PHP Recruitment Advice

First of all apologies if this is off topic - it's less PHP language
than administration....

I'm trying to recruit a PHP/MySQL programmer for our UK (London) based
financial training company. The job involves working on a large
database application that comprises and spans multiple functions,
including content management, report generation, accounting functions,
CRM systems as well as a host of much smaller functions. My questions
are two fold.

1. Does anyone know of a good recruitment agency or method for
obtaining decent candidates. So far most of the applicants I've seen
have rather poor PHP skills, or (more commonly) MySQL abilities that
are really not up to scratch. So, any advice from anyone who has tried
to recruit for such a position would be well received!

2. With some trepedation, any interest here in such a job? Salary is
circa. £23,000. We have very high standards and please only apply if
you would describe yourself as particularly competent. A typical
interview question I've been asking (and most people failing) is to
describe what the 'explain' mysql keyword does and how it's used. I'm
less interested in commercial experience than I am a solid knowledge of
PHP/MySQL and the ability to hit the ground running with technical
problems. On the plus side, this is a great company to work for, with a
very fast paced style - guarantee you'll never be bored! Any
applications to itrecruit@7city.co.uk please.

Thanks

Kevin Poulton

itrecr...@7city.co.uk wrote:
<snip>[color=blue]
> 1. Does anyone know of a good recruitment agency or method for
> obtaining decent candidates. So far most of the applicants I've seen
> have rather poor PHP skills, or (more commonly) MySQL abilities that
> are really not up to scratch. So, any advice from anyone who has[/color]
tried[color=blue]
> to recruit for such a position would be well received![/color]

It's really a tough job if you're looking for the "best".
[color=blue]
> 2. With some trepedation, any interest here in such a job? Salary is
> circa. £23,000. We have very high standards and please only apply if
> you would describe yourself as particularly competent. A typical
> interview question I've been asking (and most people failing) is to
> describe what the 'explain' mysql keyword does and how it's used.[/color]

If you couldn't spot a person who knows what is EXPLAIN, probably
you should oursource your job. I'm sure, world doesn't lack such bright
people.
[color=blue]
> I'm
> less interested in commercial experience than I am a solid knowledge[/color]
of[color=blue]
> PHP/MySQL and the ability to hit the ground running with technical
> problems. On the plus side, this is a great company to work for, with[/color]
a[color=blue]
> very fast paced style - guarantee you'll never be bored! Any
> applications to itrecruit@7city.co.uk please.[/color]

I think, you mean the job is only for the local UK guys. If so, we
have lot of UK based regulars here.. phpSt.Andy, phpSt.Marcus,
phpSt.Prof.Geoff, etc. Just watch this group and shoot them a mail. Not
sure, they'll be interested though.

--
<?php echo 'Just another PHP saint'; ?>
Email: rrjanbiah-at-Y!com Blog: http://rajeshanbiah.blogspot.com/

<itrecruit@7city.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1105982781.875752.262000@f14g2000cwb.googlegr oups.com...[color=blue]
>First of all apologies if this is off topic - it's less PHP language
>than administration....[/color]
[color=blue]
>I'm trying to recruit a PHP/MySQL programmer for our UK (London) based
>financial training company. The job involves working on a large
>database application that comprises and spans multiple functions,
>including content management, report generation, accounting functions,
>CRM systems as well as a host of much smaller functions. My questions
>are two fold.[/color]
[color=blue]
>1. Does anyone know of a good recruitment agency or method for
>obtaining decent candidates. So far most of the applicants I've seen
>have rather poor PHP skills, or (more commonly) MySQL abilities that
>are really not up to scratch. So, any advice from anyone who has tried
>to recruit for such a position would be well received![/color]

People don't tend leave their current jobs unless they are unhappy or
seriously underpaid. It takes about a £ 4,000 pay rise to temp most people
to jump ship. Is your salary £ 4,000 above market rates?

itrecruit@7city.co.uk wrote:
[color=blue]
> I'm trying to recruit a PHP/MySQL programmer for our UK (London) based
> financial training company. The job involves working on a large
> 2. With some trepedation, any interest here in such a job? Salary is
> circa. Â£23,000. We have very high standards and please only apply if
> you would describe yourself as particularly competent.[/color]

Â£23K for a top end developer in London? That might get you a graduate
trainee outside London, if you're lucky. You need to offer a more realistic
package - start by doubling the salary. Then you might get what you're
looking for.

--
The email address used to post is a spam pit. Contact me at
http://www.derekfountain.org : <a
href="http://www.derekfountain.org/">Derek Fountain</a>

In article
<41ecac4a$0$16178$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>,
Derek Fountain <nospam@example.com> wrote:
[color=blue]
> itrecruit@7city.co.uk wrote:
>[color=green]
> > I'm trying to recruit a PHP/MySQL programmer for our UK (London) based
> > financial training company. The job involves working on a large
> > 2. With some trepedation, any interest here in such a job? Salary is
> > circa. £23,000. We have very high standards and please only apply if
> > you would describe yourself as particularly competent.[/color]
>
> £23K for a top end developer in London? That might get you a graduate
> trainee outside London, if you're lucky. You need to offer a more realistic
> package - start by doubling the salary. Then you might get what you're
> looking for.[/color]

Sheesh. There are still people out there who don't have a clue about
what good people are worth, apparently, despite their supposedly "high
standards".

--
DeeDee, don't press that button! DeeDee! NO! Dee...

In article <vilain-87AC34.23341317012005@news.giganews.com>,
vilain@spamcop.net says...[color=blue]
> In article
> <41ecac4a$0$16178$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>,
> Derek Fountain <nospam@example.com> wrote:
> [color=green]
> > itrecruit@7city.co.uk wrote:
> > [color=darkred]
> > > I'm trying to recruit a PHP/MySQL programmer for our UK (London) based
> > > financial training company. The job involves working on a large
> > > 2. With some trepedation, any interest here in such a job? Salary is
> > > circa. £23,000. We have very high standards and please only apply if
> > > you would describe yourself as particularly competent.[/color]
> >
> > £23K for a top end developer in London? That might get you a graduate
> > trainee outside London, if you're lucky. You need to offer a more realistic
> > package - start by doubling the salary. Then you might get what you're
> > looking for.[/color]
>
> Sheesh. There are still people out there who don't have a clue about
> what good people are worth, apparently, despite their supposedly "high
> standards".
>
> [/color]
Most recruitment agency "consultants" actually have very little idea
about the real worth of skilled people - this is simply another example
of that.

Fair comment. I should have made it clearer that we're not looking for
someone who is highly experienced (hence a 2 instead of a 4 at the
front of the salary), but I do believe it's possible to have a basic
grasp of PHP/MySQL without years of experience - my example of the
'explain' keyword was intended to illustrate the point that some who
have been applying have a level of knowledge which I personally would
describe as illiteracy in these subjects. Knowing what a left join is
isn't guru stuff, it's fundemental.

Anyway, thanks for your feedback - you are probably right and we'll
have to reappraise the role/salary.

Kevin

Derek Fountain wrote:[color=blue]
> itrecruit@7city.co.uk wrote:[/color]
<snip>[color=blue]
> £23K for a top end developer in London? That might get you a[/color]
graduate[color=blue]
> trainee outside London, if you're lucky. You need to offer a more[/color]
realistic[color=blue]
> package - start by doubling the salary. Then you might get what[/color]
you're[color=blue]
> looking for.[/color]

I think, 23K means per annum salary?? Anyway, just curious, what is
the "fair" salary for a top end developer and a fresher in London?

--
<?php echo 'Just another PHP saint'; ?>
Email: rrjanbiah-at-Y!com Blog: http://rajeshanbiah.blogspot.com/

I've been working with PHP/MySql for a little over 3 years now, and I
have yet to find the occasion to use the 'EXPLAIN' keyword. Then
again, I always knew how my tables were constructed since I created
them.
Pulling a rarely-used bit of the SQL out of your hat and then expecting
some poor young noob to parrot it out is, IMHO, a waste of your and the
prospective programmer's time.
What you should be focusing on is the 'what would you do if...' or
'how would you...' questions.
I would be more pleased to find someone who can quickly research and
then implement a solution than someone who is very knowledgeable about
one tiny aspect of the language, and unwilling or unable to deviate
from that knowledge when a problem arises.

"R. Rajesh Jeba Anbiah" <ng4rrjanbiah@rediffmail.com> wrote in message
news:1106070263.093434.262170@z14g2000cwz.googlegr oups.com...
Derek Fountain wrote:[color=blue]
> itrecruit@7city.co.uk wrote:[/color]
<snip>[color=blue]
> £23K for a top end developer in London? That might get you a[/color]
graduate[color=blue]
> trainee outside London, if you're lucky. You need to offer a more[/color]
realistic[color=blue]
> package - start by doubling the salary. Then you might get what[/color]
you're[color=blue]
> looking for.[/color]

I think, 23K means per annum salary?? Anyway, just curious, what is
the "fair" salary for a top end developer and a fresher in London?

Fresher anything from £ 15k to £ 25k.

Top End I doubt if any jobs exist as php/web development doesn't pay that
well £ 25 - £ 35k, but you are more likely to earn more with Perl/Java/C++
skill sets.

R. Rajesh Jeba Anbiah wrote:[color=blue]
> I think, 23K means per annum salary?? Anyway, just curious, what is
> the "fair" salary for a top end developer and a fresher in London?[/color]

Yes, 23,000 per year, before taxation.

A top end developer with lots of experience in pretty much any popular
language would expect about 40,000. If the job was high pressure, or
something like financials, that would go to 50K+.

When I was working in a well known company's lab nowhere near London they
were picking up the cream of graduates (as large companies tend to do) and
paying them low 20Ks, maybe mid-20Ks after a year or two. I would have
thought London weighting would make that starting point a bit higher.

Do a search of the job sites to get a better idea.

--
The email address used to post is a spam pit. Contact me at
http://www.derekfountain.org : <a
href="http://www.derekfountain.org/">Derek Fountain</a>

itrecruit@7city.co.uk wrote:
[color=blue]
> Fair comment. I should have made it clearer that we're not looking for
> someone who is highly experienced (hence a 2 instead of a 4 at the
> front of the salary), but I do believe it's possible to have a basic
> grasp of PHP/MySQL without years of experience - my example of the
> 'explain' keyword was intended to illustrate the point that some who
> have been applying have a level of knowledge which I personally would
> describe as illiteracy in these subjects. Knowing what a left join is
> isn't guru stuff, it's fundemental.[/color]

Phrases like "We have very high standards and please only apply if you would
describe yourself as particularly competent" and "I'm less interested in
commercial experience than I am a solid knowledge of PHP/MySQL" suggested
to me that you did, in fact, want experience. No one gets "solid knowledge"
or to be "particularly competent" *without* years of experience.

Just guessing Kevin, but do you or the person in charge of recruitment have
a background in academia? Expecting someone to quote back obscure sections
of the MySQL manual isn't the way to find someone who can do a job. I've
used MySQL for several years and have never once used the EXPLAIN keyword.
I've never come across a situation where query tuning has been necessary.
I'd fail your interview test and presumably be classed as being illiterate
in the subject. But with 15 years experience in software development,
including lots with scripting, databases and networking, given the criteria
you've stated I'd be confident of doing the job easily.

I'm not trying to have a go at you here. I've also had a little experience
of recruitment interviewing, and I'm aware it's a very difficult job. But
perhaps you should try to establish what you need a candidate to be able to
do, rather than testing them on dry principles of software and database
engineering?

--
The email address used to post is a spam pit. Contact me at
http://www.derekfountain.org : <a
href="http://www.derekfountain.org/">Derek Fountain</a>

itrecruit@7city.co.uk wrote:[color=blue]
>
> I'm trying to recruit a PHP/MySQL programmer for our
> UK (London) based financial training company. The job
> involves working on a large database application that
> comprises and spans multiple functions, including content
> management, report generation, accounting functions CRM
> systems as well as a host of much smaller functions. My
> questions are two fold.
>
> 1. Does anyone know of a good recruitment agency or method
> for obtaining decent candidates. So far most of the
> applicants I've seen have rather poor PHP skills, or
> (more commonly) MySQL abilities that are really not up
> to scratch. So, any advice from anyone who has tried
> to recruit for such a position would be well received![/color]

The question I usually ask in situations like this one is,
which task is easier -- getting a PHP expert and bringing
them up to date on domain knowledge or getting a domain
expert and bringing them up to date on PHP knowledge. In my
experience, the latter almost always works better. If you
have someone who is well-versed in developing Web-based CMS,
CRM and accounting applications regardless of language, they
shoud be able to learn PHP in about a week.
[color=blue]
> 2. With some trepedation, any interest here in such a job?
> Salary is circa. £23,000. We have very high standards
> and please only apply if you would describe yourself
> as particularly competent.[/color]

OK, but would you pay £23,000 a year to a domain expert?
Probably not. Why then do you believe £23,000 is appropriate
for the PHP expert?
[color=blue]
> A typical interview question I've been asking (and most
> people failing) is to describe what the 'explain' mysql
> keyword does and how it's used.[/color]

Hmm... If you know how to use SHOW, you have no use for
EXPLAIN `table`. If you routinely write

SELECT whatever
FROM tableA LEFT JOIN tableB ON tableA.id=tableB.id

instead of

SELECT whatever
FROM tableA, tableB

you have no need for EXPLAIN SELECT, either...
[color=blue]
> I'm less interested in commercial experience than I am
> a solid knowledge of PHP/MySQL and the ability to hit
> the ground running with technical problems.[/color]

Technical problems in commercial applications are often
caused by irregularities in business processes...

Cheers,
NC