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ADPs ... another view

I have developed ADPs now for three years, in Ac2K and AcXP. I have sold
two ADP applications for > $30,000 USD, one to a large company in Atlanta,
and one to a local (Ontario, Canada) school board, and numerous smaller
ones.

Initially my applications have started as accessing MS-SQL Server over the
internet. For development purposes I use MSDE, or rent an SQL Server DB
from my site provider for $15 USD monthly. The "school board" application
above is in the process of reverting to using the Board's SQL server over
their intranet. This was a planned change and is in place to comply with
their policies, and not for any performance or known security issue.

I have not experienced any major problems with ADPs. There were three
issues which I found puzzling for a brief time:

1. I could not get sub forms to link properly; I can now, but I cannot
explain what I am doing new, or differently (incidentally, I started
linking my own "sub forms" and found this to be simple and powerful);

2. I could not filter the record source for a report at run time; in MS's
ADP newsgroup, someone pointed out that a report's Input Parameters could
be set to a form control's value, or to a public function, and that solved
that problem completely;

3. I found that ADPs seem very sensitive to the proper installation of MDAC
(specifically ADO). If itís not A-1 they crash, with an error message which
is not so helpful, and, AFAIK, undocumented. Finding MS's Comcheck utility
allowed me to check and verify what the problem was, but this still
troubles me, as I find that IT departments can be lax about these
installations.

Typically my applications have hundreds of stored procedures, and only a
few small VBA modules. Often my VBA provides parameters for SPROCs only. I
have learned just how powerful VIEWS can be, and I am especially impressed
with updating them; that is one can update a VIEW which is scripted in some
particular way, and this updates one of the source tables for the VIEW. I
also note that one can use a VIEW as the source for a SPROC, combining the
filtering of the one, with the immediacy of the other.

Although I don't use much VBA, in the school board application I have a
time tabling segment. As it looks at many possible solutions (factorials in
some cases) it is very code intensive, and for this I use VBA, preferring
not to have so much drain on the Server CPU (SPROC solution), when I can
distribute that drain among many client machines (VBA solution). For the
time tabling, I use batch updates. To date, these many thousands of updates
have not resulted in any problems or errors. The VBA solution and the SPROC
solution take about the same time to do the same thing. BTW, do you know
that one can largely duplicate one's VBA code in SPROCS because one has
IFS, CASE and LOOPS available, variables, and UDFs there?

I could not advise anyone else about whether or not to use MDBs, or ADPs.
I've never used ODBC. I am by nature a problem solver, and quite compulsive
about code. I prefer a platform that does less for me, rather than one that
does more. I develop in ADPs and not in MDBs, and probably would not take
on an MDB job, even if it were quite lucrative. I think that ADPs are very
much advanced over MDBs in both concept and realization.

I write this to point out that at least one developer, (me), is both
committed to, and successful with ADPs, and has found no unsolvable
problems in working with them. He has sold ADP applications, and it seems
his clients are happy.

I have been working with databases since the time of DBaseIII, about 1983
(I think). I have progressed through FoxBase, FoxPro, Clipper and ...
Access. Clipper is likely to remain for me the most useful p-coding
language with which I have ever dealt, but I do like ADPs.

I am sorry if you feel that I should have attached this to one of the
current threads on this subject. I feel that I could not have done so
without contradicting what others have said, or confronting them. And I
simply wish to state my views, based on my experience. It is that ADPs are
great.

--
Lyle
(for e-mail refer to http://ffdba.com/contacts.htm)
Nov 12 '05 #1
19 1571
DFS
"Lyle Fairfield" <Mi************ @Invalid.Com> wrote in message
news:Xn******** ***********@130 .133.1.4...
I have developed ADPs now for three years, in Ac2K and AcXP. I have sold
two ADP applications for > $30,000 USD, one to a large company in Atlanta,
and one to a local (Ontario, Canada) school board, and numerous smaller
ones.

Initially my applications have started as accessing MS-SQL Server over the
internet. For development purposes I use MSDE, or rent an SQL Server DB
from my site provider for $15 USD monthly.
You do know you can buy a Developer version of SQL Server 2000 for about
$50?
The "school board" application
above is in the process of reverting to using the Board's SQL server over
their intranet. This was a planned change and is in place to comply with
their policies, and not for any performance or known security issue.

I have not experienced any major problems with ADPs. There were three
issues which I found puzzling for a brief time:

1. I could not get sub forms to link properly; I can now, but I cannot
explain what I am doing new, or differently (incidentally, I started
linking my own "sub forms" and found this to be simple and powerful);

2. I could not filter the record source for a report at run time; in MS's
ADP newsgroup, someone pointed out that a report's Input Parameters could
be set to a form control's value, or to a public function, and that solved
that problem completely;

3. I found that ADPs seem very sensitive to the proper installation of MDAC (specifically ADO). If itís not A-1 they crash, with an error message which is not so helpful, and, AFAIK, undocumented. Finding MS's Comcheck utility
allowed me to check and verify what the problem was, but this still
troubles me, as I find that IT departments can be lax about these
installations.

Typically my applications have hundreds of stored procedures, and only a
few small VBA modules. Often my VBA provides parameters for SPROCs only. I
have learned just how powerful VIEWS can be, and I am especially impressed
with updating them; that is one can update a VIEW which is scripted in some particular way, and this updates one of the source tables for the VIEW. I
also note that one can use a VIEW as the source for a SPROC, combining the
filtering of the one, with the immediacy of the other.

Although I don't use much VBA, in the school board application I have a
time tabling segment. As it looks at many possible solutions (factorials in some cases) it is very code intensive, and for this I use VBA, preferring
not to have so much drain on the Server CPU (SPROC solution), when I can
distribute that drain among many client machines (VBA solution). For the
time tabling, I use batch updates. To date, these many thousands of updates have not resulted in any problems or errors. The VBA solution and the SPROC solution take about the same time to do the same thing. BTW, do you know
that one can largely duplicate one's VBA code in SPROCS because one has
IFS, CASE and LOOPS available, variables, and UDFs there?

I could not advise anyone else about whether or not to use MDBs, or ADPs.
I've never used ODBC. I am by nature a problem solver, and quite compulsive about code. I prefer a platform that does less for me, rather than one that does more. I develop in ADPs and not in MDBs, and probably would not take
on an MDB job, even if it were quite lucrative. I think that ADPs are very
much advanced over MDBs in both concept and realization.

I write this to point out that at least one developer, (me), is both
committed to, and successful with ADPs, and has found no unsolvable
problems in working with them. He has sold ADP applications, and it seems
his clients are happy.

I have been working with databases since the time of DBaseIII, about 1983
(I think). I have progressed through FoxBase, FoxPro, Clipper and ...
Access. Clipper is likely to remain for me the most useful p-coding
language with which I have ever dealt, but I do like ADPs.

I am sorry if you feel that I should have attached this to one of the
current threads on this subject. I feel that I could not have done so
without contradicting what others have said, or confronting them. And I
simply wish to state my views, based on my experience. It is that ADPs are
great.

--
Lyle
(for e-mail refer to http://ffdba.com/contacts.htm)

Nov 12 '05 #2
On Thu, 8 Jan 2004 17:38:49 -0500, DFS wrote:
"Lyle Fairfield" <Mi************ @Invalid.Com> wrote in message
news:Xn******** ***********@130 .133.1.4...
Initially my applications have started as accessing MS-SQL Server over the
internet. For development purposes I use MSDE, or rent an SQL Server DB
from my site provider for $15 USD monthly.


You do know you can buy a Developer version of SQL Server 2000 for about
$50?


Correct, e.g.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...359866-8410550

Peter

--
No mails please.
Nov 12 '05 #3
TC

"DFS" <no****@nospam. com> wrote in message
news:vv******** ****@corp.super news.com...
"Lyle Fairfield" <Mi************ @Invalid.Com> wrote in message
news:Xn******** ***********@130 .133.1.4...
I have developed ADPs now for three years, in Ac2K and AcXP. I have sold
two ADP applications for > $30,000 USD, one to a large company in Atlanta, and one to a local (Ontario, Canada) school board, and numerous smaller
ones.

Initially my applications have started as accessing MS-SQL Server over the internet. For development purposes I use MSDE, or rent an SQL Server DB
from my site provider for $15 USD monthly.


You do know you can buy a Developer version of SQL Server 2000 for about
$50?

YIKES! I assumed there'd be some zeros on the end of that! And the other
respondent's link identifies "used" copies for $25 !!

TC

Nov 12 '05 #4
RE/
There were three
issues


I dabbled in the Access 2000 version, but didn't feel comfortable enough to try
it on my new project at the time - especially after reading a passage in an MS
Access 2000 "How-To" book that said the 2000 version was "almost ready for prime
time".

I'd still like to try it - especially after hearing that you've got apps that
work over an internet connection. I'm squashing the final bugs in a project
control app that the client swore was just for his and a couple of other local
divisions - and now they're taking it national (Philadelphia is the client's
location and Chicago is their parent org) over the corporate WAN. Works OK,
but I'm dreading the day somebody wants to use it from home over dialup.

Have you figured out a way to pre-populate combo boxes? - i.e. load them up
before a form opens so the user does not have to wait for a large list to load.
Currently I resort to having AutoExec load JET cache tables in a work DB in
C:\TEMP.

Also, do you implement disconnected edits? - i.e. user clicks an "Edit" button,
the form's controls become editable, but nothing goes into the DB until the user
clicks "Save"....a nd clicking "Cancel" repopulates the form as it was before the
user clicked "Edit"...?
--
PeteCresswell
Nov 12 '05 #5
"(Pete Cresswell)" <x@y.z> wrote in
news:3o******** *************** *********@4ax.c om:
RE/
There were three
issues


I dabbled in the Access 2000 version, but didn't feel comfortable enough
to try it on my new project at the time - especially after reading a
passage in an MS Access 2000 "How-To" book that said the 2000 version
was "almost ready for prime time".

I'd still like to try it - especially after hearing that you've got apps
that work over an internet connection. I'm squashing the final bugs in
a project control app that the client swore was just for his and a
couple of other local divisions - and now they're taking it national
(Philadelphia is the client's location and Chicago is their parent org)
over the corporate WAN. Works OK, but I'm dreading the day somebody
wants to use it from home over dialup.

Have you figured out a way to pre-populate combo boxes? - i.e. load them
up before a form opens so the user does not have to wait for a large
list to load. Currently I resort to having AutoExec load JET cache
tables in a work DB in C:\TEMP.

Also, do you implement disconnected edits? - i.e. user clicks an "Edit"
button, the form's controls become editable, but nothing goes into the
DB until the user clicks "Save"....a nd clicking "Cancel" repopulates the
form as it was before the user clicked "Edit"...?


Yes ... a lot. I also write HTA applications, and with them, this is the
only way, with Reset returning the form to its original state.

I've never experienced any difficulty with waits for combo boxes to populate.
But then when a combo box list's count is likely to be more than a few dozen,
I will probably program this as an external popup form.

I have not used dialup connections extensively with ADPs, and would recommend
something quicker. But I do know that with one small app I wrote, various
people were using the app simultaneously across the USA, as a pseudo
"whiteboard " for committee meetings and deliberations and that some of these
people were on dialups in hotel rooms. As I heard no complaints, and as the
committee deliberations were completed, I think it worked. But this was a
very skinny app that I wrote for this purpose only. Which gets to another
nice point about ADPs, they can be very small, less than a meg. This helps
(me at least) in that I can give bits and pieces to people in the
organization who have limited needs or permissions. They never see, or even
know about the main application. And their SPs, Views etc can be specifically
enabled for them, while nothing else is.

I find that with a cable modem (one server in Atlanta, another in Palo Alto),
my processing is as quick as with using MSDE situated on my work machine, and
in fact during development time, I have to examine my connection to know
which one I am using.

I've posted before that using CurrentProject. Connection can be many, many
times slower for ADO/VBA stuff than using a new connection based on
CurrentProject. BaseConnectionS tring. I believe it is because of the nature of
the connection, Access's being optimized to do everything of course, while
the lesser one is more single task intensive.
--
Lyle
(for e-mail refer to http://ffdba.com/contacts.htm)
Nov 12 '05 #6
If your a certified partner or subscribe to the Action Pack, you already
have it.

--
Jerry Boone
Analytical Technologies, Inc.
http://www.antech.biz
Secure Hosting and Development Solutions for ASP, ASP.NET, SQL Server, and
Access
"DFS" <no****@nospam. com> wrote in message
news:vv******** ****@corp.super news.com...
"Lyle Fairfield" <Mi************ @Invalid.Com> wrote in message
news:Xn******** ***********@130 .133.1.4...
I have developed ADPs now for three years, in Ac2K and AcXP. I have sold
two ADP applications for > $30,000 USD, one to a large company in Atlanta, and one to a local (Ontario, Canada) school board, and numerous smaller
ones.

Initially my applications have started as accessing MS-SQL Server over the internet. For development purposes I use MSDE, or rent an SQL Server DB
from my site provider for $15 USD monthly.


You do know you can buy a Developer version of SQL Server 2000 for about
$50?
The "school board" application
above is in the process of reverting to using the Board's SQL server over their intranet. This was a planned change and is in place to comply with
their policies, and not for any performance or known security issue.

I have not experienced any major problems with ADPs. There were three
issues which I found puzzling for a brief time:

1. I could not get sub forms to link properly; I can now, but I cannot
explain what I am doing new, or differently (incidentally, I started
linking my own "sub forms" and found this to be simple and powerful);

2. I could not filter the record source for a report at run time; in MS's ADP newsgroup, someone pointed out that a report's Input Parameters could be set to a form control's value, or to a public function, and that solved that problem completely;

3. I found that ADPs seem very sensitive to the proper installation of

MDAC
(specifically ADO). If it's not A-1 they crash, with an error message

which
is not so helpful, and, AFAIK, undocumented. Finding MS's Comcheck utility allowed me to check and verify what the problem was, but this still
troubles me, as I find that IT departments can be lax about these
installations.

Typically my applications have hundreds of stored procedures, and only a
few small VBA modules. Often my VBA provides parameters for SPROCs only. I have learned just how powerful VIEWS can be, and I am especially impressed with updating them; that is one can update a VIEW which is scripted in

some
particular way, and this updates one of the source tables for the VIEW. I also note that one can use a VIEW as the source for a SPROC, combining the filtering of the one, with the immediacy of the other.

Although I don't use much VBA, in the school board application I have a
time tabling segment. As it looks at many possible solutions (factorials

in
some cases) it is very code intensive, and for this I use VBA, preferring not to have so much drain on the Server CPU (SPROC solution), when I can
distribute that drain among many client machines (VBA solution). For the
time tabling, I use batch updates. To date, these many thousands of

updates
have not resulted in any problems or errors. The VBA solution and the

SPROC
solution take about the same time to do the same thing. BTW, do you know
that one can largely duplicate one's VBA code in SPROCS because one has
IFS, CASE and LOOPS available, variables, and UDFs there?

I could not advise anyone else about whether or not to use MDBs, or ADPs. I've never used ODBC. I am by nature a problem solver, and quite

compulsive
about code. I prefer a platform that does less for me, rather than one

that
does more. I develop in ADPs and not in MDBs, and probably would not take on an MDB job, even if it were quite lucrative. I think that ADPs are very much advanced over MDBs in both concept and realization.

I write this to point out that at least one developer, (me), is both
committed to, and successful with ADPs, and has found no unsolvable
problems in working with them. He has sold ADP applications, and it seems his clients are happy.

I have been working with databases since the time of DBaseIII, about 1983 (I think). I have progressed through FoxBase, FoxPro, Clipper and ...
Access. Clipper is likely to remain for me the most useful p-coding
language with which I have ever dealt, but I do like ADPs.

I am sorry if you feel that I should have attached this to one of the
current threads on this subject. I feel that I could not have done so
without contradicting what others have said, or confronting them. And I
simply wish to state my views, based on my experience. It is that ADPs are great.

--
Lyle
(for e-mail refer to http://ffdba.com/contacts.htm)


Nov 12 '05 #7
> I write this to point out that at least one developer, (me), is both
committed to, and successful with ADPs, and has found no unsolvable
problems in working with them. He has sold ADP applications, and it seems
his clients are happy.
Lyle, that is a great way to put it, but... I would have though you could
say that (at least) 1 other developer shares in your good experiences.

The largest ADP I have done (and even still continue to build on) has billed
out at over 100k so far, talks seamlessly to and from Accounting databases
using Views, completely useable as a local project over broadband (which is
necessary for local features like automating pcAnywhere and a local modem),
and so on... no corruption and no problems. I too have not found anything I
could not do. There is no software they could have purchased that could do
anything close to what this stuff does for the money they have spent.

I would like to hear more about your complex time table solution.

For Sql Server... it's like I said in my earlier posting, working with ADP's
makes you a better Sql Server programmer. I have as many as 390 sprocs in a
single project and I am very fond of every one of them.

One thing that does bother me about Access in venereal is the amount of
memory it consumes. I destroy all non bound recordsets the moment I no
longer need them or when the form closes and you just can't seem to keep
memory down. I have noticed this on both mdb's and adp's. I have users
that never close the adp and after a couple of weeks the memory usage is no
more than it was after one hour of working (40-50mb), however it takes
forever for Access to come alive on XP after the unit rests for an hour.
The hard drive smokes for about 30 seconds as if it unloaded everything
Access had in ram. This drives some users nuts.

Actually, I think it was I who initially showed you about Input
Parameters... glad to see you found that valuable, I was exited to discover
that myself.
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=ly...igy.com&rnum=1

Good luck sir!

--
Jerry Boone
Analytical Technologies, Inc.
http://www.antech.biz
Secure Hosting and Development Solutions for ASP, ASP.NET, SQL Server, and
Access
"Lyle Fairfield" <Mi************ @Invalid.Com> wrote in message
news:Xn******** ***********@130 .133.1.4... I have developed ADPs now for three years, in Ac2K and AcXP. I have sold
two ADP applications for > $30,000 USD, one to a large company in Atlanta,
and one to a local (Ontario, Canada) school board, and numerous smaller
ones.

Initially my applications have started as accessing MS-SQL Server over the
internet. For development purposes I use MSDE, or rent an SQL Server DB
from my site provider for $15 USD monthly. The "school board" application
above is in the process of reverting to using the Board's SQL server over
their intranet. This was a planned change and is in place to comply with
their policies, and not for any performance or known security issue.

I have not experienced any major problems with ADPs. There were three
issues which I found puzzling for a brief time:

1. I could not get sub forms to link properly; I can now, but I cannot
explain what I am doing new, or differently (incidentally, I started
linking my own "sub forms" and found this to be simple and powerful);

2. I could not filter the record source for a report at run time; in MS's
ADP newsgroup, someone pointed out that a report's Input Parameters could
be set to a form control's value, or to a public function, and that solved
that problem completely;

3. I found that ADPs seem very sensitive to the proper installation of MDAC (specifically ADO). If it's not A-1 they crash, with an error message which is not so helpful, and, AFAIK, undocumented. Finding MS's Comcheck utility
allowed me to check and verify what the problem was, but this still
troubles me, as I find that IT departments can be lax about these
installations.

Typically my applications have hundreds of stored procedures, and only a
few small VBA modules. Often my VBA provides parameters for SPROCs only. I
have learned just how powerful VIEWS can be, and I am especially impressed
with updating them; that is one can update a VIEW which is scripted in some particular way, and this updates one of the source tables for the VIEW. I
also note that one can use a VIEW as the source for a SPROC, combining the
filtering of the one, with the immediacy of the other.

Although I don't use much VBA, in the school board application I have a
time tabling segment. As it looks at many possible solutions (factorials in some cases) it is very code intensive, and for this I use VBA, preferring
not to have so much drain on the Server CPU (SPROC solution), when I can
distribute that drain among many client machines (VBA solution). For the
time tabling, I use batch updates. To date, these many thousands of updates have not resulted in any problems or errors. The VBA solution and the SPROC solution take about the same time to do the same thing. BTW, do you know
that one can largely duplicate one's VBA code in SPROCS because one has
IFS, CASE and LOOPS available, variables, and UDFs there?

I could not advise anyone else about whether or not to use MDBs, or ADPs.
I've never used ODBC. I am by nature a problem solver, and quite compulsive about code. I prefer a platform that does less for me, rather than one that does more. I develop in ADPs and not in MDBs, and probably would not take
on an MDB job, even if it were quite lucrative. I think that ADPs are very
much advanced over MDBs in both concept and realization.

I write this to point out that at least one developer, (me), is both
committed to, and successful with ADPs, and has found no unsolvable
problems in working with them. He has sold ADP applications, and it seems
his clients are happy.

I have been working with databases since the time of DBaseIII, about 1983
(I think). I have progressed through FoxBase, FoxPro, Clipper and ...
Access. Clipper is likely to remain for me the most useful p-coding
language with which I have ever dealt, but I do like ADPs.

I am sorry if you feel that I should have attached this to one of the
current threads on this subject. I feel that I could not have done so
without contradicting what others have said, or confronting them. And I
simply wish to state my views, based on my experience. It is that ADPs are
great.

--
Lyle
(for e-mail refer to http://ffdba.com/contacts.htm)

Nov 12 '05 #8
> I've posted before that using CurrentProject. Connection can be many, many
times slower for ADO/VBA stuff than using a new connection based on
CurrentProject. BaseConnectionS tring. I believe it is because of the nature of the connection, Access's being optimized to do everything of course, while
the lesser one is more single task intensive.
Really? I never gave that a second thought! Good point...

In looking at the two, I can see that using the base string works directly
with the SQLOLEDB provider while the other works with the MSDataShape
provider. Interesting.

--
Jerry Boone
Analytical Technologies, Inc.
http://www.antech.biz
Secure Hosting and Development Solutions for ASP, ASP.NET, SQL Server, and
Access

"Lyle Fairfield" <Mi************ @Invalid.Com> wrote in message
news:Xn******** ***********@130 .133.1.4... "(Pete Cresswell)" <x@y.z> wrote in
news:3o******** *************** *********@4ax.c om:
RE/
There were three
issues
I dabbled in the Access 2000 version, but didn't feel comfortable enough
to try it on my new project at the time - especially after reading a
passage in an MS Access 2000 "How-To" book that said the 2000 version
was "almost ready for prime time".

I'd still like to try it - especially after hearing that you've got apps
that work over an internet connection. I'm squashing the final bugs in
a project control app that the client swore was just for his and a
couple of other local divisions - and now they're taking it national
(Philadelphia is the client's location and Chicago is their parent org)
over the corporate WAN. Works OK, but I'm dreading the day somebody
wants to use it from home over dialup.

Have you figured out a way to pre-populate combo boxes? - i.e. load them
up before a form opens so the user does not have to wait for a large
list to load. Currently I resort to having AutoExec load JET cache
tables in a work DB in C:\TEMP.

Also, do you implement disconnected edits? - i.e. user clicks an "Edit"
button, the form's controls become editable, but nothing goes into the
DB until the user clicks "Save"....a nd clicking "Cancel" repopulates the
form as it was before the user clicked "Edit"...?


Yes ... a lot. I also write HTA applications, and with them, this is the
only way, with Reset returning the form to its original state.

I've never experienced any difficulty with waits for combo boxes to

populate. But then when a combo box list's count is likely to be more than a few dozen, I will probably program this as an external popup form.

I have not used dialup connections extensively with ADPs, and would recommend something quicker. But I do know that with one small app I wrote, various
people were using the app simultaneously across the USA, as a pseudo
"whiteboard " for committee meetings and deliberations and that some of these people were on dialups in hotel rooms. As I heard no complaints, and as the committee deliberations were completed, I think it worked. But this was a
very skinny app that I wrote for this purpose only. Which gets to another
nice point about ADPs, they can be very small, less than a meg. This helps
(me at least) in that I can give bits and pieces to people in the
organization who have limited needs or permissions. They never see, or even know about the main application. And their SPs, Views etc can be specifically enabled for them, while nothing else is.

I find that with a cable modem (one server in Atlanta, another in Palo Alto), my processing is as quick as with using MSDE situated on my work machine, and in fact during development time, I have to examine my connection to know
which one I am using.

I've posted before that using CurrentProject. Connection can be many, many
times slower for ADO/VBA stuff than using a new connection based on
CurrentProject. BaseConnectionS tring. I believe it is because of the nature of the connection, Access's being optimized to do everything of course, while
the lesser one is more single task intensive.
--
Lyle
(for e-mail refer to http://ffdba.com/contacts.htm)

Nov 12 '05 #9
"Jerry Boone" <je***@antech.b iz.killspam> wrote in
news:WA******** *********@newss vr22.news.prodi gy.com:
I write this to point out that at least one developer, (me), is both
committed to, and successful with ADPs, and has found no unsolvable
problems in working with them. He has sold ADP applications, and it
seems his clients are happy.


Lyle, that is a great way to put it, but... I would have though you
could say that (at least) 1 other developer shares in your good
experiences.


I was hoping that several would say, as you are saying, "Me too!".

--
Lyle
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Nov 12 '05 #10

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