headings headings headings

I'm working on yet another online editor, this allows non html savy
people to add "blocks" that may contain paragraphs, headings, lists and
images to the editable part of a template. The editable part of the page
tends to be simple and homegeneous (each "block" tends to have similar
content) as it's just a part of the page (the template are complex). The
pages are commercial rather than educational.

How many types of headings does a simple page need?

Does a page that has lesser headings need an h1?

What about just using h3's as a general purpose heading? h2?

I don't have a good explanantion of when to use h4, instead of h3, or
for that matter of when to use h6 (I don't think I've ever used it).

If you were doing this, would you offer all heading choices (and how
would you explain which to use), or maybe just h3? It seems to me that
quite a mess could be made with too many choices.

Jeff

re: headings headings headings

Jeff Thies <cyberjeff@sprintmail.com> writes:[color=blue]
> How many types of headings does a simple page need?
>
> Does a page that has lesser headings need an h1?[/color]

As the page title, yes.
[color=blue]
> What about just using h3's as a general purpose heading? h2?[/color]

There's no such thing as a general purpose heading. It all depends on
the context.
[color=blue]
> I don't have a good explanantion of when to use h4, instead of h3, or
> for that matter of when to use h6 (I don't think I've ever used it).[/color]

I've never used <h6> outside of examples. <h5> I've needed on a few
rare occasions. <h1-4> get used a lot.
[color=blue]
> If you were doing this, would you offer all heading choices (and how
> would you explain which to use), or maybe just h3? It seems to me that
> quite a mess could be made with too many choices.[/color]

The headings form a structure, so
h1
h2
h2
h3
h4
h3
h3
h4
h4
h4
h5
h5
h4
h2
h3
h3
for example, and you need to get people to write headings to the
structure, so if the previous heading was a h3, it can only be
followed by a 'child' h4, a 'sibling' h3, or an 'ancestor' h2 or h1
(except there should only be a single h1).

If you have a copy of MS Word, or a similar word processor, switch to
outline mode and play around - tab to go down a level, shift-tab to go
up a level. You need a heading structure a bit like that.

How to write a neat interface to do this is tricky, but you could look
at something like Zope's structured text for one example.

--
Chris

re: headings headings headings

I've seen suggestions that Search Engines take more note of H1 headings, but
I've always had a habit of using H3 because they look nicer.

I realised a while back that this is silly, and that the way forward is to
use CSS to make your H1 headings look how you want them to look!

--
######################
## PH, London ##
######################

"Jeff Thies" <cyberjeff@sprintmail.com> wrote in message
news:3F0D6784.F52A46A1@sprintmail.com...[color=blue]
> I'm working on yet another online editor, this allows non html savy
> people to add "blocks" that may contain paragraphs, headings, lists and
> images to the editable part of a template. The editable part of the page
> tends to be simple and homegeneous (each "block" tends to have similar
> content) as it's just a part of the page (the template are complex). The
> pages are commercial rather than educational.
>
> How many types of headings does a simple page need?
>
> Does a page that has lesser headings need an h1?
>
> What about just using h3's as a general purpose heading? h2?
>
> I don't have a good explanantion of when to use h4, instead of h3, or
> for that matter of when to use h6 (I don't think I've ever used it).
>
> If you were doing this, would you offer all heading choices (and how
> would you explain which to use), or maybe just h3? It seems to me that
> quite a mess could be made with too many choices.
>
> Jeff[/color]

re: headings headings headings

"Philip Herlihy" <foof8500@REMOVEherlihy.eu.com> writes:[color=blue]
> I've seen suggestions that Search Engines take more note of H1 headings, but
> I've always had a habit of using H3 because they look nicer.
>
> I realised a while back that this is silly, and that the way forward is to
> use CSS to make your H1 headings look how you want them to look![/color]

Yep. You should probably only have <h1> a page, though, and use <h2>
for sub-headings. It wouldn't surprise me if search engines taking
more notice of <h1> also penalised excessive use of it.

--
Chris

re: headings headings headings

> > I realised a while back that this is silly, and that the way forward is to[color=blue][color=green]
> > use CSS to make your H1 headings look how you want them to look![/color]
>
> Yep. You should probably only have <h1> a page, though, and use <h2>
> for sub-headings. It wouldn't surprise me if search engines taking
> more notice of <h1> also penalised excessive use of it.[/color]

I've been looking at this:

http://www.cwru.edu/help/introHTML/TCh3.html
(Eric Meyer page)

Note the lack of h2 and useage of h3.

That makes me wonder about strict heading hierarchy...

Jeff
[color=blue]
>
> --
> Chris[/color]

re: headings headings headings

Jeff Thies wrote:
[color=blue]
> I've been looking at this:
> http://www.cwru.edu/help/introHTML/TCh3.html
> Note the lack of h2 and useage of h3.[/color]

....and it uses tables for layout, spacer gifs, and doesn't validate.

It isn't an ideal example of HTML.

--
David Dorward http://david.us-lot.org/
Redesign in progress: http://stone.thecoreworlds.net/
Microsoft announces IE is dead (so upgrade):
http://minutillo.com/steve/weblog/20...ces-ie-is-dead

re: headings headings headings

<snip>

Comments interspersed...[color=blue]
>
> The headings form a structure, so
> h1
> h2
> h2
> h3
> h4
> h3
> h3
> h4
> h4
> h4
> h5
> h5
> h4
> h2
> h3
> h3
> for example, and you need to get people to write headings to the
> structure, so if the previous heading was a h3, it can only be
> followed by a 'child' h4, a 'sibling' h3, or an 'ancestor' h2 or h1
> (except there should only be a single h1).[/color]

This makes a lot of sense, but I see few commercial pages that nested.[color=blue]
>
> If you have a copy of MS Word, or a similar word processor, switch to
> outline mode and play around - tab to go down a level, shift-tab to go
> up a level. You need a heading structure a bit like that.
>
> How to write a neat interface to do this is tricky, but you could look
> at something like Zope's structured text for one example.[/color]

I've done just that:

http://www.zope.org/Documentation/Articles/STX

This is fairly typical of what a commercial page would look like.

Note that there is no <h1>, <h2>'s are used only in the navigation and
main content of the page contains only <h3>'s

Is that bad structure? Where would an <h1> be used on this page?

I'm having a bit of a hard time putting theory into practice!

Cheers,
Jeff
[color=blue]
>
> --
> Chris[/color]

re: headings headings headings

David Dorward wrote:[color=blue]
>
> Jeff Thies wrote:
>[color=green]
> > I've been looking at this:
> > http://www.cwru.edu/help/introHTML/TCh3.html
> > Note the lack of h2 and useage of h3.[/color]
>
> ...and it uses tables for layout, spacer gifs, and doesn't validate.[/color]

Hmmm, I hadn't looked at that. You know Eric Meyer carries a lot of
clout over in CIWAHStysheets. The book helps.[color=blue]
>
> It isn't an ideal example of HTML.[/color]

I really could use a *simple* to understand "tutorial" of basic HTML. Do
you know of something like that? Something that complete newbies can
follow and get right.

Cheers,
Jeff
[color=blue]
>
> --
> David Dorward http://david.us-lot.org/
> Redesign in progress: http://stone.thecoreworlds.net/
> Microsoft announces IE is dead (so upgrade):
> http://minutillo.com/steve/weblog/20...ces-ie-is-dead[/color]

re: headings headings headings

Jeff Thies <cyberjeff@sprintmail.com> writes:[color=blue][color=green]
> > for example, and you need to get people to write headings to the
> > structure, so if the previous heading was a h3, it can only be
> > followed by a 'child' h4, a 'sibling' h3, or an 'ancestor' h2 or h1
> > (except there should only be a single h1).[/color]
>
> This makes a lot of sense, but I see few commercial pages that nested.[/color]

Mostly headings if used at all seem to be chosen for visual effect.
Not particularly nice if you're trying to get document structure from
them.
[color=blue][color=green]
> > How to write a neat interface to do this is tricky, but you could look
> > at something like Zope's structured text for one example.[/color]
>
> I've done just that:
>
> http://www.zope.org/Documentation/Articles/STX
>
> This is fairly typical of what a commercial page would look like.[/color]

Yep, i.e. not very well structured.
[color=blue]
> Note that there is no <h1>, <h2>'s are used only in the navigation and
> main content of the page contains only <h3>'s[/color]

Yep, despite structured text giving good header structure (look at the
examples in 'using indentation'), this page doesn't give an example of
it. It's got the heading for the first section as the author's
name...oh dear. Actually *using* structured text gives good headings,
though.
[color=blue]
> Is that bad structure? Where would an <h1> be used on this page?[/color]

No headings till you get to the white 'content area'.

<h1>Structured Text</h1>
<div>By Paul Everitt</div>
<p>...</p>
<p>...</p>
<h2>Structured Text Basics</h2>
<p>...</p>
<h2>Using indentation</h2>
<p>...</p>
etc.
is how I'd do it with logical heading order.

--
Chris

re: headings headings headings

Jeff Thies wrote:
[color=blue]
> I've been looking at this:
>
> http://www.cwru.edu/help/introHTML/TCh3.html
> (Eric Meyer page)
>
> Note the lack of h2 and useage of h3.
>
> That makes me wonder about strict heading hierarchy...[/color]

I've been reading about the Hitler years. That makes me wonder about
genocide being wrong...

--
Mark.
http://www.tranchant.freeserve.co.uk/

re: headings headings headings

Jeff Thies wrote:
[color=blue]
> I really could use a *simple* to understand "tutorial" of basic HTML. Do
> you know of something like that? Something that complete newbies can
> follow and get right.[/color]

I like this one:

http://www.tranchant.freeserve.co.uk...tml-start.html

I hear the author is a really great chap too. ;-)

--
Mark.
http://www.tranchant.freeserve.co.uk/

re: headings headings headings

Mark Tranchant <mtranch2@ford.com> writes:[color=blue]
> I like this one:
>
> http://www.tranchant.freeserve.co.uk...tml-start.html[/color]

In Galeon 1.3.5 based on Mozilla 1.3.1 the bottom of the left
navigation menu isn't visible through scrolling if the window height
is too small. It needs over 700px of height at my fairly small font
size after including a reasonable amount of browser controls, so this
might happen a lot. I'd guess it's the way it's handling position:
fixed;

--
Chris

re: headings headings headings

In article <bejvk3$k964@eccws12.dearborn.ford.com>, mtranch2@ford.com
says...[color=blue]
> Jeff Thies wrote:
>[color=green]
> > I really could use a *simple* to understand "tutorial" of basic HTML. Do
> > you know of something like that? Something that complete newbies can
> > follow and get right.[/color]
>
> I like this one:
>
> http://www.tranchant.freeserve.co.uk...tml-start.html
>
> I hear the author is a really great chap too. ;-)
>[/color]
I heard the same - but when is he going to start the companion css
tutorial that he promised :?)

re: headings headings headings

In article <878yr6uzcr.fsf@dinopsis.dur.ac.uk>, Chris Morris wrote:[color=blue]
> Mark Tranchant <mtranch2@ford.com> writes:[color=green]
> > I like this one:
> >
> > http://www.tranchant.freeserve.co.uk...tml-start.html[/color]
>
> In Galeon 1.3.5 based on Mozilla 1.3.1 the bottom of the left
> navigation menu isn't visible through scrolling if the window height
> is too small. It needs over 700px of height at my fairly small font
> size after including a reasonable amount of browser controls, so this
> might happen a lot. I'd guess it's the way it's handling position:
> fixed;[/color]

He knows that, but don't like to fix it. Mark, you should add disclaimer:
"that position:fixed menu will be truncated occasionally, and I don't
care"

--
Lauri Raittila <http://www.iki.fi/lr> <http://www.iki.fi/zwak/fonts>
Saapi lähettää meiliä, jos aihe ei liity ryhmään, tai on yksityinen
tjsp., mutta älä lähetä samaa viestiä meilitse ja ryhmään.

re: headings headings headings

Lauri Raittila wrote:[color=blue]
> In article <878yr6uzcr.fsf@dinopsis.dur.ac.uk>, Chris Morris wrote:[color=green]
>>Mark Tranchant <mtranch2@ford.com> writes:
>>[color=darkred]
>>>I like this one:
>>>
>>>http://www.tranchant.freeserve.co.uk...tml-start.html[/color]
>>
>>In Galeon 1.3.5 based on Mozilla 1.3.1 the bottom of the left
>>navigation menu isn't visible through scrolling if the window height
>>is too small. It needs over 700px of height at my fairly small font
>>size after including a reasonable amount of browser controls, so this
>>might happen a lot. I'd guess it's the way it's handling position:
>>fixed;[/color][/color]
[color=blue]
> He knows that, but don't like to fix it. Mark, you should add disclaimer:
> "that position:fixed menu will be truncated occasionally, and I don't
> care"[/color]

I do point this out on my "help" page:

http://www.tranchant.freeserve.co.uk/help.html#vis

It's not that I don't care, but that I believe this is the best
compromise to display the menu structure without implementing collapsing
menus.

I'll have another think, but if anyone else has any ideas, I'd be open
to suggestions.

--
Mark.
http://www.tranchant.freeserve.co.uk/

re: headings headings headings

Jacqui or (maybe) Pete wrote:
[color=blue][color=green]
>>I like this one:
>>
>>http://www.tranchant.freeserve.co.uk...tml-start.html
>>
>>I hear the author is a really great chap too. ;-)[/color][/color]
[color=blue]
> I heard the same - but when is he going to start the companion css
> tutorial that he promised :?)[/color]

He keeps claiming he's short of time to complete it, although he has
started it. Poor excuse if you ask me...

--
Mark.
http://www.tranchant.freeserve.co.uk/

re: headings headings headings

Mark Tranchant wrote:[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
>>> I like this one:
>>>
>>> http://www.tranchant.freeserve.co.uk...tml-start.html
>>>
>>> I hear the author is a really great chap too. ;-)[/color][/color]
>[color=green]
>> I heard the same - but when is he going to start the companion
>> css tutorial that he promised :?)[/color]
>
> He keeps claiming he's short of time to complete it, although he
> has started it. Poor excuse if you ask me...[/color]

Lazy s.o.b. :-p

--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me

re: headings headings headings

Mark Tranchant wrote:[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
>>>>http://www.tranchant.freeserve.co.uk...tml-start.html
>>>
>>>In Galeon 1.3.5 based on Mozilla 1.3.1 the bottom of the left
>>>navigation menu isn't visible through scrolling if the window height
>>>is too small. It needs over 700px of height at my fairly small font
>>>size after including a reasonable amount of browser controls, so this
>>>might happen a lot. I'd guess it's the way it's handling position:
>>>fixed;[/color][/color]
>
> compromise to display the menu structure without implementing collapsing
> menus.
>
> I'll have another think, but if anyone else has any ideas, I'd be open
> to suggestions.[/color]

I've never used anything even close to the following, so I have no
idea if I'm way off the mark. Could you use overflow: auto on the
nave div?

--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me

re: headings headings headings

In article <XVFPa.37328$N7.4621@sccrnsc03>, Brian wrote:[color=blue]
> Mark Tranchant wrote:[/color]
[color=blue][color=green]
> > compromise to display the menu structure without implementing collapsing
> > menus.
> >
> > I'll have another think, but if anyone else has any ideas, I'd be open
> > to suggestions.[/color]
>
> I've never used anything even close to the following, so I have no
> idea if I'm way off the mark. Could you use overflow: auto on the
> nave div?[/color]

He could, it works, and he don't like it. That's what I also suggested
before.

--
Lauri Raittila <http://www.iki.fi/lr> <http://www.iki.fi/zwak/fonts>
Saapi lähettää meiliä, jos aihe ei liity ryhmään, tai on yksityinen
tjsp., mutta älä lähetä samaa viestiä meilitse ja ryhmään.

re: headings headings headings

Lauri Raittila wrote:[color=blue]
> In article <beln3b$k9713@eccws12.dearborn.ford.com>, Mark Tranchant
> wrote:
>[color=green]
>>Lauri Raittila wrote:
>>[color=darkred]
>>>In article <878yr6uzcr.fsf@dinopsis.dur.ac.uk>, Chris Morris wrote:
>>>
>>>>Mark Tranchant <mtranch2@ford.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I like this one:
>>>>>
>>>>>http://www.tranchant.freeserve.co.uk...tml-start.html
>>>>
>>>>In Galeon 1.3.5 based on Mozilla 1.3.1 the bottom of the left
>>>>navigation menu isn't visible through scrolling if the window height
>>>>is too small. It needs over 700px of height at my fairly small font
>>>>size after including a reasonable amount of browser controls, so this
>>>>might happen a lot. I'd guess it's the way it's handling position:
>>>>fixed;[/color]
>>[color=darkred]
>>>He knows that, but don't like to fix it. Mark, you should add disclaimer:
>>>"that position:fixed menu will be truncated occasionally, and I don't
>>>care"[/color]
>>
>>I do point this out on my "help" page:
>>
>>http://www.tranchant.freeserve.co.uk/help.html#vis
>>
>>It's not that I don't care, but that I believe this is the best
>>compromise to display the menu structure without implementing collapsing
>>menus.
>>
>>I'll have another think, but if anyone else has any ideas, I'd be open
>>to suggestions.[/color]
>
>
> As I said before, make it look like it is purpose. I think I said that it
> gradually going transparent would be good indicator, and IIRC that would
> have been easy to do, but I haven't visited your site since.[/color]

That's a good idea. I don't remember seeing your old suggestion: either
I missed it, or my newsfeed did.

I'll have to try that, perhaps using less contrasty colours for the
lower menus. Another possibility is to overlay a div containing an alpha
gradient PNG, but I'd have to watch background compatibility.

--
Mark.
http://www.tranchant.freeserve.co.uk/

re: headings headings headings

In article <betk46$5eh7@eccws12.dearborn.ford.com>, Mark Tranchant wrote:[color=blue]
> Lauri Raittila wrote:[color=green]
> > As I said before, make it look like it is purpose. I think I said that it
> > gradually going transparent would be good indicator, and IIRC that would
> > have been easy to do, but I haven't visited your site since.[/color]
>
> That's a good idea. I don't remember seeing your old suggestion: either
> I missed it, or my newsfeed did.
>
> I'll have to try that, perhaps using less contrasty colours for the
> lower menus. Another possibility is to overlay a div containing an alpha
> gradient PNG, but I'd have to watch background compatibility.[/color]

I think easiest would be absolute positioning gradient from transparent
to bluebackground on the bottom of the page, under/bottom of the menu. It
will make last shown menuitem hard/impossible to read, but that was not
the problem, right?

(of course this need to be hidden from IE)

--
Lauri Raittila <http://www.iki.fi/lr> <http://www.iki.fi/zwak/fonts>
Saapi lähettää meiliä, jos aihe ei liity ryhmään, tai on yksityinen
tjsp., mutta älä lähetä samaa viestiä meilitse ja ryhmään.