accessability of javascript

I'd like to make a webpage such that when I move my mouse over a link,
description text appears below the link. eg. maybe make an input
type="text" field below the links and do something like
onhover="document.something.value='whatever'".

I'd also like to make another part of the page only show form elements
when a drop down menu is set to a particular item. I can do this
easily enough with display: none.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure how accessable doing stuff like this is.
In fact, it seems like javascript and truely accessable websites (eg.
accessable even to those who are blind and need screenreaders) just
don't go together. Is this correct or is there some way to make a
website both interactive (well, sorta) and accessable that I'm not
aware of?

re: accessability of javascript

yawnmoth wrote:[color=blue]
> I'd like to make a webpage such that when I move my mouse over a link,
> description text appears below the link. eg. maybe make an input
> type="text" field below the links and do something like
> onhover="document.something.value='whatever'".[/color]

Search the archives for 'tooltip', there are many posts on the subject.

[color=blue]
> I'd also like to make another part of the page only show form elements
> when a drop down menu is set to a particular item. I can do this
> easily enough with display: none.
>
> Unfortunately, I'm not sure how accessable doing stuff like this is.
> In fact, it seems like javascript and truely accessable websites (eg.
> accessable even to those who are blind and need screenreaders) just
> don't go together. Is this correct or is there some way to make a
> website both interactive (well, sorta) and accessable that I'm not
> aware of?[/color]

'JavaScript' and 'accessible' aren't mutually exclusive.

Make the website fully accessible first, then add script second to
enhance it for those who can take advantage of the scripting support
provided.


--
Rob

re: accessability of javascript

yawnmoth wrote:[color=blue]
> ... such that when I move my mouse over ...[/color]
<snip>[color=blue]
> Unfortunately, I'm not sure how accessable doing
> stuff like this is.[/color]
<snip>

One of the things that you will have to think about when creating
accessible web pages is how the user may be interacting with their
computer. They may not be using a mouse at all (through choice or an
inability to successfully manipulate one).

Richard.

re: accessability of javascript

"yawnmoth" <terra1024@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1147672090.006328.47480@y43g2000cwc.googlegro ups.com...[color=blue]
> I'd like to make a webpage such that when I move my mouse over a link,
> description text appears below the link. eg. maybe make an input
> type="text" field below the links and do something like
> onhover="document.something.value='whatever'".[/color]

Why not just use the title attribute? Simpler and accessible.
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/links.html#h-12.1.4

re: accessability of javascript

RobG wrote:[color=blue]
> <snip>
> 'JavaScript' and 'accessible' aren't mutually exclusive.
>
> Make the website fully accessible first, then add script second to
> enhance it for those who can take advantage of the scripting support
> provided.[/color]
Would a good rule of thumb maybe be that if the website can be used
without javascript than it is accessable? Or do screenreaders run
javascript?

re: accessability of javascript

yawnmoth wrote:
[color=blue]
> RobG wrote:
>[color=green]
>><snip>
>>'JavaScript' and 'accessible' aren't mutually exclusive.
>>
>>Make the website fully accessible first, then add script second to
>>enhance it for those who can take advantage of the scripting support
>>provided.[/color]
>
> Would a good rule of thumb maybe be that if the website can be used
> without javascript than it is accessable? Or do screenreaders run
> javascript?
>[/color]
What about a website that requiers the use of JavaScript in order to
work properly?

re: accessability of javascript

yawnmoth wrote:
[color=blue]
> RobG wrote:[color=green]
>> <snip>
>> 'JavaScript' and 'accessible' aren't mutually exclusive.
>>
>> Make the website fully accessible first, then add script second to
>> enhance it for those who can take advantage of the scripting support
>> provided.[/color]
> Would a good rule of thumb maybe be that if the website can be used
> without javascript than it is accessable?[/color]

There are other factors to accessibility, but that would be a good
indicator.
[color=blue]
> Or do screenreaders run javascript?[/color]

Maybe.


PointedEars
--
When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then
whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.
-- Sherlock Holmes in Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's
"The Blanched Soldier"

re: accessability of javascript

Warren Sarle wrote:
[color=blue]
> "yawnmoth" <terra1024@yahoo.com> wrote in message[color=green]
>> I'd like to make a webpage such that when I move my mouse over a link,
>> description text appears below the link. eg. maybe make an input
>> type="text" field below the links and do something like
>> onhover="document.something.value='whatever'".[/color]
>
> Why not just use the title attribute? Simpler and accessible.
> http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/links.html#h-12.1.4[/color]

It is simpler. However, its limitations are that it requires a pointing
device and the displayed tooltip text length is limited, if the attribute
value is even displayed as a tooltip. So I suggest to use both to be
pretty sure.


PointedEars
--
Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security,
will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.
-- Benjamin Franklin

re: accessability of javascript

Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn said the following on 5/22/2006 11:48 AM:[color=blue]
> Warren Sarle wrote:
>[color=green]
>> "yawnmoth" <terra1024@yahoo.com> wrote in message[color=darkred]
>>> I'd like to make a webpage such that when I move my mouse over a link,
>>> description text appears below the link. eg. maybe make an input
>>> type="text" field below the links and do something like
>>> onhover="document.something.value='whatever'".[/color]
>> Why not just use the title attribute? Simpler and accessible.
>> http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/links.html#h-12.1.4[/color]
>
> It is simpler. However, its limitations are that it requires a pointing
> device and the displayed tooltip text length is limited, if the attribute
> value is even displayed as a tooltip. So I suggest to use both to be
> pretty sure.[/color]

And even that won't insure that it gets displayed.

--
Randy
comp.lang.javascript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq & newsgroup weekly
Javascript Best Practices - http://www.JavascriptToolbox.com/bestpractices/

re: accessability of javascript

Randy Webb wrote:[color=blue]
> Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn said the following on 5/22/2006 11:48 AM:[color=green]
> > Warren Sarle wrote:
> >[color=darkred]
> >> "yawnmoth" <terra1024@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >>> I'd like to make a webpage such that when I move my mouse over a link,
> >>> description text appears below the link. eg. maybe make an input
> >>> type="text" field below the links and do something like
> >>> onhover="document.something.value='whatever'".
> >> Why not just use the title attribute? Simpler and accessible.
> >> http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/links.html#h-12.1.4[/color]
> >
> > It is simpler. However, its limitations are that it requires a pointing
> > device and the displayed tooltip text length is limited, if the attribute
> > value is even displayed as a tooltip. So I suggest to use both to be
> > pretty sure.[/color]
>
> And even that won't insure that it gets displayed.[/color]

I guess he's coming, the fate man of c.l.j. : deaf and blind user on
Lynx :-))

:-|
JavaScript was created to /improve/ accessibility so I'm finding rather
ridiculous to put them into some kind of opposition.
That again like with "cross browser support": without strictly defining
what browsers are included (and excluding any others) they just taking
a broad range of exeptions from wherever - whatever sounds stronger at
this given moment.

re: accessability of javascript

VK said the following on 5/22/2006 12:29 PM:[color=blue]
> Randy Webb wrote:[color=green]
>> Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn said the following on 5/22/2006 11:48 AM:[color=darkred]
>>> Warren Sarle wrote:
>>>
>>>> "yawnmoth" <terra1024@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>> I'd like to make a webpage such that when I move my mouse over a link,
>>>>> description text appears below the link. eg. maybe make an input
>>>>> type="text" field below the links and do something like
>>>>> onhover="document.something.value='whatever'".
>>>> Why not just use the title attribute? Simpler and accessible.
>>>> http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/links.html#h-12.1.4
>>> It is simpler. However, its limitations are that it requires a pointing
>>> device and the displayed tooltip text length is limited, if the attribute
>>> value is even displayed as a tooltip. So I suggest to use both to be
>>> pretty sure.[/color]
>> And even that won't insure that it gets displayed.[/color]
>
> I guess he's coming, the fate man of c.l.j. : deaf and blind user on
> Lynx :-))[/color]

No, not a deaf and blind user on Lynx, just a user that has a cellphone
with a browser but no mouse and no scripting.
[color=blue]
> :-|
> JavaScript was created to /improve/ accessibility so I'm finding rather
> ridiculous to put them into some kind of opposition.[/color]

I never said differently.
[color=blue]
> That again like with "cross browser support": without strictly defining
> what browsers are included (and excluding any others) they just taking
> a broad range of exeptions from wherever - whatever sounds stronger at
> this given moment.[/color]

You should spend about a week of reading mine and TL's posts and then
you might begin to understand..

--
Randy
comp.lang.javascript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq & newsgroup weekly
Javascript Best Practices - http://www.JavascriptToolbox.com/bestpractices/

re: accessability of javascript

Randy Webb wrote:
[color=blue]
> Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn said the following on 5/22/2006 11:48 AM:[color=green]
>> Warren Sarle wrote:[color=darkred]
>>> "yawnmoth" <terra1024@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>> I'd like to make a webpage such that when I move my mouse over a link,
>>>> description text appears below the link. eg. maybe make an input
>>>> type="text" field below the links and do something like
>>>> onhover="document.something.value='whatever'".
>>> Why not just use the title attribute? Simpler and accessible.
>>> http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/links.html#h-12.1.4[/color]
>> It is simpler. However, its limitations are that it requires a pointing
>> device and the displayed tooltip text length is limited, if the attribute
>> value is even displayed as a tooltip. So I suggest to use both to be
>> pretty sure.[/color]
>
> And even that won't insure that it gets displayed.[/color]

It is likely, though, for the corresponding meaning of "to display". The
value of the `title' attribute may be not displayed as a tooltip, but a
reasonable UA that conforms to accessibility standards should allow its
users to "see" the `title' attribute value. Because, for example, there
are accessibility standards that _require_ the `table' element's `title'
attribute to be set for conformance, so that users can "see" at a glance
what the table is about.


PointedEars
--
Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security,
will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.
-- Benjamin Franklin

re: accessability of javascript

Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn said the following on 5/22/2006 12:54 PM:[color=blue]
> Randy Webb wrote:
>[color=green]
>> Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn said the following on 5/22/2006 11:48 AM:[color=darkred]
>>> Warren Sarle wrote:
>>>> "yawnmoth" <terra1024@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>> I'd like to make a webpage such that when I move my mouse over a link,
>>>>> description text appears below the link. eg. maybe make an input
>>>>> type="text" field below the links and do something like
>>>>> onhover="document.something.value='whatever'".
>>>> Why not just use the title attribute? Simpler and accessible.
>>>> http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/links.html#h-12.1.4
>>> It is simpler. However, its limitations are that it requires a pointing
>>> device and the displayed tooltip text length is limited, if the attribute
>>> value is even displayed as a tooltip. So I suggest to use both to be
>>> pretty sure.[/color]
>> And even that won't insure that it gets displayed.[/color]
>
> It is likely, though, for the corresponding meaning of "to display". The
> value of the `title' attribute may be not displayed as a tooltip, but a
> reasonable UA that conforms to accessibility standards should allow its
> users to "see" the `title' attribute value.[/color]

Then that reasonable UA should display the title attribute when focused
by means other than a mouse. And I don't want to get into an
argument/discussion about what is "focused" and what isn't.

How does a UA know to display the title attribute if there is no mouse
pointer?
[color=blue]
> Because, for example, there are accessibility standards that _require_ the
> `table' element's `title' attribute to be set for conformance, so that users
> can "see" at a glance what the table is about.[/color]

And every UA follows every standard? I do not even know of one, much
less more, that follow all the standards.

--
Randy
comp.lang.javascript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq & newsgroup weekly
Javascript Best Practices - http://www.JavascriptToolbox.com/bestpractices/

re: accessability of javascript

Randy Webb wrote:
[color=blue]
> Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn said the following on 5/22/2006 12:54 PM:[color=green]
>> Randy Webb wrote:[color=darkred]
>>> Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn said the following on 5/22/2006 11:48 AM:
>>>> Warren Sarle wrote:
>>>>> "yawnmoth" <terra1024@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> [display description of a hyperlink as content of another element]
>>>>> Why not just use the title attribute? Simpler and accessible.
>>>>> http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/links.html#h-12.1.4
>>>> It is simpler. However, its limitations are that it requires a
>>>> pointing device and the displayed tooltip text length is limited, if
>>>> the attribute value is even displayed as a tooltip. So I suggest to
>>>> use both to be pretty sure.
>>> And even that won't insure that it gets displayed.[/color]
>> It is likely, though, for the corresponding meaning of "to display". The
>> value of the `title' attribute may be not displayed as a tooltip, but a
>> reasonable UA that conforms to accessibility standards should allow its[/color][/color]
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^[color=blue][color=green]
>> users to "see" the `title' attribute value.[/color][/color]
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^[color=blue]
> Then that reasonable UA should display the title attribute when focused
> by means other than a mouse.[/color]

That is what I said.
[color=blue]
> [...]
> How does a UA know to display the title attribute if there is no mouse
> pointer?[/color]

The `title' attribute _value_ can be displayed when the corresponding
element is focused. That requires that the element can be focused somehow
without a pointing device.
[color=blue][color=green]
>> Because, for example, there are accessibility standards that _require_
>> the `table' element's `title' attribute to be set for conformance, so
>> that users can "see" at a glance what the table is about.[/color]
>
> And every UA follows every standard?[/color]

Wrong question, and no. However, a UA that does not follow this part of
accessibility standards, probably is not used (by handicapped people).
[color=blue]
> I do not even know of one, much less more, that follow all the standards.[/color]

You are confusing language/API standards and accessibility standards.
The latter are even enforced by national legislation.


PointedEars
--
Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a diseased mind.
-- Terry Pratchett