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Just how good are you really?

P: n/a
Tim
Dear Developers,

Firstly, I'm not sure where this post should go so I apologise if this
is in the wrong group or area. I'm currently interviewing for a vb.net
developer who doesn't mind prototyping the client requirements using
MS Access. We've not had much luck in finding many suitable people
through agencies and those that I have interviewed are not scoring
very high on my little test which is the reason for my post.

Please have a go and send me an email with your answers, I'll happly
mark them and return the results to you! <tpodonnell at plls.co.uk>

Cheers,

Tim

p.s. Any developers interested in moving to .net from ms access then
drop me a line if your intersted in a position in Bristol ... good pay
and good security.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
**These next two question assumes that you can see a database diagram
and question two has been omitted due to it's reference to this
diagram**
Question 1

The above diagram of figure 1.1 illustrates a diagram of the
organisational database system, what is meant by the term "E.R.D." in
the illustration description?

Question 3.

Assuming that this diagram is being viewed within SQL Server
Enterprise Manager, what do the * symbols indicate next to the table
names on the diagram.
Question 4.

The SQL statement detailed below is used within the above system, can
you describe what you think the developer is trying to achieve.

CREATE PROCEDURE [DBO].[SP_CURRENTUSER_DATA]

@USER_NAME CHAR(30) OUT,

AS

SET @USER_NAME = TRIM(@USER_NAME)

SELECT TBL_PERSONNEL.PK_PERSONNEL_ID,
TBL_PERSONNEL.FK_ORGANISATION_REF,
TBL_PERSONNEL.FK_MANAGER_REF,
TBL_PERSONNEL.FK_SECRETARY_REF,
TBL_PERSONNEL.FK_TITLE_REF,
TBL_PERSONNEL.FORE_NAME,
TBL_PERSONNEL.SURNAME,
TBL_PERSONNEL.DIRECT_PHONE,
TBL_PERSONNEL.MOBILE,
TBL_PERSONNEL.DIRECT_FAX,
TBL_PERSONNEL.EMAIL,
TBL_STAFF_INFO.PK_STAFF_ID,
TBL_STAFF_INFO.PASSWORD,
TBL_STAFF_INFO.PASSWORD_DATE,
TBL_STAFF_INFO.USER_NAME,
TBL_STAFF_INFO.ORGAN_ADMIN
FROM TBL_PERSONNEL,
TBL_STAFF_INFO
WHERE TBL_PERSONNEL.PK_PERSONNEL_ID =
TBL_STAFF_INFO.FK_PERSONNEL_REF
AND TBL_STAFF_INFO.[USER_NAME] = @USER_NAME
GO

Question 5.

Do any errors exist within the above SQL statement?

Question 6.

Assuming that any errors are fixed what would you expect to happen if
you ran the above within MS Query Analyzer?

Question 7.

What would you add to this stored procedure to aid development within
a team environment?

Question 8.

What keyword(s) would you use when declaring a class to ensure that
you are able to catch any events that are triggered by the class after
it has been instantiated?

Question 9.

What are the two main advantages of Object Orientated Programming over
standard procedural languages?

Question 10.

Below there is a short snippet of code taken from one of our VB.NET
systems. Assuming that all external variables and classes have been
instantiated correctly, what do you think the main function of this
code is? Note: "opcAdditionalProducers" is a class that has been
written specifically for the interaction of producer information and
GetAdditionalProducerInfoStatus returns the DataRowState of a specific
row held within a local data-table within this class.

Private Sub PopulateProducerListview()

Try
Dim ProducerLimit As Integer =
CType(opcAdditionalProducers.CountAdditionalProduc ers, Integer)
Dim ProducerCount As Integer
Dim intIndex As Integer = 0

lstvwAdditionalProducers.Items.Clear()

Do Until ProducerCount = ProducerLimit
If opcAdditionalProducers.GetAdditionalProducerInfoSt atus(intIndex)
<> DataRowState.Deleted Then
lstvwAdditionalProducers.Items.Add(opcAdditionalPr oducers.GetAdditionalProducerAsListViewItem(intInd ex))
ProducerCount += 1
End If
intIndex += 1
Loop

If lstvwAdditionalProducers.Items.Count > 0 Then
lstvwAdditionalProducers.Items(0).Selected = True
End If

Catch excep As System.Exception
'CATCHES ALL ERRORS
MessageBox.Show("Message: " & excep.Message)

End Try
End Sub
Question 11.

Assume that the function "CountAdditionalProducers" returns the total
number of rows that do not have a DataRowState of "deleted" from the
local data-table held within the opcAdditionalProducers class.

If this function returns a value of 15 and there are 10 rows within
the data-table that are have a DataRowState of "deleted" and 2 rows at
have a DataRowState of "modified", how many times would you expect the
"do loop" to cycle?

Question 12

The code detailed below has been taken from a standard MS Access
database application. Unfortunately the code will not compile
correctly, can you highlight any area(s) where you think an error is
present. Assume cnnLocal is a global connection to the local database.

Private Sub UpdateBordereau()

Dim rst As New ADODB.command

If cnnLocal.State = adStateClosed Then Call OpenConnection

rst.Open "SELECT * " & _
"FROM TBL_BORDEREAUS " & _
"WHERE PK_BORDEREAU_ID = " & intBordereauID, cnnLocal,
adOpenKeyset, adLockOptimistic

With rst
.Fields("MONTH") = cmbMonths.ItemData(cmbMonths.ListIndex)
.Fields("SUPPLIED_DATE") = CDate(txtSuppliedDate)
.Fields("EXCEL_DATA_LOCATION") = txtExcelFileLocation
.Fields("EXCEL_ORIGINAL_LOCATION") =
txtOriginalFileLocation
.Fields("TOT_NEW_CONTRACTS") = CInt(Nz(txtNewContracts,
0))
.Fields("TOT_CANCELLATIONS") = CInt(Nz(txtCancellations,
0))
.Fields("TOT_EXCEPTIONS") = CInt(Nz(txtExceptions, 0))
.Fields("TOT_FROM_PREVIOUS_MONTH") =
CInt(Nz(txtPreviousMonth, 0))
.Fields("TOT_ENROLLED") = CInt(Nz(txtEnrolled, 0))
.Fields("TOT_RV") = CCur(Nz(txtTotalRV, 0))
.Fields("TOT_GROSS_PREMIUM") = CCur(Nz(txtGrossPremium,
0))
.Fields("TOT_BROKER_COMMISSION") =
CCur(Nz(Me.txtGrossPremium * Nz(txtCommission, 0), 0))
.Fields("TOT_NET_PREMIUM") = CCur(Nz(txtNetPremium, 0))
.UpdateTableRow
End With

rst = Nothing
cnnLocal.Close

End Sub
Nov 13 '05 #1
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25 Replies


P: n/a
tp********@plls.co.uk (Tim) wrote:
I'm currently interviewing for a vb.net
developer who doesn't mind prototyping the client requirements using
MS Access.


Why continue on to VB.NET? Why not build the system in MS Access? Be a lot faster
thus cheaper.

Tony
--
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
Please respond only in the newsgroups so that others can
read the entire thread of messages.
Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at
http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
Nov 13 '05 #2

P: n/a
"Tim" wrote
Dear Developers,

Firstly, I'm not sure where this post should go so I apologise if this
is in the wrong group or area. I'm currently interviewing for a vb.net
developer who doesn't mind prototyping the client requirements using
MS Access. . . .
p.s. Any developers interested in moving to .net from ms access then
drop me a line if your intersted in a position in Bristol ... good pay
and good security.


Dear Tim,

I'm sure Bristol is nice, and the pay is good, but surely you are aware that
advertising, including employment solicitation, even if disguised as a
"test", is prohibited in USENET newsgroups unless the charter specifically
permits it. You can view the charter of comp.databases.ms-access at the FAQ
site, http://www.mvps.org/access/netiquette.htm to veryify that it does NOT
specifically permit ads.

That FAQ information is only posted here every single day, but perhaps you
missed it in spite of its frequency?

Thanks for your consideration in not violating the USENET rules and the
charter of the newsgroup again in the future.

Larry Linson
founding member of comp.databases.ms-access
Nov 13 '05 #3

P: n/a

Tim:

Looks like you won. We owe you $20 for catching both morons.

Dr. John,
Founding Member,
The Pretentious A-Hole Club
Nov 13 '05 #4

P: n/a
> Larry Linson
founding member of comp.databases.ms-access


Larry Linson is a senile old liar. I am THE founding father of
comp.database.ms-access. Here is my original post from April 1st 1993,
followed by the RFD sent to news.announce.newgroups on April 6th of that year.
It was MY idea. Period.

Yours,

Mau Napolean

Newsgroups: comp.windows.x.apps
From: ma*@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Mau Napoleon)
Subject: CREATION OF ACCESS NEWSGROUP
Message-ID: <19******************@news.uiowa.edu>
Sender: ne**@news.uiowa.edu (News)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1993 19:18:49 GMT
Reply-To: ma*@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Mau Napoleon)
Nntp-Posting-Host: herky.cs.uiowa.edu
Organization: U of Iowa, Iowa City, IA
Lines: 16
Hi
I would like to know if there are enough people interested in the creation
of a newsgroup dedicated to access.
Say comp.database.access

Since I think that a minimum of 100 votes are needed, I would not like to
start the process of creation if enought people are not interested.
If the vote for the groups creation fail then we must wait for 6 months
before we can try again.

If you are interested please send me e-mail. If there are enough people
interested I will start the process.

Thanks
Napoleon
ma*@herky.cs.uiowa.edu

////////

From: ma*@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Mau Napoleon)
Newsgroups:
news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,comp.databases ,comp.os.ms-windows.apps,comp
..os.ms-windows.misc,comp.os.ms-windows.programmer.misc
Subject: RFD: comp.databases.access
Followup-To: news.groups
Date: 6 Apr 1993 12:31:14 -0400
Organization: UUNET Communications
Lines: 25
Sender: ta**@rodan.UU.NET
Approved: ta**@uunet.uu.net
Message-ID: <1p**********@rodan.UU.NET>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net
Oganization: uiowa.edu
This is an official RFD for the creation of a new newsgroup for the
general discussion of the Microsoft Access RDMS.

NAME: COMP.DATABASES.ACCESS

MODERATION: UNMODERATED. At this time, no need for a moderator has been
assertained. Future evaluation will determine if one is needed.

PURPOSE:
Access is a new RDBMS for the Windows Operating System. It includes WYSIWYG
design tools for easy creation of tables, reports, forms and queries and a
database programming language called Access Basic.
THe purpose of the group will be to provide help to people who use Access's
WYSIWYG design tools to create simple databases as well as to people who use
Access Basic to create complex databases.

RATIONALE:
Eventhough Access is a new RDBMS, it is very popular because of its Graphical
Development enviroment and its initial low price.
Been a version 1.0 product means that all Access users are Novices.
For that reason a newsgroup is needed where Access users can discuss
their experiences with the product and answer each other's questions.
--
Napoleon
ma*@herky.cs.uiowa.edu

Nov 13 '05 #5

P: n/a
Larry Linson wrote:
"Tim" wrote
Dear Developers,

Firstly, I'm not sure where this post should go so I apologise if
this is in the wrong group or area. I'm currently interviewing for a
vb.net developer who doesn't mind prototyping the client
requirements using MS Access. . . .
p.s. Any developers interested in moving to .net from ms access then
drop me a line if your intersted in a position in Bristol ... good
pay and good security.


Dear Tim,

I'm sure Bristol is nice


Just don't go there at chucking out time. :)

Oh and Tim, slap on hand, no advertising. If you're serious I can't believe
you find it hard to get a good developer. I work in London and hired
someone to help me out with no problems. Admittedly I got lucky first time
but I'm surprised it's got to the stage you have to break this groups
charter in the hope of snaring someone.
Nov 13 '05 #6

P: n/a
"Larry Linson" <bo*****@localhost.not> wrote in message
news:0U*****************@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
"Tim" wrote
Dear Developers,

Firstly, I'm not sure where this post should go so I apologise if this
is in the wrong group or area. I'm currently interviewing for a vb.net
developer who doesn't mind prototyping the client requirements using
MS Access. . . .
p.s. Any developers interested in moving to .net from ms access then
drop me a line if your intersted in a position in Bristol ... good pay
and good security.
Dear Tim,

I'm sure Bristol is nice, and the pay is good, but surely you are aware

that advertising, including employment solicitation, even if disguised as a
"test", is prohibited in USENET newsgroups unless the charter specifically
permits it. You can view the charter of comp.databases.ms-access at the FAQ site, http://www.mvps.org/access/netiquette.htm to veryify that it does NOT specifically permit ads.

That FAQ information is only posted here every single day, but perhaps you
missed it in spite of its frequency?

Thanks for your consideration in not violating the USENET rules and the
charter of the newsgroup again in the future.

Larry Linson
founding member of comp.databases.ms-access

Nov 13 '05 #7

P: n/a
"Larry Linson" <bo*****@localhost.not> wrote in message
news:0U*****************@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
Thanks for your consideration in not violating the USENET rules and the
charter of the newsgroup again in the future.

Larry Linson
founding member of comp.databases.ms-access


We've been down this road before, but I just get so irritated when I see
these sorts of responses. Who does a post like this actually hurt? And if
it helps someone in the group get a job, so what? Far better than the
hypocrites here who weasel their way around the rules with unimaginative,
insipid, two-line answers followed by a 10-line sig.

And it's not as if the admonishments actually have any effect. Adverts and
job solictations are no less prevalent here than they are in the sql server
groups, where these posts are just ignored. In fact the only thing the
"standard admonishment" actually accomplishes is to make cdma look like a
bunch of crybabies. That, and to have some people get so pissed off that
they start a low-level guerilla warfare campaign against the group.


Nov 13 '05 #8

P: n/a
"Dr. John" <DJ*******@hotmail.com> wrote:
X-Abuse-Report: ab***@teranews.com


Please ignore the above posting and others which are somewhat bizarre.

Note to persons new to this newsgroup. One person, with many identities, is being
rather disruptive. If you see a bizarre posting it's probably the work of this
disruptive person..

Check the headers of the posting. If you see the following the posting likely can be
ignored. Of course, there will likely be other headers to be added to this list.

Comments: This message did not originate from the Sender address above.
It was remailed automatically by anonymizing remailer software.
or
X-Abuse-Report: ab***@teranews.com
or
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
or
Organization: 100ProofNews.com - Unlimited Downloads - $8.95/Month
or
X-Complaints-To: ab***@vnet-inc.com

You can also change your NewsReader program settings to ignore off-topic posts. See
http://www.hyphenologist.co.uk/killfile/ for more information.

Tony
--
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
Please respond only in the newsgroups so that others can
read the entire thread of messages.
Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at
http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
Nov 13 '05 #9

P: n/a

"Tony Toews" <tt****@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:3p********************************@4ax.com...

< TA TA TA TONY TU TU TOEWS THE THE STUTTER >

Nov 13 '05 #10

P: n/a

"Larry Linson" <bo*****@localhost.not> wrote in message
news:0U*****************@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...

Larry Linson
founding member of comp.databases.ms-access


Really? I didn't know Michael Kaplan pimps were considered founding
members.
Nov 13 '05 #11

P: n/a

"John Winterbottom" <as******@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2j************@uni-berlin.de...
"Larry Linson" <bo*****@localhost.not> wrote in message
news:0U*****************@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
Thanks for your consideration in not violating the USENET rules and the
charter of the newsgroup again in the future.

Larry Linson
founding member of comp.databases.ms-access
We've been down this road before, but I just get so irritated when I see
these sorts of responses. Who does a post like this actually hurt? And if
it helps someone in the group get a job, so what? Far better than the
hypocrites here who weasel their way around the rules with unimaginative,
insipid, two-line answers followed by a 10-line sig.

And it's not as if the admonishments actually have any effect. Adverts and
job solictations are no less prevalent here than they are in the sql

server groups, where these posts are just ignored. In fact the only thing the
"standard admonishment" actually accomplishes is to make cdma look like a
bunch of crybabies. That, and to have some people get so pissed off that
they start a low-level guerilla warfare campaign against the group.


Hey, Old Splinterbottom, what's this? You've finally come to your senses?
Nov 13 '05 #12

P: n/a
John Winterbottom wrote:
"Larry Linson" <bo*****@localhost.not> wrote in message
news:0U*****************@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
Thanks for your consideration in not violating the USENET rules and
the charter of the newsgroup again in the future.

Larry Linson
founding member of comp.databases.ms-access
We've been down this road before, but I just get so irritated when I
see these sorts of responses. Who does a post like this actually
hurt? And if it helps someone in the group get a job, so what? Far
better than the hypocrites here who weasel their way around the rules
with unimaginative, insipid, two-line answers followed by a 10-line
sig.


It was off-topic that's why. There's a reason why there are different
newsgroups for different kinds of content. There are other opportunities
for Tim to advertise for a developer, includng newsgroups that permit ads,
job websites, agencies and lord knows what else.
So hiring someone from a technical newsgroup is hardly the most efficient
method - most job seekers aren't here.
Go somewhere else. It makes more sense.
And it's not as if the admonishments actually have any effect.
Well they seem to be winding you up. I suggest you use your killfile.
Adverts and job solictations are no less prevalent here than they are
in the sql server groups, where these posts are just ignored. In fact
the only thing the "standard admonishment" actually accomplishes is
to make cdma look like a bunch of crybabies.
Well if no one says anything then we might as well have one newsgroup for
everything. No harm in that then is there? As for "crybabies" I think no.
More like trying to impose some coherent order on the group by poliitely
asking people to observe the rules.
That, and to have some
people get so pissed off that they start a low-level guerilla warfare
campaign against the group.


The twat who's been posting recently hasn't been doing this in response to
and "admonishment". I've no idea what precipitated that, nor do I care but
my killfile sees plenty of use :)
Nov 13 '05 #13

P: n/a
Well, hello there, Don. Found someone new to impersonate, did you, with a
hotmail e-mail and one of your favorite newsservers?

For those who aren't frequently in this newsgroup, Don is our resident
poster of bizarre, and insulting, and character assassination posts. Of
late, he has been semi-impersonating people here who have credibility in the
newsgroups, but I'm not sure that "Napoleon" falls in that category.

Just for the record, even a little less searching than it took Don to find
the RFD, and another person to impersonate, will reveal that Larry Linson,
posting from chrysalis.org, was one of the affirmative votes for creating
this newsgroup, in response to the 1993 CFV.
"Mau Napolean" <Ma****@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:JN**********************@wagner.videotron.net ...
Larry Linson
founding member of comp.databases.ms-access


Larry Linson is a . . .


Nov 13 '05 #14

P: n/a

"Dr. John" <DJ*******@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8f******************************@news.teranew s.com...

You misspellled "Don"... hth.
Nov 13 '05 #15

P: n/a
"John Winterbottom" wrote
We've been down this road before, but
I just get so irritated when I see these
sorts of responses. Who does a post like
this actually hurt? And if it helps someone
in the group get a job, so what? Far better
than the hypocrites here who weasel their
way around the rules with unimaginative,
insipid, two-line answers followed by a
10-line sig.
Perhaps you did not remember the details of having "gone down this path
before" including your complaints about our being assertive about the rules
and charter, and the reasons. In fact, our efforts along those lines have
been reasonably successful, and the responsible people who answer questions,
including you, have not let DPM's campaign to destroy the newsgroup succeed.
And, you rarely see a commercial employment solicitation here, certainly not
on the regular basis that was beginning to be the rule when some of us
decided we had to assert the rules and charter.

I'm sorry that you are irritated by it, but if you prefer newsgroups where
unfettered advertising is allowed, there are plenty of them. On the other
hand, most of those are not too good for asking and answering technical
questions.
And it's not as if the admonishments actually
have any effect. Adverts and job solictations
are no less prevalent here than they are in the
sql server groups, where these posts are just
ignored.


John, if you had observed, as many have, newsgroups that were so filled with
advertising, employment solicitations, and other off-topic garbage, you
wouldn't be so supportive for violation of the rules and charter. Do you
remember a past participant here named Pedro Gil? As we maintained our
assertive position here and kept this newsgroup useful for the purpose for
which it is chartered, he e-mailed me asking how they could "take back" a
Portuguese-language newsgroup that had been so filled with junk that it had
become useless for its intended purpose. It became so junked up that the
knowledgeable people who could answer questions got frustrated and left;
then the people who had questions to which they needed but weren't getting
answers left, and it ended up populated by no one but the spammers, trolls,
and porn advertisers. They didn't stop, because it cost them nothing to
include it on their posting list and, thus, they don't bother to measure
where the responses from their spam are coming from. That is not a-typical
in USENET.

And, the idea that our assertiveness regarding USENET rules and the charter
is the "reason" for DPM continually ressurrecting himself under different
and anonymous pseudonyms is as silly as the idea that if we just had somehow
been nicer to them, the 9/11 homicide hijackers would have stayed quietly at
home singing "Allah Bless America". BTW, FYI, DPM's guerilla campaign is not
always "low level"; sometimes it is absolutely manic in its intensity.

Regards,

Larry Linson
"plank owner" of comp.databases.ms-access
(that is, caster of an official, affirmative vote for
the group's formation)


Nov 13 '05 #16

P: n/a
"Larry Linson" <bo*****@localhost.not> wrote in message
news:a1******************@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
Perhaps you did not remember the details of having "gone down this path
before" including your complaints about our being assertive about the rules and charter, and the reasons. In fact, our efforts along those lines have
been reasonably successful, and the responsible people who answer questions, including you, have not let DPM's campaign to destroy the newsgroup succeed. And, you rarely see a commercial employment solicitation here, certainly not on the regular basis that was beginning to be the rule when some of us
decided we had to assert the rules and charter.

I'm sorry that you are irritated by it, but if you prefer newsgroups where
unfettered advertising is allowed, there are plenty of them. On the other
hand, most of those are not too good for asking and answering technical
questions.

If you go over to comp.databases.sql-server and scan down a few hundred
posts. You'll find
that:

a) The level of adverising there is no greater than it is here,
b) The ratio of posts answered to total posts is quite a bit higher than
here, and
c) The quality of the answers is uniformly excellent.

You'll also find the signal to noise ratio there is greater than here,
mainly because they don't have to put up wih all the crap from Mr Mellon and
his alter egos.

John, if you had observed, as many have, newsgroups that were so filled with advertising, employment solicitations, and other off-topic garbage, you
wouldn't be so supportive for violation of the rules and charter. Do you
remember a past participant here named Pedro Gil? As we maintained our
assertive position here and kept this newsgroup useful for the purpose for
which it is chartered, he e-mailed me asking how they could "take back" a
Portuguese-language newsgroup that had been so filled with junk that it had become useless for its intended purpose. It became so junked up that the
knowledgeable people who could answer questions got frustrated and left;
then the people who had questions to which they needed but weren't getting
answers left, and it ended up populated by no one but the spammers, trolls, and porn advertisers. They didn't stop, because it cost them nothing to
include it on their posting list and, thus, they don't bother to measure
where the responses from their spam are coming from. That is not a-typical
in USENET.

That was the past. The present state of the comp.databases groups, like
comp.databases.sql-server, should be enough to prove that this no longer
applies.
And, the idea that our assertiveness regarding USENET rules and the charter is the "reason" for DPM continually ressurrecting himself under different
and anonymous pseudonyms is as silly as the idea that if we just had somehow been nicer to them, the 9/11 homicide hijackers would have stayed quietly at home singing "Allah Bless America". BTW, FYI, DPM's guerilla campaign is not always "low level"; sometimes it is absolutely manic in its intensity.


Don's campaign would wither and fade if only you and others would chill out,
and stop responding to every one of his posts. As far as equating your
"defence" of the newsgroup with the thousands of brave men and women who
defend our country, that, my friend, is ludicrous bordering on insulting.

One last thing. I searched through the FAQ again one more time, just to make
sure, and I couldn't find the place where it says advertising is allowed
only from certain people. In fact, what it says is:

" The following are specifically forbidden in the CDMA newsgroup:
Advertising of any kind, even if the product is free,
a demo or otherwise."
Given the above, please can you explain how Tony's answer to the original
poster is not considered a violation of the charter?




Nov 13 '05 #17

P: n/a
"John Winterbottom" <as******@hotmail.com> wrote

Given the above, please can you explain
how Tony's answer to the original
poster is not considered a violation of the charter?


Whether you accept it or not, contact information in a sig line, including
information about commercial entities is not considered "advertising",
AFAIK, anywhere in the Internet. There are some accepted RFDs _suggesting_ a
limit on the number of sig lines but they are suggestions.

IMNSHO, John, that is why Tony's answer is not considered a violation.
Obviously, DPM and some others do not agree, but then DPM is always looking
for something to troll about.

Are you proposing that because "that was then, and this is now" that USENET
rules or the charter of this newsgroup be changed? USENET rules apply to
tens of thousands of newsgroups, not just this one, and that is what
prohibits unsolicited advertising posts (as the original in this thread
clearly was... not contact information in a sig, but a teaser to solicit
applications for employment).

It has, by the way, never worked in the past to simply ignore DPM and his
many sockpuppets. What makes you think that doing so now would be any
different? Be careful, or you'll entice him to troll in your other favorite
newsgroup, too. He trolled _some_ in comp.lang.basic.visual.misc as TheDoDo
and possibly under other pseudonyms, too, I believe. I don't know if he is
still doing that, as I haven't participated there very much lately.

You really think that we, who simply post to inform new users that the posts
are bogux, are the ones responsible, and not DPM who attacks from behind
anonymizers and semi-anonymous news servers? If so, your thinking is really
off-base, John.

Larry

Nov 13 '05 #18

P: n/a

"Larry Linson" <bo*****@localhost.not> wrote in message
news:ba******************@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
"John Winterbottom" <as******@hotmail.com> wrote Whether you accept it or not, contact information in a sig line, including
information about commercial entities is not considered "advertising",
AFAIK, anywhere in the Internet. There are some accepted RFDs _suggesting_ a limit on the number of sig lines but they are suggestions.

IMNSHO, John, that is why Tony's answer is not considered a violation.

What is it you don't understand about "NO ADVERTISING"?
Who're you to interpret the rules of this newsgroup?
Why is your head up your ass?
Or up somebody else's?
Nov 13 '05 #19

P: n/a
"John Winterbottom" <as******@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:2j************@uni-berlin.de:
If you go over to comp.databases.sql-server and scan down a few
hundred posts. You'll find
that:

a) The level of adverising there is no greater than it is here,
b) The ratio of posts answered to total posts is quite a bit
higher than here, and
c) The quality of the answers is uniformly excellent.

You'll also find the signal to noise ratio there is greater than
here, mainly because they don't have to put up wih all the crap
from Mr Mellon and his alter egos.


Are you meaning to suggest that if this newsgroup allowed soliciting
that Don wouldn't still be spewing his crap?

I don't think so!

I remind you that the prohibition against advertising is only one of
Don's many hobby horses -- he'd be just as disruptive on some other
topic if solicitation were not an issue. That's because Don's
disruptions have zilch to do with the merit of the positions he
takes -- his attempts to disrupt the newsgroup just for the purpose
of disrupting the newsgroup.

The cds-q is lucky not to have attracted a lunatic. The allowance of
solicitation would certainly be no protection against crazies.

--
David W. Fenton http://www.bway.net/~dfenton
dfenton at bway dot net http://www.bway.net/~dfassoc
Nov 13 '05 #20

P: n/a
"Larry Linson" <bo*****@localhost.not> wrote in message
news:ba******************@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
"John Winterbottom" <as******@hotmail.com> wrote
>
> Given the above, please can you explain
> how Tony's answer to the original
> poster is not considered a violation of the charter?
>
Whether you accept it or not, contact information in a sig line, including
information about commercial entities is not considered "advertising",
AFAIK, anywhere in the Internet. There are some accepted RFDs _suggesting_

a limit on the number of sig lines but they are suggestions.
IMNSHO, John, that is why Tony's answer is not considered a violation.
Obviously, DPM and some others do not agree, but then DPM is always looking for something to troll about.
Where a newsgroup has a charter or FAQ, that document should take precedence
over the general usenet rules. The CDMA FAQ states that "all advertising is
strictly prohibited". There are no provisos or exceptions. Sounds pretty
clear to me. Tony wasn't even answering a question, since none was actually
asked. But he still gets some free advertising out of the deal. Don't get me
wrong - I have nothing against Tony or his signature. I just have a problem
with blatent hypocrisy..
Are you proposing that because "that was then, and this is now" that USENET rules or the charter of this newsgroup be changed? USENET rules apply to
tens of thousands of newsgroups, not just this one, and that is what
prohibits unsolicited advertising posts (as the original in this thread
clearly was... not contact information in a sig, but a teaser to solicit
applications for employment).
No, I'm not proposing we change the rules. I'm proposing we do what a lot of
the other comp. groups do and that is chill out and ignore them. I just
scanned down 500 posts in comp.databases.ms-sql-server, (no, I do not have
anything better to do, now that you ask). In those 540 posts I found a mere
8 that would constitute spam or advertising. Not one of those received a
reply from the group, (in fact the only replies came from other groups to
which they had crossposted, such as, yes, you guessed it, CDMA). By
contrast, this thread has already generated 15 responses and counting. (In
the meantime, Tim, the original poster, has long since shaken his head,
smiled and walked away).

And the occasional, (8 of 540 counts as occasional to me), job posting or ad
doesn't hurt anyone. Some are quite useful in fact. If a vendor of a sql
utility program releases a new version where is the harm in letting their
announcement go unadmonished? The usenet equivalent of decriminalization.
It has, by the way, never worked in the past to simply ignore DPM and his
many sockpuppets. What makes you think that doing so now would be any
different?
From the FAQ:
"The best way to deal with a troll is to ignore him"

Every time I see you or Tony trying to engage Don in debate I feel like
emailing you and asking you please to just do what the FAQ says and ignore
him.
You really think that we, who simply post to inform new users that the posts are bogux, are the ones responsible, and not DPM who attacks from behind
anonymizers and semi-anonymous news servers?
Of course I don't, and you know that. You're being deliberately
disingeneous.

I do believe though that, inadvertantly, (or maybe vertantly for all I
know), you and
Tony are encouraging Don. Every one of your replies does this. And don't
worry about the newbies,
the set of new users who can't tell that Don's posts are bogus is a very,
very small one indeed. .



Nov 13 '05 #21

P: n/a

"Sandy Day" <Sa******@westlaw.net> wrote in message
news:e4******************************@news.teranew s.com...

"Larry Linson" <bo*****@localhost.not> wrote in message
news:ba******************@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
"John Winterbottom" <as******@hotmail.com> wrote
Whether you accept it or not, contact information in a sig line, including information about commercial entities is not considered "advertising",
AFAIK, anywhere in the Internet. There are some accepted RFDs

_suggesting_ a
limit on the number of sig lines but they are suggestions.

IMNSHO, John, that is why Tony's answer is not considered a violation.

What is it you don't understand about "NO ADVERTISING"?
Who're you to interpret the rules of this newsgroup?
Why is your head up your ass?
Or up somebody else's?

I wish you hadn't used language like that. Now we'll have Fenton to deal
with.
Nov 13 '05 #22

P: n/a
In article <Xn**********************************@24.168.128.8 6>,
dX********@bway.net.invalid says...

"John Winterbottom" <as******@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:2j************@uni-berlin.de:
If you go over to comp.databases.sql-server and scan down a few
hundred posts. You'll find
that:

a) The level of adverising there is no greater than it is here,
b) The ratio of posts answered to total posts is quite a bit
higher than here, and
c) The quality of the answers is uniformly excellent.

You'll also find the signal to noise ratio there is greater than
here, mainly because they don't have to put up wih all the crap
from Mr Mellon and his alter egos.


Are you meaning to suggest that if this newsgroup allowed soliciting
that Don wouldn't still be spewing his crap?

I don't think so!

I remind you that the prohibition against advertising is only one of
Don's many hobby horses -- he'd be just as disruptive on some other
topic if solicitation were not an issue.


A topic like David W. Fenton The Pedophile Sodomite Who Dreams Of Cocksucking
Jesus, you mean?

Nov 13 '05 #23

P: n/a
"John Winterbottom" wrote
Where a newsgroup has a charter or FAQ,
that document should take precedence
over the general usenet rules.


That is your idea of how things should work, but it is not the way things do
work. The USENET rules cover many more things than charters do, and charters
define the subject, and a few exceptions to the general rules -- for
example, the exception that permits posting of advertisements.

FAQs are just user-friendly explanations, not a new set of rules.

If you oppose contact information in SIGs, I'm sure there's an official
process for creating and having circulated an RFD. I'm not sure that one on
that subject is going to get any support, because it's well covered in
existing, adopted RFDs.
Nov 13 '05 #24

P: n/a
"Larry Linson" <bo*****@localhost.not> wrote in message
news:rl******************@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
"John Winterbottom" wrote
> Where a newsgroup has a charter or FAQ,
> that document should take precedence
> over the general usenet rules.
That is your idea of how things should work, but it is not the way things

do work. The USENET rules cover many more things than charters do, and charters define the subject, and a few exceptions to the general rules -- for
example, the exception that permits posting of advertisements.

FAQs are just user-friendly explanations, not a new set of rules.

If you oppose contact information in SIGs, I'm sure there's an official
process for creating and having circulated an RFD. I'm not sure that one on that subject is going to get any support, because it's well covered in
existing, adopted RFDs.

There are lots of things I oppose Larry, but contact information in
signatures is not one of them. I oppose hypocrisy. I oppose censorship in
virtually all its forms. I also oppose those people without enough plain,
old-fashioned commonsense to realize when a once useful rule has become
outdated, useless and counter-productive.
Nov 13 '05 #25

P: n/a

"John Winterbottom" <as******@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2j************@uni-berlin.de...
I oppose hypocrisy.

Linson + Hypocracy = Don't Go There!
Nov 13 '05 #26

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