Form problem and Firefox

Hey All,

In some of my pages I use a quick form to give navigational button choices,
rather than links. One of them is this:

<FORM name="nulltry" enctype="multipart/form-data"
action="http://www.mysite.com/cgi-bin/enter_one.pl" method="POST">
<INPUT type="submit" value=" Enter Another ">
</form>

The hiccup that Firefox gives me, yet IE does not is:

*Malformed multipart POST: data truncated
*Compilation failed in require at enter_one.pl line 6.
*BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at enter_one line 6.


So the quick fix was to add this line to my form:

<INPUT type="hidden" name="notused" value="1">

and the problem goes away.

But I guess I would like to know what happened. Was I wrong to try and use
a form as a navigational tool? Is my fix acceptable enough? And why does
Firefox complain while IE does not?
Would really appreciate any input.

Thanks ahead as always.

Daniel

re: Form problem and Firefox

"Daniel Kaplan" <NoSPam@NoSpam.com> wrote:
[color=blue]
> In some of my pages I use a quick form to give navigational button
> choices, rather than links.[/color]

Stop doing so. Links want to be links. See
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www/links.html
[color=blue]
> action="http://www.mysite.com/cgi-bin/enter_one.pl"[/color]

Don't use fake URLs, especially when they look like real URLs.
[color=blue]
> *Malformed multipart POST: data truncated[/color]

Such things may happen. Someone might be interested in analyzing your problem
in some other group, if you gave a real URL that demonstrates it. Of course,
the action attribute must refer to something that is capable of handling the
submitted data; you are not giving much facts about this. And it isn't an
HTML problem. And the problem vanishes when you stop creating it, as far as
forms as urrogates for links are considered.
[color=blue]
> But I guess I would like to know what happened.[/color]

Wouldn't it be better to fix your pages first?
[color=blue]
> Was I wrong to try and
> use a form as a navigational tool?[/color]

Yes.
[color=blue]
> Is my fix acceptable enough?[/color]

No.
[color=blue]
> And why
> does Firefox complain while IE does not?[/color]

When such things happen, Firefox is usually right.

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html

re: Form problem and Firefox

I would not recommend using a FORM this way because buttons are
expected to perform some action on user-submitted data, not as
navigational devices. Additionally, substituting another element for
navigation causes your link to lose desirable intrinsic functionality
of anchors (such as "open in new window.") That said, there are many
aesthetic reasons why you would _not_ want an anchor tag to render as
it normally would, particularly for navigation bars (including, but not
limited to, those utilizing javascript to produce a "drop-down"
sub-menu effect). In these cases, styling the A tag is effective.

Since this goes against my alter-ego, the self-satisfied smugclown who
posted earlier, it's time for a reality check. If you note that 99.9%
of websites developed professionally today violate his "Links Want To
Be Links" manifesto, you quickly come to the conclusion that we are
clearly dealing with two worlds here--Jukka's and the real one. If you
want to immerse yourself into the experience of a website that hasn't
evolved since the mid 1990's, by all means visit Jukka's and uphold his
tenets. But if you want to employ modern styling techniques of real
websites, visit anything else. Visit, for example,
http://www.webtrends.com and notice the shocking--shocking!--use of
styled anchors without underlines! Note the horrifying use of dropdown
navigation under the "Popular Downloads" section! Witness the appalling
lack of borders around navigable images! Finally, become astonished at
your ability to somehow navigate the site with ease. Now rinse and
repeat for every other well-designed, attractive site in the modern
world.

re: Form problem and Firefox

Yukky Korpulent wrote:[color=blue]
> tenets. But if you want to employ modern styling techniques of real
> Visit, for example,
> http://www.webtrends.com and notice the shocking--shocking!--use of
> styled anchors without underlines! Note the horrifying use of dropdown
> navigation under the "Popular Downloads" section![/color]

The ones that don't do anything if I have Javascript turned off?

re: Form problem and Firefox

Feel free to turn it off, sport. Turn off your monitor for a real
treat.

re: Form problem and Firefox

"Harlan Messinger" <hmessinger.removethis@comcast.net> wrote in message
[color=blue]
> The ones that don't do anything if I have Javascript turned off?[/color]

Ok, I obviosuly started something here, and really, I am sorry.

But on the realistic side of things, there are times when a button is just a
button, IMHO. A button can be used as choices "Add Another" or "Done".
Especially if your web site is behaving more like an application in certain
areas. If you talk to "just plain users" (no one who would be posting in
these newsgroups) very few of them would be able to say ... Oh well a check
box shoudl just represent this, a link is only for that, etc. etc.

And they'll still navigate through a website that violate many of these
rules without a second's hesitation.

As for Yukky's comment:[color=blue][color=green]
>>Feel free to turn it off, sport. Turn off your monitor for a real treat.[/color][/color]

Technically he's right, but for now, since I don't have the option (money)
of creating a website that satisfies every possible browser option (like HP
does) I don't want to rely on Javascript! One day I hope to have the funds
to really make the website so every single proabable browser feature is
covered, and covered in case it's turned off!

Until then, I have to make due (or is it do), and really, buttons for what
I'm doing just look nicer, and have gotten more postive feedback in testing
to an audience that didn't know what the website was about.

So at the risk of making it sound like I am trying to egg on a flame war
(please believe me, that is not my intention) can I narrow my question (just
to CMA) down to this:

Is there anything "technically" wrong with the form below?

<FORM name="nulltry" enctype="multipart/form-data"
action="http://www.mysite.com/cgi-bin/enter_one.pl" method="POST">
<INPUT type="hidden" name="notused" value="1">
<INPUT type="submit" value=" Enter Another ">
</form>

Many thanks again, to "everyone", for all their input.

re: Form problem and Firefox

Daniel Kaplan wrote:[color=blue]
> Hey All,
>
> In some of my pages I use a quick form to give navigational button choices,
> rather than links. One of them is this:
>
> <FORM name="nulltry" enctype="multipart/form-data"
> action="http://www.mysite.com/cgi-bin/enter_one.pl" method="POST">
> <INPUT type="submit" value=" Enter Another ">
> </form>
>
> The hiccup that Firefox gives me, yet IE does not is:
>
> *Malformed multipart POST: data truncated
> *Compilation failed in require at enter_one.pl line 6.
> *BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at enter_one line 6.
>
> So the quick fix was to add this line to my form:
>
> <INPUT type="hidden" name="notused" value="1">
>
> and the problem goes away.[/color]

My first reaction is that the problem was caused by the lack of a name
attribute on the Submit button.

re: Form problem and Firefox

Yukky Korpulent wrote:[color=blue]
> Feel free to turn it off, sport. Turn off your monitor for a real
> treat.
>[/color]
OK, I'll add you to the list of web designers who imagines that, despite
the enormous flexibility that browsers give users in terms of
configuration (often for very good reasons and often because of user
demand for those very options), that everyone configures, or should
configure, their browsers just the way he does anyway.

re: Form problem and Firefox

Daniel,

Nothing, technically, is "wrong" with your approach. You might even be
able to "fix" it easier by supplying a name attribute to your submit
INPUT, e.g. <INPUT type=submit name=dummy value="Enter Another"> My
recommendation against it is purely from an aesthetic standpoint in
both web design and usability. You likely already know, but where you
often see such buttons as "Save and Add Another" or "Detail" when they
are inside a FORM that is collecting input, e.g.

<form action="blah" method="post">
<input type="submit" name="action" value="Save">
<input type="submit" name="action" value="Save and Add Another">
<input type="submit" name="action" value="Detail">
... followed by input fields to gather data ...
</form>

where the appropriate response may be determined server-side from the
submitted value of "action." But it seems to me (and you're welcome to
disagree) that having a FORM for the sole purpose of making a button
act like a link is jumping thru some hoops unnecessarily. You never
run across that on the web, while you DO run across styled anchors all
the time. IMHO it's a better approach to make your web app act more
like a web app than a client app. My final point is that I'm not
trying to push javascript on you at all (it's not needed at all for
styled anchors, I don't know if that got lost in my Jukka rant.)

Good luck,
YK

re: Form problem and Firefox

And I'll add you to the list of clowns who can't comprehend the point.

re: Form problem and Firefox

Yukky Korpulent wrote:[color=blue]
> And I'll add you to the list of clowns who can't comprehend the point.[/color]

Who?

re: Form problem and Firefox

NoSPam@NoSpam.com says...[color=blue]
> Hey All,
>
> In some of my pages I use a quick form to give navigational button choices,
> rather than links. One of them is this:
>
> <FORM name="nulltry" enctype="multipart/form-data"
> action="http://www.mysite.com/cgi-bin/enter_one.pl" method="POST">
> <INPUT type="submit" value=" Enter Another ">
> </form>
>
> The hiccup that Firefox gives me, yet IE does not is:
>
> *Malformed multipart POST: data truncated
> *Compilation failed in require at enter_one.pl line 6.
> *BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at enter_one line 6.[/color]

Appart from the arguments put forward as to why the use of a form instead
of a link is A Bad Idea, try getting rid of the:
enctype="multipart/form-data"
as your form isn't multipart if there is only a submit in it.

GM

re: Form problem and Firefox

Yukky Korpulent wrote:[color=blue]
> And I'll add you to the list of clowns who can't comprehend the point.
>[/color]
The point that it's a good idea not to take into consideration whether
lots of people can't use your web site? You're absolutely correct, I
can't comprehend that point.

re: Form problem and Firefox

You got it half right. You can't comprehend the point.

I hate to be the one to bring the news to you, but beyond this little
group of circle-jerking Jukka stooges who cling to his outdated dictums
about what "ought" to be done, lies a world that has somehow managed to
evolve and move on without them. We don't mean to make you irrelevant,
but that's just the way it is. Sorry.

Come explore it, you might like what you see. Turn on your javascript
for an even better experience.

Yucky,
Yukky.

re: Form problem and Firefox

Yukky Korpulent wrote:[color=blue]
> You got it half right. You can't comprehend the point.
>
> I hate to be the one to bring the news to you, but beyond this little
> group of circle-jerking Jukka stooges who cling to his outdated dictums
> about what "ought" to be done, lies a world that has somehow managed to
> evolve and move on without them.[/color]

Yes, a whole world whose web sites look great but can't be used by a lot
of people.
[color=blue]
> We don't mean to make you irrelevant,
> but that's just the way it is. Sorry.[/color]

This isn't a war, and it's baffling why you're framing it as one. The
proportion of Web users who can use you web site ought to be a major
consideration. Each web site provider will balance that consideration
against other considerations. It isn't a matter of either-or, and it
isn't a matter of one way winning. Now do you understand the point?
[color=blue]
> Come explore it, you might like what you see. Turn on your javascript
> for an even better experience.[/color]

Why do you care whether other people have their Javascript *on*? Mind
your business about how other people use their own computers.

re: Form problem and Firefox

I didn't make the world, that's just the way it is. Learn to adapt, or
suffer in bitterness about how people aren't doing things the way you
want them to. If you can't grasp this, I can do no more to help you.

Yucky,
Yukka.

re: Form problem and Firefox

Yukky Korpulent wrote:[color=blue]
> I didn't make the world, that's just the way it is. Learn to adapt, or
> suffer in bitterness about how people aren't doing things the way you
> want them to.[/color]

I'm not suffering in bitterness. I'm just not using certain websites.
Whether that's of concern to you is your business. Regardless of your
personal ranking of considerations like breadth of audience, it's still
a consideration that people should be aware of, and it's ridiculous for
you to claim that it shouldn't be anyone's consideration at all.

re: Form problem and Firefox

> I'm just not using certain websites

You go, girl! Stick it to the man.

----

Yucky,
Yukky.

re: Form problem and Firefox

Yukky Korpulent wrote:[color=blue][color=green]
>> I'm just not using certain websites[/color]
>
> You go, girl! Stick it to the man.[/color]

You really are incapable of thinking of this in any terms other than
adversarial ones, aren't you?

<plonk>

re: Form problem and Firefox

Once upon a time *Yukky Korpulent* wrote:[color=blue]
> You got it half right. You can't comprehend the point.
>
> I hate to be the one to bring the news to you, but beyond this little
> group of circle-jerking Jukka stooges who cling to his outdated dictums
> about what "ought" to be done, lies a world that has somehow managed to
> evolve and move on without them. We don't mean to make you irrelevant,
> but that's just the way it is. Sorry.
>
> Come explore it, you might like what you see. Turn on your javascript
> for an even better experience.[/color]

Who?

*Read about Ga-Ga Google Groups and Netiquette*
http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/

--
/Arne

"I travel cross the country and talked to the most competent persons,
and I can assure you that the computer is a fashion craze that will not
stand the whole year.
(Editor for business literature, Prentice Hall, 1957)

re: Form problem and Firefox

To further the education of mankind, "Yukky Korpulent" <cis148@yahoo.com>
declaimed:
[color=blue][color=green]
>> I'm just not using certain websites[/color]
>
> You go, girl! Stick it to the man.
>
> ----
>
> Yucky,
> Yukky.[/color]

Uh oh - ego trip. I seem to notice you object to the same attributes most
objectionable in yourself. Wake up!

--
Neredbojias
Infinity can have limits.