How to Embolden A Blockquote?

Actually, it doesn't have to be a blockquote...but I'm at my wits'
end: I want to make bold several lines of text which have a pair of
<br /tags between them...seems like the <b></bdo not "carry over"
when there are <br /tags involved...???

I've tried using <p style="font-weight: bold;"></p>, I've tried
<blockquote></blockquote>...I just can't figure how I'm supposed to
get the <b></btags to work for all the lines! Surely there must be
another way than having to apply <b></btags to each sentence???

TIA

re: How to Embolden A Blockquote?

Prisoner at War wrote:Must be more going on than what you have post, hence a URL is *always*
useful. If you have not done something else to override it,

p { font-weight: bold; }

will make your paragraphs bold even with embedded <br>s


--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

re: How to Embolden A Blockquote?

In article
<6e4a700f-d9ca-4d48-9b90-300d3625c06d@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
Prisoner at War <prisoner_at_war@yahoo.comwrote:
<http://dorayme.890m.com/alt/offerToEatHat.html>

--
dorayme

re: How to Embolden A Blockquote?

dorayme wrote:Careful, unless you prefer a diet of felt. Disabled style or user
stylesheet could be a play ;-)

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

re: How to Embolden A Blockquote?

In article <10209$48b7780f$40cba7c6$20794@NAXS.COM>,
"Jonathan N. Little" <lws4art@central.netwrote:
True, I better take a small precaution, like cook a nice chocolate hat.

--
dorayme

re: How to Embolden A Blockquote?

Prisoner at War wrote:
Stop wanting that. It makes a poor impression. People will feel bad when
looking at a block of bold text, and some of them will even realize why.
Find a better way of emphasis, like change in font size, colored background,
border around, or a combination of methods.
They do "carry over" <br /of course. The <br /markup is text-level. You
are not revealing us the real problem you have created.
It's not wise, but technically it bolds the text, other things being equal.
So either other things aren't equal (e.g., some external stylesheet prevents
bolding) or you don't see that the text _is_ bold. (It's sometimes difficult
to see for some appearances of text, especially when ridiculously small font
sizes are used.)

Actually, your sample element has empty content. I, for one, have
difficulties in distinguishing between a normal empty string and a bold
empty string.

Yucca

re: How to Embolden A Blockquote?

dorayme wrote:Good plan!

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

re: How to Embolden A Blockquote?

Jonathan N. Little wrote:No worries. She could always style spun sugar to look like a hat and eat
that. Of course, with stylesheets disabled, it wouldn't look like a hat.

re: How to Embolden A Blockquote?

"dorayme" <doraymeRidThis@optusnet.com.auwrote in message
news:doraymeRidThis-D6E46A.13515729082008@web.aioe.org...May I suggest that the normal convention with quotes is either the use of
italics, &quot; marks or indented block. Personally I prefer to combine all
of the above, but I am told this is not quite the convention either.

Having said this, the w3c validator doesn't recognise any nesting within the
blockquote element a blockquote element is recognised inside or outside
block elements. However, inline elements inside a blockquote element are
reported as invalid unless the blockquote element is nested inside a block
element such as <p></p>, <h3></h3>, <div></div>, etc, and if this is the
case, no text outside the inline elements but within the nested blockquote
element is validated. I don't know if it is a bug or not, but the validator
does validate normally when block elements such as <p></p& <h3></h3>, etc
appear inside the blockquote element and no inline elements appear inside
the blockquote element but outside the block element it contains.

The blockquote element adds a redundant level of complexity to the
inline/block model of Hermetic (IE "well-formed") mark-up. When indenting a
block quotation, I prefer to subclass the paragraph <p></pblock element in
CSS as

p.QT {margin-left:49px; margin-right:49px;}

with <p class="QT">...</pcontaining my block quotations in the html
instead of the blockquote element. Notice how the use of CSS to define my
own class of block element gives me more control of that element. I can
equalise left *and* right indentation as I've done at
http://literature.timothycasey.info and browsers don't appear to have any
problem differentiating inline elements within the p.QT element - even when
these inline elements are broken by the <brelement as with the Zoroastrian
Maxim from the Dedistan Denig quotation on this page. This would allow you
to include the font-weight in the CSS as

p.QT {margin-left:49px; margin-right:49px;font-weight: bold;}

in your CSS. The page also validates both for HTML strict and CSS so you can
rely on this technique for some time to come across a wide range of
browsers.

Good Luck!

--
Timothy Casey GPEMC! Conditions apply. See www.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC
Essays: http://timothycasey.info; http://speed-reading-comprehension.com
Software: http://fieldcraft.biz; Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, Security.
Science & Technical: http://geologist-1011.com; http://web-design-1011.com

re: How to Embolden A Blockquote?

Number Eleven - GPEMC! wrote:
It's a bad idea to combine them, and surely not normal by any reputable
style guide. Moreover, &quot; is bad practice, since the ASCII quotation
mark " (which is what &quot; means) is not a recommended quotation mark in
any normal human language. (Besides, using &quot; instead of " is pointless
and just confusing and makes text look like... what should I say, Perl
code?)

For block quotations, indentation is normal rendering. Using italics for
blocks of text might be fashionable in some circles, but it makes the text
less readable.

None of this is really an HTML issue. In HTML you use <blockquotefor block
quotations, and that's it. You change the rendering in CSS, if desired.
Huh? What are you talking about? Of course it does. Most nested blockquotes
are, of course, misguided authoring practices where <blockquoteis used in
a command-like manner, with the intended meaning of "indent!" But nested
blockquotes are as such allowed and adequately parsed by validators.
Of course, but what has this got to do with the topic, or anything?
It seems that you are trying to say something about HTML syntax. Please
learn it first. You are just confusing yourself, and maybe some other
novices as well. (Inline elements are not allowed as children of blockquote
_in the Strict version_. No version of HTML allows blockquote inside p or
h3.)
You should also learn the basics of CSS from a decent book before giving
advice on CSS. Any decent book tells you why you should not use the px unit
in a context like that. And this is an HTML group, not CSS.
So you're saying that instead of proper markup for a blockquote, a p element
with a cryptic class be used, and in addition to using such margins, the
text should be bold.

Sounds like trolling, really.

Yucca

re: How to Embolden A Blockquote?

"Jukka K. Korpela" <jkorpela@cs.tut.fiwrote in message
news:xZswk.61413$_03.47661@reader1.news.saunalahti .fi...pointlessActually, it is not confusing although it can limit your options.
blockblockquotesinTry parsing the statements in full...
It does, but you need to read the paragraph as a whole...
blockquoteThen the w3c validator has a bug or two but at the end of the day, it still
flags blockquotes inside block elements via what I was talking about. Block
elements inside the blockquote element actually do validate as HTML strict;
as do any inline elements within the block elements within the blockquote
element - I checked first.
unitHTML without CSS is like CSS without markup; rather limited! I've also read
why px *is* used in this context - specification reduces ambiguity; and it
both validates and works interoperably so who cares!
elementThe original poster wanted bold, so here it is by this method; and it
validates...

--
Timothy Casey GPEMC! Conditions apply. See www.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC
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re: How to Embolden A Blockquote?

Number Eleven - GPEMC! wrote:
I do, and a combination of nonsensical sentences still does not make a full
statement any more sensible.
This, too, makes no sense. You claim that the validator has a bug without
giving any evidence. I simply corrected incorrect statements you made, and
you quoted it and made that foolish statement and then continue babbling,
based on a misunderstanding of yours on _another_ issue, one that I already
corrected.
That was never under dispute, and it's also true in Transitional.
No you didn't. If the inner block element is a blockquote, then it may not
have inline elements as children in Strict. Besides, the statement you made
is also irrelevant to the topic.
This group is still an HTML group.
Apparently you don't care about learning CSS or HTML.
And an _appropriate_ answer also tells why bolding large pieces of text is a
bad idea, as well as points out that when desired, bolding is best made
using CSS, which is off-topic in this group.
Quite irrelevant.

Please keep using your "funny" forged From field as long as you remain
clueless.

Yucca

re: How to Embolden A Blockquote?

I checked out your tip regarding ASCII character 34 (the " character
straight from the keyboard), instead of &quot; - and it works and validates,
so thanks, I agree it's much easier to use - but it is a pain to discuss!

"Jukka K. Korpela" <jkorpela@cs.tut.fiwrote in message
news:xSwwk.61564$_03.11888@reader1.news.saunalahti .fi...[SNIP][SNIP]

Now I said:

"Block elements inside the blockquote element actually do validate as HTML
strict; as do any inline elements within the block elements within the
blockquote element - I checked first."

So let's take a closer look at

"inline elements
inside
block elements
inside
the
blockquote element."
As per my original statement. Check this out:
http://web-design-1011.com/blockquot...d-inline.shtml

That's my web design site with a special page dedicated to this just this
topic; namely those "inline elements within the block elements within the
blockquote element". IE relevant HTML without the text it embellishes:

<p>
<acronym>
</acronym>
<acronym>
</acronym>
</p>
<blockquote>
<h2>
<big>
</big>
</h2>
<p>
<acronym>
</acronym>
<strong>
</strong>
<em>
</em>
</p>
</blockquote>
<h2>
</h2>

This refers to nested inline elements such as the big, strong, and emphatic
elements shown above; more importantly to accessibility features such as the
acronym element that also appears indirectly nested within the blockquote
above.

As you will have seen after following the link, neither page functionality
is degraded nor is there any malfunction of the blockquote which I know you
are not disputing - but those inline elements inside the block elements
inside the blockquote I specified above, both validate and function
correctly. Those were the points I was making before you entered this
discussion. There is a HTML validation button at the left of the footer at:
http://web-design-1011.com/blockquot...d-inline.shtml
Following that link will verify what I am saying here. Take a peek at the
source. Firefox has a fantastic source display (on the "View" Menu).

And I did check first. I modified a live page with the right features and
after validation changed it back. I check every technique I'm not familiar
with this way before proceeding with it because a surprising number of
techniques documented by reputable sources are complete duds (eg. techniques
that depend to an unreasonable degree on security holes in visitor browsers,
techniques that are not interoperable, & techniques that simply do not work
at all).

Finally, did I say anything personal at all about you in this response?

--
Timothy Casey GPEMC! Conditions apply. See www.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC
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Software: http://fieldcraft.biz; Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, Security…
Science & Technical: http://geologist-1011.com; http://web-design-1011.com

re: How to Embolden A Blockquote?

In article <48c39b5a$0$4449$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>,
"Number Eleven - GPEMC!" <eleven_is_the_number@timothycasey.info>
wrote:
[... long post ...]
Only in the final moment when you - quite reasonably, mind you - ask
this question. <g>

--
dorayme

re: How to Embolden A Blockquote?

"Jukka K. Korpela" <jkorpela@cs.tut.fiwrote in message
news:xSwwk.61564$_03.11888@reader1.news.saunalahti .fi...[SNIP][SNIP]

This arrangement I am talking about is also something I tested. IE:

....<body>
<p>
<blockquote>
&gt; You claim that the validator has a bug without <br>
&gt; giving any evidence.
</blockquote>
</p>
....</body>

I did this test yesterday, explained the conditions and outcomes, so given
that anyone can test this bug, I've provided all the evidence necessary.
Here are some examples...

See: http://web-design-1011.com/blockquote-bug.shtml
http://web-design-1011.com/blockquote-bug2.shtml

As you can see, it doesn't matter how simple the test becomes, the validator
does not flag the improper nesting, but makes statements about the code that
are demonstrably false (such as missing start tags that are present in the
source view). Although this hints at the real problem, another information
management approach may assume that the bug was indicative of problems
relating either, objectives to specification or specification to standard.
In terms of risk management, this represents a higher probability of
unannounced code behaviour changes as a flow-on from misinterpretation and
correction in other areas. This is highly relevant to HTML authoring in
general because of the fact that browser interpretation of given standards
changes so often. The CSS modified paragraph I demonstrated as a substitute
for the blockquote element provides a pathway via known methods that lack
such questions, and is thus less prone to being broken by quirks in browser
evolution.

You see, relevant or not, communication conventions such as language and
coding syntax evolve and change in line with social evolution. Languages
that do not change to meet community needs die like Latin and Esperanto,
Cobol and Fortran. This behaviour dictates that no book on coding standards
in a persistent language is ever as reliable as inductive reasoning from the
evidence provided by a direct and immediate test, such as those I conducted
yesterday and repeated today.

--
Timothy Casey GPEMC! Conditions apply. See www.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC
Essays: http://timothycasey.info; http://speed-reading-comprehension.com
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re: How to Embolden A Blockquote?

Number Eleven - GPEMC! wrote:
You have demonstrated nothing but your ignorance of the basics of HTML.

To demonstrate a bug, you need to provide
a) a citation of a relevant specification
b) a specific case of software behavior that violates the cited
specification
c) identification of the exact way in which that case shows that the
software violates the specification.

You are playing with code like

<p>
<blockquote>
&gt; You claim that the validator has a bug without <br>
&gt; giving any evidence.
</blockquote>
</p>

without understanding _why_ it is invalid. If a validator's message does not
help you, then the reason is that those messages are useful only to people
who know the markup language used (and even something about formalized
syntax). If you asked politely, maybe someone would then explain to you that
by HTML rules (prior to XHTML), the start tag <blockquoteimplicitly closes
an open <pelement, etc. Well, this has been explained so often, that it's
probably in the W3C validator FAQ...

Yucca

re: How to Embolden A Blockquote?

On 2008-09-07, Number Eleven - GPEMC! <eleven_is_the_number@timothycasey.infowrote:I think the validator's output makes more sense when you realize that
there are three different problems with the markup here.

<blockquote>hello</blockquote>

is invalid because blockquote has to contain at least one block-level
element (or a SCRIPT). If you try the above you get the same errors:
"character data not allowed here" for hello (it's expecting <por <div>
or something block-level) and "end tag for blockquote which is not
finished"-- it's not finished because it doesn't have that required
block-level element inside it.

Now if you try:

<p>
<blockquote>hello</blockquote>

That's invalid for the same reasons, and you get the same two errors
reported. There's nothing wrong with the <pin front of the
blockquote-- the </pis optional, so this is just an empty paragraph
followed by a blockquote.

And this:

<p>
<blockquote>
<div>hello</div>
</blockquote>

is therefore perfectly valid.

This:

<p>
<blockquote>
<div>hello</div>
</blockquote>
</p>

Will tell you you're closing a <pyou didn't open-- the first <pwas
considered closed by the blockquote.

So for:

<p>
<blockquote>
character data
</blockquote>
</p>

You get all three errors reported, which is not unreasonable. I
certainly don't think it could be called a bug.

I was quite surprised myself that a blockquote has to contain at least
one block-level element or SCRIPT, but that's what the DTD says.

re: How to Embolden A Blockquote?

"Ben C" <spamspam@spam.eggswrote in message
news:slrngc80gb.31m.spamspam@bowser.marioworld...<eleven_is_the_number@timothycasey.infowrote:withoutgivenvalidatorthatthe[SNIP]

I'm aware of the DTD. However my original point was that although the error
is flagged it is misidentified. You are right, it makes more sense if you
already know what the validator is supposed to be telling you - but the
reason I am bringing this up is because this doesn't work for everyone. Not
everyone knows HTML like you or I do.
As was I. However, the validator does occasionally misidentify errors as it
does by misreporting incorrectly nested blockquotes as missing tags.

--
Timothy Casey GPEMC! Conditions apply. See www.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC
Essays: http://timothycasey.info; http://speed-reading-comprehension.com
Software: http://fieldcraft.biz; Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, Security.
Science & Technical: http://geologist-1011.com; http://web-design-1011.com

re: How to Embolden A Blockquote?

"Jukka K. Korpela" <jkorpela@cs.tut.fiwrote in message
news:9_Qwk.62071$_03.50952@reader1.news.saunalahti .fi...Care to elaborate on how someone who has "nothing but ignorance of the
basics of HTML" can hand code pages like:
http://web-design-1011.com/blockquote-bug.shtml
http://web-design-1011.com/blockquote-bug2.shtml

???

Care to demonstrate that degree of superiority of knowledge that gives you
the right to personally attack the expertise of people you disagree with?

Can you for instance, tell us how the drop down menus in the pages in
question function even when the page is listed in the browser as a
restricted site?
OR
Perhaps you can tell us from a functional perspective why those menus are
made from classed tables instead of classed lists?

Perhaps you'd like to tell us all why you prefer to attack the person
instead of the argument? Surely you understand that your style of argument
reflects on you and these days, everyone knows that personal attacks are
diversionary tactics. What are you diverting people's attention from?
To demonstrate a bug, you need only show a deviation from goal in the
program behaviour. The relevant specification is not in question here: we
are not disagreeing that the test bed comprises an improperly nested
blockquote. We both know that the object of the validator is twofold; to
flag validation errors, and correctly identify validation errors. There is
no need to prove what we both already understand. It also goes without
saying that the validator was not intended to mislead people and therefore
factual errors in validator output are automatically bugs. In this context
it is only necessary to show the misidentification of an error. That I have
done.
[sic.]Untrue - I already know that this blockquote is improperly nested. As a
software developer, I also know that the objective of an error message is to
correctly identify the error generated, and therefore if an error message
misidentifies the error then there is a bug in the error handler. This is
universal regardless of specification, unless you are writing for the black
hats.

What I just showed you was the validator misattributing the incorrect
nesting of the blockquote and paragraph to missing tags - which a review of
the code demonstrates are not actually missing.

Whether the validator's message helps me or not, the deviation of it's
behaviour from it's explicit objective constitutes a bug and once again, my
experience in software development is that this will be unhelpful for many
of those trying to use the scientific method to learn HTML.

I don't mean to get too personal, but I find it interesting that at least on
this thread, you consistently defer to argumentum ad homenim. This is a form
of false argument, and although formally it proves nothing
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy), some people will take it to say
something about the sort of human being you are. If I was the sensitive
sort, I might think that you are trying to bully me. However,experience has
taught me that more than 90% of the time when people use a fallacy, it is
because they have no better argument to make than a false argument
(http://science.geologist-1011.net). If you do some reading (a lot of
reading actually) you might even discover one single solitary thesis that
combines both a fallacy and a conclusion that just happens to be true. So
from the perspective of inductive reasoning, it is not unreasonable to
discount an argument as soon as a fallacy is identified. This reflects on
what you have to say, and raises the question of why you choose to undermine
or otherwise discredit your own point of view like this?

--
Timothy Casey GPEMC! Conditions apply. See www.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC
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re: How to Embolden A Blockquote?

On 2008-09-09, Number Eleven - GPEMC! wrote:Would you care to elaborate on how a HTML expert can produce a
page that has 3 errors and 5 warnings and looks like this:
<http://cfaj.freeshell.org/testing/bq.jpg>?
Learn to ignore Jukka's rudeness; he can't help it. Concentrate
instead on the information he provides; it is almost always spot
on.

--
Chris F.A. Johnson <http://cfaj.freeshell.org>
================================================== =================
Author:
Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)

re: How to Embolden A Blockquote?

"Chris F.A. Johnson" <cfajohnson@gmail.comwrites:
LOL! The "interoperability, accessibility, compliance..." tag line is
especially funny. Oh, the irony...

sherm--

--
My blog: http://shermspace.blogspot.com
Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net

re: How to Embolden A Blockquote?

On 2008-09-09, Number Eleven - GPEMC! <eleven_is_the_number@timothycasey.infowrote:[...]Yes but there's more than one correct way to identify errors, especially
when the input contains several.

What the validator does is start barfing at the first error it comes to.
The <pon its own is not an error, so it just skips past that. The </p>
is so that's the one it complains about.

A bit counter-intuitive perhaps but OK. What if the markup was a bit
more complicated-- the author might have intended a self-closing
paragraph further up and accidentally put </pin further down. Then
he'd complain "but it's not a NESTING error!"

Better for the validator to stick to what it's good at which is not
guessing what people meant.

re: How to Embolden A Blockquote?

On 10 Sep, 00:45, "Number Eleven - GPEMC!"
<eleven_is_the_num...@timothycasey.infowrote:[...]
[...]
No errors is misidentified.
Not everyone knows HTML like Ben C. If you or they don't know, you or
they have to learn. If you or they don't understand the error
messages, you and they could read a beginner guide to HTML. Even the
W3C's HTML recommendation is spelling this out.

"The P element represents a paragraph. It cannot contain block-level
elements (including P itself)."

"BLOCKQUOTE is for long quotations (block-level content)"

If the author of the beginner guide can't explain this, you should try
to find another beginner guide. You really need one.
Can you show one example where the validator is misidentifying an
error?

In your first link <http://web-design-1011.com/blockquote-bug.shtml>
you say:
The blockquote is not nested inside an p element, but inside the body
element.
The content within the blockquote isn't valid in HTML 4.01 strict:

"BLOCKQUOTE is for long quotations (block-level content)..."

"<!ELEMENT BLOCKQUOTE - - (%block;|SCRIPT)+ -- long quotation -->"

<http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#edef-BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, the validator says "character data is not allowed here". Only
block-level content is allowed.
The validator says "document type does not allow element "BR"
here;...". The br element is an inline element and only block-level
content is allowed within blockquote elements.
No, the validator says "end tag for "BLOCKQUOTE" which is not
finished". It is not complaining about a missing start tag. To finish
the blockquote element an block-level element must occur one or more
times within that blockquote element.

"<!ELEMENT BLOCKQUOTE - - (%block;|SCRIPT)+ -- long quotation -->"
<http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#edef-BLOCKQUOTE>

In "3.3 How to read the HTML DTD" it says:
"( ... ) Delimits a group." and "A+ A must occur one or more times."
<http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/intro/sgmltut.html#h-3.3.3.1>

You claim that the blockqoute element is "improperly nested inside a
block element", but it isn't. The blockquote element is nested inside
the body element. The p element before the blockquote element is
closed. The end tag of the p element is optional, but the element
is closet because it can't contain an block-level element.

"End tag: optional"
http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#edef-P
There is no paragraph, the p element is already closed.
No, the start tag is missing. If you want a new paragraph you have to
open it.

"Start tag: required"
<http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#edef-P>

That's why the validator says "end tag for element "P" which is not
open".
No, the first paragraph don't nest the blockquote. The end tag for the
p element is optional and since the p element can't contain a block-
level element it is closed before the blockquote. You should know that
the blockquote element is an block-level element, if not, read an
absolute novice beginner guide to HTML. I suggest "Head First", it has
a lot of pictures.

re: How to Embolden A Blockquote?

"Chris F.A. Johnson" <cfajohnson@gmail.comwrote in message
news:bcc1f$48c709cf$cef88ba3$18355@TEKSAVVY.COM...ROTFLOL!

BTW, I did say it doesn't validate, ....

What can I say? That was a deliberate act of sabotage on my part - some
might call it standards-terrorism! This page was created to demonstrate how
a single error is reported by the validator as three that don't quite state
the problem - IE, by fixing only one error (the nesting), the other two
errors go away as well.

My point is that *_everyone_* who posts here has to know something about
HTML, even if it is a simple fact like "HTML has something to do with web
pages" - which it does! You see, even that is not complete ignorance.
Besides, argumentum ad homenim is just intellectual thuggery combined with
intellectual sleight of hand. If someone has a reason to disagree, they can
state it without hiding behind the ignorance of the other person - and may I
point out that those of us who are human are all ignorant to some degree.
I'll repeat that: we all have gaps in our knowledge. This is such a definite
and guaranteed aspect of the human condition that it speaks to glass houses
when people take it upon themselves to accuse others of ignorance.

Experience has taught me to distrust those who substitute substantiation
with argumentum ad homenim.

--
Timothy Casey GPEMC! Conditions apply. See www.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC
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re: How to Embolden A Blockquote?

"Roy A." <royarneskar@gmail.comwrote in message
news:cd927f76-797b-4764-b9e8-4753f504e546@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...[SNIP][SNIP]

<body>
[...]
<p>
<blockquote>
&gt; You claim that the validator has a bug without <br>
&gt; giving any evidence.
</blockquote>
</p>
[...]
</body>

So what do you call this? Is it that you can only say the grandchild element
is nested inside the parent but not the child element, in the context of
HTML literature? To me, the body element in this invalid example, is parent
to the paragraph element which in turn is parent to the blockquote element.

So from the perspective of a programmer, the blockquote is nested, albeit
invalidly, inside the paragraph, which is nested inside the body element.
Can you not express it this way when discussing HTML? How then do you
identify the immediate container or parent node when discussing structure?

My point was that it is a single mark-up error that causes the validator to
generate a report of three such errors, none of which explicitly describe
the nesting problem - by way of commenting on the care with which one needs
to interpret validator output.

--
Timothy Casey GPEMC! Conditions apply. See www.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC
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re: How to Embolden A Blockquote?

In article <48c8e845$0$31806$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> ,
"Number Eleven - GPEMC!" <eleven_is_the_number@timothycasey.info>
wrote:
ad hominem.

Actually, your phrase reminds me of an attempt to convince me that 9/11
was a US Govt inside job... i kept being referred to youTube speeches
and demos. I protested that I was not keen on arguments by home video.
Your phrase suggests home animations (which also featured)...

Anyway, arguments ad hominem are not always bad ones if they are
shorthand ways of delivering more forceful arguments. More often they
are mere forms of abuse. But the term is not as clear as some people
think it is.

--
dorayme

re: How to Embolden A Blockquote?

On 2008-09-11, Number Eleven - GPEMC! <eleven_is_the_number@timothycasey.infowrote:[...][...]No there are three errors, not one.

The other two are: character data in the blockquote and no blocks in the
blockquote.

re: How to Embolden A Blockquote?

On 11 Sep, 11:57, "Number Eleven - GPEMC!"
<eleven_is_the_num...@timothycasey.infowrote:You have an empty p element, that's allowed.
You have character data and a inline (text-level) element inside a
blockquote element. That's invalid nesting. The validator flags those
errors:

-"Line 214, Column 5: character data is not allowed here"
-"Line 214, Column 57: document type does not allow element "BR"
here;..."

Why is 'character data is not allowed here'? Well look it up. Since
you're a programmer you could look at:

http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/index/elements.html
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/stru...def-BLOCKQUOTE

There it is spelled out:

-"BLOCKQUOTE is for long quotations (block-level content)"

Why is it so that 'document type does not allow element "BR" here'?
Well since you're using HTML 4.01 the validator is suggesting that
you're missing an block-level element:

- "...; missing one of "P", "H1", "H2", "H3", "H4", "H5", "H6", "PRE",
"DIV", "ADDRESS" start-tag ."
If you didn't correct those errors, the validator is flagging another
error:

-"Line 216, Column 12: end tag for "BLOCKQUOTE" which is not
finished ."

Why isn't the "BLOCKQUOTE" finished? Well, if you don't know, the
description might give you a hint:

-"Another possibility is that you used an element which requires a
child element that you did not include. Hence the parent element is
"not finished", not complete."

The validator is even telling you what they mean by the phrase 'not
finished'.
The last error flagged in your example, that you claim to be a bug is:

-"Line 217, Column 3: end tag for element "P" which is not open ."

Why is the validator telling you that the "P" element isn't open? The
description says:

-"This is often caused by a leftover end tag from an element that was
removed during editing, or by an implicitly closed element"

Only you know if the tag is removed during editing or if the error is
caused by 'an implicitly closed element'. If you look up the p
element:

http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/index/elements.html
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/text.html#edef-P

You can see that an 'implicitly closed element' might be the case:

-"Start tag: required, End tag: optional"
-"It cannot contain block-level elements (including P itself)."

So no, the blockquote element is not nested inside the p element. The
content inside the blockquote is however, not nested inside an block-
level
element.
No, I didn't say that. The first p element is nested directly inside
the body element. The blockquote element is nested directly inside the
body element. The last p element is not opened. It is missing the <p>
start tag.
Which literature do you suggest? Something from Walt Disney?
This isn't MSHTML.
No, just look at the DOM structure that this code produces. Some
programmers are using the inside of their head. Although, this invalid
code will lead to different DOM structures.
Not if you are using HTML 4.01, and have to take in account
'implicitly closed elements'.
By reading HTML literature, and by knowing which elements that can be
'implicitly closed' and when they are. Or by explicitly close those
elements.
The whole code is generating a report of four errors. Three is
referring to an invalid nesting within the blockquote element.

-"Line 214, Column 5: character data is not allowed here"
-"Line 214, Column 57: document type does not allow element "BR"
here;..."
-"Line 216, Column 12: end tag for "BLOCKQUOTE" which is not
finished ."

The fourth error is referring to the '</p>' end tag, which could
be a result of an invalid nested element. Only you can know that.

-"Line 217, Column 3: end tag for element "P" which is not open ."

The first '<p>' start tag isn't mention at all. It's valid. It's
denoting an empty paragraph. But the validator has pointed you
in the right direction, so it's up to you to figure it out. It's no
need for the validator to make wild guesses. Anyway it's not
a bug.
-"Line 217, Column 3: end tag for element "P" which is not open ."

Isn't that a good enough suggestion that you might have a nesting
problem? Only you can know if that is true or not.
The validator can't know what your intention was. It could be a
nesting problem, or it could be a leftover end tag.
But it isn't hard to make sense of an end tag that is not opened.
There is no need for the validator to make
random guesses.

re: How to Embolden A Blockquote?

"Ben C" <spamspam@spam.eggswrote in message
news:slrngchv5s.6dk.spamspam@bowser.marioworld...<eleven_is_the_number@timothycasey.infowrote:news:cd927f76-797b-4764-b9e8-4753f504e546@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...todescribeneedsBut there is a single solution that if applied without adressing the other
two errors leaves the code in a condition in which no errors remain. Perhaps
this can be taken to indicate a singular problem. You have a point - the
other two are errors; but only because of that single problem with the
nesting.

I just saw your post (news:slrngcerp8.5av.spamspam@bowser.marioworld), which
I think proves that the validator output on this is not a bug.

Thanks for talking about the HTML instead of me...

--
Timothy Casey GPEMC! Conditions apply. See www.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC
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re: How to Embolden A Blockquote?

"Ben C" <spamspam@spam.eggswrote in message
news:slrngcerp8.5av.spamspam@bowser.marioworld...<eleven_is_the_number@timothycasey.infowrote:weQED.

I really think this point you make about the open paragraph element with no
closing tag is sound. I'd forgotten about it because I never intentionally
use it. It's a feature that I believe makes the mark-up unnecessarily
complex to parse - and validation not so straightforward to interpret...

Thanks for your perspective...

--
Timothy Casey GPEMC! Conditions apply. See www.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC
Essays: http://timothycasey.info; http://speed-reading-comprehension.com
Software: http://fieldcraft.biz; Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, Security.
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re: How to Embolden A Blockquote?

"Roy A." <royarneskar@gmail.comwrote in message
news:74e488c1-c340-4674-ba23-43dd8e252305@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...[SNIP][SNIP]

QED

Thanks, that was a great elaboration. I'd forgotten about the self-closing p
element because I never intentionally use it.

--
Timothy Casey GPEMC! Conditions apply. See www.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC
Essays: http://timothycasey.info; http://speed-reading-comprehension.com
Software: http://fieldcraft.biz; Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, Security.
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re: How to Embolden A Blockquote?

On 2008-09-11, Number Eleven - GPEMC! <eleven_is_the_number@timothycasey.infowrote:You mean moving the <pto after the <blockquote>, and the </pto
before the </blockquote>? Yes that would work.
It could be. It's a bit of a grey area how many birds get killed by how
many stones.

re: How to Embolden A Blockquote?

On 2008-09-11, Number Eleven - GPEMC! <eleven_is_the_number@timothycasey.infowrote:
[...]Only the other day someone was asking if there was a tool to warn about
things like unclosed <p>s.

The proper way to do it is with a custom DTD, which Korpela has a page
on his website explaining how to do.

A couple of us also messed around with ways of doing it with regular
expressions and/or sgrep.

re: How to Embolden A Blockquote?

On 10 Sep, 00:23, "Number Eleven - GPEMC!"
<eleven_is_the_num...@timothycasey.infowrote:
Flavell's Law.

re: How to Embolden A Blockquote?

Ben C wrote:Or use that *linter* CSE HTML <del>Validator</del><ins>Linter</ins;-)

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

re: How to Embolden A Blockquote?

On 2008-09-11, Jonathan N. Little <lws4art@central.netwrote:And hope that its <del>features</del<ins>bugs</insserendipitously
correspond to the output you wanted :)

re: How to Embolden A Blockquote?

Ben C wrote:<big>Exactly!</big>

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

re: How to Embolden A Blockquote?

"Andy Dingley" <dingbat@codesmiths.comwrote in message
news:1b368f4b-3cdb-49fb-99ee-78e55a45b338@x35g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...Flavell's Law says nothing of how, only that HTML tutorial pages tend not to
validate. http://allmyfaqs.net/faq.pl?Flavell's_Law

Which doesn't apply to pages intended not to validate because they were
written to show how a particular error is reported - now how is a page like
that supposed to validate if it is meant to flag a problem and specific
errorset by presenting an error set the validator can raise?

Other pages on this site intended to validate, do validate - and in this
respect, the only thing in keeping with Flavell's Law is that the site
doesn't offer a HTML tutorial - not anything in keeping with what you learn
doing a teaching diploma.

--
Timothy Casey GPEMC! Conditions apply. See www.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC
Essays: http://timothycasey.info; http://speed-reading-comprehension.com
Software: http://fieldcraft.biz; Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, Security.
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