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What's "required" to get work in Access these days?

I have over 10 years strong experience coding in VBA, developing
complex multi-user applications in MS Access (all versions), have
worked with security, replication, and whole bunch of other aspects of
desktop development. I've even developed web apps interfacing with both
Access and SQL Server. I've done some with PHP, but my goal is to work
with MS products more now. The exception to that would be I like
working with Crystal reports.

How is it possible that, with all of this experience, and having put in
dozens of applications to pertinent jobs, no HR manager can see my
value yet. I've never had such a hard time finding _something_. I'm not
sure if it's the lack of certification, or the lack of a degree that's
holding me back. I've been complimented on my resume and skill-set by
recruiters and prospective employers, but still nothing.

Can someone please tell me (and others looking for work they are
qualified for), what do we need to do to "reveal" our value to
prospective employers, or even short term clients? Is certification as
good as a degree, or maybe better in this field?

Thanks in advance for any educational, marketing or resume advice.

Feb 6 '06 #1
18 1801
On 6 Feb 2006 11:32:19 -0800, go*************@spamgourmet.com wrote:

One thing that might help is to ask those HR managers why they did not
select you. You may sometimes get a non-answer, but hopefully some of
them would be candid with you.
Another one is to ask a few friends to read your resume and give
feedback.

As a hiring manager myself I rate certifications over a college
degree, but not by much.

-Tom.
I have over 10 years strong experience coding in VBA, developing
complex multi-user applications in MS Access (all versions), have
worked with security, replication, and whole bunch of other aspects of
desktop development. I've even developed web apps interfacing with both
Access and SQL Server. I've done some with PHP, but my goal is to work
with MS products more now. The exception to that would be I like
working with Crystal reports.

How is it possible that, with all of this experience, and having put in
dozens of applications to pertinent jobs, no HR manager can see my
value yet. I've never had such a hard time finding _something_. I'm not
sure if it's the lack of certification, or the lack of a degree that's
holding me back. I've been complimented on my resume and skill-set by
recruiters and prospective employers, but still nothing.

Can someone please tell me (and others looking for work they are
qualified for), what do we need to do to "reveal" our value to
prospective employers, or even short term clients? Is certification as
good as a degree, or maybe better in this field?

Thanks in advance for any educational, marketing or resume advice.


Feb 7 '06 #2
Tom van Stiphout <no*************@cox.net> wrote in
news:f1********************************@4ax.com:
As a hiring manager myself I rate certifications over a college
degree, but not by much.


Would you rate expereince and recommendations over certifications? I
certainly would if *I* were hiring.

--
David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/
usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
Feb 7 '06 #3
The best thing, I believe, is quitting to use this platform.

The problem is that every boy with age above 5 can mess with it.

So these "skills" are easily found. I suggest you to switch to
something which looks more like a RDBMS.

-Pam

Feb 7 '06 #4
On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 21:22:01 -0600, "David W. Fenton"
<XX*******@dfenton.com.invalid> wrote:

Experience yes. Recommendations (I'm assuming you mean letters of
recommendation, or references) don't mean much to me.

-Tom.

Tom van Stiphout <no*************@cox.net> wrote in
news:f1********************************@4ax.com :
As a hiring manager myself I rate certifications over a college
degree, but not by much.


Would you rate expereince and recommendations over certifications? I
certainly would if *I* were hiring.


Feb 7 '06 #5
Ted
It is tough to put your intangibles down on paper. Most companies or HR
reps scan for specific items such as certifications and education and
overlook the experiences we have. I'm mostly self-taught on everything
I know. I started out working as a computer operator in 1986. I taught
myself four programming languages and was promoted to a programmer job.
I worked my way up until I was a regional manager for a large,
nationwide bank. After setting out on my own I was doing well until
9/11. Since then I've struggled to find work. I would love a full time
position with a company but I have only had three in-person interviews
out of the more than 3,000 jobs I've applied for.
Its really rough out there and I continue to scrap by with occasional
Access projects and fixing computers.

Feb 7 '06 #6
Everyone has great recommendations and references.
I haven't done much hiring lately, but for technical positions I liked
to see and discuss examples of work.
I remember a well-recommended rather beautiful well-dressed candidate
who, when I asked her why she had used in-line-styles rather than links
to CSS files in some wonderful html to which she had referred us (as
her work), stood up and said, "I'm outta here, assholes!" as she walked
out. We decided not to offer her employment but a couple of the younger
males had to be convinced.

I, who like women a lot and am open about it, am often surprised at how
much sexual attractiveness can influence hiring. For whatever reason I
have tried not to let it affect my decisions. But for certain, it can
be a factor with many. A female relative of mine says, "Sex is not the
most important thing, sex is the only thing". Going to an interview and
not managing ones sexuality appropriately might be an error.

If I were seeking Access employment I would consider hanging around
here in CDMA, choosing the most challenging questions asked and
responding with creative, comprehensive solutions, or just offering as
tips some of my best work. I would include some of the best of these,
or links to them, with my applications.

I don't want to discourage or disrespect anyone but I have found that
many persons who think themselves capable as Access persons are not.

Certification can be the key that opens doors. Ten years ago I showed a
secretary how to do a simple macro in Excel. She decided she liked that
and each time over the next few months that I visited her boss, she
stopped me and asked me a new question. After a while she decided to
become MS certified. In three years her salary quadrupled. Today she's
very advanced, and very successful. Why? Well she's smart; she works
hard; she's conscientious and she's personable and skillful in dealing
with people; but the certification gave her the opportunity to show
these things.

Feb 7 '06 #7
Tom van Stiphout <no*************@cox.net> wrote in
news:33********************************@4ax.com:
On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 21:22:01 -0600, "David W. Fenton"
<XX*******@dfenton.com.invalid> wrote:
Tom van Stiphout <no*************@cox.net> wrote in
news:f1********************************@4ax.co m:
As a hiring manager myself I rate certifications over a college
degree, but not by much.


Would you rate expereince and recommendations over certifications?
I certainly would if *I* were hiring.

Experience yes. Recommendations (I'm assuming you mean letters of
recommendation, or references) don't mean much to me.


Not letters. I mean calling up past employers and spending 15
minutes asking them about the projects the individual has done for
them.

This is how I get all my work with unknown clients -- they talk to
my past clients and get an earful of how great the work I did has
been. Strangely enough, I never remove the projects from my
References list that ended badly, but somehow, potential employers
never seem to call those.

One recent situation had the person making the calls planning to
make 4 calls, but she told me she quit after 2 since she didn't need
to hear more about how well-qualified I was.

To me, the proof of qualifications is in reports of success from
satisfied former employers.

--
David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/
usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
Feb 7 '06 #8
"Ted" <be*****@gmail.com> wrote in
news:11**********************@f14g2000cwb.googlegr oups.com:
It is tough to put your intangibles down on paper. Most companies
or HR reps scan for specific items such as certifications and
education and overlook the experiences we have.


That's the problem -- much of the hiring is done by HR types who
haven't a clue what the actual qualifications and requirements of
the job they are hiring for actually are.

Experience and references mean something only to the people you're
going to be actually working for. That means the IT folks.

I would suggest that perhaps you're applying for the wrong jobs.

Try going to some non-chain computer stores/VARs and asking them if
their clients ever need any help with Access (or anything else you
have qualifications in). Maybe they'll hire you out to their
clients. That's where a lot of my work comes from.

--
David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/
usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
Feb 7 '06 #9
go*************@spamgourmet.com wrote:
I have over 10 years strong experience coding in VBA, developing
complex multi-user applications in MS Access (all versions), have
worked with security, replication, and whole bunch of other aspects of
desktop development. I've even developed web apps interfacing with both
Access and SQL Server. I've done some with PHP, but my goal is to work
with MS products more now. The exception to that would be I like
working with Crystal reports.

How is it possible that, with all of this experience, and having put in
dozens of applications to pertinent jobs, no HR manager can see my
value yet. I've never had such a hard time finding _something_. I'm not
sure if it's the lack of certification, or the lack of a degree that's
holding me back. I've been complimented on my resume and skill-set by
recruiters and prospective employers, but still nothing.

Can someone please tell me (and others looking for work they are
qualified for), what do we need to do to "reveal" our value to
prospective employers, or even short term clients? Is certification as
good as a degree, or maybe better in this field?

Thanks in advance for any educational, marketing or resume advice.


When I see that someone is certified I wonder if the cost of obtaining
all that general knowledge was at the expense of specific knowledge
obtained by solving actual problems. Also, unless a company is
obligated by law to require resumes I don't ever submit one. The
reasoning is that a resume is a screener. I supply as much information
as necessary beyond what the referral source gave them, but if you want
me to fill out a resume you're telling me that you really haven't
decided to hire me. Education is great and the formalism of accredited
cources is useful but most college courses really exist to provide an
introduction. Some research and teaching assistants get close to
current knowledge if they're careful about choosing their topics and
how they go about their learning.

That said, the way things happened with me approaches bathos. Upon
obtaining a Master's degree in Mechanical Engineering with straight A's
I graduated in the midst of a decent recession. At that time companies
hiring engineers were demanding more experience than I had. I also
wanted to work on an automotive patent with a business parter and
didn't want to get into any legal entanglements. Besides all that I
had the impression that engineering jobs were being dumbed down. I
built and repaired computers on the side, did a little programming,
taught a few courses, passed out resistors, and most importantly,
bought candy for the bowl of the secretary of the Computer Science
department at Oakland U. I learned while working in Boston that it
really pays to treat secretaries well when I finished a rush job that
normally took three days in one day because all the secretaries put my
requests ahead of others to the absolute amazement of my boss. I had a
good reputation at the university so I let her know that if any
companies needed software help that I would do it or try to find
someone else who could do it.

Some of the leads were from individuals and some were from companies.
The individuals were very good at paying and were appreciative of the
work. Some of the companies were just trying to get a cheap deal with
student help and as a result some of them were very poor leads indeed.
Those experiences led me to adopt the referral system I use today.
With the extremely high cost of hiring the wrong person you can be
confident that not having a great referral source will likely keep you
from getting the job.

The job I got at the consumer research company came through one of the
university leads. A student who was working at a computer store saw me
showing another student how to use Access and told me about their
desire to produce a quote system for custom built computers. One of
the reasons they wanted such a system was that if customers saw the
quote in hard print they wouldn't be as likely to haggle with them over
the price.

While I was finishing up that application their outsourced network tech
saw that Access app and referred me to the diabetic supply company I
worked for afterwards ($100/hr was nice but not excessive just after
Y2K). Amazingly, the lead for the main company I work for was from a
pool league teammate. He knew I knew Access and had some code that
needed debugging. He was really a salesman and made much more money
doing that than almost any programmer makes so he set me up with some
contract work with them after I debugged his code successfully. My
goal has always been to have five to 10 customers at a time but lately
it has been two to three really good ones. So my advice is to get some
of your satisfied customers to refer you to other companies and get a
good hobby. For me, pool is great because it rewards wisdom and
planning.

James A. Fortune
CD********@FortuneJames.com

When deciding how to distribute venture capital I survey potential
customers of the business and analyze the results with standard ANOVA
techniques to see if the company has a reasonable chance to succeed.
-- J. Knapp

Feb 7 '06 #10
CD********@FortuneJames.com wrote:
cources is useful but most college courses really exist to provide an


And be sure to spell check that resume. Spelling mistakes look
unprofessional :-).

James A. Fortune
CD********@FortuneJames.com

After doing well enough on the William Lowell Putnam Math competition
to place Oakland U. in the top 60 universities and myself in the top
500 my final two years, I happened to end up rooming with two guys in
Boston that had higher scores. I took the GRE exam at MIT along with
the Harvard/MIT pool of graduates and placed in the top 5 percent in
Mathematics, English and Advanced Engineering with a perfect score in
math. I still make mistakes but I try to keep them to a minimum.

Feb 7 '06 #11
<pa***********@libero.it> wrote
The best thing, I believe, is quitting to use
this platform.

The problem is that every boy with age above
5 can mess with it.

So these "skills" are easily found. I suggest
you to switch to something which looks
more like a RDBMS.


Interesting view, Pamela, for someone who thought an Access newsgroup was a
good place to "invite" Access users to visit her new forum. Was it your
intention, even then, to try to discourage people from using Access? If so,
for shame; if not, why the sniping now?

Feb 7 '06 #12
pa***********@libero.it wrote in
news:11*********************@z14g2000cwz.googlegro ups.com:
The best thing, I believe, is quitting to use this platform.

The problem is that every boy with age above 5 can mess with it.

So these "skills" are easily found. I suggest you to switch to
something which looks more like a RDBMS.


Sandra (may I call you Sandra?), you are betraying now what we had
all suspected, that you know absolutely nothing about Access at all.

Go get a life.

Hang around somewhere that will be useful to you and those who also
hang out there.

Here, you're going to be ridiculed and ignored as long as you
continue in this vein.

--
David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/
usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
Feb 7 '06 #13
On 7 Feb 2006 06:35:41 -0800, "Lyle Fairfield" <ly***********@aim.com>
wrote:

I always ask for code samples and will ask detailed questions about
them. One time I thought I saw something familiar. A google search
later I found the entire block of code on CDMA. We give those
individuals the "soft landing".

-Tom.

Everyone has great recommendations and references.
I haven't done much hiring lately, but for technical positions I liked
to see and discuss examples of work.
I remember a well-recommended rather beautiful well-dressed candidate
who, when I asked her why she had used in-line-styles rather than links
to CSS files in some wonderful html to which she had referred us (as
her work), stood up and said, "I'm outta here, assholes!" as she walked
out. We decided not to offer her employment but a couple of the younger
males had to be convinced.

<clip>

Feb 8 '06 #14
On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 13:35:22 -0600, "David W. Fenton"
<XX*******@dfenton.com.invalid> wrote:

Yes, we do that too. Not as much to hear about technical
qualifications, but about soft skills (which most managers can more
easily answer).

-Tom.

Tom van Stiphout <no*************@cox.net> wrote in
news:33********************************@4ax.com :
On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 21:22:01 -0600, "David W. Fenton"
<XX*******@dfenton.com.invalid> wrote:
Tom van Stiphout <no*************@cox.net> wrote in
news:f1********************************@4ax.com :

As a hiring manager myself I rate certifications over a college
degree, but not by much.

Would you rate expereince and recommendations over certifications?
I certainly would if *I* were hiring.

Experience yes. Recommendations (I'm assuming you mean letters of
recommendation, or references) don't mean much to me.


Not letters. I mean calling up past employers and spending 15
minutes asking them about the projects the individual has done for
them.

This is how I get all my work with unknown clients -- they talk to
my past clients and get an earful of how great the work I did has
been. Strangely enough, I never remove the projects from my
References list that ended badly, but somehow, potential employers
never seem to call those.

One recent situation had the person making the calls planning to
make 4 calls, but she told me she quit after 2 since she didn't need
to hear more about how well-qualified I was.

To me, the proof of qualifications is in reports of success from
satisfied former employers.


Feb 8 '06 #15
Tom van Stiphout <no*************@cox.net> wrote in
news:o5********************************@4ax.com:
I always ask for code samples and will ask detailed questions
about them. One time I thought I saw something familiar. A google
search later I found the entire block of code on CDMA. We give
those individuals the "soft landing".


Why? I don't see why someone should be penalized for being able to
use someone else's code instead of writing it from scratch
themselves (unless that was one of the ground rules and they
misrepresented the code).

For myself, I would definitely want to hire Access programmers who
knew to use CDMA as a source of help and code, if they showed they
knew how to use it once they'd downloaded.

--
David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/
usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
Feb 8 '06 #16
Thanks for that statement, David. I hope more "professionals" and
hiring managers learn the wisdom you express. Looking further at
additional posts, I realize that certification will open the doors for
me, but I don't think Access certification is still available, is it?

I am thinking of going for SQL Server certification, but I would rather
be a developer than a DBA. Is that a smart approach, or should I stick
to the MCDBA? And will MCDBA do me any good?

Thanks again.

Feb 9 '06 #17
On Wed, 08 Feb 2006 10:59:37 -0600, "David W. Fenton"
<XX*******@dfenton.com.invalid> wrote:

Sorry, I should have added that he passed it off as his own.
Absolutely we have a rule never to reinvent the wheel. The first thing
new hires need to do is become familiar with our code libraries.

-Tom.

Tom van Stiphout <no*************@cox.net> wrote in
news:o5********************************@4ax.com :
I always ask for code samples and will ask detailed questions
about them. One time I thought I saw something familiar. A google
search later I found the entire block of code on CDMA. We give
those individuals the "soft landing".


Why? I don't see why someone should be penalized for being able to
use someone else's code instead of writing it from scratch
themselves (unless that was one of the ground rules and they
misrepresented the code).

For myself, I would definitely want to hire Access programmers who
knew to use CDMA as a source of help and code, if they showed they
knew how to use it once they'd downloaded.


Feb 9 '06 #18
go*************@spamgourmet.com wrote in
news:11*********************@g44g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com:
Thanks for that statement, David. I hope more "professionals" and
hiring managers learn the wisdom you express. Looking further at
additional posts, I realize that certification will open the doors
for me, but I don't think Access certification is still available,
is it?

I am thinking of going for SQL Server certification, but I would
rather be a developer than a DBA. Is that a smart approach, or
should I stick to the MCDBA? And will MCDBA do me any good?


I contemplated certifications at one point, but decided it wasn't
worth the money, unless you're looking to be hired by stupid people
who think that certifications *do* mean something. My experience is
that companies that put undue faith in certifications are likely to
be badly run and impossible to work for.

Some of the smartest people I've ever worked with have no
certifications.

Another downside of the MS certifications is that they teach only
the MS way of doing things, which is often idiosyncratic and not
well thought out in many cases. It's better, I think, to have
broader experience with non-Microsoft products if you're doing MS
certification so that you can tell where MS is steering you in the
wrong direction.

In general, you can pass the certification tests without knowing
anything of actual value in the real world.

--
David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/
usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
Feb 9 '06 #19

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