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"Screen Scrape"

P: n/a
Does anyone know how to do a "screen scrape" to get data off a website and
enter it into an Access table?

Thanks for all help?

Steve
PC Datasheet
Nov 13 '05 #1
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73 Replies


P: n/a
Take a look at my November, 2003 Access Answers column in Pinnacle
Publication's Smart Access for one approach. You can download the article
and accompanying database at
http://members.rogers.com/douglas.j....artAccess.html

--
Doug Steele, Microsoft Access MVP
http://I.Am/DougSteele
(no e-mails, please!)

"PC Datasheet" <no****@nospam.spam> wrote in message
news:tq****************@newsread3.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
Does anyone know how to do a "screen scrape" to get data off a website and
enter it into an Access table?

Thanks for all help?

Steve
PC Datasheet

Nov 13 '05 #2

P: n/a


"PC Datasheet" <no****@nospam.spam> wrote in message
news:tq****************@newsread3.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
Does anyone know how to do a "screen scrape" to get data off a website and
enter it into an Access table?


What are you looking for exactly? Are you trying to download data from
database? If so, I use the Internet Transfer Control from VB to connect to
and download the page. Then I parse out the data for which I'm looking. The
trick is in how you formulate the URL to query the database and get what you
want.

If you're just looking to download an entire page, you can just save the
data and store it in a memo field. Again, using the Internet Transfer
Control.

I am in business to provide customers with a resource for help with
Microsoft Access, Excel and Word applications. I can help you with this. If
you would like my help, contact me at my email address (take
out -nospam4me).

Mike


Nov 13 '05 #3

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"Mike Turco" <mi*******@yahoo-no-spam-4-me.com> wrote
I am in business to provide customers with a resource for help with
Microsoft Access, Excel and Word applications. I can help you with this. If you would like my help, contact me at my email address (take
out -nospam4me).


LOL

Steve - now don't you regret asking for advice?

;)
Nov 13 '05 #4

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No, not at all!

If this is important enough for me to get this to work and I am not able to
get it myself, I now have a resource to go to for help. It's solely my
decision on whether I want to pay for the help but I have someone to go to
if I decide I want to pay.

Steve
"Darryl Kerkeslager" <Ke*********@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:FM********************@comcast.com...
"Mike Turco" <mi*******@yahoo-no-spam-4-me.com> wrote
I am in business to provide customers with a resource for help with
Microsoft Access, Excel and Word applications. I can help you with this.

If
you would like my help, contact me at my email address (take
out -nospam4me).


LOL

Steve - now don't you regret asking for advice?

;)

Nov 13 '05 #5

P: n/a
"PC Datasheet" wrote
If this is important enough for me to
get this to work and I am not able to
get it myself, I now have a resource
to go to for help. It's solely my
decision on whether I want to pay
for the help but I have someone to
go to if I decide I want to pay.


Ah, Steve, surely you could not have missed Mike's point -- his is almost a
word-for-word copy of what you use to flog your for-pay service in the
newsgroup. Have a nice day.
Nov 13 '05 #6

P: n/a
PC Datasheet wrote:
No, not at all!

If this is important enough for me to get this to work and I am not able to
get it myself, I now have a resource to go to for help. It's solely my
decision on whether I want to pay for the help but I have someone to go to
if I decide I want to pay.

Steve


Your reply reminds me of this technical article:

http://www.btjonline.com/stories/0404feature.shtml

Lyle

BTW, my spell checker chokes on Datasheet so I just click "Ignore".
.... hmmmmmmm ....
Nov 13 '05 #7

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what a hoot!

--
Duane Hookom
MS Access MVP
"Larry Linson" <bo*****@localhost.not> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
"PC Datasheet" wrote
If this is important enough for me to
get this to work and I am not able to
get it myself, I now have a resource
to go to for help. It's solely my
decision on whether I want to pay
for the help but I have someone to
go to if I decide I want to pay.


Ah, Steve, surely you could not have missed Mike's point -- his is almost
a
word-for-word copy of what you use to flog your for-pay service in the
newsgroup. Have a nice day.

Nov 13 '05 #8

P: n/a

Ah, Steve, surely you could not have missed Mike's point -- his is almost
a
word-for-word copy of what you use to flog your for-pay service in the
newsgroup. Have a nice day.


There are two kinds of people on this group: available consultants and
potential customers. I would love to come to this group and say, "HEY
EVERYONE I CAN FIX IT HIRE ME!!!!". I just think that's inappropriate for
this group.

I've wanted, for some time, to add a sig line to my posts and use these
groups more frequently in hopes of getting the word out, but I don't. I'm
sure others feel the same way. Usenet, especially these tech groups, is not
a place where its acceptable to hock your wares.

Where to advertise? How to get the word out on what you do? That's off-topic
to this group. To answer that question I would suggest people try the
newsgroup misc.business.marketing.moderated, misc.business.consulting or
alt.computer.consultants.moderated. (FWIW, I moderate two of those three
groups.)

IMHO.

Mike

Nov 13 '05 #9

P: n/a
>"PC Datasheet" <no****@nospam.spam> wrote in message
Does anyone know how to do a "screen scrape" to get data off a website and
enter it into an Access table?

Mike Turco wrote:
[snip helpful part]
I am in business to provide customers with a resource for help with
Microsoft Access, Excel and Word applications. I can help you with this. If
you would like my help, contact me at my email address (take
out -nospam4me).

Marvelous!

What goes around, comes around, eh Steve ;-)

--
Marsh
MVP [MS Access]
Nov 13 '05 #10

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I'd say it was OK to add a corporate website to your sig (e.g. Dirk) If I'm
interested then I can look further, if not, then I don't.

....and I'm neither of your two kinds by the way.... but I know what you
mean.
"Mike Turco" <mi*******@yahoo-no-spam-4-me.com> wrote in message
news:4tBId.13327$nt.10704@fed1read06...

Ah, Steve, surely you could not have missed Mike's point -- his is almost a
word-for-word copy of what you use to flog your for-pay service in the
newsgroup. Have a nice day.

There are two kinds of people on this group: available consultants and
potential customers. I would love to come to this group and say, "HEY
EVERYONE I CAN FIX IT HIRE ME!!!!". I just think that's inappropriate for
this group.

I've wanted, for some time, to add a sig line to my posts and use these
groups more frequently in hopes of getting the word out, but I don't. I'm
sure others feel the same way. Usenet, especially these tech groups, is

not a place where its acceptable to hock your wares.

Where to advertise? How to get the word out on what you do? That's off-topic to this group. To answer that question I would suggest people try the
newsgroup misc.business.marketing.moderated, misc.business.consulting or
alt.computer.consultants.moderated. (FWIW, I moderate two of those three
groups.)

IMHO.

Mike

Nov 13 '05 #11

P: n/a
There are 40 unanswered posts from this past week prior to my post. Why
haven't you tried to help these folks? There is no reward in heaven for
criticizing me but much reward to gain by helping these folks.

Steve
"PC Datasheet" <no****@nospam.spam> wrote in message
news:tq****************@newsread3.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
Does anyone know how to do a "screen scrape" to get data off a website and
enter it into an Access table?

Thanks for all help?

Steve
PC Datasheet

Nov 13 '05 #12

P: n/a
"PC Datasheet" <no****@nospam.spam> wrote
There are 40 unanswered posts from this past week prior to my post. Why
haven't you tried to help these folks? There is no reward in heaven for
criticizing me but much reward to gain by helping these folks.

Steve


Steve,

Please re-read my post. While I admittedly was enjoying a laugh (a very
good one) at your expense, I was not in any way being critical. I would
assume that in the many, many answers you have given in this NG, you have
probably answered some of mine (even if someone else actually asked the
question).

I do appreciate your time. I know how valuable time is.

But you must admit, he pegged you.

Darryl Kerkeslager
Nov 13 '05 #13

P: n/a
PC Datasheet wrote:
There are 40 unanswered posts from this past week prior to my post. Why
haven't you tried to help these folks? There is no reward in heaven for
criticizing me but much reward to gain by helping these folks.


If you answer enough questions God will let you sit around in a pink
robe on a white cloud with a couple of redheads for eternity, or until
one of them moans, which ever comes first.
Nov 13 '05 #14

P: n/a
And what are you going to do since you only make smart remarks and don't
answer many posts?
"Lyle Fairfield" <ly******@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:Ss******************@read2.cgocable.net...
PC Datasheet wrote:
There are 40 unanswered posts from this past week prior to my post. Why
haven't you tried to help these folks? There is no reward in heaven for
criticizing me but much reward to gain by helping these folks.


If you answer enough questions God will let you sit around in a pink
robe on a white cloud with a couple of redheads for eternity, or until
one of them moans, which ever comes first.

Nov 13 '05 #15

P: n/a
"Mike Turco" wrote
There are two kinds of people on
this group: available consultants and
potential customers. I would love to
come to this group and say, "HEY
EVERYONE I CAN FIX IT HIRE
ME!!!!". I just think that's inappro-
priate for this group.
That is in accord with USENET guidelines and the FAQ for this newsgroup.
I've wanted, for some time, to add a
sig line to my posts and use these
groups more frequently in hopes of
getting the word out, but I don't. I'm
sure others feel the same way. Usenet,
especially these tech groups, is not
a place where its acceptable to hock
your wares.
The people in this newsgroup, except some who'd gripe about anything and
troll when they aren't griping, have never objected to posters including a
moderate amount of contact information in a SIG (there's no absolute limit,
but 4 lines doesn't seem to be objectionable in most newsgroups).
Where to advertise? How to get the
word out on what you do? That's off-
topic to this group. To answer that
question I would suggest people try the
newsgroup misc.business.marketing.
moderated, misc.business.consulting or
alt.computer.consultants.moderated.
(FWIW, I moderate two of those
three groups.)


Nor, have the people here (same exceptions) objected to a reference to a
commercial product when it is a specific and valid answer to a legitimate
question. Because so many people here do contract work for pay, and because
that isn't a specific answer to a question, many "non-gripers" have
complained about Steve's "I can help you for pay" responses.

Larry Linson
Microsoft Access MVP

Nov 13 '05 #16

P: n/a


"Larry Linson" <bo*****@localhost.not> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
"Mike Turco" wrote
> There are two kinds of people on
> this group: available consultants and
> potential customers. I would love to
> come to this group and say, "HEY
> EVERYONE I CAN FIX IT HIRE
> ME!!!!". I just think that's inappro-
> priate for this group.
That is in accord with USENET guidelines and the FAQ for this newsgroup.
> I've wanted, for some time, to add a
> sig line to my posts and use these
> groups more frequently in hopes of
> getting the word out, but I don't. I'm
> sure others feel the same way. Usenet,
> especially these tech groups, is not
> a place where its acceptable to hock
> your wares.


The people in this newsgroup, except some who'd gripe about anything and
troll when they aren't griping, have never objected to posters including a
moderate amount of contact information in a SIG (there's no absolute

limit, but 4 lines doesn't seem to be objectionable in most newsgroups).
> Where to advertise? How to get the
> word out on what you do? That's off-
> topic to this group. To answer that
> question I would suggest people try the
> newsgroup misc.business.marketing.
> moderated, misc.business.consulting or
> alt.computer.consultants.moderated.
> (FWIW, I moderate two of those
> three groups.)
Nor, have the people here (same exceptions) objected to a reference to a
commercial product when it is a specific and valid answer to a legitimate
question. Because so many people here do contract work for pay, and

because that isn't a specific answer to a question, many "non-gripers" have
complained about Steve's "I can help you for pay" responses.

Larry Linson
Microsoft Access MVP


On the money! On all counts.

Randy Harris
tech at promail dot com
Nov 13 '05 #17

P: n/a
rkc
PC Datasheet wrote:
There are 40 unanswered posts from this past week prior to my post. Why
haven't you tried to help these folks? There is no reward in heaven for
criticizing me but much reward to gain by helping these folks.

Steve


If Douglas J. Steele's reply to your screen scraping post wasn't
enough to get you going I will happily post or send you a class
that 'scrapes' exchange rates from an MSN Money website.

I will also make fun of your help for pay posts whenever the spirit
hits me.

A well done goes out to Mike Turco.

Lyle is my hero.
Nov 13 '05 #18

P: n/a
PC Datasheet wrote:
Does anyone know how to do a "screen scrape" to get data off a website and
enter it into an Access table?

Thanks for all help?

Steve
PC Datasheet

You could just contact that server with your own HTTP request. Not
terribly difficult to do and then you can decode the response in
code.

The WinInet library has a bunch of API calls to do just this.

--
'---------------
'John Mishefske
'---------------
Nov 13 '05 #19

P: n/a
PC Datasheet wrote:
And what are you going to do since you only make smart remarks and don't
answer many posts?


Ah, but he doesn't top-post, top posters will go straight downstairs :-)

--
This sig left intentionally blank
Nov 13 '05 #20

P: n/a
What's top posting?
David

On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 11:05:48 +0000, Trevor Best <no****@besty.org.uk>
wrote:
PC Datasheet wrote:
And what are you going to do since you only make smart remarks and don't
answer many posts?


Ah, but he doesn't top-post, top posters will go straight downstairs :-)

--
This sig left intentionally blank


Nov 13 '05 #21

P: n/a
David Schofield wrote:
What's top posting?
David


:-)

A: Top-Posting
Q: What's the most annoying thing on usenet?

--
This sig left intentionally blank
Nov 13 '05 #22

P: n/a
I would appreciate you posting the class here. That way if anyone else is
interested in "scraping" they can see what you do in the class.

BTW, you say Lyle is your hero. The stated purpose of this newsgroup is to
provide a forum for anyone to post Access related questions and hopefully
get answers to the questions. I posted a legitimate question to this
newsgroup. Lyle has two responses in this thread and neither has any
semblance of an answer to my question. Take a look at John Mishefske's
response following yours. John provided a legitimate answer to my question
and further acted as a true gentleman and avoided interjecting any
irrelevant opinion. John should be your hero! So holding Lyle up to be a
'hero' is supporting someone whose responses in the thread are contrary to
the stated purpose of this newsgroup. So you shouldn't be criticizing me.
Let him who is without sin cast the first stone!

Steve

"rkc" <rk*@rochester.yabba.dabba.do.rr.bomb> wrote in message
news:8H********************@twister.nyroc.rr.com.. .
PC Datasheet wrote:
There are 40 unanswered posts from this past week prior to my post. Why
haven't you tried to help these folks? There is no reward in heaven for
criticizing me but much reward to gain by helping these folks.

Steve


If Douglas J. Steele's reply to your screen scraping post wasn't
enough to get you going I will happily post or send you a class
that 'scrapes' exchange rates from an MSN Money website.

I will also make fun of your help for pay posts whenever the spirit
hits me.

A well done goes out to Mike Turco.

Lyle is my hero.

Nov 13 '05 #23

P: n/a
"PC Datasheet" <no****@nospam.spam> wrote in message
news:9A*****************@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
And what are you going to do since you only make smart remarks and don't
answer many posts?


[Excess newsgroups trimmed]

A sense of humor will go a long way toward getting one there. Lyle has
already answered more than his share, and now gets his reward in redheads.

You've been around here long enough to know that, but perhaps not long
enough to *know* that.
--
Arvin Meyer
Nov 13 '05 #24

P: n/a
You figured it out and illustrated it correctly. <GRIN>

"David Schofield" <d.***************@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:41f3978d.665214527@localhost...
What's top posting?
David

On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 11:05:48 +0000, Trevor Best <no****@besty.org.uk>
wrote:
PC Datasheet wrote:
And what are you going to do since you only make smart remarks and don't answer many posts?


Ah, but he doesn't top-post, top posters will go straight downstairs :-)

--
This sig left intentionally blank

Nov 13 '05 #25

P: n/a
rkc
PC Datasheet wrote:
I would appreciate you posting the class here. That way if anyone else is
interested in "scraping" they can see what you do in the class.


<snip lecture>

Posted at
http://www8.brinkster.com/rkc/ScreenScrape.txt

You will have to go to the MSN Money site and view the page source
for the parsing code to make any sense.

Nov 13 '05 #26

P: n/a
A. People who complain about top/bottom posting instead of learning how to
scroll <g>.
--
Terry Kreft
MVP Microsoft Access
"Trevor Best" <no****@besty.org.uk> wrote in message
news:41***********************@news.zen.co.uk...
David Schofield wrote:
What's top posting?
David


:-)

A: Top-Posting
Q: What's the most annoying thing on usenet?

--
This sig left intentionally blank

Nov 13 '05 #27

P: n/a
That reminds me of a consumer watchdog show not so long ago, which was
investigating the bottled water market in the UK.

It started with the presenter going into the street with a jug of tap water
and some cups and offering to sell water to passers-by in the street (he
made it very clear that this was tap water), nobody would take him up on his
offer.

It then showed him consulting with PR experts and eventually producing small
bottles of the same water with nice labels on it; he then went back into the
street to sell the water, again he made it very clear that it was just
bottled tap water and people were lapping it up <g> at 50p a bottle (approx
5000% profit). As they say in Yorkshire "Nowt so strange as folk".
--
Terry Kreft
MVP Microsoft Access
"Lyle Fairfield" <ly******@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:q0******************@read2.cgocable.net...
PC Datasheet wrote:
No, not at all!

If this is important enough for me to get this to work and I am not able to get it myself, I now have a resource to go to for help. It's solely my
decision on whether I want to pay for the help but I have someone to go to if I decide I want to pay.

Steve


Your reply reminds me of this technical article:

http://www.btjonline.com/stories/0404feature.shtml

Lyle

BTW, my spell checker chokes on Datasheet so I just click "Ignore".
... hmmmmmmm ....

Nov 13 '05 #28

P: n/a
Lyn
This may be straying from the original topic (but then who hasn't in this
thread :-), but I have a serious question. Like David, I didn't understand
the reference to "top posting". Nor Trevor's response -- at first (but I
got it eventually :-).

I have noted in this and other NGs that some people respond above the
previous post(s), some below. And of course with long and complex posts, it
makes sense to embed parts of the response next to the relevant parts of the
previous post. But apart from that the comments in this thread suggest that
there is a preference among the gurus for responses at the bottom of the
previous posts rather than on top. Is my understanding of this correct? Is
there general agreement on this?

I must admit that I have been guilty (if that is the word) of "top posting".
It has always seemed to me that when reading a thread you don't want to have
to wade through all the previous postings over and over again to get to the
gem of new information at the bottom. But maybe I have been wrong about
this.

Of course another issue is: how long do you keep adding to all the previous
posts in a long thread -- at what point do you snip off the older posts to
keep the new post length manageable? Is there (or should there be) a rule
that you keep the last "n" posts and progressively delete older posts than
that? Or should this be done on a case-by-case basis in order to ensure
that the context of the subject matter remains clear, without requiring
readers to have to dig into old posts to make sense of the latest post?

In other words, is there an agreed netiquette on replying to posts in regard
to top/bottom posting and snipping early posts to avoid bloat? If so, what
is it?

--
Cheers,
Lyn.

"Terry Kreft" <te*********@mps.co.uk> wrote in message
news:SI********************@karoo.co.uk...
A. People who complain about top/bottom posting instead of learning how to
scroll <g>.
--
Terry Kreft
MVP Microsoft Access
"Trevor Best" <no****@besty.org.uk> wrote in message
news:41***********************@news.zen.co.uk...
David Schofield wrote:
> What's top posting?
> David


:-)

A: Top-Posting
Q: What's the most annoying thing on usenet?

--
This sig left intentionally blank


Nov 13 '05 #29

P: n/a
Lyn,
People can get quite vehement about top and bottom posting.

Essentially theadvantage of consistent bottom posting is that you can read
through the posts in sequence.

The advantage of top posting is that when you use a preview pane the
previewed content tends to be the last post.

On the subject of trimming, you should really trim previous posts to what is
relevant to your post, in the past people could get quite nasty about not
trimming posts, this has become less of an issue though since the advent of
fast internet links and large storage space.

Personally I'm a rabid top-poster and trim when I remember to do so,
speaking of which

--
Terry Kreft
MVP Microsoft Access
"Lyn" <lh******@ihug.com.au> wrote in message
news:ct**********@lust.ihug.co.nz...
This may be straying from the original topic (but then who hasn't in this
thread :-), but I have a serious question. Like David, I didn't understand the reference to "top posting". Nor Trevor's response -- at first (but I
got it eventually :-).

I have noted in this and other NGs that some people respond above the
previous post(s), some below. And of course with long and complex posts, it
<SNIP> Is there general agreement on this?
<SNIP> Of course another issue is: how long do you keep adding to all the previous posts in a long thread -- <SNIP> In other words, is there an agreed netiquette on replying to posts in regard to top/bottom posting and snipping early posts to avoid bloat? If so, what is it?

--
Cheers,
Lyn.

"Terry Kreft" <te*********@mps.co.uk> wrote in message
news:SI********************@karoo.co.uk...
A. People who complain about top/bottom posting instead of learning how to scroll <g>.
--
Terry Kreft
MVP Microsoft Access
"Trevor Best" <no****@besty.org.uk> wrote in message
news:41***********************@news.zen.co.uk...
David Schofield wrote:
> What's top posting?
> David

:-)

A: Top-Posting
Q: What's the most annoying thing on usenet?

--
This sig left intentionally blank



Nov 13 '05 #30

P: n/a
On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 23:09:33 +1100, "Lyn" <lh******@ihug.com.au>
wrote:
In other words, is there an agreed netiquette on replying to posts in regard
to top/bottom posting and snipping early posts to avoid bloat? If so, what
is it?


This argument has been going on as long as Usenet has existed. It
sometimes attains the intensity of a religious war. Most old Usenet
hands prefer (with varying degrees of vehemence) bottom posting in
order to maintain chronological order within a message; many other
folks prefer top posting, for one because many newsreaders (including
the widely used Outlook Express) default to set the cursor there, and
for the reason you cite: being able to see the reply without scrolling
down.

There's no answer that will satisfy everyone, and there are vehement
opinions both ways.

Personally, I try to trim and either bottom post or interpost, but
depending on the situation, I'll sometimes just do a quick toppost.
I'm therefore despised and denigrated by the fanatics in both camps.
<g>
John W. Vinson[MVP]
Nov 13 '05 #31

P: n/a
rkc
Terry Kreft wrote:
People can get quite vehement about top and bottom posting.


What about eliminating newsgroups from a multi-posted article
when replying?
Nov 13 '05 #32

P: n/a
rkc wrote:
Terry Kreft wrote:
People can get quite vehement about top and bottom posting.


What about eliminating newsgroups from a multi-posted article
when replying?


Crossposting is only frowned upon when the number of groups is excessive.
As this one only has four groups I would say it's fine (albeit at the high
end of fine).

--
I don't check the Email account attached
to this message. Send instead to...
RBrandt at Hunter dot com
Nov 13 '05 #33

P: n/a
rkc
Rick Brandt wrote:
rkc wrote:
Terry Kreft wrote:

People can get quite vehement about top and bottom posting.


What about eliminating newsgroups from a multi-posted article
when replying?

Crossposting is only frowned upon when the number of groups is excessive.
As this one only has four groups I would say it's fine (albeit at the high
end of fine).


O.K. I asked that wrong. Is it bad form to remove newsgroups from a
cross-posted article when replying to it. I tend to remove the
groups I don't read.


Nov 13 '05 #34

P: n/a
O.K. I asked that wrong. Is it bad form to remove newsgroups from a
cross-posted article when replying to it. I tend to remove the
groups I don't read.


Remove any group you like. A person should be watching any group they post
to.

Nov 13 '05 #35

P: n/a
Terry Kreft wrote:
Lyn,
People can get quite vehement about top and bottom posting.

Essentially theadvantage of consistent bottom posting is that you can read
through the posts in sequence.

The advantage of top posting is that when you use a preview pane the
previewed content tends to be the last post.
Lazybones :-)
On the subject of trimming, you should really trim previous posts to what is
relevant to your post, in the past people could get quite nasty about not
trimming posts, this has become less of an issue though since the advent of
fast internet links and large storage space.
Now it's the people who normally smite the non-snippers getting lazy :-)
Personally I'm a rabid top-poster and trim when I remember to do so,
speaking of which


On the subject of the vehement discussions (negotiations with a light
sabre? <g>) I don't usually smite top posters but if ask my opinion I
give it :-)

Well, at least your sig sep works so your quoted post was automatically
snipped :-)

I also hate people who end every paragraph with a smiley :-)

--
This sig left intentionally blank
Nov 13 '05 #36

P: n/a
"John Vinson" <jvinson@STOP_SPAM.WysardOfInfo.com> wrote in message
news:fn********************************@4ax.com...
On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 23:09:33 +1100, "Lyn" <lh******@ihug.com.au>
wrote:
In other words, is there an agreed netiquette on replying to posts in regardto top/bottom posting and snipping early posts to avoid bloat? If so, whatis it?
This argument has been going on as long as Usenet has existed. It
sometimes attains the intensity of a religious war. Most old Usenet
hands prefer (with varying degrees of vehemence) bottom posting in
order to maintain chronological order within a message; many other


Personally speaking..... I'm all for compromise.
folks prefer top posting, for one because many newsreaders (including
the widely used Outlook Express) default to set the cursor there, and
for the reason you cite: being able to see the reply without scrolling
down.

There's no answer that will satisfy everyone, and there are vehement
opinions both ways.

Personally, I try to trim and either bottom post or interpost, but
depending on the situation, I'll sometimes just do a quick toppost.
I'm therefore despised and denigrated by the fanatics in both camps.
<g>
John W. Vinson[MVP]

Nov 13 '05 #37

P: n/a
Rick Brandt wrote:
Crossposting is only frowned upon when the number of groups is excessive.
As this one only has four groups I would say it's fine (albeit at the high
end of fine).


I H8 it when someone cross posts to about 8 groups, legitimate question
and everything and when I reply I'm met with a message "non existent
newsgroups". I suppose a fault lies with newsgroup creators, e.g.
microsoft.public groups, how many do you really need? e.g:

microsoft.public.access.developers.toolkitode
microsoft.public.access.developerstoolkitode
microsoft.public.access.developers.toolkit

So if you had a question on the developers toolkit, where do you post?
There's loads of examples of "clientserver" vs "clientsvr", etc I'm sure
some groups could just be dropped but I guess it's harder to drop a
group than it is to create one. I see someone has created one called
"alt.netcom.wankers.send.too.many.newgroups" but ironically just creates
yet another group for someone to crosspost to.

--
This sig left intentionally blank
Nov 13 '05 #38

P: n/a
rkc
Trevor Best wrote:
I also hate people who end every paragraph with a smiley :-)


On bad days a <Grin> just makes me want to take a baseball bat
and give'em such a smash.

Nov 13 '05 #39

P: n/a
"Trevor Best" <no****@besty.org.uk> wrote...
I H8 it when someone cross posts to about 8 groups, legitimate question
and everything and when I reply I'm met with a message "non existent
newsgroups". I suppose a fault lies with newsgroup creators, e.g.
microsoft.public groups, how many do you really need? e.g:

microsoft.public.access.developers.toolkitode
microsoft.public.access.developerstoolkitode
microsoft.public.access.developers.toolkit

So if you had a question on the developers toolkit, where do you post?
There's loads of examples of "clientserver" vs "clientsvr", etc I'm sure
some groups could just be dropped but I guess it's harder to drop a
group than it is to create one. I see someone has created one called
"alt.netcom.wankers.send.too.many.newgroups" but ironically just creates
yet another group for someone to crosspost to.


The only way around THAT is to always use the original server,
msnews.microsoft.com. Many ISPs pick up groups that have actually been
removed, for example microsoft.public.access.developerstoolkitode was
removed when someone pointed out that there was a standard of some sort
suggesting <= 14 characters per segment.

The ISPs and those who they get their feeds from claim that deleting the
group would be inapprpriate since people still post sometimes.

And then problem perpetuates itself.
--
MichKa [MS]
NLS Collation/Locale/Keyboard Technical Lead
Globalization Infrastructure, Fonts, and Tools
Microsoft Windows International Division

This posting is provided "AS IS" with
no warranties, and confers no rights.

Nov 13 '05 #40

P: n/a

"Lyn" <lh******@ihug.com.au> wrote in message
news:ct**********@lust.ihug.co.nz...
This may be straying from the original topic (but then who hasn't in this
thread :-), but I have a serious question. Like David, I didn't understand the reference to "top posting". Nor Trevor's response -- at first (but I
got it eventually :-).


Lyn,

RFC1855: Netiquette Guidelines, http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html,
mandates bottom-posting.

"If you are sending a reply to a message or a posting be sure you summarize
the original at the top of the message, or include just enough text of the
original to give a context. This will make sure readers understand when
they start to read your response. Since NetNews, especially, is
proliferated by distributing the postings from one host to another, it is
possible to see a response to a message before seeing the original. Giving
context helps everyone. But do not include the entire original!"

That should be enough for anyone.
Sincerely,

Chris O.
Nov 13 '05 #41

P: n/a
(Top posted for the sheer hell of it...)

October 1995?

(Just watch Chris get vehement now.)

"Chris2" <ra******************@GETRIDOF.luminousrain.com> wrote in message
news:e-********************@comcast.com...

"Lyn" <lh******@ihug.com.au> wrote in message
news:ct**********@lust.ihug.co.nz...
This may be straying from the original topic (but then who hasn't in this thread :-), but I have a serious question. Like David, I didn't understand
the reference to "top posting". Nor Trevor's response -- at first (but I got it eventually :-).


Lyn,

RFC1855: Netiquette Guidelines, http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html,
mandates bottom-posting.

"If you are sending a reply to a message or a posting be sure you

summarize the original at the top of the message, or include just enough text of the
original to give a context. This will make sure readers understand when
they start to read your response. Since NetNews, especially, is
proliferated by distributing the postings from one host to another, it is
possible to see a response to a message before seeing the original. Giving context helps everyone. But do not include the entire original!"

That should be enough for anyone.
Sincerely,

Chris O.

Nov 13 '05 #42

P: n/a

"Rob Oldfield" <bl**@blah.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
(Top posted for the sheer hell of it...)

October 1995?

(Just watch Chris get vehement now.)


Nope. :P

It was first created in 1995, but has been updated a few times since
then.

They are only "guidelines", and not laws. (However, I do think they
are *good* guidelines.)
Chris O.
Nov 13 '05 #43

P: n/a
Whatever they "should" be doing, many crossposters expect responses to
appear in the group from which they posted. Eliminating newsgroups from a
crosspost list may well prevent the original poster from seeing your
response.

Eliminating newsgroups from responses may happen if your news source doesn't
carry them all, but that's unavoidable.

Larry Linson
Microsoft Access MVP

"Noozer" <do*******@me.here> wrote in message
news:eI**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
O.K. I asked that wrong. Is it bad form to remove newsgroups from a
cross-posted article when replying to it. I tend to remove the
groups I don't read.


Remove any group you like. A person should be watching any group they post
to.

Nov 13 '05 #44

P: n/a
"rkc" wrote
On bad days a <Grin> just makes
me want to take a baseball bat
and give'em such a smash.


Hope you're not having a bad day, today! <OUCH>
Nov 13 '05 #45

P: n/a

"Larry Linson" <bo*****@localhost.not> wrote in message
news:zXgJd.9956$CI6.2450@trnddc06...
Whatever they "should" be doing, many crossposters expect responses to
appear in the group from which they posted. Eliminating newsgroups from a
crosspost list may well prevent the original poster from seeing your
response.


So? Let them miss the response if they can't be bothered to watch where they
asked.
Nov 13 '05 #46

P: n/a
"Terry Kreft" <te*********@mps.co.uk> wrote:
A. People who complain about top/bottom posting instead of learning how to
scroll <g>.


Or folks who don't trim.

Tony
--
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
Please respond only in the newsgroups so that others can
read the entire thread of messages.
Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at
http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
Nov 13 '05 #47

P: n/a
John Vinson <jvinson@STOP_SPAM.WysardOfInfo.com> wrote:
This argument has been going on as long as Usenet has existed.


For those of us from BBSs and/or Fidonet it was defiitely trim and bottom post.

Tony
--
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
Please respond only in the newsgroups so that others can
read the entire thread of messages.
Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at
http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
Nov 13 '05 #48

P: n/a
Michael (michka) Kaplan [MS] wrote:
The only way around THAT is to always use the original server,
msnews.microsoft.com. Many ISPs pick up groups that have actually been
removed, for example microsoft.public.access.developerstoolkitode was
removed when someone pointed out that there was a standard of some sort
suggesting <= 14 characters per segment.

The ISPs and those who they get their feeds from claim that deleting the
group would be inapprpriate since people still post sometimes.

And then problem perpetuates itself.


aye, and the problem isn't restricted to ms.public either, I used to
take 3 different groups dedicated to Gigabyte motherboards, I solved
that one by upgrading to an Abit :-)

--
This sig left intentionally blank
Nov 13 '05 #49

P: n/a
Lyn
Thanks Terry, your response was quite concise. It seems that there are
valid pro's and con's for both top and bottom posting.

I think that the reason I usually top post is that a posting is like
replying to an email -- in emails you normally put your reply at the top of
any part of the email that you are replying to (at least in the business
world that I belonged to this was so). Indeed, mail clients that I have
used default the cursor to the top when replying, so it is easy and natural
to reply this way. And some of these mail clients are also news clients
which also put the cursor at the top. As someone pointed out, top posting
makes it easy to browse quickly through a thread via the preview pane to get
the gist without having to scroll every message.

OTOH, bottom posting forces the poster to scroll to the bottom (unless they
use Ctrl-End) and in doing so they get the opportunity to trim the original
posting which with top posting they may forget to do.

Perhaps the most important thing in this issue (which I don't think anyone
has mentioned, apologies if I am wrong), is not to MIX top and bottom
posting in a long thread! I have seen examples of this and it is most
confusing to follow the thread. I think that the rule should be that if an
established thread is either top or bottom, additional postings should
respect that -- unless the original postings have been trimmed to the point
that it doesn't matter anymore.

Thanks to all who responded, I think I have a better understanding of the
issues and will try to keep these in mind with future postings.
--
Cheers,
Lyn.

"Terry Kreft" <te*********@mps.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Lq********************@karoo.co.uk...
Lyn,
People can get quite vehement about top and bottom posting.

Essentially theadvantage of consistent bottom posting is that you can read
through the posts in sequence.

The advantage of top posting is that when you use a preview pane the
previewed content tends to be the last post.

On the subject of trimming, you should really trim previous posts to what
is
relevant to your post, in the past people could get quite nasty about not
trimming posts, this has become less of an issue though since the advent
of
fast internet links and large storage space.

Personally I'm a rabid top-poster and trim when I remember to do so,
speaking of which

--
Terry Kreft
MVP Microsoft Access

Nov 13 '05 #50

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