Is this Ridiculous? Or not?--HTML Tables

I hired a designer to do a webpage and the code that they sent me back
looks way too long. I am not a developer, but am reading up on web
standards, and when I review the source code for web standard xhtml
pages, everything looks concise. What I have does not. However, I do
read that HTML tables are more robust than CSS because some browsers
don't read CSS tables. So maybe, the code that I got, although is
long, is worth it?

Any opinions? Should I do these tables in CSS or keep them in XHTML?
Below is a sample of the code:

<body>

<table width="756" border="0" align="center" cellpadding="0"
cellspacing="0">

<tr>

<td align="center" valign="top"><table width="752" border="0"
cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0">

<tr>

<td align="left" valign="top"><table width="752" border="0"
cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0">

<tr>

<td width="752" align="left" valign="top"><table
width="752" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0">

<tr>

<td width="752" align="left" valign="top"><table
width="752" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" class="top-
imgbg">

<tr>

<td width="261" align="left" valign="top"><img
src="images/logo.jpg" alt="" width="261" height="95" /></td>

<td align="right" valign="top"><table width="483"
border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0">

<tr>

<td width="483" align="right"
valign="top"><img src="images/telephonenumber-img.gif" alt=""
width="186" height="39" /></td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td height="32" align="right"
valign="bottom"> </td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td align="right" valign="bottom" class="beta"
style="padding-right:21px;">BETA</td>

</tr>

</table></td>

<td width="8" align="left" valign="top"> </
td>

</tr>

</table></td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td height="7" align="left" valign="top"
bgcolor="#b6b9ba"></td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td align="left" valign="top" class="navbg"><table
width="752" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0">

<tr>

<td align="left" valign="middle" style="padding-
left:14px;"><a href="#" class="topmenu">Employers</a <span
class="topmenubar">|</span <a href="#" class="topmenu">Job
Seekers</a <span class="topmenubar">|</span <a href="#"
class="topmenu">About Us</a></td>

<td width="182" align="right" valign="top"><a
href="#"><img src="images/top-button.gif" alt="" width="182"
height="33" border="0" /></a></td>

</tr>

</table></td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td height="6" align="left" valign="top"></td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td align="left" valign="top"><table width="752"
border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0">

<tr>

<td width="556" align="left" valign="top"><table
width="556" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0">

<tr>

<td width="556" align="left" valign="top"
class="header-leftbg"><table width="554" border="0" cellspacing="0"
cellpadding="0">

<tr>

<td width="14" align="left"
valign="top"> </td>

<td align="left" valign="top"
class="headertext">“We help employers <strong>improve their
hiring process</strongand help applicants <strong>better represent
their talents</strong>.”<br /><br /</td>

<td width="13" align="left"
valign="top"> </td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td align="left" valign="top"> </td>

<td align="right" valign="middle"><a
href="#" class="redtext">+Job seekers find out more<br />

</a><a href="#" class="redtext">+Employers
find out more</a></td>

<td align="left" valign="top"> </td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td height="10" colspan="3" align="left"
valign="top"></td>

</tr>

</table></td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td height="8" align="left" valign="top"></td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td align="left" valign="top"><table
width="556" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0">

<tr>

<td width="7" align="left"
valign="top"><img src="images/special-left.gif" alt="" width="7"
height="89" /></td>

<td width="537" align="left" valign="top"
class="specialbg"><table width="539" border="0" cellspacing="0"
cellpadding="0">

<tr>

<td width="539" height="16"
align="left" valign="top"></td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td align="left" valign="top"
class="specialbold">Special Announcements </td>

</tr>

</table></td>

<td width="9" align="right"
valign="top"><img src="images/special-right.gif" alt="" width="9"
height="89" /></td>

</tr>

</table></td>

</tr>

</table></td>

<td width="6" align="left" valign="top"> </
td>

<td width="190" align="left" valign="top"><table
width="190" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0">

<tr>

<td width="190" align="center" valign="middle"
class="header-righttopbg"><table width="100%" border="0"
cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0">

<tr>

<td height="16" align="left"
valign="top"></td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td align="center" valign="top"><a
href="#"><img src="images/quicksignup.gif" alt="" width="172"
height="69" border="0" /></a></td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td height="12" align="left"
valign="top"></td>

</tr>

</table></td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td height="8" align="left" valign="top"></td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td align="left" valign="top"><form id="form"
name="form" method="post" action="">

<table width="190" border="0"
cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0">

<tr>

<td width="190" align="left"
valign="middle" class="memberlogin-bg"><span
class="memberheader">Members Login</span></td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td align="left" valign="top"
class="userbg"><table width="188" border="0" cellspacing="0"
cellpadding="0">

<tr>

<td height="8" colspan="2"
align="left" valign="top"></td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td width="13" align="left"
valign="top"> </td>

<td align="left" valign="middle"
class="user">username</td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td align="left"
valign="top"> </td>

<td align="left" valign="top"><input
name="usernane" type="text" class="orderform" size="26" /></td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td align="left"
valign="top"> </td>

<td align="left" valign="middle"
class="user">password</td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td align="left"
valign="top"> </td>

<td align="left" valign="top"><input
name="password" type="password" class="orderform" size="26" /></td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td height="4" colspan="2"
align="left" valign="top"></td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td align="left"
valign="top"> </td>

<td align="left" valign="top"><input
type="image" src="images/login.gif" name="Submit" value="Submit" /></
td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td align="left"
valign="top"> </td>

<td align="left" valign="middle"><a
href="#" class="forgot">forgot password</a></td>

</tr>

</table></td>

</tr>

</table>

</form>

</td>

</tr>

</table></td>

</tr>

</table></td>

</tr>

</table></td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td align="left" valign="top"><table width="752"
border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0">

<tr>

<td width="752" height="8" align="left" valign="top"></
td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td align="left" valign="top"><table width="752"
border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0">

<tr>

<td width="376" align="left" valign="top"><table
width="376" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0">

<tr>

<td width="376" align="left" valign="middle"
class="bodyheaderbg"><span class="bodyheader">The Employer Advantage</
span></td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td align="left" valign="top" class="body-
bodybg"><table width="374" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0">

<tr>

<td width="7" align="left"
valign="top"> </td>

<td width="367" align="left" valign="top"
class="bodybluebold">Interview more candidates in less time <br />

and improving your hiring decisions.</
td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td align="left" valign="top"> </td>

<td align="left" valign="top"><table
width="367" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0">

<tr>

<td height="8" colspan="2"
align="left" valign="top"></td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td width="135" align="left"
valign="top"><img src="images/body-img01.jpg" alt="" width="127"
height="96" /></td>

In article
<1180570646.549345.67200@q19g2000prn.googlegroups. com>,
Zkidd <zacharykidd@gmail.comwrote:

Quote:

I hired a designer to do a webpage and the code that they sent me back
looks way too long. I am not a developer, but am reading up on web
standards, and when I review the source code for web standard xhtml
pages, everything looks concise. What I have does not. However, I do
read that HTML tables are more robust than CSS because some browsers
don't read CSS tables. So maybe, the code that I got, although is
long, is worth it?
>
Any opinions? Should I do these tables in CSS or keep them in XHTML?
Below is a sample of the code:
>
<body>
>
<table width="756" border="0" align="center" cellpadding="0"
cellspacing="0">
>
<tr>

O dear! It is hopeless, sorry.

Most of the length is white space and nothing to worry about in
itself. But it is incorrect markup even from a strictly technical
view, full of mistakes.

But worse, it is misconceived in other ways. From the choice of
the doctype, I presume XHTML, to the use of deprecated
presentational mark up, to the likely quite unnecessary use of
tables for layout.

As it happens, it is "too long" compared to much sparer code that
would do the job for so little material as I can see.

--
dorayme

Scripsit Zkidd:

Quote:

I hired a designer to do a webpage and the code that they sent me back
looks way too long.

I'm afraid there's nothing you can do except pay him out and find a better
designer, unless the contract is well-written and specifies positive
criteria for the deliverable, and it most probably isn't and doesn't.

Quote:

I am not a developer, but am reading up on web
standards, and when I review the source code for web standard xhtml
pages, everything looks concise.

You should forget XHTML unless you're really doing XSL or something similar.

Quote:

However, I do
read that HTML tables are more robust than CSS

There's some truth (actually, a lot more than many people here are willing
to admit) in it, but...

Quote:

because some browsers don't read CSS tables.

.... not because of that, since it's not a matter of "CSS tables" but CSS
positioning.

However, when tables are used for layout _in wrong ways_, as they usually
are, they result in rigid, confusing pages with poor usability and very poor
maintainability.

A single layout table without attributes is usually OK. But designers use
nested tables, pixel-valued widths and heights, colspan and rowspan
attributes, and dummy cells.

Quote:

Below is a sample of the code:

As usual, you should have posted the URL.

Quote:

<table width="756"

That's a common indicator of using layout tables wrong.

Quote:

<td align="center" valign="top"><table width="752" border="0"

Here we go into nesting tables...

Quote:

<td align="left" valign="top"><table width="752" border="0"

.... deep into sh...

--
Jukka K. Korpela ("Yucca")
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/

On 31 May, 01:17, Zkidd <zacharyk...@gmail.comwrote:

Quote:

I hired a designer to do a webpage and the code that they sent me back
looks way too long.

It's crap code that looks like the common coding style of the late
'90s. Your designer is lacking in skills, but then almost all web
designers are. Most are untrained, the trained ones are usually worse
(The Open University was teaching this coding style at least until
last year). If you start talking about stuff like "web standards",
then there's almost no-one who will even understand what you're on
about -- the local community here is unusually forward looking.

As to your contract, then I imagine you're stuffed. Did you _ask_ for
code of a particular quality beforehand?

As to your designer, then they're probably a keen little bod who's
simply ignorant of how bad their output is. Send them over here.

As to your code, then it's no worse than most sites in the world and
it'll probably work fine (for typical low standards of "fine"). We'd
need to see the whole site in action before judging further.

Don't post code fragments either, post URLs to live sites. We can see
the code to a site much more easily than we can make a site out of
code. Some problems (such as server config) are also only apparent
when studied in "vivo".

In article
<1180605941.612830.79630@m36g2000hse.googlegroups. com>,
Andy Dingley <dingbat@codesmiths.comwrote:

Quote:

As to your contract, then I imagine you're stuffed. Did you _ask_ for
code of a particular quality beforehand?

The code is stuffed full of errors even under a 3.2 doc type.
That would be enough on this occasion to demand a rewrite.

--
dorayme

On 31 May, 13:11, dorayme <doraymeRidT...@optusnet.com.auwrote:

Quote:

The code is stuffed full of errors even under a 3.2 doc type.
That would be enough on this occasion to demand a rewrite.

Why? If the contract asks for "a web site" and the "typical web site"
and "common industry practice" is to build this sort of quality (the
example quoted isn't _unusually_ bad), then what contractual grounds
do you have for complaint?

If I buy a Ford car then I reasonably expect it to have wheels,
but I don't expect the build quality of an Aston Martin.

In article
<1180615407.111523.88390@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.c om>,
Andy Dingley <dingbat@codesmiths.comwrote:

Quote:

On 31 May, 13:11, dorayme <doraymeRidT...@optusnet.com.auwrote:
>

Quote:

The code is stuffed full of errors even under a 3.2 doc type.
That would be enough on this occasion to demand a rewrite.

>
Why? If the contract asks for "a web site" and the "typical web site"
and "common industry practice" is to build this sort of quality (the
example quoted isn't _unusually_ bad), then what contractual grounds
do you have for complaint?
>
If I buy a Ford car then I reasonably expect it to have wheels,
but I don't expect the build quality of an Aston Martin.

Andy, have you actually copy pasted the quoted code and made
rudimentary checks? I was surprised how many errors it reported.
At least in my text editor. And i charitably added a
</tr></tableand a 3.2 doctype too.

More like ordering a Ford and getting an East German Trabant.

--
dorayme

Zkidd wrote:

Quote:

I hired a designer to do a webpage and the code that they sent me back
looks way too long.
Any opinions? Should I do these tables in CSS or keep them in XHTML?
Below is a sample of the code:

If you like using CSS then by all means....

The real problem with such an HTML table is that it has been generated
by a program. If a human being 1. types, 2. copies, and 3. pastes to
get a table layout it doesn't look _nearly_ that bad. The indentation
done by such programs to identify nesting actually makes thing worse.

I have been working on a utility to clean up such nonsense and also
the nonsense generated by "save as HTML" in some word processing
programs, but the example you posted is not cleaning up at all.
Back to the drawing board.

On 31 May, 14:06, Gary Peek <mylastn...@mycompanyname.comwrote:

Quote:

The indentation done by such programs to identify nesting actually makes thing worse.

Indentation is "pretty printing" for the sake of human authors or
readers. The machines certainly don't need or use it, they've got
SGML / HTML rules.

Nor is excessive whitespace a real problem with a web page, beyond
mild verbosity.

Quote:

I have been working on a utility to clean up such nonsense

Have you ever encountered HTML Tidy?

If so, why do you need to build something else instead?

On 2007-05-31, Andy Dingley <dingbat@codesmiths.comwrote:

Quote:

On 31 May, 13:11, dorayme <doraymeRidT...@optusnet.com.auwrote:
>

Quote:

>The code is stuffed full of errors even under a 3.2 doc type.
>That would be enough on this occasion to demand a rewrite.

>
Why? If the contract asks for "a web site" and the "typical web site"
and "common industry practice" is to build this sort of quality (the
example quoted isn't _unusually_ bad), then what contractual grounds
do you have for complaint?

Worth slipping the words "standards complaint", and "must validate" in
the contract somewhere.

Quote:

If I buy a Ford car then I reasonably expect it to have wheels,
but I don't expect the build quality of an Aston Martin.

I thought Aston Martins _were_ Fords? Until recently anyway.

In article <slrnf5u32o.t9o.spamspam@bowser.marioworld>,
Ben C <spamspam@spam.eggswrote:

Quote:

On 2007-05-31, Andy Dingley <dingbat@codesmiths.comwrote:

Quote:

On 31 May, 13:11, dorayme <doraymeRidT...@optusnet.com.auwrote:

Quote:

The code is stuffed full of errors even under a 3.2 doc type.
That would be enough on this occasion to demand a rewrite.

Why? If the contract asks for "a web site" and the "typical web site"
and "common industry practice" is to build this sort of quality (the
example quoted isn't _unusually_ bad), then what contractual grounds
do you have for complaint?

>
Worth slipping the words "standards complaint", and "must validate" in
the contract somewhere.
>

Or at least, "not more than 6 validation mistakes"

Quote:

If I buy a Ford car then I reasonably expect it to have wheels,
but I don't expect the build quality of an Aston Martin.

>
I thought Aston Martins _were_ Fords? Until recently anyway.

I think the other way around, Ford taking over properly after
1991.

--
dorayme

On 2007-05-31, dorayme <doraymeRidThis@optusnet.com.auwrote:

Quote:

In article <slrnf5u32o.t9o.spamspam@bowser.marioworld>,
Ben C <spamspam@spam.eggswrote:
>

Quote:

>On 2007-05-31, Andy Dingley <dingbat@codesmiths.comwrote:

Quote:

On 31 May, 13:11, dorayme <doraymeRidT...@optusnet.com.auwrote:
>
>The code is stuffed full of errors even under a 3.2 doc type.
>That would be enough on this occasion to demand a rewrite.
>
Why? If the contract asks for "a web site" and the "typical web site"
and "common industry practice" is to build this sort of quality (the
example quoted isn't _unusually_ bad), then what contractual grounds
do you have for complaint?

>>
>Worth slipping the words "standards complaint", and "must validate" in
>the contract somewhere.
>>

>
Or at least, "not more than 6 validation mistakes"

I meant "standards compliant" of course.

Quote:

If I buy a Ford car then I reasonably expect it to have wheels,
but I don't expect the build quality of an Aston Martin.

>>
>I thought Aston Martins _were_ Fords? Until recently anyway.

>
I think the other way around, Ford taking over properly after
1991.

I meant even more recently than that. Ford seem to be getting rid of it
again:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6442101.stm

Even so I still wouldn't expect the build quality of a 2006 AM to be
quite as good as that of a proper Ford.

In article <slrnf5ui7t.t9o.spamspam@bowser.marioworld>,
Ben C <spamspam@spam.eggswrote:

Quote:

I thought Aston Martins _were_ Fords? Until recently anyway.

I think the other way around, Ford taking over properly after
1991.

>
I meant even more recently than that. Ford seem to be getting rid of it
again:
>
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6442101.stm

You see out of touch I am? Got to rush... my chauffeur in the
Rolls is beeping me...

--
dorayme

On 31 May, 19:21, Ben C <spams...@spam.eggswrote:

Quote:

Worth slipping the words "standards complaint", and "must validate" in
the contract somewhere.

It's in the nature of contracts that you can't "slip things into them"
after the fact.

Quote:

If I buy a Ford car then I reasonably expect it to have wheels,
but I don't expect the build quality of an Aston Martin.

>
I thought Aston Martins _were_ Fords? Until recently anyway.

Not any more 8-) Why do you think I picked those two?

Andy Dingley wrote:

Quote:

Indentation is "pretty printing" for the sake of human authors...

Understood. What I meant was pretty <readable.

Quote:

Have you ever encountered HTML Tidy?
If so, why do you need to build something else instead?

Nothing I have found is nearly aggressive enough at removing the
"crud". The program I wrote strips out nearly everything and puts
back the simplest HTML tags that make the document readable. This
may or may not be useful to many people, but I know a few for whom
it is very useful, including me. _The program is already written_
and works well for its original purpose, but the indentation issue
might be a secondary use.

Perhaps HTML Tidy works well on the OP's markup?

Is this Ridiculous? Or not?--HTML Tables

re: Is this Ridiculous? Or not?--HTML Tables

re: Is this Ridiculous? Or not?--HTML Tables

re: Is this Ridiculous? Or not?--HTML Tables

re: Is this Ridiculous? Or not?--HTML Tables

re: Is this Ridiculous? Or not?--HTML Tables

re: Is this Ridiculous? Or not?--HTML Tables

re: Is this Ridiculous? Or not?--HTML Tables

re: Is this Ridiculous? Or not?--HTML Tables

re: Is this Ridiculous? Or not?--HTML Tables

re: Is this Ridiculous? Or not?--HTML Tables

re: Is this Ridiculous? Or not?--HTML Tables

re: Is this Ridiculous? Or not?--HTML Tables

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re: Is this Ridiculous? Or not?--HTML Tables

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