IE Scrollbars

#1 July 20th, 2005, 05:29 PM

I've been trying to tweak the design of a few pages in one of my ASP apps...

I'm making sure that the layout is reasonable for resolutions between
800x600 and 1024x768. Since it's almost all forms (rather than text) it
takes a bit of extra effort to find the right balance.

At the higher resolution, everything is fine. When I reduce the IE window to
800x600 (via bookmarklet), I'm getting both horizontal and vertical
scrollbars; the vertical scrollbars are to be expected since the forms are
longer than the screen, however the forms should be narrow enough to fit
into you typical 800x600 browser window.

Having puzzled over what was taking up the extra horizontal space, after
testing in Mozilla and Opera, I've just realised that the content is how I
want it, but that IE has taken it upon itself to kindly at a horizontal
scrollbar! Mozilla and Opera only show each axis' scrollbar when necessary.
With IE it's all or nothing.

So the question is... can I do anything about this? Or is this a compulsory
IE 'feature'?

Thanks in advance

Chris

#2 July 20th, 2005, 05:30 PM

"CJM" <cjmwork@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
[color=blue]
>At the higher resolution, everything is fine. When I reduce the IE window to
>800x600 (via bookmarklet), I'm getting both horizontal and vertical
>scrollbars; the vertical scrollbars are to be expected since the forms are
>longer than the screen, however the forms should be narrow enough to fit
>into you typical 800x600 browser window.
>
>Having puzzled over what was taking up the extra horizontal space, after
>testing in Mozilla and Opera, I've just realised that the content is how I
>want it, but that IE has taken it upon itself to kindly at a horizontal
>scrollbar! Mozilla and Opera only show each axis' scrollbar when necessary.
>With IE it's all or nothing.[/color]

Not usually, but in some circumstances.

There are also some bugs in the way IE calculates total page widths
that can cause horizontal scrollbars to appear unexpectedly.
[color=blue]
>So the question is... can I do anything about this? Or is this a compulsory
>IE 'feature'?[/color]

Are you using frames?
Are the pages within the frames using a doctype that triggers
standards mode?
If so then yes, it's all or nothing.

Otherwise post a URL.

Steve

--
"My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

Steve Pugh <steve@pugh.net> <http://steve.pugh.net/>

#3 July 20th, 2005, 05:30 PM

"Steve Pugh" <steve@pugh.net> wrote in message
news:u0hkqvccptfavn6bplbv74ogieain8hglo@4ax.com...[color=blue]
> Are you using frames?
> Are the pages within the frames using a doctype that triggers
> standards mode?
> If so then yes, it's all or nothing.[/color]

Yes, I'm using frames with the 4.01 Transitional DOCTYPE.
[color=blue]
> Otherwise post a URL.[/color]

It's an intranet app. At the moment, I can't even post a mock-up, since all
ftp traffic is currently blocked!

[sigh] I guess I will just have to endure it.

Cheers

Chris

#4 July 20th, 2005, 05:30 PM

"CJM" <cjmwork@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
[color=blue]
>
>"Steve Pugh" <steve@pugh.net> wrote in message
>news:u0hkqvccptfavn6bplbv74ogieain8hglo@4ax.com.. .[color=green]
>> Are you using frames?
>> Are the pages within the frames using a doctype that triggers
>> standards mode?
>> If so then yes, it's all or nothing.[/color]
>
>Yes, I'm using frames with the 4.01 Transitional DOCTYPE.[/color]

Which 4.01 Transtional Doctype?
Some trigger standards mode and some don't.

Steve

--
"My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

Steve Pugh <steve@pugh.net> <http://steve.pugh.net/>

#5 July 20th, 2005, 05:30 PM

"Steve Pugh" <steve@pugh.net> wrote in message
news:8ulkqvse7r4k6q0u6pgrleh6a5153atkbv@4ax.com...[color=blue][color=green]
> >
> >Yes, I'm using frames with the 4.01 Transitional DOCTYPE.[/color]
>
> Which 4.01 Transtional Doctype?
> Some trigger standards mode and some don't.[/color]

Sorry Steve, I should have been explicit:

With DTD - hence I am triggering Standards Mode

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">

#6 July 20th, 2005, 05:30 PM

"CJM" <cjmwork@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
[color=blue]
>"Steve Pugh" <steve@pugh.net> wrote in message
>news:8ulkqvse7r4k6q0u6pgrleh6a5153atkbv@4ax.com.. .[color=green][color=darkred]
>> >
>> >Yes, I'm using frames with the 4.01 Transitional DOCTYPE.[/color]
>>
>> Which 4.01 Transtional Doctype?
>> Some trigger standards mode and some don't.[/color]
>
>Sorry Steve, I should have been explicit:
>
>With DTD - hence I am triggering Standards Mode
>
><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"
>"http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">[/color]

Yeah that will do it.

In Standards mode IE6 treats scrolling="auto" as something that
switches between scrolling="yes" (both scrollbars visible) and
scrolling="no" (no scrollbars visible) as required.

In Quirks mode IE6 treats scrolling="auto" as if it was an unframed
page and includes each scrollbar separately as needed.

There isn't really anything in the spec to support this behaviour:
http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/present...adef-scrolling
so it just has to be put down as one of thise crazy MS things. Unless
anyone knows better?

In your case you can either learn to live with it, or drop the URI
from the doctype, thus triggering Quirks mode and all the other
changes that entails.

Steve

--
"My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

Steve Pugh <steve@pugh.net> <http://steve.pugh.net/>

#7 July 20th, 2005, 05:30 PM

"Steve Pugh" <steve@pugh.net> wrote in message
news:0onkqvk2o9f2ecke079mc6pcl71p8c06g3@4ax.com...
[color=blue]
> There isn't really anything in the spec to support this behaviour:
> http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/present...adef-scrolling
> so it just has to be put down as one of thise crazy MS things. Unless
> anyone knows better?[/color]

I'd be delighted if someone *did* know better, but I suspect not.
[color=blue]
>
> In your case you can either learn to live with it, or drop the URI
> from the doctype, thus triggering Quirks mode and all the other
> changes that entails.
>
> Steve
>[/color]

Seems to be two steps forwards and another backwards.

Going back to quirks mode would be a retrograde step, so we'll suffer the
Standards-mode 'quirks' (Irony?). The system will be replaced within 15mths,
so a no-frames re-write isnt justified.

If anything, it will serve as further justification for avoiding frames -
you wouldnt think I'd be short of ammo on that score, but you havent met my
bosses...!

Cheers

Chris

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