"democratix" <demokratix@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f68635bf.0409140304.37503abf@posting.google.c om...[color=blue]
>
> Has anyone had much experience with both? If so, what are your
> relative opinions of the two packages if used for the same purposes?[/color]
I don't really understand your question here? Why not compare vb.net to
those tools?
Or, why not compare your tools to Delphi?
The problem I see here is that you talking about ms-access, which is a forms
development tool, or rich UI tool for the windows desktop. Ms-access is
not even a database, but only a tools that lets you connect to a database
engine of your choice (Oracle, Sql-server, MySql, JET, etc).
The set of tools you are talking about are database servers, web
servers, both of which are not related to ms-access at all?
Ms-access is not a database, but only a tool that lets you connect
to a database of your choice.
[color=blue]
>
> - Less confusion due to separation of components.[/color]
If you mean you are using tools that are less integrated, have less
features,
and take FAR more work and developer time to do simple tasks, then I can
understand the less confusing part!
I can't imagine you find ANY degree of productivity in automating standard
business tasks on the desktop without using the "glue" or so "com" objects
that a rich windows environment gives you. Comparing web based development
tools to rich user desktop automation tools like ms-access don't make sense
all? Ms-access is a RAD tool, and good one at that. You can build a report
of customers. You can then build another report of customer invoices. So
far, we got two nice reports, and have not had to write one line of code
yet. Now, we want to display the customer info, and then display a list of
customers invoices for EACH customer. Well, you just drop in the invoices
report into the customer report. So, now, you got a sub-report. You
instantly crated a one to many join, and classic one to many report.
And again at this point I have not yet written one line of code. In fact, I
don't even have to write the sql to join the two tables, since ms-access
will set the link-master, and link-child fields for you when you drop in the
invoices report onto the customer report.
To create the same things in
PHP and MySql..you are talking about a LOT of work here (many hours).
And, in my example,
the customer info like address etc. DOES NOT repeat, and the sub-report thus
will show each invoice for the customer record. This incredible complex task
takes LESS then one minute of work. Such tasks with MySql and Php take
REAMS and REAMS of code and work to do. At min, we are talking
about something that is at least 30 to 60 times more efficient in terms of
developer time. I mean, you are talking about one of the best report
writers that money can buy. Your tools are not for writing reprots!
So, this kind of task will take you tons of work with your tools!
I mean, this is like
comparing writing some calculations in Delphi vs using Excel? The
accountant guy down the hall don't need to learn Delphi to build a
spreadsheet. So, we are taking "end" user data tools vs web
development tools..and they could not be farther apart. If you are
looking for something to compare, you need to start looking at
..net and web services.
By the way, here is an interesting discussion I just had with someone
looking for a reporting solution:
http://discuss.fogcreek.com/joelonso...&ixPost=173188
Of course...access is a hot knife through butter for the above...
I just want to point out that your comparisons of these complete different
tools does not make sense. If you are telling me how easy it is to server
out some
web pages with Apache..then you got a great point here. Apache is a
wonderful web server. In fact, it remains a market leader today.
However, tools like PHP and Apache bear NO relationship to a RAD tool like
ms-access for users manipulating data on a rich desktop on windows.
When I talked about "com", I was taking about how software and programming
talk to each other. So, how about you take that above report that slices
and dices the classic one to many join problem, and attach it as a email,
and
then allow the user to enter additional comments before you send the email?
Once again, this takes...what 2 or maybe 3 lines of code in ms-access? While
you are at it, generate a word merge..and attach that also. Once
again, with the tools you mention, you are talking REAMS and REAMS of code
(oh, yea...forgot...you are not using a rich email client). If you ever
developed
software..and the person says...I need to email that repot at the press of a
button...along with a price list..you now start to realize what automaton
means.
Again, this comparison don't make sense, and since this post is crossed over
to the php newsgroup, then again, I am sure readers there are just as
confused
also! So, to all the PHP and Apache lovers, this whole thing is not a grade
2 my languages is better then yours! (we stopped that child like stuff of
Ford vs Chevy years ago in grade school....right!).
The right horse for the right course
is what we are taking about. I would be insane to use ms-access
over PHP and Apache for a web application. ms-access is not even
in that game! Apache is real killer in this regards.
[color=blue]
> - Developer discussions on the internet include more people with
> access to the source code.[/color]
You mean code examples? There is likely as many VB examples on the web with
source code as there is PHP, in fact .likely a LOT more, and 99% of these
examples
include the source code that I seen.
[color=blue]
>
> - Less risk of future incompatibility.[/color]
Why, on what grounds do you base the above? You obviously have not been
around software enough. Just look at apache? What version are you using? I
bet you are using 1.3.x version, and not a 2.x version? yet. How come?
Apache 2.0 came out in what...mid 2002 (2 years ago!!). The failure and lack
of adoption rate of apache 2.0 is likely one of the largest software
failures in our industry. The REASON why people are sticking with 1.3.x
version is because difficulty of using their existing code library when they
move to 2.0.
(this was a big boo boo, and shows that these projects are not immune to
changing
how things works...and breaking things!).
So, what is stopping a bunch of developers at their own
whim tomorrow to deciding and modify a bunch of code that breaks
compatibility? What is stopping them? The apache folks learned this
lesson the hard way. Fact is, when companies like
MS breaks software, it cost them money! That is why
you can still run a 24 year old spread sheet on a brand new windows box.
(the 1981 version of Visi-Calc, the first spreadsheet STILL runs on a brand
new PC today). MS could ONLY sell windows NT to consumers when
they added windows 3.1, and dos compatibility. the results of the new
windows NT is called XP. MS tried for years to get consumers to use
NT, and ONLY after making it compatible with win9x, did it fly.
So, it seems to me that the stakes are FAR more serious
for commercial companies to maintain software compatibility then a bunch of
people sitting around and adding new features. There is NOTHING
stopping developers of the tools you mentioned from coming out with
a new version that breaks compatibility (my Apache 2.0 is likely the
best example of this).
[color=blue]
> Sometimes the automatic upgrade of your mdb will work, but
> often you need to make a lot of code changes to support a newer (or
> older) version of access,[/color]
Hum, the upgrade process has been good. In fact, from access 97 to access
2003, I have converted some large projects, and the applications converted
flawlessly with no problems. Further, it is in the interest of MS to make
sure
this process goes well, as it makes a difference in their bottom line. They
NEED customers. So, that is why Microsoft has released a nice upgrade tool
to
help you migration older ms-access programs to the new one.
The follow link has a cool screen shot and a link to download this free
tool here:
..
http://www.microsoft.com/office/ork/...essconvert.htm
And, by the way, that cool above application has the source code is
included.
(already learned some interesting coding ideas from that application!)
[color=blue]
> and in the worst case it's much easier to
> have two web browsers running on your machine if you need, than it is
> to have two versions of Access.[/color]
Well, in fact, with access2003, I can create access97 files. So, from a
version point of view, ms-access is very good now. I installed ms-access
a2003, and was able to delete 3 previous versions of ms-access all on one
slice. I don't think ms-access has even been better. Further, if you want,
you still can run a 10 year old version ms-access on your pc anyway.
[color=blue]
> I learn more about javascript's abilities. There are definitely some
> things html/js/php can do which access forms and vba can't (or not as
> easily), some of which seem useful, but as to what practical
> importance all these differences will make, that remains to be seen.[/color]
You mean things like sub-forms that automatically handle the parent to child
relationships? You mean things like combo boxes that allow multiple
columns, allow display of a description text, but stores the id, and also
has
nice features like "not in list" to help you add new entrees to the comb
box? How do you code a "not in list" event? Oh, ..right you don't have
that event (again...start writing reams of code!). I could go on and on
You can read up on my views on sub-forms here:
http://www.attcanada.net/%7ekallal.m...000000005.html
[color=blue]
> Oh and also there are a lot more easily accessible examples of
> creative/clever ways of using this combination of tools since it's
> what many (most?) web developers use, so you can just look at a bunch
> of websites to get ideas for how to best achieve what you want.[/color]
There is an INCREDIBLE number of ms-access examples on the web, and further
99% of them include the source code.
If you are looking at Java, then you really want to start looking at the
..net framework. Further, in terms of web services and the new software
development demands, your choice of web server don't compare to the .net
frame work of web services. So, if you are looking to compare something in
the web space of things...don't look at ms-access!...You need to be looking
at .net if you start talking about java.
I used to frequent some of the MySql discussion groups, and the quality of
help, and frequents of posts seems to have been dropping in the last year.
Perhaps it is just me, but I don't see the user community nearly as active
and helpful as it used to be. (this is my humble opinion here!!).
Right now, with ms-access we see about 1000 posts in ONE day!. That works
out to about 30,000+ posts are made and answered in one month.
I don't accept the fact that Ms-access lacks anything in terms of the
on-line user community and help. In fact, I would state that the ms-access
on line community and help resources is likely the best on the web compared
to ANY software product. I repeat ANY software product.
--
Albert D. Kallal (Access MVP)
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
pleaseNOOSpamKallal@msn.com http://www.attcanada.net/~kallal.msn 
