IE and Geocities

Hi there,

I have this template from Andreas that I'd like to use in Yahoo!
Geocities.

You can view it here:
http://www.geocities.com/rafael_minuesa/andreas/

and this is the original:
http://andreasviklund.com/templates/andreas03/

It displays correctly in all browsers except in IE, where the right
column:

#sidebar{
width:153px;
float:right;
margin-top:5px;
font-size:0.9em;
line-height:1.3em;
}

displays incorrectly.

In the original css I had to change #sidebar from width:155px; to
width:153px; because the menu was being displaced to the bottom in
IE,

It has something to do with some code added by the Geocities server,
because on its own (and by that I mean locally viewed or uploaded to a
"clean" server) it displays correctly in all browsers.

Access keys don't work in IE either, but that's a different issue.

Any ideas?

Thanks

re: IE and Geocities

Fistro <rafaminu@gmail.comwrites:
<snip>The server is adding elements in front of the DOCTYPE. The DOCTYPE is
designed to put all browsers in "standards" rather than "quirks" mode
but any text at all before it changes this behaviour.

--
Ben.

re: IE and Geocities

On Sep 11, 4:02*pm, Ben Bacarisse <ben.use...@bsb.me.ukwrote:This is the code being added:
<script language="JavaScript">var PUpage="76001548"; var
PUprop="geocities"; </script>
<script language="JavaScript" src="http://www.geocities.com/js_source/
pu5geo.js"></script>
<script language="JavaScript"var thGetOv="http://
themis.geocities.yahoo.com/themis/h.php"; var thCanURL="http://
us.geocities.com/rafael_minuesa/index.html"; var thSpaceId="76001548";
var thIP="149.254.192.216"; var thTs="1221142198"; var
thCs="eca143e1e19d7668d191423109654f94";</script>
<noscript><link rel="stylesheet" href="http://
themis.geocities.yahoo.com/jsoff.css?
thIP=149.254.192.216&thTs=1221142198"></noscript>
<script language="JavaScript" src="http://us.geocities.com/js_source/
geovck08.js"></script>

Any workarounds that you may know of?

Thank you.

re: IE and Geocities

Fistro <rafaminu@gmail.comwrites:
It doesn't matter *what* gets added. What part of "any text at all" is
not clear to you?
Host your pages somewhere that doesn't f**k them up.

sherm--

--
My blog: http://shermspace.blogspot.com
Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net

re: IE and Geocities

On 11 sep, 18:29, Sherm Pendley <spamt...@dot-app.orgwrote:It DOES matter *what* gets added, you buffoon. That's the whole
point.
I have already said that: "It has something to do with some code added
by the Geocities server"
What part of that sentence specifically you fail to understand?
I knew that sooner or later some smart-alec would show up. I was
hoping that it'd be later, but no luck.
Bravo sherm,
Thankyou sherm,
Freak off sherm.

re: IE and Geocities

Fistro <rafaminu@gmail.comwrites:
Shouting and calling me names won't change facts.

Your layout problem is caused by quirks mode. Quirks mode is triggered
when any text at all appears above the DOCTYPE, so that the DOCTYPE is
no longer on the first line of the document.

What part of "any text at all" is so hard to understand? It's not what
gets added that causes problems, it's where it gets added. Geocities
could add an empty comment at the top, and it would have precisely the
same effect as what they're adding now. Anything at all that pushes
your DOCTYPE down off the first line will have that effect.
You're welcome. Happy to help!

sherm--

--
My blog: http://shermspace.blogspot.com
Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net

re: IE and Geocities

Fistro wrote:Well Sherm advice although not the most tactful was spot-on. If the
server, like Geocities inserts anything before the DOCTYPE is going to
be problematic for IE. It is best to find another server that DOES NOT
inject stuff into your pages. There are options out there, and some free
ones as well. Google is your friend,

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Google+Search
ad free free web hosting - Google Search
--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

re: IE and Geocities

On Sep 11, 7:18 pm, Sherm Pendley <spamt...@dot-app.orgwrote:So, in other words, you have no idea of what is being added neither of
any workarounds .
That's fine, just say so, or better yet, don't say anything.
I don't either, you see, that's why I'm asking.

re: IE and Geocities

Fistro <rafaminu@gmail.comwrites:
I know that it doesn't matter what gets added above the DOCTYPE. Any
text that's added above it will trigger quirks mode.
If you don't want help, why did you ask for it?
If you don't know what's going on, then you have no logical basis to
assert that someone else's advice about it is incorrect. It's pretty
obvious at this point that you don't actually want help - you're just
here to pick a fight. So, into the killfile you go... *plonk*

sherm--

--
My blog: http://shermspace.blogspot.com
Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net

re: IE and Geocities

On Sep 11, 2:39*pm, Fistro <rafam...@gmail.comwrote:And the answers has been provided. There ARE no workarounds. This is
what these guys are trying to explain to you. Doesn't matter WHAT is
being added, the fact that ANYTHING AT ALL is added before the doctype
will foul it up. Since you have no control over Geocities dumping on
your code, there is no workaround so long as you host on Geocities.

re: IE and Geocities

Hey Fistro.

Sherm just put you in his kill file. That's good. It means, if he
really did it, that your future questions here should get more civil
replies.

re: IE and Geocities

[top-posting fixed]

On 2008-09-11, Jack wrote:The answers *may* be more civil, but they will not be any more
accurate.

--
Chris F.A. Johnson <http://cfaj.freeshell.org>
================================================== =================
Author:
Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)

re: IE and Geocities

In article <m1abeeioa2.fsf@dot-app.org>,
Sherm Pendley <spamtrap@dot-app.orgwrote:
I regularly add things like

<?php $thisPage="name"; ?>

So maybe there is more to understanding "any text at all" than might
seem.

--
dorayme

re: IE and Geocities

In article <f53jc4998jrfddkalh4fm8nm24tm9do8oj@4ax.com>,
Jack<Sorry@cantdothat.comwrote:
Hardly, there are a quite a few lined up in waiting to mug newcomers.
And besides, Sherm is actually just a softie in disguise, his killfile
is hopeless and his plonking works for about 3 secs.

I have been in some of the best kfs in the world and I can assure you
there are some very bad and mean ones and it takes a sort of Mandela or
Bird Man of Alcatraz (Burt Lancaster) type like me to make the best out
of them to cope.

--
dorayme

re: IE and Geocities

On Sep 11, 9:40*pm, "Jonathan N. Little" <lws4...@central.netwrote:Then, one solution to the issue of cross-browser compatibility would
be to create multiple style sheets for multiple browsers, then using
JavaScript code to return the version and type of browser the web
visitor is using.
In fact I only need another style sheet specific for IE

Correct? Just asking ...

re: IE and Geocities

Fistro wrote:And when JavaScript is disabled, or the browser is posing as IE, as some
folks with Opera use to do...

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

re: IE and Geocities

dorayme wrote:But that does not send that text to the browser, as with any
*server-side* code.So to more finely define it, any text sent from the server to the
browser before the DOCTYPE will cause problems...


--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

re: IE and Geocities

On Sep 12, 12:27*am, "Jonathan N. Little" <lws4...@central.netwrote:I'll take that risk.
Not many people disable JavaScript in IE, anyway and the percentage of
those posing as IE with Opera are insignificant and I'm sure they'll
understand

How about about Conditional Comments?

re: IE and Geocities

Fistro <rafaminu@gmail.comwrites:
Hmm... There are lots of problems with "browser sniffing" as such
detection is called. If you simply must have a separate style sheet
for IE I would suggest you use MS's conditional comments.

But is this really a option? I presume you are using an off the peg
layout because you are not familiar with CSS. Fixing a layout for IE
quirks mode is not trivial (there is no spec as far as I know, you
just have to know all the ins and outs).

Are you sure you can not get Geocities to stop adding stuff to your
page? Maybe you can configure the service to put the extra stuff
where it belongs.

[1] http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms537512.aspx

--
Ben.

re: IE and Geocities

On Sep 12, 1:05*am, Ben Bacarisse <ben.use...@bsb.me.ukwrote:I just been reading through that article, thank you.
You're right, fixing a layout for IE quirks mode is an ordeal, but it
is a new challenge that will enrich my knowledge and will be obsolete
by the time I have mastered it.
Believe it or not I work with CSS all the time, but I do it mostly
with pre-made templates that I have to adapt to different major
browsers (IE 6+). All it takes is going through the style sheet and
fix a few known issues.
This time is different because it looks like I have to correct just
about every other issue, but it's ok, I'll do it, and I'll hate
Microsoft just a little bit more ...

re: IE and Geocities

In article <88e2$48c9a8db$40cba7c6$20887@NAXS.COM>,
"Jonathan N. Little" <lws4art@central.netwrote:
I know.

Just trying to take the heat off poor old Fistro. I regard my
intervention as like waving some red rag at some bulls in a ring so a
defenceless human quarry op gets time to jump fence before horrible
bloody goring...
You are a clever little bull ...

To the OP, do you know you can get some pretty good free hosting without
all this nonsense by the hosters that you are experiencing?

--
dorayme

re: IE and Geocities

dorayme wrote:
Already gave him the tip. Didn't seem to be too receptive, I guess he'd
rather keep flogging it to see if he can get IE to fall in line.

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

re: IE and Geocities

On Sep 12, 3:22 am, "Jonathan N. Little" <lws4...@central.netwrote:I have already made IE fall in line. Still a few things to tune up,
but I got it.

I must apologize to Bacarise for my reaction and thank him and
everyone else for their comments, specially those who provide me with
an insight into the problem.

I know it's not excuse, but I have never encountered this problem
before and I just couldn't believe that on top of all the
inconsistencies that IE has, there was another one that will force me
to start all over again. It is true, I refused to be beaten by some
"quirks mode" imposed upon me by those brainless twits at Microsoft.

Add to that that I have recently replaced my laptop with one running
Vista, and perhaps you can sympathize with my degree of frustration
and amazement at the heights of human stupidity.

But at the end, I have found a workaround and I thank you immensely
for pointing me to the right direction.

I've also found this article very helpful, that explains the way
browsers have been observed to behave when in Quirks Mode:
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/quirks-mode.html

Cheers

re: IE and Geocities

Fistro wrote:Of course you realize you have compounded your problem by trying to use
XHTML what MSIE has a problem to begin with. IE behaves better, even
when it is in quirks mode, with HTML then when it parses XHTML as tag soup.

Do you have any specific reason for using XHTML other than "because it's
advanced"?


--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

re: IE and Geocities

On Sep 12, 3:34*pm, "Jonathan N. Little" <lws4...@central.netwrote:Nope, no reason.
It just sounds better, HTML sounds so ninetiesh ...

Enough attention devoted to IE, anyway, let them get their act
together, the design renders well in all versions of IE now and that's
what I was trying to do.

As a final thought to this thread I want to point out how the CSS-
related bugs in IE can be so extremely frustrating to the point of
turning a simple project into an unending nightmare.
Please, make the Internet a better place and use Firefox or any other
CSS standards compliant browser.
http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/firefox...11&aid=4414569

You can also complain by letter to MS HQ and representatives. Don't
try to email them , it won't work, and you'll get blacklisted.

Thank you

re: IE and Geocities

Fistro wrote:
Well, Jukka would be quickly note: 'a mark of cluelessness'

Trying XHTML, (and I mean 'trying' because your attempt is not valid
XHTML) is not helping your situation. Do a little Googling and you will
discover that XHTML does not have a real future at this point and HTML
is far from dead. If you abandoned your attempt at XHTML and used HTML
you will find that IE will cooperate will little effort on your part.

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

re: IE and Geocities

On Sep 12, 6:54*pm, "Jonathan N. Little" <lws4...@central.netwrote:I'm not going to make anymore changes as of now (well, just one
more ...), but thanks for the lead again, I've read a good article on
XHTML myths here:
http://boulderjams.wordpress.com/200...yths-and-more/

re: IE and Geocities

On 12 Sep, 16:34, "Jonathan N. Little" <lws4...@central.netwrote:How does IE behave better when it parsers HTML as a tag soup, instead
of XHTML as an HTML tag soup? I wouldn't be suprised, but do you have
a
reference or something?

I suspect they just search for the word 'html' inside the DOCTYPE
declaration, and then treat XHTML as any other HTML tag soup. Their
own blogg says they are going to 'continue to read XHTML when served
as “text/html”, presuming it follows the HTML compatibility
recommendations'.

http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2005/09/15/467901.aspx

--
"I made the decision to not try to support the MIME type in IE7 simply
because I personally want XHTML to be successful in the long run."
- Chris Wilson

re: IE and Geocities

On Sep 12, 11:17*pm, "Roy A." <royarnes...@gmail.comwrote:Gosh, just by reading that blog I get sick in the stomach.

Here's an excerpt:

"Hello everyone!

One of the features we improved in IE8 is the ‘new tab’ page, which is
the page you see by default when you click the New Tab button on the
Tab row, or if you hit CTRL+T (the keyboard shortcut that does the
same thing). We’re the Program Managers for this page and would like
to walk you through the history and evolution of this feature to what
it is today in IE8 Beta 2.
When IE7 was released in 2006, many users did not know what tabs were,
so our new tab page didn’t really do anything except say “I’m a tab”
and offer a link to help content for folks who were interested in
learning more. Now it’s 2008, and web users are even more
sophisticated and tab-enabled browsers are ubiquitous, so we decided
that it was time to start making the new tab page more useful than
just saying “I’m here."

How about that, people? one of the "features" they improved in IE8 is
the ‘new tab’ page ... Are these people working hard or what?
But no plans for supporting the “application/xml+xhtml” MIME type in
IE7 simply because they want XHTML to be successful.
I think I gonna throw up ...

re: IE and Geocities

On 13 Sep, 03:46, "Jonathan N. Little" <lws4...@central.netwrote:[...]
Sorry. Both snippets shows "Page is in Quirks Mode" with the comment,
and "Page is in Strict Mode" without the comment.

But, that was not the issue. You said:

"IE behaves better, even when it is in quirks mode, with HTML then
when it parses XHTML as tag soup."

Well, the alert box is the same, either HTML 4.01 is parsed as html,
or XHTML 1.0 is parsed as html.