Hi.
[color=blue]
> Here I diverge with you. I ALWAYS - no matter what - split the database
> off from the app and presentation layer.[/color]
Unfortunately, you seem to be in the minority. I worked for a very large
corporation after it had had multiple mergers of three very large
corporations that had locations mostly in the U.S., but around the world,
too, and when we did an assessment of what IT assets we had, what IT assets
could be merged, and what could be replaced with what was considered "best
practices," I got the opportunity to view tens and tens of thousands of
Access databases that had been built in Access 2.0 through 2002 over the
years by thousands of employees and contractors of the three corporations.
For the most part, these were unsplit database applications with no table
links, and no VBA code using either DSN's or DSN-less connections.
As for small- and medium-sized businesses, in all the years I've worked in
IT, I've only once been E-mailed an Access database "to look at" that was
zipped without my giving prior instructions on how to do so -- and some of
these files were more than 100 MB. Not one database was ever split or even
compacted, unless I gave the owner step-by-step instructions on how to
compact it first. Non-IT and non-Access people just don't know the proper
care and feeding of Access databases.
[color=blue]
> Well, it doesn't necessarily crash (too often for my taste), and when it
> does IT usually doesn't get called in (if the original developer is
> available).[/color]
My experience has been that the original developer hasn't worked for the
company in at least two or three years, and he was not an IT developer, so
knew nothing about database design, software design, or documentation. But
he built something that saved the department hours and hours of labor, so
they kept the application if not the employee. The department eventually
needs to upgrade the application to incorporate more functionality or,
sadly, needs IT to fix a corrupted database file that the department just
can't do without. This latter situation is the more common scenario, which
is one of the reasons IT has such a poor opinion of Access. They only hear
about the Access databases when disaster strikes, so they assume that this
is the state Access is always in.
[color=blue]
> True. Or meetings were held upfront, and IT declined to cooperate from
> the beginning, and won't help now.[/color]
Or IT said, "We'll do it next year for $20,000 of your department's budget."
Way too late and way too much, so IT didn't get the job to build the
application.
[color=blue]
> From what I've seen, big companies rarely have competent developers of ANY
> kind on staff. DBAs and business analysts and project managers, yes. But
> a talented Java or VB or Access developer is usually going to be a
> freelancer.[/color]
My experience has been just the opposite. I've always worked on hand-picked
teams, many of whom were corporate employees that were incredibly talented
IT experts and software developers. They all seem to have started out as
contractors or interns though, except for me, because the corporate IT
policy for all three of the corporations before and after the mergers was
that they would never hire someone unless he'd first worked for them as a
contractor or intern, had proven his abilities, and had been evaluated
favorably before bringing him into the corporate culture. To them, their
corporate culture is what sets them apart from other successful
corporations, so they won't hire someone with just talent, because he also
has to fit in well with the rest of the team and their "image." I was one
of the rare exceptions they hired directly as a full-time IT employee
because, at the time of my hiring, I had a number of other job offers in the
works, including a dream job, so offering me a "maybe" 90-day position as a
contractor with no benefits -- and who could be fired for no reason and
without notice -- wasn't going to interest me. (When I interviewed for this
corporate job and was asked if I'd accept a contractor position, I explained
exactly why I wouldn't accept it. I expected the manager interviewing me to
say, "That B.S. degree listed on your resume doesn't really stand for
Bachelor of Science, does it?" ;-) I'm sure she checked up on me and found
I wasn't making anything up.)
[color=blue]
> Some of the Access/SQL Server/Oracle apps I've created have been taken
> "internal" and are now maintained by IT, but they're rarely improved, and
> I've never seen one rewritten. (not that it doesn't happen, just not to
> me)[/color]
Then you are the dream contractor that every department manager who hires IT
contractors hopes to find, but usually can't because he's too busy focusing
on the cheapest rates for software developers, only to find that "cheaper"
doesn't mean that it costs less, and doesn't mean it will be of the same
quality, and doesn't mean it will keep the same schedule for development,
testing, and implementation.
[color=blue][color=green]
>> Access is incredibly customizable, and I have to admit that I use it
>> a lot to automate tasks that have nothing to do with data storage on
>> Windows computers.[/color]
>
> Yes. What kinds of things did you build?[/color]
Mostly utilities to speed up my work and the work of our customers. I built
a utilty that scans all the Access files across the network, determines
which version each was created in and whether security has been implemented,
determines whether it's a candidate for conversion to Microsoft Access 2003,
and if so, to automatically convert it (even when security is implemented,
as the database owner's User ID, password, and database password can be
determined programmatically) and recompile the code with the Access 2003
libraries, and, if it's not a candidate for conversion, to create a report
listing the similar databases so that a human can determine which one is the
database file currently in use that needs to be converted to Access 2003.
I've also built a few Web crawlers, record updaters for online databases,
automated FTP utilities, a few data normalization utilities, an automated
Access application builder (the table schemas and relationships must already
be designed, but it builds data input/edit forms and subforms, common
buttons and other functionalities, and cleans up many of the default
settings to be more user-friendly), a few automated database security
utilities, an automated MDE to MDB file converter, data migration utilities
that automatically convert Oracle schemas and data storage from earlier
versions of Oracle to Oracle 9i on a Unix cluster with failover, data
warehouse ETL utilities, and probably a few more that I've long since
forgotten about.
HTH.
Gunny
See
http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs.
See
http://www.Access.QBuilt.com for Microsoft Access tips and tutorials.
http://www.Access.QBuilt.com/html/ex...ributors2.html for contact
info.
"DFS" <nospam@dfs_.com> wrote in message
news:ROpdg.71$eI4.62@bignews2.bellsouth.net...[color=blue]
> '69 Camaro wrote:[color=green]
>> Hi, Mell.
>>[color=darkred]
>>> The bigger companies, I would think they
>>> would not want to just use Access with native jet unless BE on SQL,
>>> etc?[/color]
>>
>> One would think so, but that's generally not the case. The bigger
>> companies have IT departments that build the in-house software
>> applications, but their schedules are so backlogged that many
>> departments will use their own non-IT employees to build a database
>> application or use their department budget to hire a contractor to
>> build the application. Sometimes these applications use the
>> company's "official" database engine for the back end, but more often
>> than not, it's Jet.[/color]
>
> Yep. That's EXACTLY the situation I've encountered, and have worked under
> for many years. It's pretty much ideal, I think, 'cause the ball is in
> your court. You often end up being the business analyst, data architect,
> DBA, data analyst, interface designer, and report writer. What that can
> mean is you end up being almost indispensable.
>
>[color=green]
>> And it's not a split database, either.[/color]
>
> Here I diverge with you. I ALWAYS - no matter what - split the database
> off from the app and presentation layer.
>
>
>[color=green]
>> Everyone in the department is using the application, then other
>> departments discover its usefulness, and they start sharing it, too,
>> since the Access file is in a shared directory on the network. The
>> application becomes mission-critical, it crashes, gets corrupted, and
>> IT is called in.[/color]
>
> Well, it doesn't necessarily crash (too often for my taste), and when it
> does IT usually doesn't get called in (if the original developer is
> available).
>
>[color=green]
>> IT starts screaming bloody murder, because they
>> were never consulted about building the mission-critical application,
>> so it wasn't built with any standard practices of software
>> development in mind.[/color]
>
> True. Or meetings were held upfront, and IT declined to cooperate from
> the beginning, and won't help now.
>
>[color=green]
>> IT has to drop everything to fix the
>> mission-critical application, which usually means redesigning and
>> building it from scratch -- in IT's software development environment
>> of choice, which is rarely Access because they don't have any
>> competent Access developers.[/color]
>
> From what I've seen, big companies rarely have competent developers of ANY
> kind on staff. DBAs and business analysts and project managers, yes. But
> a talented Java or VB or Access developer is usually going to be a
> freelancer.
>
> Some of the Access/SQL Server/Oracle apps I've created have been taken
> "internal" and are now maintained by IT, but they're rarely improved, and
> I've never seen one rewritten. (not that it doesn't happen, just not to
> me)
>
>
>
>[color=green][color=darkred]
>>> A BIG THANK YOU to those SMART SOFTWARE ENGINEERS. I just love this
>>> program[/color]
>>
>> Access is incredibly customizable, and I have to admit that I use it
>> a lot to automate tasks that have nothing to do with data storage on
>> Windows computers.[/color]
>
> Yes. What kinds of things did you build?
>
> I built an Access front-end solely to automate an email process. The
> users were sitting there and manually cutting and pasting email addresses
> from a spreadsheet, manually adding an attachment, and manually sending
> it. Hundreds of times a week! In a few hours I had a small system for
> them, and they were clicking to import the entire email list, clicking to
> choose the folder where the attachments were stored, and clicking to
> auto-attach and auto-send the emails - with fewer errors and less effort.
> That was a big ROI for the client - I should have charged by the
> transaction:)
>
> I also wrote a rudimentary web spider in Access, a simple ftp automation
> program, and an ebay search tool.
>
> Modules | New | Tools | Reference, and the world is yours.
>
>
>[color=green]
>> And the ability to do "quickie" prototypes to
>> show a proof of concept is invaluable.[/color]
>
>
>[color=green]
>> HTH.
>> Gunny
>>
>> See
http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs.
>> See
http://www.Access.QBuilt.com for Microsoft Access tips and
>> tutorials.
>>
http://www.Access.QBuilt.com/html/ex...ributors2.html for
>> contact info.
>>
>> "Mell via AccessMonster.com" <u18304@uwe> wrote in message
>> news:60b1155dc1814@uwe...[color=darkred]
>>> Yea, you are not alone with your experience in this or perseption. I
>>> hear the
>>> same from others as well.
>>> I find that some businesses will pay (not alot), but just want a
>>> basic tracking system with some bells. The bigger companies, I would
>>> think they would not want to just use Access with native jet unless
>>> BE on SQL, etc? I must say that the real experts are the ones that
>>> originally created this software. Ms Access has so many things that
>>> it can do that it's hard to know
>>> it from head to toe. Nevertheless, I feel if an application has been
>>> created
>>> for the customers needs and it is functional, it has served it's
>>> purpose and
>>> A BIG THANK YOU to those SMART SOFTWARE ENGINEERS. I just love this
>>> program,
>>> I use this board for questions alot, I am no expert, but I don't
>>> give up either, if I don't know, it's certainly not hard to ask or
>>> look up. '69 Camaro wrote:
>>>> Hi, Mell.
>>>>
>>>>> Tell me, is the below link your site/business/individual?
>>>>
>>>> Access.QBuilt.com is one of five commercial and non-commercial
>>>> subdomains for Q-Built Solutions, a small business which employs
>>>> five consultants. I'm
>>>> one of these consultants.
>>>>
>>>>> People tell me that most indivual owners/developers - Ms Access
>>>>> usually own
>>>>> there own business as a second job b/c not reliable enough for
>>>>> steady income
>>>>> (keep in mind) individual not big boys............... Is this true?
>>>>
>>>> That's been my experience, too. The market is so flooded with
>>>> people who aren't yet competent in Access -- but pass themselves
>>>> off as expert Access developers because they can use the built-in
>>>> wizards to create forms and reports to dazzle computer-challenged
>>>> business owners and managers -- that many of the ones who are
>>>> competent Access developers work in other technologies or
>>>> industries for their main income. Businesses just aren't willing
>>>> to pay money for what's widely percieved as "so easy that any monkey
>>>> can do it," and "tinker toy" applications that cause a wide range of
>>>> problems, when, in fact, it's the lack of competence of the Access
>>>> developers (hired 'em "real cheap!") and occasionally the network
>>>> administrators who have caused the vast majority of the problems
>>>> being blamed on Access.
>>>>
>>>> The only money I've ever made from working with Access was several
>>>> years ago
>>>> when I was a corporate Access developer for a little more than a
>>>> year. I'm
>>>> an Oracle DBA consultant now for larger businesses, but I also do
>>>> computer networking/administration and occasional database-driven
>>>> Web sites powered by MySQL for small businesses (only because MySQL
>>>> is free with their Web hosting packages).
>>>>
>>>> I've seen the tremendous need in small- and medium-sized businesses
>>>> for small, stable database applications that Access would be
>>>> perfect for, but almost none of these business owners are willing
>>>> to pay for that database application, even when they know the
>>>> computer automation will save thousands
>>>> of man-hours per year. Well, some are willing to pay a high school
>>>> student
>>>> (who has no interest in computers or databases) to spend thousands
>>>> of hours
>>>> to build Access applications that don't work very well -- because
>>>> these students work for minimum wage, which is a whole lot cheaper
>>>> (at least in these business owners' minds) than spending hundreds
>>>> of dollars for an expert to build it correctly in a matter of a few
>>>> hours. You want to help these people, but you can't convince them that
>>>> they need a
>>>> competent Access developer because they firmly believe that they've
>>>> got a bargain database application, and it works just fine --
>>>> except for the long
>>>> list of things that don't, including the safeguarding of data
>>>> integrity. But it's "good enough" for them.
>>>>
>>>> But I've seen worse. Some business owners think that they can't
>>>> afford to hire IT people, so they spend thousands of hours
>>>> foregoing business opportunities worth many tens of thousands of
>>>> dollars (or possibly hundreds
>>>> of thousands of dollars per year) while they learn to build their
>>>> own computer network with disparate, outdated equipment -- picked
>>>> it up "real cheap!" -- and build a mission-critical Access database
>>>> application that they intend to run their entire business with, but
>>>> it just doesn't work. You want to help these people, too, but you can't
>>>> afford to pay for
>>>> the minimum equipment required (they aren't willing to pay to
>>>> replace their bargain equipment that doesn't work together), and
>>>> you can't afford to spend
>>>> two weeks or more fixing their multiple computer, network, virus,
>>>> and spam problems before even starting on a database application,
>>>> and the $100 for your time doesn't even begin to cover the gasoline
>>>> bill for the daily trips
>>>> to their office for an entire month. ("Hey, it took me more than
>>>> 2,000 hours and I still can't get it to work, but this is easy for
>>>> you experts. You can finish my application in a few days, because
>>>> it's more than 95% done! If you don't want the job, I can hire a
>>>> high school dropout for half
>>>> that price!") And they require you to come to their office daily
>>>> to do the
>>>> software development on your own laptop, even after you've fixed
>>>> their computer and network problems (at no charge, because the
>>>> owner isn't willing
>>>> to pay you to fix the problems he doesn't believe he created that
>>>> prevent Microsoft Office from being installed on each of his
>>>> computers and a database from being networked). This is because
>>>> even though they can't spare one of their own computers and desks
>>>> for you to work on, they refuse to pay you for all the hours you'd
>>>> be wasting in front of the T.V. or on the
>>>> phone talking to your kids instead of working on their application
>>>> if the manager wasn't there watching you like a hawk. And you try
>>>> to explain to the owner that this working arrangement means that,
>>>> for tax purposes, you are a temporary employee of his and he's
>>>> required by law to pay half the Social Security taxes on the money
>>>> you earn from him, but he refuses because
>>>> you're a "professional consultant," not one of his employees.
>>>>
>>>> So it's rather difficult to make a steady income if you're a
>>>> consultant looking for customers, and you only work with Access. But
>>>> perhaps others have had more favorable business experiences
>>>> working with Access in their geographical locations.
>>>>
>>>> HTH.
>>>> Gunny
>>>>
>>>> See
http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs.
>>>> See
http://www.Access.QBuilt.com for Microsoft Access tips and
>>>> tutorials.
>>>>
http://www.Access.QBuilt.com/html/ex...ributors2.html for
>>>> contact info.
>>>>> Hey that was great information.........
>>>>>
>>>> [quoted text clipped - 94 lines]
>>>>>>>>> mdb
>>>>>>>>> created on Access 2003 (default 2000)...
>>>
>>> --
>>> Message posted via
http://www.accessmonster.com[/color][/color]
>
>[/color]
