To Frame or not to Frame

OK, I don't like frames either.

That said, they do some things that I don't know how to do any other way.

I edit a magazine at www.mississippireview.com that i just changed by
putting an INLINE FRAME in a table with an constant top and bottom.

Anyway, I wanted to stabilize the page and drop the text (there are about
500 stories, poems, essays, etc online in MR) into this changing hole in the
middle, as if it were on a "page."

So far it doesn't look awful in IE, doesn't seem to work at all in Netscape,
and has limited success in Opera 7.

Can anyone tell me another way to accomplish what's already there that (a)
works in all browsers, (b) eliminates scroll bar and replaces with a page
turning device (not in the sense of graphic page turn, but a replacement of
first unit of text with next unit) without marking up the original text
(remember there are 500 or more stories/poems etc.; I don't want to do new
markup on 500 stories).

In the best cast I'd like to replace the scroll bar with some other page
changing mechanism, like a simple up/down arrow set at the bottom of the
frame. In the absolute best case I'd have two frames, side by side (like an
open book), with text flowing from one to the next, and text replaced via a
left/right arrow combination. But for the moment, if I can just get rid of
the scroll bar and still have the access to the remainer of the text, well,
I'll be temporarily satisfied.

Anyway, please take a look and see what you think? I'd appreciate any
advice.

flat

Sorry--you're probably using Netscape or Mozilla. Netscape doesn't seem to
show anything but the top and bottom bars--no hole, no page, no text, no
nothing in between. If you look at it with IE or Opera 7 you'll see the
intended effect, so far.

What percentage of users presently use netscape, mozilla, and opera these
days? still plenty, i think, but a minority. but this is why i want to know
how to do this so that it "works in all browsers" as in orig msg.

thanks, also, for the link

flat

"Brian" <brian@wfcr.org.invalid-remove-this-part> wrote in message
news:JU6Na.31247$926.2985@sccrnsc03...[color=blue]
> Flat Earth wrote:[color=green]
> > OK, I don't like frames either.[/color]
>
> Without reading on, you know a "but" is coming.
>[color=green]
> > That said, they do some things that I don't know how to do any other[/color][/color]
way.[color=blue]
>
> There it is!
>[color=green]
> > I edit a magazine at www.mississippireview.com that i just changed by
> > putting an INLINE FRAME in a table with an constant top and bottom
> >
> > Anyway, I wanted to stabilize the page and drop the text (there are[/color][/color]
about[color=blue][color=green]
> > 500 stories, poems, essays, etc online in MR) into this changing hole in[/color][/color]
the[color=blue][color=green]
> > middle, as if it were on a "page."[/color]
>
> I didn't see any story there, so I'm not sure what you're after.
>[color=green]
> > Can anyone tell me another way to accomplish what's already there that[/color][/color]
(a)[color=blue][color=green]
> > works in all browsers, (b) eliminates scroll bar and replaces with a[/color][/color]
page[color=blue][color=green]
> > turning device (not in the sense of graphic page turn, but a replacement[/color][/color]
of[color=blue][color=green]
> > first unit of text with next unit) without marking up the original text[/color]
>
> Does this help?
>
> <url: http://www.htmlhelp.com/faq/html/des...l#include-file >
>
> --
> Brian
> follow the directions in my address to email me
>[/color]

Darin M-

Sorry, prefer top.
When I use Opera 7 I see the frame fine. Try again, pls and report?
Is there any way to do what I am trying to do w/o using frames?
I would be pleased to not use frames if I knew another way to do this w/o
re-marking up the 500 pages of the site.

Thanks.

flat

"Darin McGrew" <mcgrew@stanfordalumni.org> wrote in message
news:be372b$dj$1@blue.rahul.net...[color=blue]
> A: It's backwards and makes discussions harder to follow:
> http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/usenet/brox.html
>
> Flat Earth <fbx2@hotmail.com> wrote:[color=green][color=darkred]
> >>> I edit a magazine at www.mississippireview.com that i just changed by
> >>> putting an INLINE FRAME in a table with an constant top and bottom[/color][/color]
>
> "Brian" <brian@wfcr.org.invalid-remove-this-part> wrote:[color=green][color=darkred]
> >> I didn't see any story there, so I'm not sure what you're after.[/color][/color]
>
> Flat Earth <fbx2@hotmail.com> wrote:[color=green]
> > Sorry--you're probably using Netscape or Mozilla. Netscape doesn't seem[/color][/color]
to[color=blue][color=green]
> > show anything but the top and bottom bars--no hole, no page, no text, no
> > nothing in between. If you look at it with IE or Opera 7 you'll see the
> > intended effect, so far.[/color]
>
> FWIW, with Opera 7, I saw no inline frames.
>
> Anyway, I quickly found content pages that were orphaned, with no links to
> the rest of the site. Inline frames have all the problems of normal frames
> <http://www.htmlhelp.com/faq/html/frames.html#frame-problems> plus a few[/color]
of[color=blue]
> their own.
>
> Q. What's wrong with Text Over, Fullquote Under (TOFU) posting?
> --
> Darin McGrew, mcgrew@stanfordalumni.org, http://www.rahul.net/mcgrew/
> Web Design Group, darin@htmlhelp.com, http://www.HTMLHelp.com/
>
> "If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging." - Will Rogers[/color]

DISREGARD THIS MSG/THREAD. I HAVE RETURNED TO PREV NON-FRAMES VERSION.

Flat Earth wrote:
[color=blue]
> Sorry, prefer top.[/color]

The great majority of the community you are _asking_for_free_help_from_
prefer to read bottom posted, properly trimmed messages.

--
David Dorward http://david.us-lot.org/
Redesign in progress: http://stone.thecoreworlds.net/
Microsoft announces IE is dead (so upgrade):
http://minutillo.com/steve/weblog/20...ces-ie-is-dead

In article <IqqcnTpz79o1rZiiXTWJig@comcast.com>, fbx2@hotmail.com
says...[color=blue]
> Darin M-
>
> Sorry, prefer top.[/color]
'Bye then.

So _you're_ the 8th dwarf, Snotty, about whom so much has been written.
Hello there! And many thanks to you for the extraordinary effort.

"PeterMcC" <peter@mccourt.org.uk> wrote in message
news:OSbNa.46932$xd5.2397584@stones.force9.net...[color=blue]
> Flat Earth wrote:[color=green]
> > DISREGARD THIS MSG/THREAD. I HAVE RETURNED TO PREV NON-FRAMES
> > VERSION.[/color]
>
> We'll take that as a thanks then, though why you have to shout it - and[/color]
why[color=blue]
> you should tell everyone what they should or shouldn't disregard - is a[/color]
bit[color=blue]
> of a puzzle.
>
> --
> PeterMcC
> If you feel that any of the above is incorrect,
> inappropriate or offensive in any way,
> please ignore it and accept my apologies.
>[/color]

In post <IqqcnTpz79o1rZiiXTWJig@comcast.com>
Flat Earth said...

[posting style]
[color=blue]
> Sorry, prefer top.[/color]

thanks for letting me know not to waste my time helping you

--
brucie a. blackford. 04/July/2003 07:59:47 pm kilo.
http://loser.brucies.com/

Flat Earth wrote:[color=blue]
> So _you're_ the 8th dwarf, Snotty, about whom so much has been written.
> Hello there! And many thanks to you for the extraordinary effort.[/color]

Ah well, a flat-earther. What can you expect?

--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me

Caveat: I normally spend my time in the msnews NG's; this attracts a range
of people ranging from fully signed-up Redmond clones to Open Source Trolls.
You get allsorts!

However, since some of my queries have been regarding pure HTML/CSS rather
than MS's interpretation via IE or ASP, I've been coming to these NGs for a
while, and quite frankly, it's helpful getting a more balanced technical
viewpoint rather than MS spin.

However, the thing that struck me most when I came across here was
overwhelmingly negative atmosphere. There are a few gems here, but these
people seem to be outnumbered by a clique of unpleasant, unhelpful and
pompous boors. Rarely do you see a thread stay on topic, rarely do you see a
thread without someone sneering and passing snide comments.

Bearing in mind the fact that ANYBODY can have a go at HTML/CSS without need
for special and expensive s/w, therefore you are bound to attract far more
newbies who dont have much in the way of technical skills, nor knowledge of
NG etiquette. Rather than a welcome intro, these get slated unless they
follow the wishes of said clique!

FRAMES: Yes, there are good reasons to avoid frames. But some people still
use them. Get over it. By all means, point out the benefits of the
alternatives, and offer helpful suggestions. But don't simply throw scorn at
them.

TOP-POSTING: I'm afraid the etiquette varies from NG to NG, but if many
people here prefer bottom-posting or quoting, fair play to you. However,
there are pros and cons to each approach, and there are no rights and
wrongs... Personally I use all three depending on the situation. I certainly
dont intend to sample every NG I visit, and then try and remember the
preferences of each individual. Yet at least 3 people replied to this post,
to say 'We are not going to help you unless your preferences match ours!'.
While I'll defend their right to refrain from helping (petty though I think
it is), I'm bound to point out that they dont all need to shout about it.
This waste of bandwidth does go against established NG etiquette.

In most technical NG's I visit, the biggest crime is changing you post date
to keep it at the top of the NG in many news readers. If somebody does this,
I ignore them. Often I post something to tell them that it's not good form.
Spam gets ignored also. If somebody asks a question post 4 hrs earlier, I
tell them to look at that post.

Beyond that, if they do something that I dont like, I simply chose whether
or not to help them.

I realise I'm wasting my breath here, and that nothing will change, but you
never know...
And quite frankly, I'd be tempted to go elsewhere if there were anywhere
else to go, but I guess I'm stuck here.

Chris

PS. Dont bother replying. If you agree, good - keep up the good work. If you
don't, I don't care; you are not going to convince me otherwise.

[color=blue]
> I'm not sure what prompts your unpleasantness but I hope to meet you under
> better circumstances next time.[/color]

Same here. No harm, no foul.

Cheers--

Flat Earth wrote:[color=blue][color=green]
>> I'm not sure what prompts your unpleasantness but I hope to meet you
>> under better circumstances next time.[/color]
>
> Same here. No harm, no foul.
>
> Cheers--[/color]

Cool :)
--
PeterMcC
If you feel that any of the above is incorrect,
inappropriate or offensive in any way,
please ignore it and accept my apologies.

CJM wrote:[color=blue]
> Caveat: I normally spend my time in the msnews NG's; this attracts a range
> of people ranging from fully signed-up Redmond clones to Open Source Trolls.
> You get allsorts![/color]

Indeed.
[color=blue]
> However, since some of my queries have been regarding pure HTML/CSS rather
> than MS's interpretation via IE or ASP, I've been coming to these NGs for a
> while, and quite frankly, it's helpful getting a more balanced technical
> viewpoint rather than MS spin.[/color]

I'm glad you find this forum. So do I. I'm sure most regulars feel
the same, else why would they participate?
[color=blue]
> However, the thing that struck me most when I came across here was
> overwhelmingly negative atmosphere. There are a few gems here, but these
> people seem to be outnumbered by a clique of unpleasant, unhelpful and
> pompous boors. Rarely do you see a thread stay on topic, rarely do you
> see a thread without someone sneering and passing snide comments.[/color]

Thanks for doing your part to contribute to the negative atmosphere
with this broadside.
[color=blue]
> FRAMES: Yes, there are good reasons to avoid frames. But some people still
> use them. Get over it. By all means, point out the benefits of the
> alternatives, and offer helpful suggestions.[/color]

We did. Did you even *read* the thread? Or simply jump at an
opportunity to vent about what you perceive as an unpleasant
atmosphere? Following is the message id of my first reply to the op:

message id: JU6Na.31247$926.2985@sccrnsc03
<url:
http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&...85%40sccrnsc03[color=blue]
>[/color]
[color=blue]
> But don't simply throw scorn at them.[/color]

Read the thread please.
[color=blue]
> TOP-POSTING: I'm afraid the etiquette varies from NG to NG, but if many
> people here prefer bottom-posting or quoting, fair play to you. However,
> there are pros and cons to each approach, and there are no rights and
> wrongs... Personally I use all three depending on the situation. I certainly
> dont intend to sample every NG I visit, and then try and remember the
> preferences of each individual. Yet at least 3 people replied to this post,
> to say 'We are not going to help you unless your preferences match ours!'.
> While I'll defend their right to refrain from helping (petty though I think
> it is), I'm bound to point out that they dont all need to shout about it.[/color]

The first message in this thread which pointed out that we don't like
TOFU posting was humorous; I saw no shouting in it. I did see a terse
response from the OP that seemed rather impolite to me. If things
devolved from there, assign blame where it's due.
[color=blue]
> I realise I'm wasting my breath here, and that nothing will change, but you
> never know...[/color]
[color=blue]
> And quite frankly, I'd be tempted to go elsewhere if there were anywhere
> else to go, but I guess I'm stuck here.[/color]

Poor thing.
[color=blue]
> PS. Dont bother replying. If you agree, good - keep up the good work. If you
> don't, I don't care; you are not going to convince me otherwise.[/color]

I don't care that you don't want me to reply. While you might feel
otherwise, this is an open forum. We'll reply or not, your
preferences notwithstanding.

--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me