One disadvantage of designing with CSS and without tables appears to
be that selecting specific block of text from a web page to copy and
paste, or in order for it to be read by a text-to-speech programme is
very difficult. My own website www.webswonder.co.uk is an example.

Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to overcome this please?

Thanks,

Jeremy

"Jeremy Clulow" <jeremy@webswonder.net> wrote in message
news:ee7b77ef.0409271110.16b3476d@posting.google.c om...[color=blue]
> One disadvantage of designing with CSS and without tables appears to
> be that selecting specific block of text from a web page to copy and
> paste, or in order for it to be read by a text-to-speech programme is
> very difficult.[/color]

It isn't normally difficult in the slightest.
[color=blue]
> My own website www.webswonder.co.uk is an example.
> Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to overcome this please?[/color]

Go to

http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=ht...swonder.co.uk/

and find all the errors in your page's code. Fix them and see if that helps.

In message <ee7b77ef.0409271110.16b3476d@posting.google.com >, Jeremy
Clulow <jeremy@webswonder.net> writes[color=blue]
>One disadvantage of designing with CSS and without tables appears to
>be that selecting specific block of text from a web page to copy and
>paste, or in order for it to be read by a text-to-speech programme is
>very difficult. My own website www.webswonder.co.uk is an example.
>
>Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to overcome this please?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Jeremy[/color]

Why do you think there's a problem with text-to-speech programmes? I've
listened to some of your pages and they seem just fine. (I'm assuming
that you're referring to screen-readers, talking browsers, etc.)

Except for the 'skip to xxxxx' links, of course -- and they're quite
*invisible*.

'shortcuts' is styled 'visibility:hidden' in the CSS. Most
screen-readers and talking browsers will respect this and not speak the
contents.

Use CSS to simply position the links off of the screen; then they'll
work OK.

regards.

--
Jake

Jeremy Clulow wrote:
[color=blue]
> Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to overcome this please?[/color]

Don't do as much absolute positioning?

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact

Hi,

Jeremy Clulow wrote:[color=blue]
> One disadvantage of designing with CSS and without tables appears to
> be that selecting specific block of text from a web page to copy and
> paste, or in order for it to be read by a text-to-speech programme is
> very difficult. My own website www.webswonder.co.uk is an example.[/color]
This Problem exists if you use elements with absolute positioning and
the Internet Explorer. It's a kind of Bug in the IE.
[color=blue]
> Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to overcome this please?[/color]
Use, if possible, relative positioning and use a Browser instead of IE
(e.g. http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/).


hth Chris

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 15:18:25 -0400, in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets "Harlan Messinger"
<h.messinger@comcast.net> wrote:
[color=blue]
>|
>| "Jeremy Clulow" <jeremy@webswonder.net> wrote in message
>| news:ee7b77ef.0409271110.16b3476d@posting.google.c om...
>| > One disadvantage of designing with CSS and without tables appears to
>| > be that selecting specific block of text from a web page to copy and
>| > paste, or in order for it to be read by a text-to-speech programme is
>| > very difficult.
>|
>| It isn't normally difficult in the slightest.
>|
>| > My own website www.webswonder.co.uk is an example.
>| > Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to overcome this please?
>|
>| Go to
>|
>| http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=ht...swonder.co.uk/
>|
>| and find all the errors in your page's code. Fix them and see if that helps.[/color]

Here's a useful little tool that I stumbled across.
http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com/tech/adesigner

---------------------------------------------------------------
jnorth@yourpantsbigpond.net.au : Remove your pants to reply
---------------------------------------------------------------

jake <jake@gododdin.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
[color=blue]
> Why do you think there's a problem with text-to-speech programmes? I've
> listened to some of your pages and they seem just fine. (I'm assuming
> that you're referring to screen-readers, talking browsers, etc.)[/color]

I was referring to test to speech programmes which involve selecting
the text first. I can't select the text, so they are difficul to use.
[color=blue]
>
> Except for the 'skip to xxxxx' links, of course -- and they're quite
> *invisible*.
>
> 'shortcuts' is styled 'visibility:hidden' in the CSS. Most
> screen-readers and talking browsers will respect this and not speak the
> contents.
>
> Use CSS to simply position the links off of the screen; then they'll
> work OK.[/color]

Thanks for your help

Jeremy

Chris Leipold <cleipold@dietzk.de> wrote in message news:<2rsg1pF1breihU1@uni-berlin.de>...
[color=blue]
> This Problem exists if you use elements with absolute positioning and
> the Internet Explorer. It's a kind of Bug in the IE.[/color]

Ah ha! Thanks Chris. I've tried it in Firefox and selection of text blocks fine.
Good old Microsoft.
[color=blue]
>[color=green]
> > Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to overcome this please?[/color]
> Use, if possible, relative positioning and use a Browser instead of IE
> (e.g. http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/).
>
>
> hth Chris[/color]

In message <ee7b77ef.0409280220.689c6807@posting.google.com >, Jeremy
Clulow <jeremy@webswonder.net> writes
[snip]
[color=blue]
>I was referring to test to speech programmes which involve selecting
>the text first. I can't select the text, so they are difficul to use.
>[color=green]
>>[/color][/color]
[snip]
[color=blue]
>
>Jeremy[/color]

Thanks for that. I see now what you mean (well, in MSIE that is).

regards.
--
Jake

On 27 Sep 2004 12:10:58 -0700, Jeremy Clulow <jeremy@webswonder.net> wrote:
[color=blue]
> One disadvantage of designing with CSS and without tables appears to
> be that selecting specific block of text from a web page to copy and
> paste, or in order for it to be read by a text-to-speech programme is
> very difficult. My own website www.webswonder.co.uk is an example.
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to overcome this please?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jeremy[/color]


I can select all text on this page - except "Accessibility" which isn't
even rendered on my Opera.

Toby Inkster <usenet200409@tobyinkster.co.uk> wrote in message news:<pan.2004.09.27.22.00.56.266314@tobyinkster.c o.uk>...[color=blue]
> Jeremy Clulow wrote:
>[color=green]
> > Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to overcome this please?[/color]
>
> Don't do as much absolute positioning?[/color]

Patient to Doctor: Doctor, it hurts when I do this....
Doctor to Patient: Well don't do that then......

I'm glad the use of positioning CSS isn't the problem and that it's a
Microsoft tease. I'll just recommend everyone to use Firefox and Opera
even more now....

Thanks,

Jeremy

Jeff North <jnorth@yourpantsbigpond.net.au> wrote in message news:<d56il09ld2am86mu18su8ekn7igmmb1uh6@4ax.com>. ..
[color=blue]
> Here's a useful little tool that I stumbled across.
> http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com/tech/adesigner[/color]

Wow! that is useful. Thanks

Jeremy

Chris Leipold wrote:
[color=blue][color=green]
>> be that selecting specific block of text from a web page to copy and
>> paste, or in order for it to be read by a text-to-speech programme is
>> very difficult. My own website www.webswonder.co.uk is an example.[/color][/color]
[color=blue]
> This Problem exists if you use elements with absolute positioning and
> the Internet Explorer. It's a kind of Bug in the IE.[/color]

IIRC: Only IE6/Win has problems, and then only in Standards mode, and only
with some code. Not all sites based around positioning will have this
problem in IE. I haven't yet seen a decent analysis of the problem which
explains what exactly triggers it.


--
David Dorward <http://blog.dorward.me.uk/> <http://dorward.me.uk/>
Home is where the ~/.bashrc is

On 27 Sep 2004 12:10:58 -0700, jeremy@webswonder.net (Jeremy Clulow)
wrote:
[color=blue]
>One disadvantage of designing with CSS and without tables appears to
>be that selecting specific block of text from a web page to copy and
>paste, or in order for it to be read by a text-to-speech programme is
>very difficult. My own website www.webswonder.co.uk is an example.
>
>Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to overcome this please?[/color]

Mozilla selects, no problem.

MSIE, hmpf...

But basically its your fault Jeremy. A few years back when our lines
last crossed in Swansea you did produce much better markup as compared
to what this is an example of. What happened?

Or are you trying to pull our legs here with a demo of the hopless state
of MSIE? :-)


--
"Jan Roland Eriksson" <rex@css.nu>
www resourses @ <http://css.nu>

Jan Roland Eriksson <rex@css.nu> wrote in message news:<0tjjl0hqmdjs4v0p18of7cvunv9i3m3v8v@4ax.com>. ..[color=blue]
> wrote:
>
> Mozilla selects, no problem.
>
> MSIE, hmpf...
>
> But basically its your fault Jeremy. A few years back when our lines
> last crossed in Swansea you did produce much better markup as compared
> to what this is an example of. What happened?[/color]

Roland, great to hear from you.

I honestly thought my Webs Wonder website code was ok. I've fiddled
around with it a bit now and it validates XHTML and CSS, plus using
that excellent tool recommended to me "IBM aDesigner" I reckon the
site should get at least a double AA WCAG label.

I know the answer may depress me, but could you explain why the code
has offended you so much?
[color=blue]
> Or are you trying to pull our legs here with a demo of the hopless state
> of MSIE? :-)[/color]

Well that's gone right over my head. I don't think I'm doing this work
for laughs, but if I achieve a muffed titter somewhere, I suppose that
is some small compensation ;-) Could you explain? In what way am I
pulling your leg? My post was a genuine question resulting from a
genuine accessibility issue as I saw.

All the best, Jeremy

On 29 Sep 2004 03:12:30 -0700, jeremy@webswonder.net (Jeremy Clulow)
wrote:
[color=blue]
>Jan Roland Eriksson <rex@css.nu> wrote in message news:<0tjjl0hqmdjs4v0p18of7cvunv9i3m3v8v@4ax.com>. ..[color=green]
>> wrote:
>> Mozilla selects, no problem.
>> MSIE, hmpf...[/color][/color]
[color=blue][color=green]
>> ...A few years back...you did produce much better markup...[/color][/color]
[color=blue]
>Roland, great to hear from you.[/color]
[color=blue]
>I honestly thought my Webs Wonder website code was ok...[/color]

It's fixed now but it was not "well formed" (valid) a few days back.

[...]
[color=blue]
>I know the answer may depress me, but could you explain why the code
>has offended you so much?[/color]

I'm not "offended" as you put it, just surprised for a while that your
main page did not pass the validator.

And I might ask my self what's the point of XHTML1.0

I know you do this for a living so let me assume that "it's good for
business" to have a few X-Buzzwords included these days, but basically
it's still today less work involved to build a website with a good
"pragmatic" markup if you use HTML4.01
[color=blue][color=green]
>> Or are you trying to pull our legs here with a demo of the hopless state
>> of MSIE? :-)[/color][/color]
[color=blue]
>Well that's gone right over my head...[/color]

It never occured to me that not every one was updated on the MSIE text
selection behaviour when you use CSS to position sections away from
where they should have been if rendered as per natural logic flow.
Hence I assuemd that you tried to give me a trick demo :-)

MSIE is not the only browser that gets into trouble with positioned
content but I think it can be labelled as the one with the worst
behaviour when it sometimes does not allow for any kind of text
highlight and selection at all.

P.S.
I did get your mail, but my spam trap ate the content since I did not
have your domain in my local "approved domains" list, sorry about that.
You may want to resend it if you had other items of importance in it.

All the best...

--
"Jan Roland Eriksson" <rex@css.nu>
www resourses @ <http://css.nu>

Jan Roland Eriksson <rex@css.nu> wrote in message news:<stjrl0d0enmmthvbfv406cdhttioo9s9sr@4ax.com>. ..[color=blue][color=green]
> >I honestly thought my Webs Wonder website code was ok...[/color]
>
> It's fixed now but it was not "well formed" (valid) a few days back.
>
> [...]
>[color=green]
> >I know the answer may depress me, but could you explain why the code
> >has offended you so much?[/color]
>
> I'm not "offended" as you put it, just surprised for a while that your
> main page did not pass the validator.
>
> And I might ask my self what's the point of XHTML1.0
>
> I know you do this for a living so let me assume that "it's good for
> business" to have a few X-Buzzwords included these days, but basically
> it's still today less work involved to build a website with a good
> "pragmatic" markup if you use HTML4.01
>[color=green][color=darkred]
> >> Or are you trying to pull our legs here with a demo of the hopless state
> >> of MSIE? :-)[/color][/color]
>[color=green]
> >Well that's gone right over my head...[/color]
>
> It never occured to me that not every one was updated on the MSIE text
> selection behaviour when you use CSS to position sections away from
> where they should have been if rendered as per natural logic flow.
> Hence I assuemd that you tried to give me a trick demo :-)
>
> MSIE is not the only browser that gets into trouble with positioned
> content but I think it can be labelled as the one with the worst
> behaviour when it sometimes does not allow for any kind of text
> highlight and selection at all.
>
> P.S.
> I did get your mail, but my spam trap ate the content since I did not
> have your domain in my local "approved domains" list, sorry about that.
> You may want to resend it if you had other items of importance in it.
>
> All the best...[/color]

Hi Roland,

Well that's what NG's are all about - learnining something, and I
learnt something, so thanks.

I used "Extreme Tracking" on my site, an excellent tool, but it was
their code which caused most of the validation problems. A put
fictitious example below. I asked them about it's lack of validation
and was told it was in order to cater for Netscape 3 users, but that
it would be revised at some point in the future.

<a target="_top" href="http://t.extreme-dm.com/?login=foo123">
<img src="http://u1.extreme-dm.com/i.gif" height=38
border=0 width=41 alt=""></a><script language="javascript1.2"><!--
EXs=screen;EXw=EXs.width;navigator.appName!="Netsc ape"?
EXb=EXs.colorDepth:EXb=EXs.pixelDepth;//-->
</script><script language="javascript"><!--
EXd=document;EXw?"":EXw="na";EXb?"":EXb="na";
EXd.write("<img src=\"http://t0.extreme-dm.com",
"/0.gif?tag=foo123&j=y&srw="+EXw+"&srb="+EXb+"&",
"l="+escape(EXd.referrer)+"\" height=1 width=1>");//-->
</script><noscript><img height=1 width=1 alt=""
src="http://t0.extreme-dm.com/0.gif?tag=foo123&j=n"></noscript>

All the best,

Jeremy