can increase my knowledge through books and on-the-job training.

If I was like ManningFan, I would not have exposed myself to new
technologies that I wasn't exposed to in my current position. I think
that is selling yourself short.

I have a bunch of VB.NET experience, and I have no problem submitting
my resume for a C# position, and then explaining how I feel I could
pick up the syntax already knowing the framework. I would not,
however, apply for a Java/J2EE position.
Chris

Nick 'The Database Guy' wrote:
My sentiments exactly manning.

ManningFan wrote:
I wouldn't dare apply for a job unless I had 2 years under my belt.
Some people are so desperate they'll lie more on their resume than on
an online dating site. Me, I have too much pride. I have NEVER lied
on a resume, and never applied for a job that I didn't feel I could
"hit the ground running" on.

But you wouldn't be alone of you wrote that "Hello World" program and
then touted yourself as a "C# Expert". All I can tell you is that when
you're discovered (which you ALWAYS are), your employer is going to be
so pissed that if you used them on your next resume it'd be a complete
and total kiss of death.

salad wrote:
If one looks at job listings one will read the requirements of for it;
.Net, SQL, C#, etc.
>
How much skill, if years experience in the discipline isn't listed, is
needed. Could one simply get the C# program, read a book on it, do a
"Hello World" program, and feel comfortable on the topic and apply for
the job?
>
How much knowlecge is enough, if you've got a developer background, on a
new language or subject to go for it?
Aug 7 '06 #5

P: n/a
"ManningFan" <ma********@gmail.comwrote in news:1154966497.583981.237870
@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com:
I wouldn't dare apply for a job unless I had 2 years under my belt.
Does experience matter? We have regular posters here who have been
"developing" for ten years whose work comprises solely of Googling, copying
and, oh yeah, protecting THEIR intellectual property. I shudder when they
speak of "my clients" and "my applications" and trumpet their grandiose
nicknames like Supreme Solutions, Dream Databases and Amazing Applications.
Basically they know zip about databases, zip about coding, zip about logic
and zip about language, but they are pretty good a whining and sycophancy.
The characteristic of hard work, the drive to be excellent, these are
foreign notions to them.

Give me a choice between one of these experienced charlatans and the
intelligent, hard working "Hello World" expert and I will take the latter,
every time. Potential is everything.

--
Lyle Fairfield
Aug 7 '06 #6

P: n/a
Actually, Chris, I was hired by a company recently who liked my Access
experience and was willing to teach me SQL Server along the way. Prior
to that I was hired as a VB programmer and shortly thereafter was asked
to also become the "CIO" (if you will) of a small company with 2 sister
offices, whereby I was responsible for running a LAN/WAN, server
maintenance, hardware/software issues and everything else, essentially
becoming a "one-man shop". So, sometimes you ARE allowed to be exposed
to new technologies. However, if you tell an employer you already know
them and you don't, they're not going to just laugh it off when they
discover the truth.

ch************@gmail.com wrote:
If I was like ManningFan, I would not have exposed myself to new
technologies that I wasn't exposed to in my current position. I think
that is selling yourself short.
Aug 7 '06 #7

P: n/a
salad wrote:
If one looks at job listings one will read the requirements of for it;
.Net, SQL, C#, etc.

How much skill, if years experience in the discipline isn't listed, is
needed. Could one simply get the C# program, read a book on it, do a
"Hello World" program, and feel comfortable on the topic and apply for
the job?

How much knowlecge is enough, if you've got a developer background, on a
new language or subject to go for it?
I'll be doing a part-time contract C# job soon.

I didn't lie to the employer about qualifications. I didn't even tell
the employer I knew any C# at all.

I have done paid programming in Microsoft Visual C++ 1.0 before. I'll
read several books about C# first. I'll do a bunch of tutorials. I'll
write some practice programs. I'll download and study the code from
other people's programs. I'll read thousands of posts to C#
newsgroups. All that's before I begin. Plus, I'll be doing the work
at less than half of my standard rate in recognition of the fact that
I'll be doing some on-the-job learning.

That's enough knowledge for me to jump in, but I like being a bit
over-prepared. I expect that the employer, a large software house with
a number of large contracts, will be completely satisfied with my work.
Programming success is more often about the process than about the
language. Of course, it's bad form to start a project then have to go
to the help file much. They wanted me to start three months ago if I
could. I told them I couldn't back out of my current commitments. If
their needs change I will still have several possibilities for learning
C# on-the-job.

How did I find them? It turns out that a couple of large software
houses, each about ten miles from where I live, advertise in Google
Sponsored Links. I called the president, set up an appointment, and
explained the situation. There was no résumé, no interview, just
talk about a win-win possibility.

James A. Fortune
CD********@FortuneJames.com

Aug 7 '06 #8

P: n/a
My first hire was a Chinese lady, only in this country for one year, who was
taught C programming in China. After reviewing her resume, asking some
questions, I hired her on the spot for Access development work (back in the
days of Access 2.0). I gave her my Access development books, and she read
them over the weekends and at nights, and started programming in two weeks.
Best hire ever .... and no direct experience.

What impressed me was her native intelligence, general developer background,
and extreme drive and determination. As an aside, she was a top ranked
table- tennis player on one of the major national teams, which required
extensive conditioning (6 mile runs per day) and discipline.

After three years with us, she left since her husband was relocating to
Chicago. She was hired but another (larger) company.

Direct experience with the language is important, but not as important as
many other factors.

Steven
"salad" <oi*@vinegar.comwrote in message
news:NF***************@newsread2.news.pas.earthlin k.net...
If one looks at job listings one will read the requirements of for it;
.Net, SQL, C#, etc.

How much skill, if years experience in the discipline isn't listed, is
needed. Could one simply get the C# program, read a book on it, do a
"Hello World" program, and feel comfortable on the topic and apply for the
job?

How much knowlecge is enough, if you've got a developer background, on a
new language or subject to go for it?


Aug 7 '06 #9

P: n/a
On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 15:06:21 GMT, salad <oi*@vinegar.comwrote:

..Net is a BIG topic. If you've only written a Hello Windows app so
far, you have A LOT of work ahead of you.
I recognize Steve's situation and I have done the same. However Access
programming is quite a limited subject compared to .Net programming. I
see this in our company where seasoned .Net programmers get stumped on
a fairly regular basis.
If I had to hire you for this job, you would have to have at least a
basic business-productivity app under your belt, and an enormous
demonstrated eagerness to become a great .Net programmer.

-Tom.
>If one looks at job listings one will read the requirements of for it;
.Net, SQL, C#, etc.

How much skill, if years experience in the discipline isn't listed, is
needed. Could one simply get the C# program, read a book on it, do a
"Hello World" program, and feel comfortable on the topic and apply for
the job?

How much knowlecge is enough, if you've got a developer background, on a
new language or subject to go for it?
Aug 8 '06 #10

P: n/a
I'm not disagreeing with you, as I would not lie on a resume. But, I
would apply to positions where I did not meet all of the stated
qualifications. I would not skip over it just because I have never
written in ADA. I would then tell the interviewer how, although I have
no professional experience, I would be confident in learning it.
Chris
ManningFan wrote:
Actually, Chris, I was hired by a company recently who liked my Access
experience and was willing to teach me SQL Server along the way. Prior
to that I was hired as a VB programmer and shortly thereafter was asked
to also become the "CIO" (if you will) of a small company with 2 sister
offices, whereby I was responsible for running a LAN/WAN, server
maintenance, hardware/software issues and everything else, essentially
becoming a "one-man shop". So, sometimes you ARE allowed to be exposed
to new technologies. However, if you tell an employer you already know
them and you don't, they're not going to just laugh it off when they
discover the truth.

ch************@gmail.com wrote:
If I was like ManningFan, I would not have exposed myself to new
technologies that I wasn't exposed to in my current position. I think
that is selling yourself short.
Aug 8 '06 #11

P: n/a
ch************@gmail.com wrote:
I'm not disagreeing with you, as I would not lie on a resume. But, I
would apply to positions where I did not meet all of the stated
qualifications. I would not skip over it just because I have never
written in ADA. I would then tell the interviewer how, although I have
no professional experience, I would be confident in learning it.
Chris
Have you done so in the past and if so, did you get the job?
>

ManningFan wrote:
>>Actually, Chris, I was hired by a company recently who liked my Access
experience and was willing to teach me SQL Server along the way. Prior
to that I was hired as a VB programmer and shortly thereafter was asked
to also become the "CIO" (if you will) of a small company with 2 sister
offices, whereby I was responsible for running a LAN/WAN, server
maintenance, hardware/software issues and everything else, essentially
becoming a "one-man shop". So, sometimes you ARE allowed to be exposed
to new technologies. However, if you tell an employer you already know
them and you don't, they're not going to just laugh it off when they
discover the truth.

ch************@gmail.com wrote:
>>>If I was like ManningFan, I would not have exposed myself to new
technologies that I wasn't exposed to in my current position. I think
that is selling yourself short.

Aug 9 '06 #12

P: n/a
salad wrote:
If one looks at job listings one will read the requirements of for it;
.Net, SQL, C#, etc.

How much skill, if years experience in the discipline isn't listed, is
needed. Could one simply get the C# program, read a book on it, do a
"Hello World" program, and feel comfortable on the topic and apply for
the job?

How much knowlecge is enough, if you've got a developer background, on a
new language or subject to go for it?

Interesting stuff from all that replied. Thanks.

I've read posts in the past like...upgrade you skills, get C#, and read
some books, and get the job, etc.

I was just wondering what you guys thought of it.
Aug 9 '06 #13

P: n/a
I did. My current position requisition stated 2 years ASP.NET. I have
not done much at all with ASP.NET, but I have with ASP & VB.NET. I was
upfront with them, and gave 3 examples of other technologies that I
learned (ColdFusion, Flash, ArcObjects) in a short time to meet a
project requirement.
>From putting together job reqs, it's apparent that it would be rare to
find the person who meets all requirements, especially after that req
has gone through HR. The hiring manager usually knows jack about
technology.

But, I've also sat in a interview for a GIS candidate. Why they had me
there, I have no idea, but the topic of Access not being a real
database came up. I inquired deeper, thinking that the interviewee
would respond with file based, single threaded, poor security model,
stripped down version of SQL (no triggers, weak stored procs, etc.), no
transaction logging, or poor scalability. You know, what we know to be
the limitations of Access that make us migrate to SQL Server. Instead,
he tried to blow smoke and say that he and a coworker friend tried to
do something and could not. I can't remember what that task was, but
Access could certainly do it. It was his lack of understanding and
attempt to mask that which led to my recommendation not to hire. I
don't think my opinion counted for much, but I gave it.

Also, keep in mind, most companies will have a candidate interview with
peers to ensure knowledge. The kind of questions that come up will not
be how to make a "Hello World" type application, but more in depth than
that. I usually present an actual problem that I'm having to see how
the candidate responds.
Chris

salad wrote:
ch************@gmail.com wrote:
I'm not disagreeing with you, as I would not lie on a resume. But, I
would apply to positions where I did not meet all of the stated
qualifications. I would not skip over it just because I have never
written in ADA. I would then tell the interviewer how, although I have
no professional experience, I would be confident in learning it.
Chris

Have you done so in the past and if so, did you get the job?


ManningFan wrote:
>Actually, Chris, I was hired by a company recently who liked my Access
experience and was willing to teach me SQL Server along the way. Prior
to that I was hired as a VB programmer and shortly thereafter was asked
to also become the "CIO" (if you will) of a small company with 2 sister
offices, whereby I was responsible for running a LAN/WAN, server
maintenance, hardware/software issues and everything else, essentially
becoming a "one-man shop". So, sometimes you ARE allowed to be exposed
to new technologies. However, if you tell an employer you already know
them and you don't, they're not going to just laugh it off when they
discover the truth.

ch************@gmail.com wrote:

If I was like ManningFan, I would not have exposed myself to new
technologies that I wasn't exposed to in my current position. I think
that is selling yourself short.
Aug 9 '06 #14

P: n/a
ch************@gmail.com wrote:
I did. My current position requisition stated 2 years ASP.NET. I have
not done much at all with ASP.NET, but I have with ASP & VB.NET. I was
upfront with them, and gave 3 examples of other technologies that I
learned (ColdFusion, Flash, ArcObjects) in a short time to meet a
project requirement.
>>From putting together job reqs, it's apparent that it would be rare to
find the person who meets all requirements, especially after that req
has gone through HR. The hiring manager usually knows jack about
technology.

But, I've also sat in a interview for a GIS candidate. Why they had me
there, I have no idea, but the topic of Access not being a real
database came up. I inquired deeper, thinking that the interviewee
would respond with file based, single threaded, poor security model,
stripped down version of SQL (no triggers, weak stored procs, etc.), no
transaction logging, or poor scalability. You know, what we know to be
the limitations of Access that make us migrate to SQL Server. Instead,
he tried to blow smoke and say that he and a coworker friend tried to
do something and could not. I can't remember what that task was, but
Access could certainly do it. It was his lack of understanding and
attempt to mask that which led to my recommendation not to hire. I
don't think my opinion counted for much, but I gave it.

Also, keep in mind, most companies will have a candidate interview with
peers to ensure knowledge. The kind of questions that come up will not
be how to make a "Hello World" type application, but more in depth than
that. I usually present an actual problem that I'm having to see how
the candidate responds.
Chris

I was talking to my friend about some of this stuff you just covered.
I'm forwarding your response on to him. Good stuff.
Aug 9 '06 #15

P: n/a
Gizza job !!

:)
Lyle Fairfield wrote:
"ManningFan" <ma********@gmail.comwrote in news:1154966497.583981.237870
@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com:
I wouldn't dare apply for a job unless I had 2 years under my belt.

Does experience matter? We have regular posters here who have been
"developing" for ten years whose work comprises solely of Googling, copying
and, oh yeah, protecting THEIR intellectual property. I shudder when they
speak of "my clients" and "my applications" and trumpet their grandiose
nicknames like Supreme Solutions, Dream Databases and Amazing Applications.
Basically they know zip about databases, zip about coding, zip about logic
and zip about language, but they are pretty good a whining and sycophancy.
The characteristic of hard work, the drive to be excellent, these are
foreign notions to them.

Give me a choice between one of these experienced charlatans and the
intelligent, hard working "Hello World" expert and I will take the latter,
every time. Potential is everything.

--
Lyle Fairfield
Aug 9 '06 #16

P: n/a
<ch************@gmail.comwrote
Also, keep in mind, most companies
will have a candidate interview with
peers to ensure knowledge. The kind
of questions that come up will not
be how to make a "Hello World" type
application, but more in depth than
that. I usually present an actual problem
that I'm having to see how the candidate
responds.
I have a colleague who occasionally hires subcontractors to do Access work.
He invariably includes as one of his "do-or-die" questions: "How do you
pass information to a Form that you open with DoCmd.OpenForm?" or "What is
OpenArgs?"

I don't know his "percentage score" today, but he used to eliminate well
over half the applicants on that question alone -- figured if they didn't
know that, they weren't "Access developers."

Larry
Aug 9 '06 #17

P: n/a
"Phil Latio" <ph********@lycos.co.ukwrote
Gizza job !!
I'm reasonably sure Lyle "gozza" plenty of work to keep him "bizzy" (and at
far greater reward) than if he "gozza job" for "sumbuddy elz."

Larry
Aug 9 '06 #18

P: n/a
"Larry Linson" <bo*****@localhost.notwrote in
news:3GtCg.42364$gU4.39878@trnddc07:
I have a colleague who occasionally hires subcontractors to do Access
work. He invariably includes as one of his "do-or-die" questions:
"How do you pass information to a Form that you open with
DoCmd.OpenForm?" or "What is OpenArgs?"
I haven't used OpenArgs for many years and I wouldn't suggest that it's the
way I would pass information to a Form that I open.

I would open the form with
Form_FormName.WhateverProperty = WhateverInformation
or if there were mucho stuff to pass I would set a reference to a new
instance of the form.

I guess this explains why I am unemployed.

--
Lyle Fairfield
Aug 10 '06 #19

P: n/a
Lyle Fairfield wrote:
"Larry Linson" <bo*****@localhost.notwrote in
news:3GtCg.42364$gU4.39878@trnddc07:
I have a colleague who occasionally hires subcontractors to do Access
work. He invariably includes as one of his "do-or-die" questions:
"How do you pass information to a Form that you open with
DoCmd.OpenForm?" or "What is OpenArgs?"

I haven't used OpenArgs for many years and I wouldn't suggest that it's the
way I would pass information to a Form that I open.

I would open the form with
Form_FormName.WhateverProperty = WhateverInformation
or if there were mucho stuff to pass I would set a reference to a new
instance of the form.

I guess this explains why I am unemployed.

--
Lyle Fairfield
I've forgotten how to create an option group. I use code because it
gives me more flexibility. I haven't created an option group in years.
I'd probably fail a similar shibboleth. But I'm still employed in
spite of such an egregious lacuna.

James A. Fortune
CD********@FortuneJames.com

Aug 10 '06 #20

P: n/a
CD********@FortuneJames.com wrote in
news:11**********************@m73g2000cwd.googlegr oups.com:
Lyle Fairfield wrote:
>"Larry Linson" <bo*****@localhost.notwrote in
news:3GtCg.42364$gU4.39878@trnddc07:
I have a colleague who occasionally hires subcontractors to do
Access work. He invariably includes as one of his "do-or-die"
questions: "How do you pass information to a Form that you open
with DoCmd.OpenForm?" or "What is OpenArgs?"

I haven't used OpenArgs for many years and I wouldn't suggest that
it's the way I would pass information to a Form that I open.

I would open the form with
Form_FormName.WhateverProperty = WhateverInformation
or if there were mucho stuff to pass I would set a reference to a new
instance of the form.

I guess this explains why I am unemployed.

--
Lyle Fairfield

I've forgotten how to create an option group. I use code because it
gives me more flexibility. I haven't created an option group in
years. I'd probably fail a similar shibboleth. But I'm still employed
in spite of such an egregious lacuna.
I have not forgotten how to create an option group. This does not mean that
I know how to create an option group.

--
Lyle Fairfield
Aug 10 '06 #21

P: n/a
"Larry Linson" <bo*****@localhost.notwrote in
news:3GtCg.42364$gU4.39878@trnddc07:
I have a colleague who occasionally hires subcontractors to do
Access work. He invariably includes as one of his "do-or-die"
questions: "How do you pass information to a Form that you open
with DoCmd.OpenForm?" or "What is OpenArgs?"

I don't know his "percentage score" today, but he used to
eliminate well over half the applicants on that question alone --
figured if they didn't know that, they weren't "Access
developers."
I would assume he'd accept any answer that worked? I would never use
OpenArg myself -- I'd tend to use a class module, or design the form
so that it didn't need to know anything about the context in which
it was being used.

--
David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/
usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
Aug 10 '06 #22

P: n/a
Lyle Fairfield <ly***********@aim.comwrote in
news:Xn*********************************@216.221.8 1.119:
"Larry Linson" <bo*****@localhost.notwrote in
news:3GtCg.42364$gU4.39878@trnddc07:
>I have a colleague who occasionally hires subcontractors to do
Access work. He invariably includes as one of his "do-or-die"
questions: "How do you pass information to a Form that you open
with DoCmd.OpenForm?" or "What is OpenArgs?"

I haven't used OpenArgs for many years and I wouldn't suggest that
it's the way I would pass information to a Form that I open.

I would open the form with
Form_FormName.WhateverProperty = WhateverInformation
or if there were mucho stuff to pass I would set a reference to a
new instance of the form.
That would work, I suppose, for forms not opened modally, but if the
form is modal, it would have to have the information set up for it
before it opens.

I tend to use class modules as data storage structures for this
purpose, but one could use any number of structures for the same
purpose. I hardly ever use OpenArgs for this purpose in my recent
work (i.e., in the last 5 years).
I guess this explains why I am unemployed.
It all depends on what the person asking the question expects as an
answer. I'd give OpenArgs as a possibility for the very simplest
circumstances, but would allow that if you need to pass more than
one parameter, you end up having to parse the string you've passed
in and then it becomes pretty ugly, so at that point I'd go to some
kind of independent data structure.

Of course, I also have a preference for passing *no* information at
all to dialog forms, since so many of them that I use need to be
used in multiple contexts, so that's the ideal, a form that doesn't
have to know anything at all about anything outside itself. But, of
course, that's not always possible.

But that's the kind of answer I'd given.

If it would get me tossed from the job, I wouldn't want to work for
the guy, because anyone who wouldn't consider that kind of answer to
be sufficiently detailed is not someone I'd want to work for.

--
David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/
usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
Aug 10 '06 #23

P: n/a
"David W. Fenton" <XX*******@dfenton.com.invalidwrote in
news:Xn**********************************@127.0.0. 1:
That would work, I suppose, for forms not opened modally, but if the
form is modal, it would have to have the information set up for it
before it opens.
This is not so:

The form code is:
****
Dim mBlah As String

Public Property Let Blah(ByVal vBlah As String)
mBlah = vBlah
End Property

Private Sub Command10_Click()
MsgBox mBlah
End Sub
****

The code to open the form is:

Public Sub OpenForm1()
With Form_form1
.Visible = True
.Blah = "Wrong"
End With
End Sub

That is it opens and when one clicks Command10 the message box

When the form is modal it displays:

---------------------------
Microsoft Office Access
---------------------------
True / Wrong
---------------------------
OK
---------------------------

****

When the form is not modal it displays:

---------------------------
Microsoft Office Access
---------------------------
False / Wrong
---------------------------
OK
---------------------------

****

It works exactly the same whether or not the form is modal.

--
Lyle Fairfield
Aug 10 '06 #24

P: n/a
Lyle Fairfield wrote:
I have not forgotten how to create an option group. This does not mean that
I know how to create an option group.

--
Lyle Fairfield
Good one. I guess how much knowledge is enough is in the eye of the
beholder unless it's skin-deep :-).

James A. Fortune
CD********@FortuneJames.com

Aug 10 '06 #25

P: n/a
lol larry
Larry Linson wrote:
<ch************@gmail.comwrote
Also, keep in mind, most companies
will have a candidate interview with
peers to ensure knowledge. The kind
of questions that come up will not
be how to make a "Hello World" type
application, but more in depth than
that. I usually present an actual problem
that I'm having to see how the candidate
responds.

I have a colleague who occasionally hires subcontractors to do Access work.
He invariably includes as one of his "do-or-die" questions: "How do you
pass information to a Form that you open with DoCmd.OpenForm?" or "What is
OpenArgs?"

I don't know his "percentage score" today, but he used to eliminate well
over half the applicants on that question alone -- figured if they didn't
know that, they weren't "Access developers."

Larry
Aug 10 '06 #26

P: n/a
"Lyle Fairfield" <ly***********@aim.comwrote
I guess this explains why I am unemployed.
Possibly, if you sought subcontract work from my colleague. <GRIN>

What is the advantage of creating and using a custom property to pass
information, versus using the supplied-with-the-product, builtin OpenArgs
property?

Larry
Aug 11 '06 #27

P: n/a
Larry Linson wrote:
"Lyle Fairfield" <ly***********@aim.comwrote
I guess this explains why I am unemployed.

Possibly, if you sought subcontract work from my colleague. <GRIN>

What is the advantage of creating and using a custom property to pass
information, versus using the supplied-with-the-product, builtin OpenArgs
property?
At one time I was considering offering a colleague of ours some
work/partnership on a project of mine, giving him USA rights,
responsiblity, as an alternative way to his making a living if he were
to stop doing something I (we) didn't like (Sort of an atheist doing
what Jesus would do). I was dissuaded by someone else involved; when I
see some of his exaggerations here, especially his attempts to belittle
you, I shudder at what he might have made of that.

As to using "my" method:

It's consistent with how we deal with all objects?
Its syntax is identical for both forms and subforms?
Its syntax is simpler, and of course there is no parsing the passed
argument string or type casting its various parts.
Of course, one is likely to use built in properties
Form_Form1.Caption = "Don't Screw it Up Again, Please!"
Form_Form2.AllowEditing=False

Aug 11 '06 #28

P: n/a
"Larry Linson" <bo*****@localhost.notwrote in
news:vCSCg.86094$Lh4.31865@trnddc02:
"Lyle Fairfield" <ly***********@aim.comwrote
I guess this explains why I am unemployed.

Possibly, if you sought subcontract work from my colleague. <GRIN>

What is the advantage of creating and using a custom property to
pass information, versus using the supplied-with-the-product,
builtin OpenArgs property?
Well, for one, it makes it much neater to pass multiple values.
Second, by setting the values themselves, you can trigger actions
based on those (just as you can in any class module custom
property).

But the drawback of that approach is that it's limited to forms not
opened modally. I don't have too many of those, so I use standalone
data structures for passing information.

--
David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/
usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
Aug 11 '06 #29

P: n/a
"David W. Fenton" <XX*******@dfenton.com.invalidwrote in
news:Xn**********************************@127.0.0. 1:
But the drawback of that approach is that it's limited to forms not
opened modally.
I think this is not so, as I previously explained.

--
Lyle Fairfield
Aug 11 '06 #30

P: n/a
On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 22:09:48 GMT, Lyle Fairfield <ly***********@aim.comwrote:
>"David W. Fenton" <XX*******@dfenton.com.invalidwrote in
news:Xn**********************************@127.0.0 .1:
>But the drawback of that approach is that it's limited to forms not
opened modally.

I think this is not so, as I previously explained.
I pass values to and set properties in modal forms all the time without any
problems.
Wayne Gillespie
Gosford NSW Australia
Aug 12 '06 #31

P: n/a
The Split statement, or one of the multitude of Split functions documented
in this newsgroup before the statement was included in VBA, has worked
nicely for me when using OpenArgs -- but I am usually passing just one item,
so even that is not often needed.

I don't have any particular gripe about defining and using properties, but
it does seem to me to entail extra work, most of the time.

Larry Linson
Microsoft Access MVP
"David W. Fenton" <XX*******@dfenton.com.invalidwrote in message
news:Xn**********************************@127.0.0. 1...
"Larry Linson" <bo*****@localhost.notwrote in
news:vCSCg.86094$Lh4.31865@trnddc02:
>"Lyle Fairfield" <ly***********@aim.comwrote
I guess this explains why I am unemployed.

Possibly, if you sought subcontract work from my colleague. <GRIN>

What is the advantage of creating and using a custom property to
pass information, versus using the supplied-with-the-product,
builtin OpenArgs property?

Well, for one, it makes it much neater to pass multiple values.
Second, by setting the values themselves, you can trigger actions
based on those (just as you can in any class module custom
property).

But the drawback of that approach is that it's limited to forms not
opened modally. I don't have too many of those, so I use standalone
data structures for passing information.

--
David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/
usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/

Aug 12 '06 #32

P: n/a
"Larry Linson" <bo*****@localhost.notwrote in
news:qsdDg.1867$5M.1464@trnddc02:
The Split statement, or one of the multitude of Split functions
documented in this newsgroup before the statement was included in
VBA, has worked nicely for me when using OpenArgs -- but I am
usually passing just one item, so even that is not often needed.
But there is no data type validation until you get into the form.
I don't have any particular gripe about defining and using
properties, but it does seem to me to entail extra work, most of
the time.
With custom properties, you can easily handle data type validation.

With Split() you'd have to put your data validation in the code that
parses the input.

You wouldn't write a function/sub that you pass a single string
argument and then parse it in the function/sub -- you'd use
individual parameters.

This is another reason why I prefer a standalone class module,
because then you'd get compile time data type checking.

On the other hand, if you could pass an array or a collection or a
custom type through OpenArgs, I wouldn't have a problem. With arrays
or collections, you'd still have to check the data types, but it
would be a very neat way to pass multiple values.

--
David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/
usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
Aug 12 '06 #33

P: n/a
Wayne Gillespie <be*****@NOhotmailSPAM.com.auwrote in
news:f7********************************@4ax.com:
On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 22:09:48 GMT, Lyle Fairfield
<ly***********@aim.comwrote:
>>"David W. Fenton" <XX*******@dfenton.com.invalidwrote in
news:Xn**********************************@127.0. 0.1:
>>But the drawback of that approach is that it's limited to forms
not opened modally.

I think this is not so, as I previously explained.

I pass values to and set properties in modal forms all the time
without any problems.
You pass values to modal forms opened with acDialog? As in this:

DoCmd.OpenForm "dlgMyDialog", , , , , acDialog
Forms!dlgMyDialog.MyProperty = "Foo"

How exactly does that work? Code pauses at the DoCmd.OpenForm line
and so the things you set won't be set when the user gets control of
the dialog.

--
David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/
usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
Aug 12 '06 #34

P: n/a
Lyle Fairfield <ly***********@aim.comwrote in
news:Xn*********************************@216.221.8 1.119:
"David W. Fenton" <XX*******@dfenton.com.invalidwrote in
news:Xn**********************************@127.0.0. 1:
>But the drawback of that approach is that it's limited to forms
not opened modally.

I think this is not so, as I previously explained.
How, exactly, do you usefully set values/properties of a form opened
by this code:

DoCmd.OpenForm "dlgMyDailog", , , , , acDialog

--
David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/
usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
Aug 12 '06 #35

P: n/a

David W. Fenton wrote:
How, exactly, do you usefully set values/properties of a form opened
by this code:

DoCmd.OpenForm "dlgMyDailog", , , , , acDialog
When you use this method you don't use that code:

Public Sub OpenForm1()
With Form_form1
.Modal = True
.Visible = True
.Blah = "Wrong"
End With
End Sub

The form is open.
The form is modal.
The form is visible.
The form's property("Blah") = "Wrong"

Larry is confused in thinking that this setting of a custom property
has something to do with the method. It does not. It was simply an
example of how one might pass information to a form when opening it by
using this method. One could have set or let the value of any writable
control, property of the form, or run any of its public procedures.

If Form1 has

Public Sub ShowaMessage()
MsgBox "Message"
End Sub

Then Form_Form1.ShowaMessage displays "Message" whether or not the form
is modal.

My recommendation is that the form's instance be created with a pointer
as we would deal with any object as in (air code)

Dim frm as Form_Form1
Set frm = New Form_Form1
frm.ShowaMessage
Set frm = Nothing.

What we have is something similar to a class. But with this "class"
there is always a default instance available to us by using Form_Form1.
And this "class" has it's own GUI (the visible form). We can use this
syntax to create multiple instances of our form>

Sub tempasdf()
Dim aFrm(0 To 9) As Form_form1
Dim z As Long
For z = 0 To 9
Set aFrm(z) = New Form_form1
aFrm(z).Caption = z
Next z
Erase aFrm
End Sub
.....

Erase aFrm ... presto ... all our instances are closed and their
pointers set to nothing.

I have written quickly here and off the top of my head. But you will
get the idea. Sometimes if Form_Open initial code makes a form
invisible then the .Visible Property will have to be set to true. I
think this is good standard practice. Of course, if you want to use a
normally visible form as invisible you have only to
From_Form1.Visible = False
provided it's initial code doesn't set it back to visible.

And as previously noted the form must have HasModule set to true or it
must have a module (the only way for Access 97 I believe).

Aug 12 '06 #36

P: n/a
On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 14:21:25 -0500, "David W. Fenton"
<XX*******@dfenton.com.invalidwrote:
>Wayne Gillespie <be*****@NOhotmailSPAM.com.auwrote in
news:f7********************************@4ax.com :
>On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 22:09:48 GMT, Lyle Fairfield
<ly***********@aim.comwrote:
>>>"David W. Fenton" <XX*******@dfenton.com.invalidwrote in
news:Xn**********************************@127.0 .0.1:

But the drawback of that approach is that it's limited to forms
not opened modally.

I think this is not so, as I previously explained.

I pass values to and set properties in modal forms all the time
without any problems.

You pass values to modal forms opened with acDialog? As in this:

DoCmd.OpenForm "dlgMyDialog", , , , , acDialog
Forms!dlgMyDialog.MyProperty = "Foo"

How exactly does that work? Code pauses at the DoCmd.OpenForm line
and so the things you set won't be set when the user gets control of
the dialog.
You did not mention opening the form acDialog. That is another kettle of fish.

Your statement above and in previous post in this thread is that - "it's limited
to forms not opened modally" is not correct.
Wayne Gillespie
Gosford NSW Australia
Aug 13 '06 #37

P: n/a
Wayne Gillespie <be*****@NOhotmailSPAM.com.auwrote in
news:hl********************************@4ax.com:
On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 14:21:25 -0500, "David W. Fenton"
<XX*******@dfenton.com.invalidwrote:
>>Wayne Gillespie <be*****@NOhotmailSPAM.com.auwrote in
news:f7********************************@4ax.co m:
>>On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 22:09:48 GMT, Lyle Fairfield
<ly***********@aim.comwrote:

"David W. Fenton" <XX*******@dfenton.com.invalidwrote in
news:Xn**********************************@127. 0.0.1:

But the drawback of that approach is that it's limited to
forms not opened modally.

I think this is not so, as I previously explained.

I pass values to and set properties in modal forms all the time
without any problems.

You pass values to modal forms opened with acDialog? As in this:

DoCmd.OpenForm "dlgMyDialog", , , , , acDialog
Forms!dlgMyDialog.MyProperty = "Foo"

How exactly does that work? Code pauses at the DoCmd.OpenForm line
and so the things you set won't be set when the user gets control
of the dialog.

You did not mention opening the form acDialog. That is another
kettle of fish.
How else do you open a form modally?
Your statement above and in previous post in this thread is that -
"it's limited to forms not opened modally" is not correct.
The modal flag does not open the form modally from code, i.e.,
causing the code to pause. Thus, I don't ever set the modal flag in
forms.

--
David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/
usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
Aug 14 '06 #38

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