AccHelp future development - discussion please

[Nick Coe \(UK\)]

I'm seriously considering setting up the future development
of AccHelp as an open source project on sourceforge.

Why? I just don't have the time (for various personal and
professional reasons) to bring it along the way I'd like.
My master plan for world domination has always included a
big expansion of it's capabilities :-))

So I'm seeking some views on the pros and cons and also a
feel for who in the more experienced part of the access
community would be interested in having a bash at this.

I'm serious about this, not just farting about.

TIA

--
Nick Coe (UK)
Available - Will work for money :-)
http://www.alphacos.co.uk/ AccHelp + pAnimal
http://www.pjandcoe.co.uk/ Online Store

[Ken Ismert]

Nick,

Congrats on the idea. It is a concept I wish more Access developers
were comfortable with.

Open Source works through an entirely different social ethos than
proprietary software development. Most programmers of Microsoft
products are unfamiliar with this cooperative group method of working.

You can view Open Source as a kind of meritocracy, where individual
contributors compete for recognition of their efforts.

While it may seem free form and maybe a little anarchic from the
outside, most successful Open Source projects have a definite
structure, and unwritten rules of conduct.

Any Open Source project must have an owner (you) who is ultimately
responsible for final decisions on architecture and direction of the
project. The owner delegates coding responsibility for logical
subcomponents of the project to group leaders, who do the bulk of the
coding and maintenance for their modules. From there, other coders
typically play minor roles: finding and reporting bugs, submitting
fixes for bugs, submitting new features, doing documentation, etc.

But, work is not added willy-nilly to the project. It is tested and
evaluated by the appropriate group leader, who will incorporate it only
if it is found acceptable. The efforts of the group leaders are
moderated by the Owner.

The critical thing is, being a voluntary effort, credit for individual
work must be given and maintained. One of the worst things that can
happen is not crediting someone for their efforts, or mis-crediting
someone. Everyone must get their proper 'geek points' for there to be a
happy, productive Open Source project.

In a successful Open Source project, the owner takes on the roles of
moderator, diplomat, cheer leader and evangelist as the project grows
and gets more and more participants.

Ending on a practical note, this all gets enforced using the mechanisms
provided by CVS (Concurrent Versioning System) or some other code
control system. All coders must have some familiarity with this system
to participate.

I've run on way too long. I'll stop here.

Good luck.

-Ken

[XMVP]

"Ken Ismert" <ki*****@texassystems.com> wrote in message
news:11**********************@g44g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...

Open Source works through an entirely different social ethos than
proprietary software development. Most programmers of Microsoft
products are unfamiliar with this cooperative group method of working.

Also, most programmers of Microsoft products are:

1. Not communists

2. Not stupid

3. Not gay

[Ken Ismert]

Also, most programmers of Microsoft products are:
1. Not communists
2. Not stupid
3. Not gay

That is truly hilarious. My Happily Married, Republican Businessmen
friends using open source to make a living would also take mirth from
this.

Here's a thought: try contributing something useful to the
conversation, rather than try to fan a flame war.

-Ken

[Tim Marshall]

Ken Ismert wrote:

Here's a thought: try contributing something useful to the
conversation, rather than try to fan a flame war.

It's just Don and his homophobia. A bit of a normal fixture here, kind
of like city dwellers in some places getting used to overflowing
sewers... you get desensitized to it.
--
Tim http://www.ucs.mun.ca/~tmarshal/
^o<
/#) "Burp-beep, burp-beep, burp-beep?" - Quaker Jake
/^^ "Whatcha doin?" - Ditto "TIM-MAY!!" - Me

[Nick Coe \(UK\)]

Don't worry about Don,

Most of us would rather drive a rusty nail through our
privates than deal with that tosser.

--
Nick Coe (UK)
Available - Will work for money :-)
http://www.alphacos.co.uk/ AccHelp + pAnimal
http://www.pjandcoe.co.uk/ Online Store

In
news:11**********************@z14g2000cwz.googlegr oups.com,
Ken Ismert typed:

Also, most programmers of Microsoft products are:
1. Not communists
2. Not stupid
3. Not gay

That is truly hilarious. My Happily Married, Republican
Businessmen friends using open source to make a living
would
also take mirth from this.

Here's a thought: try contributing something useful to the
conversation, rather than try to fan a flame war.

-Ken

[rkc]

Nick Coe (UK) wrote:

Don't worry about Don,

Most of us would rather drive a rusty nail through our
privates than deal with that tosser.

I'll pass on both activities.

[Nick Coe \(UK\)]

LOL :-)
I'm with Billy Connelly on the tosser bit though. :-))

--
Nick Coe (UK)
Available - Will work for money :-)
http://www.alphacos.co.uk/ AccHelp + pAnimal
http://www.pjandcoe.co.uk/ Online Store

In news:gV******************@twister.nyroc.rr.com,
rkc typed:

Nick Coe (UK) wrote:

Don't worry about Don,

Most of us would rather drive a rusty nail through our
privates than deal with that tosser.

I'll pass on both activities.

[Ken Ismert]

Nick,

On further thought, your chances of making your concept a going open
source project would improve if you generalized it. As an Access only
tool, it would have limited appeal. But, if you broadened it so it is
usefull on other platforms, and wrote it in .NET, (with COM hooks for
Access), you chances of enlisting outside development help would
certainly increase.

If you wrote it in .NET, and could make it Mono compatible, you would
attract even more open sourcers.

-Ken
Cofounder, COFIB
(Communist Orgy For Idiot Boys)

[Albert D. Kallal]

"Ken Ismert" <ki*****@texassystems.com> wrote in message
news:11**********************@g44g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...

Great comments Ken.

Most programmers of Microsoft
products are unfamiliar with this cooperative group method of working.

Hum, I think one needs to clarify the above. I should add that the VAST
majority of ms-access downloads include full source code. One of the great
things about ms-access is the INCREDIBLE amount of examples, help and sample
codes with full open source included.

If you are saying that most ms-access developers don't use source code
control, then yes, I understand the above statement. However, when you
compare ms-access, and the INCREDIBLE amount of samples with full open code,
I bet ms-access ranks near the top in shared, and open code. There is an
INCREDIBLE AMOUNT of sites and downloads for ms-access. Further, the product
is well over 10 years old, and thus has had a great head start in terms of
web sites and free open code. Ms-access (unlike VB6) continues to grow and
have new users jump on board every day. So, we continue to get new web sites
with example (open) code for ms-access. So, I don't think the ms-access as
community is not cooperative, and is not sharing. The access community is
likely one of the BEST comminutes in terms of sharing things. And, the fact
that we are reading this newsgroup is proof of the contributors to this
community.

So, I do agree that as a rule, these shared and free open access
applications are NOT THE result of collaboration, but that does not mean
that the ms-access community does not share their code,and most ms-access
downloads do include the source code openly, and freely.

As for using source code control, VSS does work well with ms-access (take a
look at the screen shots here..and note the check marks, and "locks" for
code and forms that I have check-out. (anything with a check mark is what I
check out to work on).

http://www.members.shaw.ca/AlbertKallal/vss/index.htm

Now, as for having a group effort for this help system. ?

We could go about this in two ways:

1) have people use the code, and make suggestions, and then Nick
can incorporate those changes.

2) Implement a source code control system, and have people work
on the product in that fashion. I don't know if the project is large enough,
or needs this type of approach. (and, worse, most ms-access developers don't
use VSS, or some other source control system -- even more worse is we would
need to extend the VSS to the web).

It is always tough to get people on board, and as mentioned, coordination of
the contributors would not be easy. If it is just a few people, then no
problem...

The other issue(s) is what is the future direction of the product to be
(what are people asking for!). (my bets would be more tools on the
ms-access side to edit the help text...and ONLY need the help compiler for
the compiling...but NOT NEED to use help workshop, or whatever to edit the
results). And, something to generate help id's in ms-access would help.

To be fair, I think Nick has got a good idea in something that the community
can use, but figuring out a way to get the ms-access community to contribute
is going to be tough. This is going to be tough not because the ms-access
community is not generous, but just the way the community works.

Further, MOST of the ms-access community is not comprised of developers, but
a very large portion is users. Most software projects are able to get
contributors when the majority of users are themselves developers, and user
systems/tools tend to have a tough time getting developer support.

Anyway, certainly some food for thought....

--
Albert D. Kallal (Access MVP)
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
pl*****************@msn.com
http://www.members.shaw.ca/AlbertKallal

[Ken Ismert]

Albert:

Thanks for your input.

You're right: Access programmers can easily find lots of good sample
code. And I certainly have found the Access community (including this
forum) to be very helpful.

However, what I think Nick has recognized is a lack of good, free
software packages to help developers do their thing. Sort of a more
widely available alternative to some of the tools offered by the
(underused) Office Developer Edition.

I've used VSS in the past, and it works well for its intended purpose.
But, you identified its key shortcoming for an open source project:
"... we would need to extend the VSS to the web."

Or, use an alternative system, like CVS. CVS is the backbone of many an
open source project. While I am not experienced with CVS, I understand
that it allows web or email based collaboration on a code project,
while allowing the project owners to control what code gets included in
the final release.

As you mentioned, good collaboration on an open source project requires
just a few core people. If the project takes off, then it will attract
more contributors, who tend to take on more minor (but still critical)
roles, like testing, submitting bug reports and fixes, documentation,
etc.

Starting a successful open source Access project will be tough, not
just for the initial reasons outlined above, but also the technical
problem of how to deliver such a package to the user. I'm thinking
maybe .NET components using COM interop to mimic an Office Add-in?

While most of the Access community is users, there are always those
users with domain expertise (they know how a particular esoteric
business works) who manage to build a functional application in Access,
even though they are not developers. This audience (which Access covers
uniquely well) could benefit from free, easily available tools like
this.

If this could get off the ground, such tools could provide a stable,
independent alternative for Access developers, kind of like Mono and
DotNetNuke are doing for the .NET and ASP.NET communities.

Thanks again,

-Ken

[Nick Coe \(UK\)]

Thanks for your thoughts Ken. Much appreciated and plenty
of food for thought.

Like so many things it will hinge around the people involved
rather than the technology. SourceForge offers the tools I
think, but are enough people interested? I'd still have to
spend a fair amount of time managing the project but at
least it would be moving forwards and if it gained momentum
maybe more of the admin/managing could be delegated..

As for expanding out to address other development tools and
thus attract other developers, it's a tempting prospect but
I'm inclined to focus first on Access since that (and
Clarion) is what I am most familiar with at the moment.
That doesn't mean don't address other tools, it means if the
right skillsets are available _then_ go for it.

ATB
--
Nick Coe (UK)
Available - Will work for money :-)
http://www.alphacos.co.uk/ AccHelp + pAnimal
http://www.pjandcoe.co.uk/ Online Store

In
news:11**********************@g44g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com,
Ken Ismert typed:

Nick,

Congrats on the idea. It is a concept I wish more Access
developers were comfortable with.

Open Source works through an entirely different social
ethos
than proprietary software development. Most programmers of
Microsoft products are unfamiliar with this cooperative
group
method of working.

You can view Open Source as a kind of meritocracy, where
individual contributors compete for recognition of their
efforts.

While it may seem free form and maybe a little anarchic
from
the outside, most successful Open Source projects have a
definite structure, and unwritten rules of conduct.

Any Open Source project must have an owner (you) who is
ultimately responsible for final decisions on architecture
and
direction of the project. The owner delegates coding
responsibility for logical subcomponents of the project to
group leaders, who do the bulk of the coding and
maintenance
for their modules. From there, other coders typically play
minor roles: finding and reporting bugs, submitting fixes
for
bugs, submitting new features, doing documentation, etc.

But, work is not added willy-nilly to the project. It is
tested and evaluated by the appropriate group leader, who
will
incorporate it only if it is found acceptable. The efforts
of
the group leaders are moderated by the Owner.

The critical thing is, being a voluntary effort, credit
for
individual work must be given and maintained. One of the
worst
things that can happen is not crediting someone for their
efforts, or mis-crediting someone. Everyone must get their
proper 'geek points' for there to be a happy, productive
Open
Source project.

In a successful Open Source project, the owner takes on
the
roles of moderator, diplomat, cheer leader and evangelist
as
the project grows and gets more and more participants.

Ending on a practical note, this all gets enforced using
the
mechanisms provided by CVS (Concurrent Versioning System)
or
some other code control system. All coders must have some
familiarity with this system to participate.

I've run on way too long. I'll stop here.

Good luck.

-Ken

[Nick Coe \(UK\)]

Albert,

I think you've hit the nail on the head. Plus as I said in
my OP, for various reasons I'm short on time (aren't we all)
and am finally convinced that I cannot devote as much time
to AccHelp as I would like. It bugs the hell out of me
actually, I can think of so many things to do with it...
:-)

Anyway, thanks for your comments, let's hope some more
people join in the discussion. Meantime I'm going to see
how something like this would work on SourceForge and if CVS
is appropriate for Access work like VSS.

ATB
--
Nick Coe (UK)
Available - Will work for money :-)
http://www.alphacos.co.uk/ AccHelp + pAnimal
http://www.pjandcoe.co.uk/ Online Store

In news:xFBOe.290835$s54.166125@pd7tw2no,
Albert D. Kallal typed:

"Ken Ismert" <ki*****@texassystems.com> wrote in message
news:11**********************@g44g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...

Great comments Ken.

Most programmers of Microsoft
products are unfamiliar with this cooperative group
method of
working.

Hum, I think one needs to clarify the above. I should add
that
the VAST majority of ms-access downloads include full
source
code. One of the great things about ms-access is the
INCREDIBLE amount of examples, help and sample codes with
full
open source included.
If you are saying that most ms-access developers don't use
source code control, then yes, I understand the above
statement. However, when you compare ms-access, and the
INCREDIBLE amount of samples with full open code, I bet
ms-access ranks near the top in shared, and open code.
There
is an INCREDIBLE AMOUNT of sites and downloads for
ms-access.
Further, the product is well over 10 years old, and thus
has
had a great head start in terms of web sites and free open
code. Ms-access (unlike VB6) continues to grow and have
new
users jump on board every day. So, we continue to get new
web
sites with example (open) code for ms-access. So, I don't
think the ms-access as community is not cooperative, and
is
not sharing. The access community is likely one of the
BEST
comminutes in terms of sharing things. And, the fact that
we
are reading this newsgroup is proof of the contributors to
this community.
So, I do agree that as a rule, these shared and free open
access applications are NOT THE result of collaboration,
but
that does not mean that the ms-access community does not
share
their code,and most ms-access downloads do include the
source
code openly, and freely.
As for using source code control, VSS does work well with
ms-access (take a look at the screen shots here..and note
the
check marks, and "locks" for code and forms that I have
check-out. (anything with a check mark is what I check out
to
work on).
http://www.members.shaw.ca/AlbertKallal/vss/index.htm

Now, as for having a group effort for this help system. ?

We could go about this in two ways:

1) have people use the code, and make
suggestions,
and then Nick can incorporate those changes.

2) Implement a source code control system, and
have
people work on the product in that fashion. I don't know
if
the project is large enough, or needs this type of
approach.
(and, worse, most ms-access developers don't use VSS, or
some
other source control system -- even more worse is we would
need to extend the VSS to the web).
It is always tough to get people on board, and as
mentioned,
coordination of the contributors would not be easy. If it
is
just a few people, then no problem...

The other issue(s) is what is the future direction of the
product to be (what are people asking for!). (my bets
would
be more tools on the ms-access side to edit the help
text...and ONLY need the help compiler for the
compiling...but
NOT NEED to use help workshop, or whatever to edit the
results). And, something to generate help id's in
ms-access
would help.
To be fair, I think Nick has got a good idea in something
that
the community can use, but figuring out a way to get the
ms-access community to contribute is going to be tough.
This
is going to be tough not because the ms-access community
is
not generous, but just the way the community works.
Further, MOST of the ms-access community is not comprised
of
developers, but a very large portion is users. Most
software
projects are able to get contributors when the majority of
users are themselves developers, and user systems/tools
tend
to have a tough time getting developer support.
Anyway, certainly some food for thought....

[Ken Ismert]

Nick:

Here a link that compares free Source Code Control systems:

http://www.thefreecountry.com/progra...ncontrol.shtml

These have the requisite Web/WAN support required for an open source
effort. Many of these work on Windows.

hth

-Ken